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The Greatest Reds: The "I don't know how to quit you" Edition

 

It’s been a few weeks since the last installation of The Greatest Reds series, but I have a couple of complementary pieces I wanted to tack on before the start of Spring Training.  This first follow-up will investigate the concept of replacement value with respect to the top 100 list, and will also contemplate where Aroldis Chapman currently sits on the list.  Into the gory details, after the jump…

Star-divide

At the very beginning of the top 100 countdown, I wrote a brief explanation of Win Shares, and why I used them as a starting point for the rankings.  I also shared what is commonly considered to be Win Shares' primary flaw: it uses a very low baseline, such that a mediocre player can accumulate significant Win Share totals more or less just by showing up and being inserted into the lineup. 

In other words, what is missing from Win Shares is context: how many games or innings or at-bats did it take the player to earn 10 Win Shares?  To some degree, all valuation metrics suffer from this, although the common remedy is to establish "replacement level" baselines that use a theoretical concept of freely available replacement talent, and calculate value above that line.

The Win Shares-centric version of this concept has been publicly championed by Dave Studeman, and he named his modified metric Win Shares Above Bench (WSAB).  It takes a player's level of Win Shares, then subtracts the level of Win Shares we might expect a bench/replacement player to earn over the same amount of playing time.

Readers with OCD will remember that the top 100 countdown was not a strict Win Shares ranking, but tried to balance career and peak performances.  With WSAB, I tried first to rank strictly on pure career totals, and then applied a similar peak component like with the original list.  Here's a table with the three versions:

Wsablist_medium

On the left is the list that ran on the website, in the middle is the career only ranking, and on the right is WSAB with peak/prime adjustments.  You'll also notice the color coding: players in red are those who have dropped more than ten spots from the original list.  Players in green are those who have risen more than ten spots.  Yellow names indicate those who didn't place in the Win Share-based list, and blue shading is for those players who drop completely out of the top 100.

Bullet-point observations:

  • Since color = variance, it's rather obvious to point out that regardless of the value metric used, there's not a whole lot of shake-up at the top of the lists.  I would imagine this to be true of nearly all franchises.
  • Pitchers do well with the higher replacement level, and this is by design.  One of the ongoing criticisms with Win Shares is that it doesn't allocate enough credit to pitchers, so the WSAB metric adjusts accordingly.  So down-list, you'll see a bunch of pitchers (including relievers) making significant jumps up the list.  At the top, however, this is still a hitting franchise: Just one of the top 10 is a pitcher (peaking at #8) compared to none in the first list, and 7 of the top 25 in the WSAB list, as opposed to the initial six.  Fascinating (to me) is John Franco's placement in the top 40.
  • Conversely, the players who fall out of the top 100 are primarily up-the-middle guys, including a bunch of guys who had better gloves than bats, and who tended to get stable playing time over a decent length of time.
  • Of the current players, Brandon Phillips is swapped out for Joey Votto.
  • Still Pete Rose at the top (sorry, Slyde).  In the WSAB influenced list, Pete's scores about 7% higher than the #2 guy, as opposed to 16% in the original list. 

In my opinion, the list on the right is closer to how I would draft for a sim league, while the list on the left matches more satisfactorily my instincts and perceptions as a fan.  To use one brief example from today's team, there is no doubt that Joey Votto is a better player than Brandon Phillips, and I can understand how and why Votto's added more incremental value to the club over his short career.  On the other hand, Phillips has more than double the appearances than Votto, and is perceived in my mind as the more historically significant Redleg.  Additionally, should Votto hit .240 next year, with no power while playing every day (henceforth: "dropping a Tavares"), he would fall off the list on the right.  Should Phillips do the same, he would remain on the left-hand list.  Again, the former makes sense; the latter appeals to the aesthetics of fandom.

Perhaps a combination of the two would satisfy the competing instincts.  Or perhaps we're swimming in murky water, resistant to strict definition.  What say you?

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I still don't know all the intricacies of WSAB

vs. WAR, but I think if the baseline is sensible, that should take care of some of the freerider issues which reward players unduly for just sticking around a long time, rather than sustained, meaningful performance. The top 20 between these lists aren’t significantly altered, so that seems like a good indicator. The rarefied ranks from north of Eric Davis or so roughly match my fan instincts and seem top award both longevity and performance.

But the finer points about where players like Rose, Morgan, Larkin or Robinson should end up are unresolved and largely philosophical, turning on how much an evaluation system should weigh peak vs. entire (Reds) career performance. I would add that it’s worth considering the value of the wins each player contributed, though this would favor players who happened to play on competitive teams. If a player contributed more to the postseason success of a franchise and thereby, its history, would this be a qualification for “greatness” – or is the list simply weighing regular season value, adjusted for era and park?

Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Jan 15, 2010 12:55 PM EST reply actions  

WAR and WSAB are closely correlated

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/war-and-wsab/
Primary reasons to favor WAR (at least Rally’s implementation of it) are the better fielding metric and better position adjustments (especially starter vs. reliever baselines, which AFAIK are still not correctly done in WSAB).

But that said, on the whole, WSAB is a much better metric for value discussions than WS because it eliminates the baseline issue, as riverfront said. It will generally track WAR very well. There are still differences between the WAR & WSAB rankings, but it’s pretty close.
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 15, 2010 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Awesome post

But Leo Cardenas now hates you, and Rob Dibble wants to buy you a beer.

by jacob brumfield on Jan 15, 2010 12:56 PM EST reply actions  

I'm still

rootin’ for Dummy Hoy to move up the list.

I have to confess to being alien to stats in comparison to real life, but I applaud you for endeavoring this.

That would be the sound of my hands smacking up against my forehead. “WTF is he talking about?”

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 15, 2010 1:07 PM EST reply actions  

so i just defied Bubba, Madville, and D's predictions

I flew a plane at Butler County Regional Airport.

I taxied, took off, did most of teh inflight manuvers, helped line it up for landing, and the flight instructor landed. She was pleased with my performance.

If anybody has the itch to fly check out your local flght school, many offer “discovery flights” which allow you to do what I did, and are a low cost way to see if you have it in you to fly.

Bailey, Chapman, Cueto, Leake, and Volquez; the future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.

by justin007000 on Jan 15, 2010 1:59 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

"she was pleased with my performance"...first time you've ever been able to say that?

j/k, that’s pretty cool justin. You going to go up again?

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

by nycredsfan on Jan 15, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

probably in flight school

Which is some time off, I mean this was great for my first time but $70 for a half our of in flight training is steep. I just have to decide what I want to do after I get my MA in history. I mean it wouldn’t be bad to have a real job and moonlight as a flight instructor either.

Bailey, Chapman, Cueto, Leake, and Volquez; the future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.

by justin007000 on Jan 15, 2010 2:07 PM EST up reply actions  

moonlighting

I think astronauts make pretty good money if they can maneuver the lunar lander. So the 70 buckaroos you invested will pay off, long-run, provided you have a short speech that can be immortalized.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 15, 2010 2:24 PM EST up reply actions  

when I was in college

There was a flying club. Kinda like a ski club, only with planes. You could get discounted flying lessons through them, and many students earned private pilot’s licenses by graduation.

Still not cheap, though.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 15, 2010 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I made fun of a friend for being from Grosse Pointe when I found out her high school had a pool.

Then I found out that having a high school pool in Michigan is pretty normal.

IAN! I'm on traain!

by andromache on Jan 16, 2010 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

... We had a pool...

The swim team kind of needs water to practice. Apparently concrete isn’t a good substitute.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Jan 16, 2010 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Well- I never actually saw the pool

But apparently there was one…

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Jan 16, 2010 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Was it on the roof?

Because I’ve heard that one.

IAN! I'm on traain!

by andromache on Jan 16, 2010 9:12 PM EST up reply actions  

No, but our roof did leak horribly.

"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."

by crolfer on Jan 16, 2010 10:33 PM EST up reply actions  

we didn't have a swim team

Because we didn’t have a pool.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 16, 2010 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

same here

we couldnt afford a swim team. or textbooks that knew what AIDS was. in 2000.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 17, 2010 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

What? The USSR broke up?

They were my favorite band!!!

I'd take a one legged midget over Shayne Graham in a heartbeat. - btcoop71

by ZJiff30 on Jan 17, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

just remember

When you’re paying someone for her time, and she wants you to keep doing so, she’s not going to say your performance was inadequate. ;-)

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 15, 2010 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

i learned that years ago...

Bailey, Chapman, Cueto, Leake, and Volquez; the future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.

by justin007000 on Jan 15, 2010 8:53 PM EST up reply actions  

She was pleased with my performance.

Translate – she was grateful to be back on the ground alive.

Incompetents invariably make trouble for people other than themselves.
Larry Mcmurtry

by Madville on Jan 15, 2010 2:25 PM EST reply actions  

I do think

choice of words here might be factored into the remainder of this thread.

Performance may require a thesarial component.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 15, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

she only had to take over teh plane to land it

at no time during the flight did she take the plane from me because I seemed over my head.

