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The Reds Need to Honor Hal McCoy With His Own Day at GABP

Mccoy_hal_medium
via web.baseballhalloffame.org


For 37 years, Hal McCoy has brought news of the Cincinnati Reds to the readers in Dayton and the surrounding areas.  That run of 37 fantastic years that included winning the 2002 J.G. TAYLOR SPINK AWARD from the Baseball Hall of Fame is coming to an end at the end of this season.  Budgetary cuts have caused the Dayton Daily News to change the way they cover the Cincinnati Reds starting next season, and the biggest change is that they will no longer employ the Hall of Famer to cover the team on a daily basis.

I know the media world is changing.  Heck, there are some who think bloggers are the future of news reporting, but the fact is that many of us bloggers would be lost without the likes of Hal McCoy.  Going out to follow the team on a daily basis would mean leaving my parent's basement, and frankly I'm not so sure my pale skin could handle the exposure to sunlight.  The fact is, we still get our news from the beat writers, and now the Reds are only going to have John Fay and Mark Sheldon next season giving us that news - and to be honest, the Cincinnati Enquirer ain't exactly printing money right now either.  Losing McCoy is a blow to not just the industry, but to fans of the Reds in general.

And this is why the Reds should honor McCoy with his own day at the park.  The man has spent over half of his life following this team around from coast-to-coast and writing their story.  While he claims he was "doing a job that wasn’t a job," he still did a damn fine job at his non-job.  For many people, McCoy is as much of a icon of Cincinnati baseball as Marty Brennaman.  I don't imagine for a second that Marty would retire without his own special day at the park.  I sure hope the Reds give McCoy that same type of send off.  He deserves it.

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what the hell am i gonna do with the Reposter?

in all seriousness though, on one hand i am really sad to hear he’s done, but on the other i am completely and utterly not surprised by it.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 7, 2009 12:35 AM EDT reply actions  

it is a tough job even if he enjoyed it

it can’t be fun to have to get quotes from some of these guys, especially when they are going this bad. It takes some finesse. I second your motion for a day honoring Hal.

by Red_Poodle on Aug 7, 2009 12:41 AM EDT reply actions  

The DDN and all newspapers have put themselves in this hole

It sucks that they had to let Hal go, but they didn’t really have the choice. It’s the changing market, and sadly, newspapers don’t know how to change until it’s far too late.

Newspapers cut out the heart to save the brain trust. And they wonder why they can’t survive…

by manichedgehog on Aug 7, 2009 12:53 AM EDT reply actions  

I think

the newspapers STILL don’t know how to change. The way forward is not clear, as we discussed here at RR. The Internet is a change as fundamental as the invention of the printing press, and no one can foresee what the results will be.

The NY Times saw the handwriting on the wall years ago, and have tried to transition to an Internet multimedia company, but the intractable problem is money. It’s really hard to get people to pay for digital content, with a few exceptions.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Aug 7, 2009 6:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

they can try

But a lot of newspapers have tried and failed.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Aug 7, 2009 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

ditto the New York Times

But their “Times Select” program crashed and burned.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Aug 7, 2009 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

ESPN makes money off of ESPN insider, no?

I think it works for some sites. But, they’d have toe be strict and mandate it. None of this paying for “premier” news garbage.

by Jake Liscow on Aug 7, 2009 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, that's the problem I see...

news will get out, either way…I can’t imagine NYT putting something like 9/11 behind a paywall. Or rather, I don’t want to imagine it.

The problem is, I trust sites like Registan or Ghosts of Alexander before I trust NYT or WSJ when it comes to analysis, much like I trust RR rather than MLB for that. It’s an interesting nut to crack, either way.

by Cy Schourek on Aug 7, 2009 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't like Registan.

But that’s personal preference! NYT is very populist sometimes. I personally prefer wire news and my own analysis. Maybe I’m too into myself… But I analyze news for a living.

by Jake Liscow on Aug 7, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Registan can get awfully preachy and diatribey

but they tend to connect dots more than the mainstream, and I think that the fact both of them are regional experts working on their PhDs make them more valuable than some columnist who is taking things secondhand.

They used to be better when they talked less about Afghanistan, more about the newly independents that are more in their wheelhouse, though. Now they’re more reliant on just telling you why Robert Kaplan is wrong.

by Cy Schourek on Aug 7, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I really don't know

Do they make enough off Insider to pay the people who create content for it? Or is it being subsidized by the rest of their operation? The NY Times ran TimesSelect for a few years, but eventually decided it was more profitable to offer the content for free and sell ad space.

As Clay Shirky points out, the current pay model works only in certain situations. It works for the WSJ, because traders don’t want to share their knowledge. (And I wonder how well it works even for the WSJ. They announced they were going to open up their online content to everyone, then changed their mind at the last minute.) It works for Consumer Reports, because what people are paying for is unimpeachability. But for ordinary news sites? I don’t see it. If Newscorp charges money, people will just go to CNN or MSNBC or Reuters. If they somehow all get together and all charge money, people will go to overseas sites like the BBC.

