Petey's New Stat Corner: ED'S OPS
Howdy, gang! It's your old pal Petey, here to share another RR-exclusive stat for you to use and share with your friends!
Today's stat is ED'S OPS, which stands for EveryDay Starter On-base Plus Slugging. For a review of what OPS is, please visit here.
My concept here is to arrive at a stat that will help you when determining your starting lineup, and whom you should acquire for said job. The league averages are not relevant in their entirety, as the numbers are diluted by the call-ups, defensive replacements, and bench scrubs. I do not feel that it’s entirely relevant to compare Adam Dunn’s offensive numbers, for instance, to the league average within the discussion of who will be in your daily lineup, especially when that league average includes EVERYONE who ever put on a glove in the outfield that year. Laynce Nix is not the standard for MLB starting outfielders…he’s weaker than that. But if you do a search for the most "league-average offensive left fielder," Laynce Nix is whom you find (according to MLB Network). Laynce is a minor leaguer and bench fodder...not a very good benchmark.
What is most relevant, if you buy into my methodology/philosophy, is how Adam Dunn compares to the 20 starting left fielders in MLB. It doesn’t matter much to me how much better Adam Dunn is vs. Laynce Nix, but it is highly relevant to me how El Burro compares to Matt Holliday. I ran the numbers of “starting” position players since the beginning of 2000 (looking for a large, relevant sample size). I defined starters as those players who qualified for leaderboard stats, i.e. 502 PA/year.
Results and methodology after the break....
I took each SEASON of a qualifying position player (who played 50% or more of their games at a single position) and created a spreadsheet that listed the OPS stats for each qualifying season - thanks, baseballreference.com! (And a hat tip to Slyde for guidance). So if 20 players qualified for the batting title at a given position, I’d enter each of those 20 OPS averages into a column for that position for that year. Some seasons had more qualifiers than others, of course, due to injuries, platoons, and assorted whatnot. :P
What I found was that the numbers held pretty true over the decade. There were, on average, 20 position players who qualified for the batting title for each season at each position. For catcher, I needed to lower the qualifying plate appearances to 400 to achieve an average of 19.3 qualifying catchers per year.
Here are the “starting position players” average OPS that I found:
C 761
1B 876
2B 779
SS 753
3B 848
RF 840
CF 780
LF 859
DH 893
So when I evaluate players specifically in a starting capacity, I look to these offensive benchmarks rather than to “league averages” in making my judgments (along with tons of other stats, as we all do). But I find that these averages are highly useful in evaluating talent, and much more-so than using offensive averages by league or position, because those numbers include Juan Castro’s offensive stats, and no one wants to judge much of anything by that Oro Standard. To be fair, Slyde has taken issue with this methodology in the past.
This also gives you a quantifiable look at the offensive trade-off for defense at a given position, such as CF vs. LF, or SS vs. 3B. If you were thinking about Edwin Encarnacion as a starting left fielder, this shows how his career OPS of .790 is significantly below the threshold of an everyday starter in left field (.859).
You may now rip apart my methodology or philosophy, and/or you can constructively suggest how I might fine-tune these numbers. Enjoy!
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Laynce Nix is not bench fodder damn it Pete...he's a reserve OF, PH specialist.
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
11th place on our depth charts, #1 in our hearts.
"Just seeing him in uniform makes me throw up." Jack Clark on Mark McGwire's new coaching job
by PeteyHendrix on Jan 21, 2010 7:43 PM EST up reply actions
you'll see...#5 on Mads depth Chart #4 in my heart.
Bruce, Stumps, Frazier – Laynce
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
And he could be a stunt double for Josh Hamilton
Laynce Nix

Josh Hamilton

Get rid of Josh’s smile, and those pictures are mirror images
by Highlifeman21 on Jan 21, 2010 9:30 PM EST up reply actions
What's going on in the background behind Hamilton?
Is that a Trapper Keeper cover?
Calmer than you are.
by 3 Fast 3 Furious on Jan 22, 2010 9:48 AM EST up reply actions
a FUTURISTIC Trapper Keeper cover!
"Just seeing him in uniform makes me throw up." Jack Clark on Mark McGwire's new coaching job
by PeteyHendrix on Jan 22, 2010 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
I don't like it
Off the top of my head, I can see alot of problems (and I read Slyde’s comments):
- It is not adjusted for park or league, which are both significant. The difference in OPS between the leagues is over 13 points of OPS during the last decade.
- You have included 10 years’ worth of OPS to get a “relevant” (in your words; I really don’t know enough statistics to say) sample size. However, the year-to-year differences are significant – while the NL OPS is .752 over your study period, it has varied from .739 (just last year, incidently) to .773; the AL has varied from .755 to .792, yet the average is .765. To connect with my first point, the difference between the leagues varies even more year-to-year: As little as 4 points in ’07, as much as 25 points in ’09.
