Projecting Drew Stubbs
Drew Stubbs' debut was one of the more pleasant surprises last year. Stubbs put up a respectable rookie line of 267/323/437 in 196 PAs to go along with 10 steals and terrific defense. Whether he can build upon that is a tricky question that centers on two issues in my mind - his ability to make contact and hit for power.
Making contact has been the biggest concern with Stubbs during his amateur and professional career. Stubbs hit .269 in the minors, which is decent but obviously not spectacular. Maintaining a .269 average in the majors would be fine given his above-average walk numbers (.364 OBP in the minors), but there's a strong possibility that he may not be able to make contact against major league pitching at the same rate. His minor league K-rate (~26%) is high, and suggests potential difficulty with making sufficient contact at the major league level.
Then again, Stubbs demonstrated better contact skills as he progressed through the minors, cutting his K-rate from over 30% in rookie ball to 25% in Louisville. Hopefully, this demonstrates that he can adjust to better pitching as he moves up the ladder. With the Reds last year Stubbs struck out in 27% of his plate appearances. If he can maintain or improve that and walk in 10% of his PAs, he should be able to get on base at an acceptable rate (330+ OBP). But if he can't (K-rate over 30%), he'll make too many outs to be a productive hitter.
One possible factor concerning Stubbs' contact ability is his height. Even though I follow our top prospects fairly closely, I didn't realize how tall Stubbs is when he came up. At 6'4" he'll be the tallest Red to patrol CF on a full-time basis. Is a hitter that tall less likely to make contact, given the expanded strike zone and longer swing? There are of course plenty of tall power hitters, but the tall burner is a much rarer athlete. This article on Usain Bolt got me thinking about why it's a rarity and the conventional wisdom on what is the ideal build for speed.
When Bolt first took up track, he suffered from tall man's maladies. For one thing, he ran as if he were wearing seven-league boots. His coach, Glen Mills, sped him up by shortening his stride. "Biomechanically, his body placement was not ideal for sprinting," Mills told the Jamaica Gleaner. "His head was back, his shoulders were well behind his center of gravity, this resulted in him spending too much time in the air and over-striding." Now, Mills says, "his length of stride is compatible with his height. One of the reasons he has such a long but efficient stride is because he lifts his knees so well."
Like track, we're starting to see more tall speedsters in baseball. No player as tall or taller than Stubbs stole 30 bases until 1976, but since then 11 players have done so, most recently Carlos Gomez and Alex Rios in 2008. Lower the standard to 6'3" and several others join the list, including B.J. Upton and Hanley Ramirez. This past year the Rockies' 6'4" CF Dexter Fowler stole five bases in one game (though he only finished with 27). Stolen bases aren't a perfect proxy for speed, but until bb-ref adds 40-yard dash times it will have to do.
So does any of this mean something for Stubbs? Is there a good reason most tall hitters rely on power rather than contact hitting? And is this the direction Stubbs is heading? Stubbs had always wowed scouts with his "light tower power," but mostly slugged in the low 400s as a minor leaguer (and quite a bit lower than that in Louisville last year). Was Stubbs' power surge in Cincinnati a mirage, or does it signal the arrival of a well-rounded hitter?
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I think Stubbs will continue to strike out a lot but I also think he'll improve his walk rate and get it around 10%.
I’m also higher on his power than most. I’m not saying 25 HR, but 15-20 is very possible. If he can combine that with a .260 average and .330-.340 OBP with GG defense, he’s alright with me.
Even if he puts up .250/.330/.400, with his defense I’ll take it. At those rates he’d still be a 2 WAR player, assuming the great D.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
Cameron's career line is
.250/.340/.448. if Stubbs can match that, or even just come close, i will be ecstatic. with his D, he’d be one of the best CFs in the game.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 29, 2010 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
I'll take that as well
The power is a real mystery to me. He went from a 360 SLG in Louisville to 439 in Cincinnati. I suppose that can be explained by a small sample size, but I also thought there was some story about Stubbs changing his approach before ’09 to make more contact at the expense of extra base hits.