And what will Newscorp do if people share their articles by posting them on blogs or sending them out via e-mail? Are they going to sue their fans, like the music industry? (Even the music industry has given that up.) The pay model doesn’t address this fundamental structural issue of the Internet: it makes everyone a publisher.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Aug 7, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Colin Cowherd discussed this on his ESPN radio show yesterday.

There isn’t much of a chance that Newscorp will be successful with this. I personally would just move to CNN rather than pay for online content. The internet is so wide open compared to radio or tv or the newspaper industry that it’s so easy for anyone to get a site and repost Newscorp’s stuff free of charge.

The ultimate reality is that, unless you’re in the online porn or gambling industries, your chances of making money online are slim.

"If it wasn't this, it'd be something else."

by ZJiff30 on Aug 7, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

User-generated content spelled the end of traditional news media

And no one knows how to adjust, because there’s no one in charge.

by Jake Liscow on Aug 7, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

You think that someone in charge can tell people how to adjust?

I disagree, I think that the way the internet opens things up, people can decide that they’ll do things the way they want to no matter what anyone says, which is better. People journalizing for free may very well be the future, for better or for worse.

I’m interested in how other sports are doing. Does anyone know what basketball or football fans are doing about the crisis? Or soccer fans or something overseas? Baseball seems to be the most-blogged sport, which makes it unique.

by Cy Schourek on Aug 7, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

You don't disagree.

I just worded what I wanted to say poorly. And I don’t remember what I wanted to say. But I agree with what you just said.

by Jake Liscow on Aug 7, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

gotcha

glad to see that I agree with the person taking my legacy place as the third DC RRer

by Cy Schourek on Aug 7, 2009 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hope Hal stays a Reds fan

I hope he keeps going to games, and I hope he blogs until he can’t anymore. I’d read it. The man loves baseball. I’ll miss the clubhouse access, but he knows how to write about a game.

by manichedgehog on Aug 7, 2009 12:55 AM EDT reply actions  

Hal in the Reds Hall of Fame?

If he can be in the Baseball Hall of Fame because of his Reds coverage shouldn’t he be in the Reds’ Hall, too?

by Mr. Redlegs on Aug 7, 2009 1:12 AM EDT reply actions  

He is in the Reds Hall

There’s a wall with all the sports writers and broadcasters who have been important or won awards, and he has a plaque on that wall.

by Brendanukkah on Aug 7, 2009 8:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Technically he's not "inducted" in the Baseball Hall either

because only players are inducted. I think what Brendan is saying is that he is prominently featured in the same fashion that he is in Cooperstown, if not more so.

"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty

by Slyde on Aug 7, 2009 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, He Is Inducted at Cooperstown

They have a room for the media winners with their plaques, they are part of the induction ceremonies/speeches, and the big honking ring on Hal’s finger says “Baseball Hall of Fame” with the Spink Award on the side.

by Mr. Redlegs on Aug 7, 2009 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

For Comic Relief

The Reds Hall should have a life-sized statue of former Enquirer Reds writer Bob Hertzel. Everything about the guy is Hall of Fame hilarious.

by Mr. Redlegs on Aug 7, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

After doing some digging

The Reds Hall of Fame is only chartered to induct players, managers, and front office executives. No broadcasters or journalists. So while Hal McCoy was (and still is) a wonderful writer, the Reds have had a number of greats through the years and his “retirement” shouldn’t be the tipping point to change the induction rules. He’s recognized there, and I think he’d agree that’s good enough for him.

If they do eventually change their mission to include the journalists and broadcasters, then absolutely he deserves induction.

by Brendanukkah on Aug 7, 2009 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Time to honor Hal in an uniquely RR way

Slyde should offer Hal a position of Blogger Emeritus here at Rep Reporter
the crowning achievement of an exceptional career.

One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.
George Carlin

by Madville on Aug 7, 2009 2:46 AM EDT reply actions  

I'm kind of intrigued by that notion

Hal’s blog was great, with some really cool stories from the road and the clubhouse. I wonder how he would function on a fan blog such as ours, but it’s a pretty interesting idea.

by Brendanukkah on Aug 7, 2009 8:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think after the initial shock he'd be good

You know, like jumping into a cold pool, your balls at first go up to your throat, but then, they settle into place and you are good to go.

First time I shot her, I shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...

by btcoop71 on Aug 7, 2009 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

we all know there's no chance this would ever happen

but if it did, I’m pretty sure he’d wipe the floor with me in terms of writing.

"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty

by Slyde on Aug 7, 2009 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

you won't get an argument from me

"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty

by Slyde on Aug 7, 2009 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'll Argue (Shock)

The ledes and essays on this site have been very, very strong this season. Very.

As for Hal, there’s already rumor of him landing on his feet. Would the Enquirer, despite its self-perceived financial woes, finally get McCoy to come aboard after all these years and put an enormous canister shot into the circulation border war they’re having with DDN?