- You have set a strict limit of 502 PA, yet lower that for catchers to get 20 (19.3, actually) starters per year. Either 502 is your standard, or 400 is. If not enough catchers qualify, then they don’t.
- You throw out injury/suspension seasons. Manny Ramirez is brought in to be the starter in LF (or DH, if he ever returns to the AL); whether he gets 400 or 502 or 730 PA, the intention is for him to start every day.
My biggest issue, though, is your premise. You seem to be saying that only those players who are full-time and above average at their position are worth pursuing; those players are, by definition, special – in any given year, there are only going to be 10 such players at each position, and very few of those 10 are going to be freely available (none, if thier GMs are smart).
In sum, this statement
If you were thinking about Edwin Encarnacion as a starting left fielder, this shows how his career OPS of .790 is significantly below the threshold of an everyday starter in left field (.859).is false – .859 isn’t the threshold of an everyday starter in LF, but the threshold to be one of the top 10 LF in MLB over the past 10 years, whether available or not.
I play Stratomatic in two completely different types of leagues. The one I’ve played in the longest has just 8 teams, but we draw from the entire major leagues; the other has 24. Your new stat would be very helpful in the first league and completely useless in the second.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
Thanks for your input.
It is not adjusted for park or league, which are both significant. The difference in OPS between the leagues is over 13 points of OPS during the last decade.
Doesn’t the presence of a DH instead of a pitcher account for the 13 OPS point differential between leagues?
while the NL OPS is .752 over your study period, it has varied from .739 (just last year, incidently) to .773; the AL has varied from .755 to .792, yet the average is .765. To connect with my first point, the difference between the leagues varies even more year-to-year: As little as 4 points in ’07, as much as 25 points in ’09.
It is BECAUSE of the fluctuations you mention that I have selected a 10-year sample here to include more examples from which to draw information, and to help dilute any outliers, positive or negative.
You have set a strict limit of 502 PA, yet lower that for catchers to get 20 (19.3, actually) starters per year. Either 502 is your standard, or 400 is. If not enough catchers qualify, then they don’t.
You’re welcome to your opinion, but I disagree. Even the most hearty of catchers are routinely granted a day off when a day game follows a night game. Also, catchers seldom benefit from the additional plate appearances afforded in pinch-hit opportunities or within double-switches as managers traditionally prefer to keep a catcher ready on the bench in chance of injury. A catcher who gets you 400 or more plate appearances in a year is a starting catcher, IMO.
Also, holding catchers to the 502 plate appearance standard would only yield 87 seasonal results, 450 would yield 131, 400 yields 193, and 375 yields 218. I believe my adjustment is reasonable.
You seem to be saying that only those players who are full-time and above average at their position are worth pursuing; those players are, by definition, special – in any given year, there are only going to be 10 such players at each position, and very few of those 10 are going to be freely available (none, if thier GMs are smart).
Actually, I don’t say that at all. I give you the baseline of the EDSOPS, and then you decide if your organizational/target players are worthy given the market, the makeup of your starting lineup, the defensive prowess of a given player, cost differential between options, etc. Stubbs may have an OPS this year of .760, but given his defense, it’s a worthwhile trade-off.
Good luck in Stratomatic!
"Just seeing him in uniform makes me throw up." Jack Clark on Mark McGwire's new coaching job
by PeteyHendrix on Jan 21, 2010 8:28 PM EST up reply actions
Some replies
It is not adjusted for park or league, which are both significant. The difference in OPS between the leagues is over 13 points of OPS during the last decade.
Doesn’t the presence of a DH instead of a pitcher account for the 13 OPS point differential between leagues?
Because your data doesn’t account for league, we have no way of knowing. It could be the DH, better hitters overall, or better hitting environments (parks). Since you control for none of these, you’re just guessing.
while the NL OPS is .752 over your study period, it has varied from .739 (just last year, incidently) to .773; the AL has varied from .755 to .792, yet the average is .765. To connect with my first point, the difference between the leagues varies even more year-to-year: As little as 4 points in ’07, as much as 25 points in ’09.
It is BECAUSE of the fluctuations you mention that I have selected a 10-year sample here to include more examples from which to draw information, and to help dilute any outliers, positive or negative.
Just in the NL, eight teams (half of the league) play in different ballparks than in 2000; the Nationals have played in 3 different stadiums during the decade being studied. Outstripping all of those, though, is Colorado: thanks to the humidor, Coors Field has gone from being a +25% run environment to +10%. Yet, your numbers have no way of reflecting any of these changes other than to assume they all just “even out”.
You have set a strict limit of 502 PA, yet lower that for catchers to get 20 (19.3, actually) starters per year. Either 502 is your standard, or 400 is. If not enough catchers qualify, then they don’t.No, you fudged the numbers to make your data work. You first determined that an average of 20 players a year qualified for the batting title at other positions then deternined that 400 PA were needed to get the same number of catchers. There was no scientific or statistical reason for 400 other than it “fit”.