Power truly is the mystery at this point
and I remember reading an interview with him after he came up to the Reds (can’t remember where, too lazy to look) where he basically said he was encouraged to take walks, make contact, and get on base for L’ville last season, and it affected his approach, but that he definitely felt like he could hit for power.
Of course, all ballplayers are super confident in their own abilities, but it’s worth noting anyway.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
I should be reading the Jamaica Gleaner more often
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Jan 29, 2010 11:40 AM EST reply actions
It's Jamaican me crazy!
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
Yabbit
Stubbs plays center, which means he leads off.
No matter what on his speed, he won’t steal unless the count is 1-2 and there are two outs.
And … w.t.f. … this is all so absurd.
Can we just get a good manager first and stop trying to find players who will work inside a system that is designed to fail?
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
by johnu1 on Jan 29, 2010 11:49 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd...
rec’d rec’d rec’d rec’d REC’D.
I’ve spent the last few weeks scouring over 2010 and potential 2011 FA’s for this year’s budget and for the extra $$ we’ll have off the books for 2011, but I’ve yet to begin my search for 2011’s manager. It might deserve its own fanshot/post, but I don’t currently have the time to delve into one.
Who’s out there, other than the usuals? Bobby Valentine? Larry Bowa? Clint Hurdle?
Set the gearshift to the high gear of your soul.
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Jan 29, 2010 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
Dusty Baker?
Kevin, there won’t be extra money for 2011, just money to sign arbitration eligible players. Remember the winter of ‘08-’09?
I suppose this is as good as time as any to dust off the anti-anti-Baker arguments:
1) He’s not that bad; 2) His players love him, his teams never give up; 3) and line-ups are just not that freaking important to run scoring. Whatever problem folks have with Dusty’s line-ups, the problem is who he put in it, not where they batted. Taveras and Patterson were mistakes. Turning Arthur Rhodes from a LOOGY to one of the best set-up men in the NL was a good idea. Finding a place for Nick Massett was a good move. Continuing to run Jay Bruce out to right to figure his swing out was a good idea. letting Chris Dickerson out of the doghouse and into the outfield rotation was an excellent idea. It’s a mixed bag, colored by the black holes of production from his team “CF’s”.
Dusty’s over-paid for being an average manager, but no manager wins with the teams Dusty received his first two years. We’ll see this year how he does, I’m betting the team only lets him go if they really, truly are over-budget. Otherwise, they re-sign him in ST.
Personally, I only believe the first paragraph. Paragraphs 2 is an intellectual exercise, because I’m annoyed by the idea that smart people really would believe a manager holds a team back. Let him go, let him stay, it won’t significantly improve the team. And, certainly, whether Drew Stubbs steals 25 bases or 40 ain’t gonna help that much in the win department. After all, what is Joe Torre’s contribution to strategy? Absolutely none, he’s a terrible tactician. Why has Pinnella won so much? He hasn’t. Their job is mainly a behind the scenes job of keeping people together, which is why Sweet Lou can’t win anymore and why Torre can.
Paragraph 3 is true. He is way over-paid and I think he will be re-signed.
Arb raises won't take the entire amount.
Assume 36 mil comes of the books from Harang, Arroyo, Taveras (yay!), Rhodes, Lincoln, and Ramon.
Arb raises are due to Votto, Cueto, Volquez, Owings for the first time. 1st year arb is rarely that much, even for a player like Votto. (it’s not like any of these guys are Ryan Howard or Tim Lincecum.) I’d guess the total for all 4 would be around $10 mil max, but probably lower. If Cueto has a monster season, it could be more like $11-12. Second year arb guys are Burton and Masset, but Masset’s money is already locked in, and Burton won’t get much more than $1 mil or so. So assume a max of $14 mil for all those guys, minus what they already made this year, and you have a $11-12 mil increase at the most. Now figure $4 million buyouts for the two starters and BP’s $4 mil raise, and you have a salary increase of $20 mil but $36 mil coming off the books.
