I Am Outraged at _____ For Volquez's Tommy John Surgery
Edinson Volquez had surgery on Monday to repair damage done to his elbow. It turns out that surgery ended up being of the Tommy John™ brand, with an additional repair done to a damaged flexor tendon. Volquez is expected to miss 12 months and likely won't be fully healthy until the start of the 2011 season.
Once again, we have proof that (please choose one) Dusty Baker | The World Baseball Classic | Dominican Winter League | Yo Gabba Gabba is bad for pitchers. It is outrageous that pitchers are expected to (please choose one) throw more than 110 pitches in a game | pitch all year long | wear their hat straight | date Dusty's daughter. Because of the careless acts of (please choose one) the organization | Major League Baseball | violent video games | President Obama, Volquez is now going to be lost to the Reds for basically the entire 2010 season. Hopefully this event will help everyone learn a lesson about (please choose one) old school insanity | rushing young pitchers | foreigners | leaving jch24 alone with your wife. It's ridiculous that this even had to happen!
Now you too can express your hatred for whatever pet subject you think caused Volquez's injury without putting much thought into it. Just pick your choice from each selection and cut and paste!
Here's the thing. I've read at least 5 different articles/theories from people, all espousing a different cause for Edinson Volquez's injury. The most common theories are that we should blame Dusty Baker, or the World Baseball Classic, or the Dominican Winter League. The problem is that, while all of those are factors, the answer is never so simple as to single out just one thing. Managing pitcher health is an art form more than a science. There has yet to be a clear cut theory as to how much work a pitcher can handle, and throwing one specific topic out there as the true cause of the injury is plain foolish. Nothing is learned about the process as a whole by placing the blame in just one spot.
Personally, I blame Volquez himself for the injury. He's the only common link through all of these things. And I am furious about it!!!!
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yeah, I tried to incorporate that
but I couldn’t remember the rapper’s name. Gangsta rap is the cause of most problems in the western world though.
"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty
by Slyde on Aug 4, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I believe that's closer to reggaeton than gangsta rap
by Brendanukkah on Aug 4, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm white
everything is rap is gangsta rap.
"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty
"Everything is rap is gangsta rap"
That sounds like you were quoting a rap song – where’d you get that from?
He sits alone...Reds are not home.
I never understand this argument.
Right, so we’re not allowed to implicate factors because (a) there are multiple factors, and (b) we don’t know their relative importance.
I’m with you on not complaining without evidence, but saying that the existence of other factors means that one should avoid all culpability is rather ridiculous. And yet we hear this when people complain about Dusty’s insistence that Taveras bat leadoff (do you think that moving Taveras to eighth would make this a winning team?!?!?), or his refusal to field the best players, or whatever. I get that one factor isn’t everything, but that doesn’t mean that we should ignore it.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
I didn't make my point well
By no means am I saying that any of those are not a factor or that we shouldn’t point out the issues. The problem I have is with people pointing to one thing and saying, “THAT IS IT!!!!” My problem is more with the wording of the conversation. I like to look at the entire picture, not pick out the single things that make the point that I want to make (though admittedly I do fall into that trap as well).
"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty
I won't speak for Slyde
Especially because he probably disagrees with me…
But there is no proof that (1) pitching in winter ball, (2) high pitch counts, or (3) Dusty Baker make a pitcher more susceptible to arm injury. Pitchers get hurt all the time; pitchers who have no connection to any of (1), (2), or (3) sometimes need TJ surgery. Pitching is an unnatural motion that puts lots of torque on body parts that aren’t really designed to take alot of torque.
Bottom line, unless you can show that Volquez pitched when he was hurt, I’m going to chalk it up to “just one of those things”.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
Oh, I agree in this case.
I don’t think there’s much evidence to tie any of these explanations to the outcome. However, in general I don’t think the argument he made really works: just because there are other factors, I still have no problem with people pointing to one contributing factor. Assuming there’s a reason to suggest it contributed, which is hard to come by here.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
I thought you were going to say it was
Eve Plum in Alice’s bedroom by the kitchen with the dog.
by fourrunhomer on Aug 4, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
why can't teams prevent players from playing in winter ball?
it seems like if they can prevent players from playing charity basketball, they can prevent them from playing in winter ball.
Bloop
An Innocent question
Do teams really prohibit them from playing or is it encouraged?
If you're not having fun, stop participating.
thanks for this post
it’s ridiculous to blame anything. volquez was not overused. and nobody ever points to the fact that the vast majority of those who pitch in the WBC and winter ball are not hurt.
people get hurt. it happens. i just wish he had the surgery when he first got hurt so we didn’t miss him for all of 2010. :(
is there any data that says that a higher percentage of those who played in the WBC got hurt than those who abstained?
Bloop
by justin007000 on Aug 4, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
someone did a breakdown during the classic
but i can’t remember who or where it was – maybe justin. and the answer was no. it was in response to that poorly written article in USA today about the injuries.
Dusty does not have a great
history with young pitchers, that having been said, maybe it just happened??