You’re welcome to your opinion, but I disagree. Even the most hearty of catchers are routinely granted a day off when a day game follows a night game. Also, catchers seldom benefit from the additional plate appearances afforded in pinch-hit opportunities or within double-switches as managers traditionally prefer to keep a catcher ready on the bench in chance of injury. A catcher who gets you 400 or more plate appearances in a year is a starting catcher, IMO.
I appreciate that you put alot of work into this, but the fact that you completely ignore context makes this stat as useful as raw OPS, and your baseline is so high as to make an All-Star “average”. I ran your criteria through the Play Index at baseball-reference.com for a couple of positions (I used 3000 minimum PA, 50% of games played at the position). Do you know how many players qualified as an “above average” 1B over the decade? Ten. Second base? 9. LF? 8. To me, that makes this a useless stat as it is.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
Because your data doesn’t account for league, we have no way of knowing. It could be the DH, better hitters overall, or better hitting environments (parks). Since you control for none of these, you’re just guessing.
I wasn’t guessing, I was asking. I didn’t have the time to run those numbers between your posts. And I do control for designated hitters: they have their own positional category.
To compensate for the differential between ballparks, would it be more valid and viable to use OPS+?
you fudged the numbers to make your data work. You first determined that an average of 20 players a year qualified for the batting title at other positions then deternined that 400 PA were needed to get the same number of catchers. There was no scientific or statistical reason for 400 other than it "fit".
We disagree here. Ignoring that catchers compile fewer plate appearances – due to the physical toll the position takes – would be ignoring that context, which you cite as folly in your very next sentence. And for a team to sign a “starting catcher” and to then assume that he can handle the physical workload of catching AND accumulating 502 plate appearances in a season would be unrealistic. There are only 87 catchers in the last decade who have qualified for the batting title while playing at least 50% of their games at catcher. Of those, only 19 did it more than once. Only 15 have done it more than twice. There are only 12 active catchers who have qualified for the batting title more than once. Fact: catchers accumulate fewer plate appearances than at any other position. To not account for that discrepancy would be folly.
Also, I don’t state that only players above the EDSOPS are worthy. In fact, saying that perverts the stat. There are roughly 10 players above that line, 10 players above that line, and 10 teams that didn’t have an everyday starter. This stat is reflective of how everyday starters perform, not how all third basemen perform. If you are seeking a starting third baseman, and plan to give him the job outright and write his name in the lineup daily, how he compares WITHIN THAT SPECIFIC CONTEXT is a valid discussion.
To get away from the 10 above / 10 below issue, how do we alter the data set to be more useful? Would it be more valid, for those teams who have no qualifying player at 3B, to include the TOP 2 players at that position for the purposes of this study, assuming an intentional/non-intentional platoon/time share?
"Just seeing him in uniform makes me throw up." Jack Clark on Mark McGwire's new coaching job
by PeteyHendrix on Jan 22, 2010 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
OK
Doesn’t the presence of a DH instead of a pitcher account for the 13 OPS point differential between leagues?
Because your data doesn’t account for league, we have no way of knowing. It could be the DH, better hitters overall, or better hitting environments (parks). Since you control for none of these, you’re just guessing.
I wasn’t guessing, I was asking. I didn’t have the time to run those numbers between your posts. And I do control for designated hitters: they have their own positional category.
That’s not controlling for the DH; that’s just listing the data separately. There is no way to tell, from the data presented, whether the presence of the DH would mean a 13 point difference between the leagues (because we don’t know the OPS of pitchers, or the number of PA for either DHs or Ps, the effect of PH, etc.).
To compensate for the differential between ballparks, would it be more valid and viable to use OPS+?You need to compensate for ballparks, league, and season. If you don’t, you’re saying Adrian Gonzalez ‘09 (.958 OPS, 166 OPS+) and Albert Pujols ’09 (1.101 OPS, 188 OPS+) look to be worse hitting 1B than Todd Helton ’00 (1.162 OPS, 163 OPS+).
There was no scientific or statistical reason for 400 other than it “fit”. …That’s fine, but doesn’t answer my question: Other than the fact that an average of 20 catchers accumulate 400 PA each year, what is your criteria for selecting that number?
Fact: catchers accumulate fewer plate appearances than at any other position. To not account for that discrepancy would be folly.
If you are seeking a starting third baseman, and plan to give him the job outright and write his name in the lineup daily, how he compares WITHIN THAT SPECIFIC CONTEXT is a valid discussion.It might be valid, but the bar is way too high. Those guys are so rare as to be unavailable on the open market, making it impossible for a player to compare to the control group. Any player that is even an average “everyday” hitter by your standard and an average fielder is going to be hideously expensive on the market: Justin Morneau is going to make $14M/year starting in ‘10, yet his career OPS is 25 points lower than your standard for 1B. You can argue that his OPS is consistantly higher over the past 4 years, (which you don’t do when discussing EdE in your original post) but even in that span it’s just 4 points above “average” (a time frame in which he’s finished 1st and 2nd in MVP voting – that’s how good he seemed).