That’s a solid $16 mil to work with next offseason, assuming no budget cuts or increases.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
Of course the thing I'm not factoring is the money it takes to replace the guys who leave
OTOH, Taveras, Rhodes, Lincoln are all easily replaceable by league minimum guys. Ramon could be trickier, so say we spend $3 mil on a catcher.
Also assume that some of the young pitchers step up and can take the rotation spots. So maybe we need to fill a rotation spot, and we have $13 mil to do it. (Or 6 mil and 7 mil on a good SS)
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
Yeah, I know, I'm just telling us what Fay will be telling us come September
In other words, the spin from the owner and the club as to why they ain’t spending that money
all you say, Tim, may be true but ...
… the nature of the sports blog or sports forum is to discuss baseball and how the team can benefit or would not benefit by having or not having various personnel in place.
We, as fans, can only evaluate what we see and what we know to be the results of various practices.
From that thinking, only we — as fans — can say that retaining or replacing the manager is a good or bad idea. To simply say that it doesn’t matter would defeat the purpose of this entire forum. Hell no, it doesn’t matter if Drew Stubbs or Drew Brees plays center field for the Reds.
We just discuss his potential to contribute.
As fans we can say Baker is/isn’t a good manager because it makes US feel good, as fans. To dismiss our beliefs as unimportant defeats the purpose of having a fan base in the first place.
Fans being something that blows. (If I knew how to insert a photo here, I’d do that.)
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
Click on the picture of the tree between the subject line and message body
Enter the URL of the photo, and hit OK. Max size for a pic in most threads is 60K, justsoyaknow.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
jch
I figured out the part about the little tree but the URL … these pictures are on my hard drive. I have no real compelling need to post a photo just that I wanted to know how, brown cow, not precisely why.
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
Ah, then you'll need a hosting service
I use Photobucket myself. Go there, create an account, and upload a pic. When you’re viewing the pic at Photobucket there will be a “Direct Link” URL. That’s what you’ll paste in the pop up box.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
welll that solves it.
Doesn’t seem that a man my age needs to be in a quandary about this.
tx
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
John has a point but
so does Tim…I like Baker in a lot of ways too..But I believe that manager does have a quantifiable impact on a teams won/lost record. A manager can’t help it when top players are sidelined or out for the season with injuries or when a player his a bad streak (happens to pitchers as well as hitters). But just like in any business how the players are ‘managed’ not only behind the scenes but also how the games are managed is what the job is all about. Someone has to be in charge and make the daily decisions. Dusty makes some pretty stupid moves at times, and because his margin for error (because of the players he’s been dealt) is so small, his goofs could easily translate into 3 – 5 losses a year…
I’d rather have Dudsy than Bobby Valentine, Larry Bowa, Clint Hurdle or most of the old guard baseball guys out there. I’d rather have a (yet to be discovered) young imaginative guy in charge…but Duds is what we got and I wish him luck. But then I’m just a fan

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
ok
so managers dont affect the game much one way or another. why pay one $4 mil when you can get someone else to do it for 1/8 of that?
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 29, 2010 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
my point is ...
we spend a lot of time analyzing Dusty’s lineups and the way he uses his hitters, pitchers, all that. Anybody who was ever around sports will tell you that a team’s confidence or lack thereof depends on whether they have that in their leadership.
Players will not assume anything. They ain’t wired that way.
I admit that the manager can’t hit the curve ball or turn the pivot at second. Players need to toe their own line about some success or failure. But if 5 wins a year is what the manager is worth, let’s go from 78 wins to 88 wins, the 5 he lost and the other 5 he didn’t win. That’s 10.
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
Leadership in sports generally comes from the players on the field more than the manager in the dugout.