Don’t be fooled: McCoy’s following is nationwide and it’s enormous. DDN/Cox Media are morons. This is going to hurt them badly.

by Mr. Redlegs on Aug 7, 2009 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Inside scoop!

I dunno if the Enquirer can afford to expand its sports staff though.

by Jake Liscow on Aug 7, 2009 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'd take Hal over the Fay anyday

First time I shot her, I shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...

by btcoop71 on Aug 7, 2009 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

If they hire Hal, it will probably be at the expense of some of the other sports staff.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Aug 7, 2009 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

"McCoy’s following is nationwide and it’s enormous."

I’m not saying anything new, but one of the ironies here is that the internet is killing the newspaper business model while simultaneously exposing the product to vast new audiences. I never read McCoy until I could online. While I’m glad that I got to read at least some of his work, it’s sad that the means I was able to do so cost him his job (eventually).

by ken on Aug 7, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think this is a great idea

This year? Next year? Anyone have any connections to the Reds front office?

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Aug 7, 2009 6:21 AM EDT reply actions  

Tis better to give Hal a day than receive Halladay

I don’t know the Cincinnati papers as well, but the Dayton Daily News employed three successive Hall of Fame beat writers (Si Bureck, Ritter Collett, and Hal McCoy). It’s such a shame things have to end this way, and if the Reds truly want to do something for their fans this season, they absolutely must have a day honoring McCoy. I know that there are some people from the Reds office that read this site, so I urge you to do what you can from within to make this happen. We as fans should write, call, and petition them to make it happen.

And a quick remembrance of Aaron Boone, who convinced Hal to keep at it after he started losing his sight and thought he would have to retire then. Since that happened in 2003, there hasn’t been much good baseball to watch, so perhaps Hal was actually at an advantage.

Enjoy a cigar, Hal. Well-earned. Thank you for all of your service.

by Brendanukkah on Aug 7, 2009 8:21 AM EDT reply actions  

Pretty sad.

It’s always tough to see something like this happen – an obviously talented person losing his job not because he want to, or because of something he did or didn’t do, or because he isn’t needed, but because of factors completely out of anyone’s control. Add me to those wishing Hal the best.

Another thought hit me as I was reading this, though. As all of the beat reporters from newspapers disappear, where will we hear news of the team? Who will conduct the interviews, ask the owners, GMs, and managers tough questions? The chilling answer: MLB.com. The people who own the game will soon control all of the media coverage of the teams, and we’ll all suffer because of it.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Aug 7, 2009 9:09 AM EDT reply actions  

yeah, it'll be interesting to see how this all works itself out

What I sort of hope happens is that the Reds consider letting people like CTR and Fay (eventually) work as independent contractors in some way. I’m not sure how something like that is financed, but the disbursement of information is the cheap part these days. Now we just need to find a model where the people with the skill can afford to put that skill to use. I imagine eventually people are going to start charging for the actual reporting they do, but I think the world is going to need to get over the idea that everything on the internet should be free. (I know there are a million problems with the idea of charging for news reports on the internet, but it will have to happen eventually in some form, I think)

"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty

by Slyde on Aug 7, 2009 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think it's more likely that corporations/NGOs pay writers

to write from their perspective and disseminate it for free (or relatively free) with money made elsewhere in the corp. In other words, yeah, MLB.com would control the vast majority of baseball news…who knows? Maybe they’ll deign to give some of the more big-time blogs access, not that I know why they would.

I’m saying this because I heard that NPR and their structure has held out pretty strongly in the wake of the whole news disaster. They get talent, and they let the talent loose, and get their revenues from elsewhere. It isn’t the model for a behemoth company, but it works, unlike everything else right now.

by Cy Schourek on Aug 7, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm relatively late to the RR party

so maybe this has been discussed before, but one issue in the last year has been with giving credentials to bloggers. Has RR ever tried that, or would they be interested in that? I’d love to hear Slyde giving Dusty the business about batting Taveras 1st.

Slyde would just mention wOBA and Dusty’s head would explode.

Isn't there a slanket somewhere you should be filling with your farts?

by nycredsfan on Aug 7, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

*Should have read all the posts below before posting this

/jump the gun’d

Isn't there a slanket somewhere you should be filling with your farts?

by nycredsfan on Aug 7, 2009 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Couldn't agree more

I’ve always loved the half-inning that Hal does with Marty every game, I hope they can find a way to keep doing that, even if it is just for home games.

Also, Marty has two bobbleheads (three if you count the one from Kroger). I think it’s time for a Hal McCoy bobble. Seriously.

by C.DeVore on Aug 7, 2009 9:22 AM EDT reply actions  

All respect to Hal,

and not to get too off-topic, but I think that the time will come when amateur-pro blogs like this one, run by fans professionally, as it were, will be recognized by professional sports. Media has shifted to the internet, obviously, and over time prominent bloggers will have to be accommodated by professional sports teams, business, ect., if they want to avoid a PR disaster.