To get away from the 10 above / 10 below issue, how do we alter the data set to be more useful? Would it be more valid, for those teams who have no qualifying player at 3B, to include the TOP 2 players at that position for the purposes of this study, assuming an intentional/non-intentional platoon/time share?I don’t think so, because players are on the field for different reasons. A righty/lefty platoon is going to look a whole lot different to your data than an platoon created because of injury or trade, and you can’t reliably say they’ll even out because you don’t know what the situation is when you pull the data, so you don’t know how much of each kind of situation you have.
I just think you have to set the bar much lower than you are now, or else you’re only going to be looking for elite players. Because we can only use raw OPS, I again looked at those with 3000PA in the 00’s, this time at SS. Your data shows the average “everyday” SS to have an OPS of .753; Rafael Furcal is pretty close at .758, which translates to an OPS+ of 96. He signed a 3/$30M contract before last season.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
Why do we need to adjust the data set for DHes when they aren’t compared to any players other than other DHes? Is it just the league adjustment that concerns you?
Other than the fact that an average of 20 catchers accumulate 400 PA each year, what is your criteria for selecting that number?
I’ve already explained my methodology on this issue. You just don’t like it, and I’m OK with that.
For the purposes of this discussion, we needed to find a reasonable adjustment in PA to determine an “everyday starter” qualification for a position that almost always dictates fewer PA opportunities.
the bar is way too high. Those guys are so rare as to be unavailable on the open market, making it impossible for a player to compare to the control group.
Several of these players per position are FA every year, several more per position who fall short of a desirable level (viewed, in part, with this stat), and nearly every player in MLB is available via trade.
Justin Morneau is going to make $14M/year starting in ‘10, yet his career OPS is 25 points lower than your standard for 1B.
Rafael Furcal is pretty close at .758, which translates to an OPS+ of 96. He signed a 3/$30M contract before last season.
I couldn’t give two craps what a guys makes – that is not part of this analysis. There is also no defense counted in this stat, but it would be folly to ignore a player’s defensive contributions.
"Just seeing him in uniform makes me throw up." Jack Clark on Mark McGwire's new coaching job
by PeteyHendrix on Jan 22, 2010 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
One point
You’re ignoring my point on DHs (they may or may not explain the difference in the league OPSs, but you need to account for the league difference in the other positions) and catchers (I understand your method, but that doesn’t answer why you used it (other than it looks good)), so I’ll address one:
Several of these players per position are FA every year, several more per position who fall short of a desirable level (viewed, in part, with this stat), and nearly every player in MLB is available via trade….I couldn’t give two craps what a guys makes – that is not part of this analysis.First, “several” players who are your definition of “regulars” are not “FA every year”. This is the list of players who will be FAs at the end of this season, if they aren’t (1) signed to extensions, (2) offered arbitration, or (3) retired. Among the SS (I’m at work and want to go home at 6 PM, so I only looked at them) I count 5 guys who qualify as “everyday” players: Guzman (who has likely lost his job in Washington), Peralta (who played mostly 2B last year after losing the SS job, and may be losing the 2B job now), Reyes (whose option will be picked up unless he loses a leg), Renteria (who has fallen off a cliff) and Jeter. At most, you’ll have 2 aging and very expensive options on the free agent market who are “everyday” players. Second, you should “give a crap what guys make” because it not part of the analysis; it’s the point of the analysis – what’s it going to cost to bring a player like that in?
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
New theory in Data Mining, tells us that....
“small sample” size is proving to be pure myth.
You need not concern yourself with a big sample, as sometimes that just includes more outliers that need be removed during your mining/analysis.
10 years might actually be too much data to get an accurate average OPS per position.
My suggestion? Cut your data from the present until they implemented the new steroid testing, which was 2006? That’ll give you a better idea of the newly entered “post-steroids” era.
by Highlifeman21 on Jan 21, 2010 9:36 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, you could use EDSOPS for any range of years you dictate.
If you wanted to do a study to use for the 2010 offseason, perhaps a 2006-2009 study would be most prudent…but it will still include some “Manny bring Manny.”
Fuckin’ ’roiders ruining our stats…asswipes!
"Just seeing him in uniform makes me throw up." Jack Clark on Mark McGwire's new coaching job
by PeteyHendrix on Jan 21, 2010 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
really?
Can you point me to a reference?
I could see how large samples might get more outliers, but the fact that small samples have large errors in the mean is fairly rigorously proven.
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
I'll go back through my notes from my Decision Support Systems class this past semester
We covered sample size and it’s moreso dependent upon what you’re mining.