Tactical direction comes from the Manager in the dugout. Managerial decisions that are consistently terrible do affect the moral of a team negatively and also don’t create wins and those managers eventually get fired. With a team like the Reds (young and talented) one of Dusty’s behind the scenes jobs is to find the on the field leaders and work to help them grow into their roles. If he can do that, put a sensible line up on the field, handle the pitching staff and know when to bitch out the umps then he’ll be more successful in 2010. This is a lot to hope for from a guy who is basically a by the book manager.
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
because the owner said to...
Ask Bob. It may shock you that you know more about baseball than he does.
it really doesn't
just because he knows a lot about selling produce means he knows anything about a baseball team.
by justin007000 on Jan 29, 2010 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
i'd thank you
if i thought that was much of a compliment :)
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 29, 2010 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
ahhh shucks
i think youre smart too, timbo!
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 29, 2010 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
I know I'm all for a big fat group hug here.
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
Why don't you 4 guys just go ahead and get a room
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
well that said
.. I get back to my premise. If the players and the management likes Baker, I am OK with that. But if we simply say we have no concept of an opinion because it’a already been decided, then we’re not fans.
Fans are allowed to discuss the relative value of the team and its leadership.
To say that Dusty is liked by the players is one thing.
I just think he makes poor managing decisions at times.
Not like I don’t have annoying habits of my own.
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
I get it, John
Defending Dusty is a bit of intellectual exercise for me too. I really don’t care about one way or another. I like how he protects his players (I’m looking at you Brandon Phillips) and I like how they are loyal to him, but I hate his old-school choices and his refusal to change line-ups or tactics.
So, go ahead and argue about his short-comings, just remember he’s no Ray Knight
allow me to agree
Ray Knight or Larry Bowa.
I think I swarmed over this topic a bit more than necessary but the notion that Stubbs is our man in CF is no more likely than C-Pat was, or The Virus or any of a dozen “speedy” guys.
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
Stubbykins
Once you made reference to Stubbs’ height, Corey Hart instantly popped in my head. His early stats seem roughly in-line with Hart’s, who I believe came up as a CF for the Brewers initially. Their K/BB % are roughly similar, and obviously Hart developed some more pop when he became a regular in the lineup.
If Stubbs gets to that level, color me satisfied.
Set the gearshift to the high gear of your soul.
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Jan 29, 2010 12:00 PM EST reply actions
Interesting comp
Similar build, and Hart has some speed. He looks like he should be playing small forward for the Badgers (though he’s actually from Ky.; didn’t know that). Hart did have a different minor league hitting profile. Much better average and slugging (300/350/500). But except for 2007, that hasn’t translated to good major league performance.
Looks like he's from KY
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
I think
he was a 3B in the minors, got moved to 1st and was moved to RF because of Prince. There are some brew fans who think he should play more than the odd game in CF, but I don’t think so. He plays pretty good defense, but doesn’t move back on balls very gracefully. Of course there are fans who see Braun moving to CF.
wow, I had no idea Hart was 6'6"
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
Baseball Prospectus has their PECOTA projections up
and they project the Reds to finish second in the NL Central at 82-80, scoring 780 runs and allowing 772.
You need a subscription to view individual players.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
I'd like to see the whole team
but I try to respect paywalls, so don’t worry about it.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
I deleted it, tim. I really don't think it's a good idea to post that stuff
sorry if I was confusing in my post. I meant that I’d love to see the whole team, but I’d rather not post large amounts of stuff that are behind a paywall.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
The Reds scoring 780?
No. Way. In. Hell.
by Highlifeman21 on Jan 29, 2010 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
And why not? With RBI guys like Jannish, Hanigan and Dickerson ?
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
...all in the bench
Janish is this year’s Ryan Hanigan.
by Brian B on Jan 29, 2010 2:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Just think
Janish, Hanigan, Dickerson & Stubbs will most likely appear in the same starting lineup many times this year.