Imagine a scenario in which RR continued to gain readership. Over the past year, page visits have more than doubled (on a monthly basis). As viewership continues to grow, which it is showing signs of consistently doing, especially as it’s featured on Yahoo! Sports and SI.com, the clout of the blog grows. So does the blogger’s importance to the team’s communications and PR efforts. This development seems inevitable to me – what do you think?

by Jake Liscow on Aug 7, 2009 9:51 AM EDT reply actions  

Wha I do?

I work in strategic communications. Blogs are growing, but they’re already traditional media (everyone blogs). Just a matter of time before the things blogs cover open up.

by Jake Liscow on Aug 7, 2009 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think it's inevitable if its market share keeps increasing.

It’s already at almost 3,000 readers a day without doing any sort of marketing..

by Jake Liscow on Aug 7, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

are those unique readers?

wow, that’s pretty impressive…well done, ladies and gents.

by Cy Schourek on Aug 7, 2009 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

No.

Multiple visits from the same IP are counted multiple times. It counts page views and site visits separately though. So if I’m here and click 10 different posts, it’s 1 visit and 10 page views. But if I close and open RR 10 times, it’s 10 visits – I think.

by Jake Liscow on Aug 7, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think that is completely true

It is unique visits either over a certain amount of time or certain number of visits. So, if you close down and come back but your IP address is still in the “active pool,” it won’t be counted as a unique visit. I’ve heard two conflicting theories, one that the active pool recycles after 4000 visits, which doesn’t make any sense, or that it recycles after 4 hours, so if you are on the site for more than 4 hours, you are considered 2 unique visits. I’m pretty sure the 2nd one makes the most sense.

I have a feeling that the majority of our unique visits are repeats during the day, but unfortunately without more robust tools, it’s hard to tell. I’m not a big fan of Sitemeter, and there has been requests put in to get us on Google Analytics, but there are issues with Google that don’t allow SBN to track overall network activity. Hopefully those issues will be worked out soon because I’d really like to see a more accurate representation of how we are doing.

"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty

by Slyde on Aug 7, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think you're right, I forgot

I ran sitemeter on my old, tiny blog. You’d stay active for a few minutes after you left the site, but I’d get a lot of hits from the same IP address. It would be great to see how many unique visitors/day you get though.

by Jake Liscow on Aug 7, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

yep

And I still disagree. I’m not saying that it’s not the path for some sites. I’m sure there are plenty of people who are qualified to do be the news provider for a team. I’m just not certain that Red Reporter is such a site. Or at least I should say, it’s not for me. It could be that someone on this site could take that role on. But this site in general is more about analysis than reporting. It’d be a major shift in strategy for us.

"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty

by Slyde on Aug 7, 2009 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

It would be adding a beat writer, essentially.

I don’t know how much else would have to change on the surface.

by Jake Liscow on Aug 7, 2009 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well

there is a certain trust factor that would need to be created with the organization as well. The Enquirer doesn’t get access because they have a beat writer and a large audience. The Reds also have to believe that the reporter is going to be fair and honest. That’s not always the M.O. of fan sites in general or this site in particular.

"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty

by Slyde on Aug 7, 2009 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's a good point.

But that is sort of a defeatist approach to ensuring fair, independent coverage. If the journalist has to be team-approved, that is, it might as well be an mlb.com or Reds employee.

by Jake Liscow on Aug 7, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

As we discussed in emails last night, RR doesn’t have to be a news aggregator for the Reds. That’s not the point nor is that expected of the teams. No question, they won’t allow seasonal access to blogs anytime soon. The issues are thick.

But the site is called “Reds Reporter” and there is finite value to occasional access (what’s being discussed in three of the four major sports is a “Blogger Day” about every 3-4 weeks) for interviews, original content and making key contacts that help accentuate/embellish the analysis, opinion and essays you guys do.

Access for sports blogs is a hot, hot topic this very day.

by Mr. Redlegs on Aug 7, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

See that 800 lb. gorilla in the corner?

He’s really, really expensive to feed. From the article:

They just can’t afford the more than a quarter of a million dollars a year to send me coast-to-coast.

As Bubbafan pointed out above, the internet makes everyone a publisher; the thing is, it does so because publishing on the internet is free. Could this site come up with a quarter mil to finance a beat reporter? Could any fansite?

That is the point of my previous post. The problem is not that newspapers are going broke because they can’t compete with the internet, per se. It’s that bloggers cannot, by their very nature, replace them. Despite the title on his desk, Slyde does no actual reporting( nor does anyone else around here); he (and we) just comment on other people’s (very expensive) work.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Aug 7, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good point, and the scary part (as mentioned above) is

who’s left who has the money to fund the work?

MLB (or NFL, NBA, etc.)

The beat reporters are already less than critical because they kind of need to be to keep access to the team, but imagine if the leagues controlled all the information.

Let’s all look into our telescreens and say together, “I love Big Brother”

Isn't there a slanket somewhere you should be filling with your farts?

by nycredsfan on Aug 7, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

WRONG!