Bailey, Chapman, Cueto, Leake, and Volquez; the future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.

by justin007000 on Jan 15, 2010 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

hell, I can land a plane

it just bounces once or twice more than is prescribed under manufacturer’s guidelines.

but, best of luck with your new avocation!!

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 15, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm no hater.

Well-played, Justin.

I'd take a one legged midget over Shayne Graham in a heartbeat. - btcoop71

by ZJiff30 on Jan 15, 2010 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

so Mads

why don’t you go to a flight school and see how well you fly a plane…

Yeah the guntlet has been thrown down, pick it up BITCH!!!

Bailey, Chapman, Cueto, Leake, and Volquez; the future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.

by justin007000 on Jan 15, 2010 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

The guntlet?

That sounds sexual.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Jan 15, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

cuaffle

Bailey, Chapman, Cueto, Leake, and Volquez; the future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.

by justin007000 on Jan 15, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

That too.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Jan 15, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Justin...

I do not need an airplane to fly…

Back in the day after walking 14 miles through the desert home from school, with no shoes and my water skins empty..I worked on a flying machine that was ahead of its time…

Justin – really congrats man I couldn’t fly a plane unless Julie Skaggerty was there to guide me.
(That’s Mads as co-pilot)

Incompetents invariably make trouble for people other than themselves.
Larry Mcmurtry

by Madville on Jan 15, 2010 5:25 PM EST up reply actions  

it really isn't that difficult

you should try it.

Bailey, Chapman, Cueto, Leake, and Volquez; the future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.

by justin007000 on Jan 15, 2010 8:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't care much for heights.

But when you get certified (as a pilot, that is) I’ll go up with you.
As long as we can buzz obc’s house.

Incompetents invariably make trouble for people other than themselves.
Larry Mcmurtry

by Madville on Jan 15, 2010 9:01 PM EST up reply actions  

i understand

my fiance will never go up with me, unless I am flying a commercial jet. Otherwise she doesn’t think it is safe.

Bailey, Chapman, Cueto, Leake, and Volquez; the future is so bright I have to wear sunglasses.

by justin007000 on Jan 15, 2010 9:07 PM EST up reply actions  

What????!!!

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 15, 2010 9:02 PM EST up reply actions  

great way of putting it:
Joey Votto is a better player than Brandon Phillips…..Phillips…is perceived in my mind as the more historically significant Redleg

by GrooveLeg on Jan 15, 2010 3:26 PM EST reply actions  

BP is very popular

"Life is good....life is good...life is good..life is good" jch

by obc2 on Jan 18, 2010 9:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Speaking of top 100 Reds,

Darnell McDonald signed a minor league deal with Boston.

We Are ... Marshall!

by Thundering Turtle on Jan 15, 2010 5:20 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

Man those Boston fans are going to be so happy about that signing ...

until they realize this McDonald isn’t all that, uh, white.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Jan 15, 2010 5:26 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Wow, Old has a job

I still think he was a pretty warm and fuzzy story last year.
Well warm
sorta fuzzy

Work with me on this one, please.

Thankfully, for idiots like you, our forefathers gave us the second commandment – the right say whatever you want no matter if you’re wrong. — Unknown, for the most part

by johnu1 on Jan 15, 2010 5:27 PM EST up reply actions  

No!!!!!!!

Reds fan for 40 years!

by gejoe on Jan 16, 2010 4:58 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

don't tempt fate

They could trade him back to us.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Jan 15, 2010 8:34 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Agree'd with D, not funny

" 'than's pussy looks better than your cock." -- BubbaFan to ZJiff30

by jch24 on Jan 16, 2010 1:26 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

This is the greenest page I've ever seen.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Jan 18, 2010 11:19 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Jan 18, 2010 11:23 PM EST reply actions  

I hereby decree this the Gaga Thread

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Jan 18, 2010 11:27 PM EST reply actions  

how did this happen?

was there a point?

soylent green?

"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville

by bbjones on Jan 18, 2010 11:30 PM EST up reply actions  

who the heck made the whole thread green?

i lol’d, but it was probably one person who did it with multiple id’s. amirite?

by Daedalus on Jan 19, 2010 12:02 AM EST reply actions  

Nope

It was a confederation.

by Brendanukkah on Jan 19, 2010 12:07 AM EST up reply actions  

a conspiracy?

"Life is good....life is good...life is good..life is good" jch

by obc2 on Jan 19, 2010 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

of dunces?

"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville

by bbjones on Jan 19, 2010 12:28 AM EST reply actions  

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