That’s definitely 780 R territory right there…
by Highlifeman21 on Jan 30, 2010 8:42 AM EST up reply actions
it involves Bruce channeling his inner Albert Belle
so yeah, I mean, if that happens then sure.
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
I'd give him a shiny new nickel if he's pull a Belle on Skip Schumaker
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
I think they projected 82 wins for the Reds last year too
so…79 wins, here we come!!!!
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
c'mon, Slyde, don't you know injuries were COMPLETELY to blame for last year's problems?
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
looks like they realized their foolishness
That link now goes to a Reds team that is 81-81, scoring 726 runs and allow 730.
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
As long as Stubbs continues to be our leadoff hitter, I only care about his OBP
I’d rather see his MLB OBP mirror or improve upon his MiLB OBP numbers. The power is kinda like an added bonus.
I’ll learn to love Stubbs if he learns (or remembers) how to find 1B like he did in the minors.
so this ought to work
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
It didn't work
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
Say you google image search "johnu1"
The third result is a picture of a cow, from this site no less. Click on the pic, then click on “See Full Size Image”. You should see only the picture in question, out of context. At that point, copy the URL, come back here, click the tree, and paste it in. Should be good.
"They're the ones that gave you the keys, they can’t get upset when you crash the car" -- 'tHan on my being a mod
OK

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
whoa!
My cow pitcher.
Carry on.
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
one thing I know about Stubbs
he is smoking fast- like Chris Henry reincarnate.
In fact I wouldnt mind him being the Bengals deep threat in the fall.
I am worried that the Reds will have Drew focus so much on dropping his K rates that he will lose all his power.
Dickerson dramatically drop his K rate in 2009 but also loss all his power and became a less interesting player- but still pretty interesting to me.
I have a feeling the Stubbs is goping to continue to hit the long ball
His comfort/confidence level was high once he was in the line up and began to be productive. He tried the less power more OBP thing in the minors but I think he’s decided to go with his own ‘gameplan’ and not worry about it.
Besides nobody even knows the name of the new hitting coach.
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
so does this mean ....
… Small Ball is a fig newton of our imagination?
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
Stubbs is still the only player I can remember seeing beat a routine groundball right at the shortstop
and he did it twice. He’s sneaky fast…for a white guy.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
I knew such a guy back home
the only way we knew he was in town was after he left.
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
Eric Davis, Cesar Geronimo, and Gus Bell ain't bad company
I guess what Ken’s BBRef chart shows is that the thoroughbred athletes can cut it in CF. If Stubbs can hit better than Chief, and I see no reason why he cannot, then yeah, he’s very alright with me. I like the Cameron reference.
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
Geronimo was a pretty decent player - check it out.
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
Teh Fay sez
The Reds have an offer out to Cabrera. Jocketty doesn’t expect anything tonight, but should know in a day or two. Also, the Reds offered Gomes a minor-league deal.
My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts
What happened to the link
My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts
by cesarhernandez on Jan 29, 2010 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
well I do know this
Josh Frogg has signed with the Mets and Eric Byrnes is a Mariner.
Not sure which of these breaks my heart the most.
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
by johnu1 on Jan 29, 2010 9:37 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
rec'd
"Just seeing him in uniform makes me throw up." Jack Clark on Mark McGwire's new coaching job
by PeteyHendrix on Jan 30, 2010 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
SLYDE UPDATE
Slyde is off to Red’s fantasy camp tomorrow…[and he didn’t take me as his personal valet…
Hopefully he’ll keep us informed…maybe he’ll get his chops back and end up as the new Red’s SS.
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
I'd take Slyde over OCab
range couldn’t be worse and Slyde would probably play for a bucket of balls.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
so what if OCab becomes our second baseman?
Does that mean BP gets to bat second?
That would move Slyde down to the fifth spot.
I don’t like this, Dusty. Not one bit.
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
Yeah
He can hold the job until they finally notice me.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
Crolfs you seem to be otherwise occupied
chasing Lady Bugs
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980

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