I just remember from lecture that the bigger your sample size, the more outliers you have. If you cleanse your data, and eliminate the outliers, then you yield better knowledge from your dataset.
It’s kinda like that old saying, “garbage in, garbage out”
by Highlifeman21 on Jan 23, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
Would it make a better analysis...
if I were to include the position stats on the teams that didn’t qualify? So for the Dodgers in LF in 2009, I would include a combination of Manny Ramirez, Jason Repko, and Juan Pierre, and call that the Dodgers left fielder? If so, then wouldn’t the only players left out of this study be bench players who played the majority of their games at a position where someone else accumulated 502 PAs?
"Just seeing him in uniform makes me throw up." Jack Clark on Mark McGwire's new coaching job
by PeteyHendrix on Jan 22, 2010 2:40 AM EST up reply actions
Some interesting points here
I agree with Slyde that this creates an unnecessarily high standard, and sid’s point no. 2 is also important to note. Still, I think it’s interesting that CF and 2B have hit the same over the past decade. I also didn’t expect to see 3B hit better than RF.
Below are the 2010 ZiPS projections for the starting 8 (I’m obviously guessing about LF). Even Votto and Phillips fall short of your standard.
Name P Age AVG OBP SLG OPS+ OPS
Joey Votto* 1b 26 .293 .372 .500 128 872
Scott Rolen 3b 35 .283 .352 .439 108 791
Brandon Phillips 2b 29 .276 .327 .446 102 773
Jay Bruce* rf 23 .251 .315 .459 102 774
Wladimir lf 25 .250 .315 .440 97 755
Ryan Hanigan c 29 .267 .347 .357 87 704
Drew Stubbs cf 25 .235 .305 .348 73 653
Paul Janish ss 27 .239 .310 .340 72 650
Joey had an OPS of .981 last year. If ZiPS has him dropping over 100 points, I disagree.
And yes, I think Brandon Phillips is offensively average for a starting second baseman. But factor in defense and baserunning, and you have an elite player.
"Just seeing him in uniform makes me throw up." Jack Clark on Mark McGwire's new coaching job
by PeteyHendrix on Jan 21, 2010 8:35 PM EST up reply actions
BTW, interesting analysis Petey
What if you factor defense into this equation? Above you state that if Stubbs gives us a .760 OPS with his D, he’s an average everyday CF. Now I know it’s over-simplifying it to say that his D is worth .020 OPS offensively (based on your assumption), b/c you can’t compare apples to oranges and say that his runs saved helps his lack of runs created, but there has to be a way to look at what the league average is for an everyday position player per position for both offense and defense.
I've wondered which positions have the greatest deviations from mean for defense
because those are the positions where you can upgrade the greatest for the cheapest.
For example, if there are a lot of shitty 3rd basemen out there, and you can get a 260/350/370 3b with sterling D, you could probably improve a whole hell of a lot more than you would with a 280/360/400 3rd baseman with shitty D
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
by Cy Schourek on Jan 21, 2010 10:20 PM EST up reply actions
rec'd
Really nice, you didn’t oversell it. :)
"Just seeing him in uniform makes me throw up." Jack Clark on Mark McGwire's new coaching job
by PeteyHendrix on Jan 22, 2010 2:24 AM EST up reply actions
I think as long as Rolen continues to be excellent defensively he has positive value
Once that leaves him, he’s pretty much replacement level in my book due to his declining bat.
by Highlifeman21 on Jan 22, 2010 9:08 AM EST up reply actions
There's an ad for Cialis in there somewhere
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Jan 22, 2010 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks, HLM21.
I can’t say that I know/trust defensive stats as they stand today – at least not well enough to factor in D well. Perhaps someone will have an idea on this expansion/implementation.
"Just seeing him in uniform makes me throw up." Jack Clark on Mark McGwire's new coaching job
by PeteyHendrix on Jan 21, 2010 10:32 PM EST up reply actions
I don't trust defensive stats yet either
In the proper context, they can offer some valuable insight, but unfortunately I just don’t think can be hailed as the gospel due to the fact all of them are still works in progress.
UZR is probably the most “widely accepted” defensive stat right now, but even it’s not perfect. Defensive WinShares is also in its infancy, IMO. I eagerly look forward to the day when they both follow a consistent and testable methodology. It seems like every other year the defensive stats tweak and re-examine their calculations/equations to improve, which is a great thing, but with evolving change I think it’s intellectually irresponsible to accept their results as absolute truth at this point.
Speaking of point, what is my point? LF is the one position where I’ll fight to my death screaming that defense simply does not matter for the player, but after watching Griffey lose it in CF and exiled to RF, and the butchers the Reds trot out to SS year after year, and the spectacularness of Brandon Phillips, I easily admit that defense does have a legit claim as part of a player’s worth…. the only problem is that we cannot accurately quantify that defensive value, yet.
by Highlifeman21 on Jan 22, 2010 9:07 AM EST up reply actions
So who had the better chops:
Beethoven or Mozart
Ozzie or Davey
Davey or Lark?