Teams do not and cannot dictate access based on their reporting. Have no idea why so many fans believe this bunk.

First, there are two large and very powerful organizations—the Baseball Writers and Pro Football Writers associations that are in the commissioners’ offices when things like fairness and access are an issue. That’s rare because it’s stupid for the teams and sports. The teams will lose, 100 percent of the time on those issues.

Here’s a great example: A couple of years ago the Redskins decided they didn’t like some of the columns the Washington (D.C.) Times was writing about them. So, they took away one of their seats in the pressbox and sent them to an auxiliary “viewing area” in the bowels of the stadium. John Clayton, then prez of the Football Writers, went nuts and the entire Redskins media corp backed the Times. Clayton’s solution: Give the Times their rightful seats or there would be a media blackout on use of the name “FedEx Field.”

Tagliabue called the Redskins within 4 hours and said give the seat back to the Times and don’t do this sheet again.

Also, there’s a fairly standard qualification throughout sports about who gets access: “Major news-gathering organizations.” Unless the reporter has some behavioral or ethical issue that conflicts with the team, the team never, ever dictates who reps that media company.

by Mr. Redlegs on Aug 7, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

OK, fair point

but you could understand fans thinking this based on the fact that VERY LITTLE of what ever gets written, even about bad teams, is overtly negative. Maybe in really big markets you get one hothead like Jay Mariotti who likes to stir the pot, but generally beat writers, even for independent papers, toe the company line.

Besides, I wasn’t really referring to losing seats in the press box or access to the clubhouse. I’m talking about losing access to players and coaches. If I’m the writer for RR, and I’ve written a couple of articles about how clueless Dusty Baker is when it comes to putting together lineups, do you think I’ll keep being able to walk into a clubhouse and get my questions answered?

I’m not blaming Fay or anyone like him, it’s just a reality. The nice thing about places like RR is these guys don’t need to worry about stuff like that so they can offer up unbiased analysis. The reason I like this blog so much is they do so in an intelligent, thoughtful, coherent way (unlike many blogs)

Isn't there a slanket somewhere you should be filling with your farts?

by nycredsfan on Aug 7, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it depends

You see negative articles all of the time. Someone like Hal can get away with it because he’s earned the respect of team officials. You, on the other hand, are some twit on the internet who has no idea of the inner workings of a baseball team; it would probably only take one such article for Dusty to never answer a question from you.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Aug 7, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Of Course

No team is going to restrict your access because you wrote something negatively. If that was the case, the Red Sox, Yankees, Cubs, Eagles and Cowboys would have an empty clubhouse.

What WOULD happen is you would be left to defend yourself in that clubhouse, and every player and coach would be waiting and watching. And really, logically and sensibly, it takes more nerves than brains to beat in someone’s brains in print and then go prancing up to them again as if nothing happened.

The manager has a daily press briefing. You usually meet in his office with the door closed, and you’d get your ass worn loose by the manager. In front of everyone. You would likely get cussed and humiliated in ways you never deemed possible.

From there, you’re on your own.

by Mr. Redlegs on Aug 7, 2009 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll Also Add . . .

There’s an enormous difference between the beat writers and the columnists.

The beat guys are “reporters” and it is NOT their job and it is NOT generally allowed by their editors and desks for them to be analytical or critical in their day-to-day coverages. That’s no different from a city hall beat, White House beat or any news-event role.

Report the news, report what happened. That’s it. That’s all.

Columnists like Mariotti are there for opinion and analysis. They are a “voice” and that’s their role—perspective, analysis and overview, critical or otherwise.

So all the fans who think Fay and McCoy are pawns because they don’t the job as you think it should be done, that’s not their job to rip and question the manager each night about his lineups. The job description is simple—report what happens, offer a twist if need be, but keep it straightforward. Let the columnist do the dirty work or hold the material for your own weekly column.

by Mr. Redlegs on Aug 7, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good point

I realized Mariotti was a columnist after I wrote that. Also, that’s why Paul Daugherty can write some of the stuff he does. No way he writes that if he had to face Dusty every day.

I guess my frustration with the mistrust of blogs is that I wish some writers at RR had the access to a wider audience like Daugherty does. I could list a dozen people on this site who are better writers and know more about baseball than he does.

Baseball must be a great game to survive the fools who run it.— Bill Terry

by nycredsfan on Aug 7, 2009 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Daugherty I've spoken to on several occasions.

Claims he is critical then takes a player or coach out to dinner to talk about it. Supposedly is very “respected” in the clubhouse and lockeroom and players like to discuss things with him. Otherwise, he’d have no job, so it kind of makes sense.

by Jake Liscow on Aug 7, 2009 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wrong Again

Just because you don’t like Daugherty’s style or writing or approaches doesn’t mean he would be without a job. Not at all.

He’s had multiple opps to leave, each year his body work places in the top of the Enquirer’s circulation class in the Associated Press Sports Editors Awards (highest sportswriting awards in the country) and he would be hired very quickly by another, better paper if he were to leave.

Tip: the columnist’s job (or the sportswriter’s) is NOT to know everything there is to know about sports. Those things are not requirements for the job. Perspective, opinion and commentary is what he’s hired to do. When you disagree with them, they have you hook, line and sinker.

As Mark Purdy likes to say, “ain’t doing your job is they ain’t pissed off.”

by Mr. Redlegs on Aug 7, 2009 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't say that... read more carefully.

If he weren’t respected by players and coaches and they didn’t talk to him, he’d have no job.

by Jake Liscow on Aug 7, 2009 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sure he would a job

Columnist doesn’t need co-op from players and coaches to be opinionated and readable. Certainly it helps, but there have been many, many great columnists who wrote straight from the hip.

by Mr. Redlegs on Aug 7, 2009 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Daugherty proves your point about not knowing anything about sports

As far as I can tell, the only thing he knows is conventional wisdom and how to recognize and report on the placement of couches

by timb116 on Aug 7, 2009 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

And That's Different from Kornheiser

how? Who knows the last practice he attended. When he’s at games all he does is BS. If he buddies at the WaPo didn’t feed him background he’d be clueless. But people think he’s the best thing since Moon Pies and RC Cola.

It all depends on how seriously YOU take sports analysis.

by Mr. Redlegs on Aug 8, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes

I think the “bread and butter” baseball coverage might all come from MLB.com in the future, as more and more papers can’t afford to send beat writers hither and yon covering games.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Aug 7, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

but RR could afford to send representatives to home games

and with our sister blogs, we can have coverage of away games too.

Bloop

by justin007000 on Aug 7, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm also available to go to away games..

Especially East and West coast, and DC.
I’ll pay for the wife’s ticket.

One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.
George Carlin

by Madville on Aug 7, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I got mets and phillies covered

Isn't there a slanket somewhere you should be filling with your farts?

by nycredsfan on Aug 7, 2009 3:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

in the old days

Covered wagons travel for reporters was subsidized by the teams. The first step would be someone covering the team part time and not traveling with them. Heck, as newspapers chop staff, they might end up taking some trips as stringers. The papers would do the dance to avoid full time employee costs. Also, some reporting could be done for visiting teams. That’s how things used to be.

by ol Pete on Aug 7, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is a very interesting point.

But I think Justin’s response is pretty good. If the SB Nation community came together to cover home games, costs plummet. It’s all about the network and trust. If each MLB city had a reporter devoted to covering all games in their respective home stadium (for SB Nation) then your costs are down to about 20-35/game. And in a perfect world, you get what we want – unbiased beat reporting.

Finding someone with that kind of time on their hands – for free – is another question.

by Jake Liscow on Aug 7, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

couldn't we have multiple people do it

i feel like there are enough talented and tactful people here, that we could have decent coverage. I couldn’t being to expect Slyde to cover 81 games, but if he covered 8, and BK covered 8, and JCH covered 8, etc, it could be done.

Would you be willing to cover a few baseball games for free, and get press access to the club? I mean RR couldn’t just send any member done there, Slyde would have to make sure they wouldn’t embarrass RR, but I think there are plenty of people we could send.

Bloop

by justin007000 on Aug 7, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don't Get Greedy

Fan blogs—not to be confused with blogs being written by long-time, established writers now freelancing—are a long way from daily access.

For one, many of those writers have lifetime memberships from the BBWAA so they don’t need a “major news-gathering organization” for their credentialing. For another, teams are still wrestling with the professionalism and legitimacy issues of fan blogs.

It absolutely ruins chances for sites like RR when things like the following happen:

  • Fan blog was allowed access to the Cowboys last year and the “reporter” was caught not only getting autographs, but selling them on eBay;
  • Fan blog was given access to Redskins training camp last year and the “reporter” was caught stealing photography equipment;
  • Fan blog was allowed a one-day pass to the Yankees at spring training and was caught soliciting players for outside business interests.

Ka-boom!

So don’t get greedy about daily access. But if “Blogger Day” becomes a reality—and that’s a huge IF with Rob Butcher of the Reds—and RR is selected, by all means, make the best of that opportunity.

by Mr. Redlegs on Aug 7, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

What are other leading Reds blogs?

Not including MLB- or Newspaper-affiliated blogs?

I’m sure there could be some sort of credential-ing-process put in place if MLB teams were serious about expanding access to the top couple fan blogs.

by Jake Liscow on Aug 7, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's Subjective

I have my cycle of sites and someone else might have their own. But that’s the big question: who do you pick, and based on what criteria, to give even limited access?

My suggestion has been to have 2-3 different “Blogger Days” where you invite 3-4 sites (one person per) at a time. You put a media relations dept. person with that group, teach them the ropes, protocols, rules and required professionalism and ethics, and shadow them around the clubhouse as they work the room.