Clapton or VanHalen
Miles or Botti ?
This could be your calling HLM21…
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
This is easy
Mozart (better melodies, less rambling developments and codas)
Ozzie (you saw him play D, right?)
Larkin (no doubt HOFer)
Clapton (better blues and rock guitarist than Eddie, more of a student of the art)
Miles (the original, Botti is a sad, lame copy of Miles. I really don’t know why people listen to him)
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
We are not in total agreemtent NYReds.oh no
Mozart – near perfection musically, yes his melodic sense is stunning
Beethoven – The great simplifier – passion uninterrupted – The great minor 7th – dynamics on parade.
Ozzie – great backflips – nice arm, the golden glover.
Larkin – Not Ozzie, but he sure could hit.
Davey – next to Ozzie the best I ever saw in person.
Clapton – Does it all with style, passion and aplomb, not a bad singer too boot.
Van Halen – Was abducted as a child by aliens who enhanced the musical part of his brain …no one has played the guitar with his technical and musical creativity not since Jimi or Jeff.
Miles – The Mozart of Jazz
Botti – He can blow me.
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
Don't get me wrong, I love Beethoven
but calling him ‘the great simplifier’ is like calling Robin Williams a man of few words. His piano sonatas have codas so long and aimless that you forget what you were originally listening to. Some people love that, but it’s not for me.
I personally think Van Halen is overrated. All flash, little content.
And I’m pretty sure Botti can and should blow you.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
Ted Templeman and Koko Goldstein think they're fucking brilliant
Michael McDonald has never heard of them.
by Brendanukkah on Jan 22, 2010 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
im with you
Van Halen was a great band for having parties and scoring chicks, but musically they were awful.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 22, 2010 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
Eddie is a groundbreaking and masterful guitarist.
"Just seeing him in uniform makes me throw up." Jack Clark on Mark McGwire's new coaching job
by PeteyHendrix on Jan 22, 2010 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
Personally
I put him in the discussion with Hendrix and Dick Dale. I probably like those other two better, but Eddie’s in the discussion.
by Brendanukkah on Jan 22, 2010 7:13 PM EST up reply actions
We are not talking about Duane Eddy...
Good Lawd Brendan.

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
Eddie's method of hammer-ons and pull-offs was groundbreaking.
He has also been groundbreaking in making his guitar sound like other instruments/objects. And he is masterful in his intense dexterity and speed.
"Just seeing him in uniform makes me throw up." Jack Clark on Mark McGwire's new coaching job
by PeteyHendrix on Jan 22, 2010 7:36 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah that too
His clever rhythmic device and unexpected melodic leaps leave me waiting and wanting for more.
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
Well I only call B the great simplifier for use of seemingly simple themes a la the 5th
or the kyrie eleison in the Missa Solemnis. you are correct in your Robin Williams analogy.I am not as big of fan of B’s piano sonatas either although he was the Keith moon of his day, literally breaking the keyboards of pianos while playing causing young women to faint. I like his orchestral works the best.
Van Halen’s use of rhythm combined with a rejection of the traditional stepwise use of intervals puts him heads and tails over almost any rock guitar soloist I can think of. Sheer innovation both technically and musically. although most Van Halen songs were pretty stupid.
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
What I love about B most are his 2nd movements
The 2nd of the 5th, 4th, 7th, all the best parts of those symphonies IMO. I could listen to the 2nd movement of the 5th all day
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
I could too, especially if I were really stoned.
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
there's only one opera i ever truly loved
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 22, 2010 6:00 PM EST up reply actions
wait
what about this one?
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville

"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
by Madville on Jan 24, 2010 8:37 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
^
This
Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans
by Farneyismycopilot on Jan 25, 2010 2:04 AM EST up reply actions
I wonder if Harpo was bi ?
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
Mozart
Ozzie
Lark
Van Halen
I dunno
"Just seeing him in uniform makes me throw up." Jack Clark on Mark McGwire's new coaching job
by PeteyHendrix on Jan 22, 2010 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
Who is this I Dunno
a new Japanese trumpeter that I’ve not heard?
Hey this is supposed to be a baseball post for Christ’s sake.
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
yeah, it would be a damn shame to talk about something other than baseball in a RR thread
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
Just wait until Amadaeus Cozart makes to the big club...