Then, just before going up to the pressbox (clubhouse closes 45 minutes before first pitch), have a quick group meeting and go over what they did right and what they did wrong so they learn from the experience. Basically, you coach these sites along and cultivate a new generation and media for the team “brand.”

After a handful of visits the sites will have the routine and understand the professionalism mandated, and the sites and teams mutually benefit.

My idea has been partially well-received, but it’s all in the talking and discovery phase now.

by Mr. Redlegs on Aug 7, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is an excellent and straight forward plan.

I worry that it would be kind of high-cost for ballclubs, but I think it would be an excellent step forward as media moves to the internet and revenue becomes internet ad-based (which will soon stop working due to ad blockers).

by Jake Liscow on Aug 7, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

But There's Always Obstacles

Like I said, some parts of my idea have been well-received but, of course, there’s always additional issues. To me, the most common issue and perhaps the biggest obstacle is provincialism.

Look around. Next year the Reds will be down to the Enquirer and MLB.com covering. I can remember the days that the pressbox at Riverfront was packed. I’d come in from out of town and be on the last row. Barely. There were daily papers large and small covering the team. Now, they all use a content-share agreement, meaning readers are getting the same coverage over multiple outlets.

The teams need to be perceptive, intuitive and creative in caretaking of their “brand.” They have to go OUT to the new media, not sit back and wait for the old media to come to them. The Dodgers, Mavericks and Capitals already understand this.

So, when the Reds come home and they have a game on TV, inevitably there will be a TV camera shot that shows the pressbox. Look hard. See how many empty seats there are and ask yourself, do the Reds have a clue and does that grumpy old mascot have a point?

by Mr. Redlegs on Aug 7, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I'd never argue that there aren't obstacles.

But teams need to get a clue and adjust to the changing media environment.

by Jake Liscow on Aug 7, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

hmmmm
Fan blog was allowed a one-day pass to the Yankees at spring training and was caught soliciting players for outside business interests.

I’d love to know what blog that was…

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Aug 7, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry, Don't Know

I was just told “Yankees blog” in my discussion with the Redskins people who had their own issue.

by Mr. Redlegs on Aug 7, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

BTW -

Those are all huge money teams. I wonder if smaller markets have had any issues?

by Jake Liscow on Aug 7, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Issue of Professionalism. . .

. . . and ethics are THE biggest factors in holding back fan blog access, so I don’t think market size is a consideration there. Basically, the teams don’t want to babysit the fan site “reporters” 8 hours of the day to make sure nothing happens. But you make an excellent observation.

by Mr. Redlegs on Aug 7, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess I'm being stereotypical..

But I’m not surprised that a Cowboys, Redskins, or Yankees fan would try to pull some sort of shit. I wonder how other teams’ experiences with bloggers have gone – when positive?? Or if other teams have even dabbled in it? A basic ethics and training program would suffice though. Maybe you have an entrepreneurial idea on your hands, Redlegs.

by Jake Liscow on Aug 7, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think that's fair

I think it’s probably just ignorance, and that’s found all over the place. (Well, that stealing photo equipment thing is obviously crossing a line.)

One Yankees blog I read regularly has served as a stepping stone to actual jobs in sports journalism for its writers, and they’ve written some interesting stuff about the difference between being a fan and being a journalist. For example, you are not allowed to cheer in the press box. It doesn’t matter if the home team just hit a walkoff home run in the bottom of the 9th in game 7, you don’t cheer in the press box. If you do, you’re kicked out.

Closer to home…back when Bubba was with the Columbus Clippers, a former Bats intern begged Jim Kelch to get his autograph for her when the Clippers came to Louisville. He refused. He said it would break every rule there was. I don’t think a blogger would know that.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Aug 7, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

FWIW

They did eventually get her her autograph. When Bubba became a Red, somebody got him to sign a batting helmet for the former intern (who was with the Rays by then). So apparently, there are ways to get it done.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Aug 7, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

well i mean i am guessing if Hal or Marty were to ask

they could get it, because they have been around so long, especially if it were like they have a very ill nephew or something like that, but it probably can’t be a regular request.

Bloop

by justin007000 on Aug 7, 2009 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I see a number of problems

1. No reporting is unbiased, no matter what you want to think. Reporting is only considered “unbiased” when it agrees with your preconcieved notions – despite the fact that Sean Hannity has been shown to edit and splice tapes to make his point (and leave out critical, contrary information), millions of people think he’s “unbiased”.

2. Reporting on your home team is going to be biased. Whoever would cover the Reds, for instance, would be watching with the preconcieved notions that (1) the wrong players are on the field, (2) the pitchers will be mishandled, (3) Baker will make a number of in-game managing mistakes, and so on; anything that happens on the field, and thus is written about, will be reported with these things in mind. Further, do you really think a Cubs fan would want to read what I have to say about their team?

3. As Mr. Redlegs keeps trying to point out, and everyone still seems to be ignoring, is that access to the players and front office is highly controlled. SBN, or any news organization, isn’t going to get to waltz right into the clubhouse and ask Volquez about his rehab, or Taveras about his pictures of Castellini with the goat. They will have to prove they belong, either by SBN getting a press pass (by proving to be a legitimate news agency) or the writer becoming a member of the BBWAA (by being a baseball writer for a number of years).