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
I'm just waiting for 'than to start talking about how John Wall is a better guitarist than Clapton
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
Prouncing "Cozart" like "Mozart" is much better than it was before
"look at me! im hablahing espanyoll!" - Charlie Scrabbles
by BK on Jan 22, 2010 5:43 PM EST up reply actions
Since you asked, Mads
Mozart
Ozzie
Larkin
Van Halen
MIles
by Highlifeman21 on Jan 23, 2010 12:17 AM EST up reply actions
It seems like using the "wisdom of crowds" and cobbling together
the Fan Scouting Reports with UZR does a serviceable job. I’m pretty onboard with anything that takes advantage of emerging intelligence and takes a consensus of multiple metrics — sort of the Nate Silver + Malcolm Gladwell approach. I like that it compensates for a player being over/under-valued by the system in part by directly reflecting how the player is valued by fans, which might actually help to neutralize the effect since fan appeal translates to economic value. Teams do have to weigh who they keep on their team based on whether fans will turn out to support them – witness Edwin and Dunn. And their instincts might be pretty on the mark if you consider just how bad Dunn’s defense has been the past couple seasons.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Jan 22, 2010 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
soren says
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
He's such a 'up' guy
I see it all perfectly; there are two possible situations- one can either do this or that. My honest opinion and my friendly advice is this: do it or do not do it- you will regret both.
Soren Kierkaard
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
This is only half serious, Holy Grail / unified theory stuff, but I'd like to see a stat that credited team revenues
to specific players. Sort of an economic version of win shares (“market shares”). Take their baseline market value based on WAR (what the player is worth to the team as a commodity) and add what the player is worth to the team from more of a fan goodwill perspective: merchandise sales + some way of teasing out what portion of the gate the player contributes to (above replacement).
If Milton Bradley put up a league-average season in Chicago, but was poisonous to the team’s PR, that would cut into his overall value by WAR and make the Carlos Silva trade look more sensible. I’m not sure how you would weight a players PR value vs. $WAR value.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Jan 22, 2010 11:24 AM EST reply actions
I'd hate to see what this metric did to Willy Taveras' value
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
values relative
You have to put this into perspective as well, though.
The theory that “Manny just being Manny” will only fly if the fans are tolerant of anything so long as it wins.
Conversely, the nicest players in Cubs history have all retired wishing they could have won one at Uncle Wrigley’s Cabbage Patch. It’s amazing how much slack Carlos Zambrano gets for being a jerk, the same not afforded to a half-speed like Will Ohman.
Otherwise, I think the number of splattered tomatoes on the outfield grass is divisible by some number that could give you the data you seek.
Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part
OK, I forgot what this thread was about
but I went back and looked. I don’t understand what the point of this stat would be. It measures players where the standard is players that are good enough to unquestionably be full-time starters year in and year out. If you have a player who is that good, you don’t need to determine whether he is worthy of a full-time spot – you know he is. But being below this threshold does not mean that a player is not worthy of being your starter.
Players of this caliber are not available for filling holes on a team’s roster. What is important in team decision-making, is whether a player is good enough to outperform someone who is actually available to replace him. Average full-time starters are not available, and so are not the competition that potential starters need to beat out to win a job.
So, say we are asking, would we benefit from putting EE in LF as our everyday starter. The benchmark against which he is measured should not be Carlos Lee, Matt Holliday, Ryan Braun, etc. It should be Dickerson, Gomes, Chris Duncan, Johnny Damon, or other players that are actually available to fill the position.
Conversely, we don’t need this stat to tell us that Joey Votto is acceptable as an everyday 1B. We already know he is, which is why he’s had no competition for the job and we have no notions of upgrading that position, even though by the standards of this stat, he is merely your run-of-the-mill 1B.
My concept here is to arrive at a stat that will help you when determining your starting lineup, and whom you should acquire for said job.
This stat is chiefly for comparison between everyday players whom you might acquire through trade or FA signing, and comparison between your existing options.
by the standards of this stat, he is merely your run-of-the-mill 1B.
Votto had the 3rd highest OPS of starting first basemen in 2009 at .981, far above the 10-year 1B EDSOPS of .876. Nothing run-of-the-mill about that.
"Just seeing him in uniform makes me throw up." Jack Clark on Mark McGwire's new coaching job
by PeteyHendrix on Jan 22, 2010 4:51 PM EST up reply actions
This stat is chiefly for comparison between everyday players whom you might acquire through trade or FA signing, and comparison between your existing options.
I just don’t see why you need it. When you are looking to sign a player, you generally know what his role will be, and you don’t need a stat like this to find comps for a player. Besides, if you want to compare to individual players, why not just use their individual stats?
If you are looking to sign Corey Hart (for example) to be your LF, you know he isn’t going to be average with the bat compared to full-time LFs in the league, but that isn’t really the question at hand. It doesn’t make sense to put him in a comp with Holliday, Dunn, Braun, etc. The question is whether he is better than the players that are the options for your team, which is a much lower baseline. Is he better than Laynce Nix or Wlad Ballentien? Is he better than Jason Bay, considering the money to be spent; that is, only if your team could afford to sign Bay as a FA in the first place. If not, there is no reason to include Bay in your comparison at all, as he is not an option and has no bearing on the decision.