4. THIS IS A JOB. You don’t show up, have a couple of hot dogs, enjoy the game, ask a couple of questions afterwards, and go home. You have to spend hours at the ballpark, both before and after the game; you have to write a quality article after every game. Rinse and repeat 162 times a year, plus spring training.

5. Then, SBN is going to make money on the article – do you think they’re in it just for shits and grins? As such, after all of the hours every day that the writers commit to producing the content, the writers should expect to be paid.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Aug 7, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly

Which is why I don’t think SBN is going to start covering games. The entire SBN platform is a series of fan discussion sites, and none of them are considered professional news sources, nor do they claim or inspire to be. It’s not impossible that team coverage will eventually move to a solely online platform, but it won’t be through sites like this one.

"We, as for me all seasons you are affected peculiarly in the edge of my seat and are happy concerning the fact that the Adam Dunn fan has been mixed up exactly." - Reynard-san

by BK on Aug 7, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which is kind of sad to me,

because I think the people we have a RR would be damn good at it.

by Jake Liscow on Aug 7, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

And that comment

speaks directly to my first point. Newspapers and newspaper reporters provide a needed service, but in our new “everything is free on the interweb” society, people refuse to see it – worse, they refuse to see that it is the content that those newspaper reporters are producing that they are reading for free.

Huffington Post is probably the largest blog out there; how many reporters do they employ? As far as I can tell, only one whose only function seems to be to try to crash lobbyist parties; everything else they publish is someone else’s content.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Aug 7, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

For Free?

Nevermid

One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.
George Carlin

by Madville on Aug 7, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

this article bothers me… It is almost as if Hal is willing retiring. Especially the last sentence, “Riley said the newspaper has had a long tradition of covering the Reds and will reassess it in light of McCoy’s retirement.” That makes it seem that the paper is surprised and it was Hal’s choice….

Bloop

by justin007000 on Aug 7, 2009 11:37 AM EDT reply actions  

typical PR spin

They are making it sound like it was Hal’s choice. That is commonly done when someone is fired. It lets them save face and claim it was their decision.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Aug 7, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

typical PR spin

They are making it sound like it was Hal’s choice. That is commonly done when someone is fired. It lets them save face and claim it was their decision.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Aug 7, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

that is all well and good

except hal wrote otherwise in his blog on DDN’s site.

Bloop

by justin007000 on Aug 7, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

the article

was probably written for the print version before Hal’s post went up.

And they probably figure a lot their readership don’t read blogs anyway.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Aug 7, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is upsetting.

Hal was one of the reasons why I fell in love baseball and one of the reasons why I got into this dying field.

Growing up, if a family member was passing through an area where the DDN was, I always asked them to pick me up a copy. Reason: Hal. When the DDN finally launched a site I was on it every day. Reason: Hal.

What infuriates me the most about this is that Hal, of all the ‘old timers’ still covering sports, deserves this the least. Unlike the rest of his generation, he actually embraced the Internet. He understands and gets it. His blog is great. To see idiots like Peter King and Woody Paige still making money (and still being completely oblivious to the inner workings of the industry) while treating the Internet like a ‘fad,’ makes me sick.

Sports writing is one of the trully unique American art forms. To see talented writers dropped, it’s maddening.

My best to Hal. I hope he continues to blog. I would also love to see him take some time and write a book about his decades with the Reds: players, managers, owners, games, the good years and the bad.

I would buy that book in half a second. And I know it would be epic.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Aug 7, 2009 3:11 PM EDT reply actions  

Agree with it all

Except that sports writing isn’t uniquely American. You should read some of the British write ups of soccer games. I feel pretty confident that India and South Africa, for instance, can rhapsodize about cricket, and likewise folks in Sydney about Aussie Rules Football, or those in Auckland about the All-Blacks.

Seriously though, some of their turns of phrase are just amazing.

by Brendanukkah on Aug 7, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

What I meant by uniquely American is that

early American sports writers, much like early comic book writers, perfected the art form and turned it into something specifically cultural.

Prior to the purple prose of American boxing, baseball and horse racing writers, all sports writing was rather bland and was nothing more than a moment-by-moment breakdown of events. American sports journalists changed that — to them games became much more than who, what, where, when and why.

Guys like Jake Beckley became ‘Old Eagle Eye’ thanks to writers. Player’s/manager’s/etc. exploits became epic, not just ordinary.

The rest of the world caught on later (mostly due to American writers covering boxing over seas) and became quite brilliant at it as well.

To come back to the comic book analogy, there would be no Grant Morrison or Warren Ellis without Bob Kane or Stan Lee. I do think that (like comics), for the most part, foreign sports writers are much better than American writers, right now. That said, there’s no denying where the form came from.

Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans

by Farneyismycopilot on Aug 7, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

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