This stat might be useful in contract negotiations. Say a player wants to be paid like one of the top LF in the game. Then you see how he stacks up to the players covered by this stat, and see how the FAs in that group are paid. Still, it’s easier to simply pull individual comps (which is what agents and teams typically do) than to include an entire sample of dissimilar players.
My basic complaint is that this stat does not tell you anything that you don’t already know without the stat. To put it more clearly, it doesn’t add any information that would affect a personnel decision. it doesn’t evaluate players, it simply compares them to an arbitrary standard. How would it influence a roster decision?
by kcgard2 on Jan 23, 2010 8:39 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
One thing this stat seeks to do is to eliminate the scrubs from comparison.
When evaluating 1B options for your everyday lineup, you don’t want to include the offensive stats from the games Juan Castro played there.
Because nothing is more offensive than Juan Castro as your starting first baseman.
"Just seeing him in uniform makes me throw up." Jack Clark on Mark McGwire's new coaching job
by PeteyHendrix on Jan 23, 2010 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
this is sabremetric baseball thread moron
get with it,
"Television has brought back murder into the home - where it belongs."
Alfred Hitchcock 1899 - 1980
Totally. Three times.
And my friend is learning Na’vi.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
i havent seen it yet
i might finally coax the lil’ lady to go tomorry though.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 23, 2010 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
I'm happy to run these numbers again with different specs.
Posting here for constructive criticism is part of the process.
What would be the preferred method to formulate this stat? Should I run them again, this time using OPS+, and including the top two players (by PA) for each team that did not have a qualifying starting position player?
"Just seeing him in uniform makes me throw up." Jack Clark on Mark McGwire's new coaching job
Some food for thought regarding PAs and what not for a new numbers running
Instead of using a minimum PA as a qualifier for each player per position, what about using a % of playing time, or maybe whichever player gets the majority of a given team’s playing time at each position?
Although, say you have a true platoon, where 2 guys roughly are both above say 47% of playing time, I think you’d have to include both players. Perhaps another rule of thumb to re-run is include guys with similar % of playing time at that specific position. If you had 3 guys and they were all around 30%, you’d include them. If you had 4 guys and they played at least 20% at that position, you’d include them. Hopefully this makes sense.
I think if you just include a minimum qualifier for PAs, then you’re really diluting your “everyday” player pool per position.
Use OPS, OPS+, WAR, WinShares, what have you. I don’t think the measuring stick particularly matters.
by Highlifeman21 on Jan 23, 2010 12:33 AM EST up reply actions
Thanks for the feedback!
I don’t disagree with your player percentage concept, although it invokes a troubling amount of personal judgment per situation that I’d like to avoid. I prefer a formulaic approach where an established standard is applied uniformly.
"Just seeing him in uniform makes me throw up." Jack Clark on Mark McGwire's new coaching job
by PeteyHendrix on Jan 23, 2010 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure it involves as much personal judgement as you'd initially think
I’d look at the PAs per position for the year, and then look at players that had essentially a plurality of the playing time.
I understand where you’re coming from, but I think including more players that maybe didn’t meet a minimum PA might yield different analysis results. You can then look at those results and then re-work your methodology, which is perfectly fine.
by Highlifeman21 on Jan 23, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
You don't want to hear this
But if I understand your question correctly (“My concept here is to arrive at a stat that will help you when determining your starting lineup, and whom you should acquire for said job”), you’re going to a whole lot more work (and in a very convoluted way) than you need to; we already have the tools to answer it.
The analysis is really simple: Who, on the current team, fills a particular position and what are they likely to produce? Who is better, how much is he likely to cost, and can I afford him?
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
I keep waiting for the constructive part of your criticism.
"Just seeing him in uniform makes me throw up." Jack Clark on Mark McGwire's new coaching job
by PeteyHendrix on Jan 23, 2010 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
You don't want to hear this, either
The more I read your original post and your replies to my posts (and others’), I get closer to the conclusion that what you’re doing isn’t really addressing your original question. kcgard states it eloquently in his last paragraph above:
My basic complaint is that this stat does not tell you anything that you don’t already know without the stat. To put it more clearly, it doesn’t add any information that would affect a personnel decision. it doesn’t evaluate players, it simply compares them to an arbitrary standard. How would it influence a roster decision?Your reply about not wanting Juan Castro as a 1B is completely irrelevant – we already have various stats to show this to be true, and your stat does nothing to add to that evaluation. In fact, it does nothing to add to any statistical evaluation of offense – it’s like super-duper WAR, where replacement-level is All-Star; broadening your data set a little just lowers the baseline a little, and using OPS+ instead of OPS just puts the numbers in better context, but it still isn’t telling us a single thing we didn’t know before. It might be a fun thing to look at after the season, but as a tool to help build a team it gives the wrong answer to the wrong question.
In short, the only thing constructive I can offer is to start completely from scratch.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
i dont think Johnny Gomes can hit major league pitching
"Life is good....life is good...life is good..life is good" jch

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