Didnt Dusty manage the Kerry Wood debacle?…)I am asking because I do not know)
Maybe the pitching coach should have seen something….beats me….all I know is it is another heartbreaking loss for this franchise…..which has suffered way too many in the last few years.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Dusty was in charge for the Prior and Wood injuries, which gave him his reputation as an arm-wrecker.
the cubs fans were outraged at him.
but they’re all retarded…
http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2009/08/04/is-dusty-baker-to-blame-for-edinson-volquezs-arm-problems/
that writer feels the Rangers are partly to blame.
how fun it is to find so many reasons for such a common pitching injury.
personally,
there have been a few times where i’ve thought his arm action and delivery could cause arm problems. obviously you could say that about a lot of guys, but his especially seems to rely more on the arm than the body. brantley mentioned it last year how he’d tend to whip his arm harder later in games out of fatigue, so that could have contributed as well. ryan dempster developed bad throwing habits and eventually they just caught up to him. obviously he was able to come back and play well, so there’s hope for EV yet.
I think the Volquez injury really sucks.
That’s my final verdict on the matter.
-j
My blog: Basement-Dwellers.com
Also: Beyond the Boxscore
It is not all that hard to point the fingerof blame. if fact I heatily endorse it:
I blame Jommy John.
I would also like to take a moment and give a tip of the hat to Jose Rijo as well as Bud Selig. While I’m at it I can’t forget to give a blame out to Adam Dunn, Corey Patterson and Wily Taveris.
One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.
George Carlin
So, you (the pointer) are responsible for Volquez's injury?
by Brendanukkah on Aug 4, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok Ok - I did it...I'm sorry I didn't think anyone would get hurt...
I couldn’t resist ‘thumbing’ my nose at reality and I forced his Voltroness to take the bet….I played upon his youth and vanity…it was easy – too easy…………….all those innings with extra warm ups…the kid believed me – the more you warm up the more innings you can pitch…I hate myself.
Adam dunn was my fault too…he’s just a nice a pie,,that big ol’ dufus…so easy to talk into those meaningless Home Runs…and all the time he thought that he was helping the team…
Forgive me Cool God for I knew exactly what I did.
One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.
George Carlin
worked for the Nazis
Will you stop it with the vegetables
by Man Mountain on Aug 4, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Just out of curiosity,
what are Volquez’ chances of returning from TJ surgery?
I havent tracked who has recovered from it and who hasnt….
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Around 100%, although as Charlie annoyingly and correctly noted yesterday, some people are repeat offenders
notably Mike Lincoln and there are others. But, elbow surgeries are ALMOST routine nowadays. Now, if hear the word “labrum” and surgery, then you should be very worried for the pitcher
Many pitchers come back from Tommy John surgery throwing even harder than they did before
It’s to the point where some asshole parents have suggested getting the procedure done on their high school kids to improve their arms. At any rate, it’s nothing to fear as far as surgeries go. The kicker is just being out for a year. Who wants to guess how effective Aaron Harang and Bronson Arroyo will be in 2011? I feel like we’ll have wasted their best years trying to field a winner.
he will be alright
unless he does something stupid like Rjio, and despite having his surgery in August, he tries to return in April.
Bloop
im outraged that the reds would allow him and cueto to pitch in the world games(classic). it’s just to much with the baseball seson and has obviously taken its toll on both. volquez with his arm injury and surgery and cueto with fatigue….hopefully
im gonna be all up on you like a spider monkey!
by remembering9ergods on Aug 4, 2009 1:40 PM EDT reply actions
They also allowed JC Sulbaran, Ramon Ramirez and Alexander Smit to pitch in the WBC
And Ramon Hernandez, Jerry Hairston, Jr. and Joey Votto played in it as well. Also, the Dominican crashed out of the WBC fairly early on, which limited how much Volquez and Cueto actually pitched. Many players opted not to play in the WBC, but (and someone will have to back me up or correct me) I seem to recall that being of their own volition, rather than any vocal prohibition from their clubs.
Their clubs cannot vocally protest it, since the WBC is a product of MLB and
publicly and loudly condemning it and keeping your players from it would probably get you fined.
Unofficially, though? Well, who knows what they tell the guys.
Cueto may be fatigued (he certainly doesn’t throw strikes like he used to or heat down in the zone), but his start was based on a low BABIP. At this point, Johnny’s good, but he’s not 2.39 ERA for a season good. Be nice if he somehow avoids taking a year off for surgery.
The WBC is a sham anyway
It needs to go away. If it is to remain, then have it after the World Series.
First time I shot her, I shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
I love it and I think less of anyone who deos not also love it*
*not true about the second part. Reasonable people can disagree
Must be Adam Dunn's fault
People Don't Kill People. Burning Couches Kill People.
by crolfer on Aug 4, 2009 3:46 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
from teh fay:
Taveras cf
Rosales 3b
Votto 1b
Phillips 2b
Gomes rf
Balentien lf
Gonzalez ss
Hanigan c
Cueto p. vs.
vs. LH Tom Gorzelanny (3-1, 5.19).
Obviously Scott Rolen is still feeling the effects of the beaning. First start as a Red for Wlidimir Balentien.
I heard that they’re hope for an 8 p.m. start. The Ohio River level might be at field level by then.
Hanigan 8......................
OBP .250 .250 1-2… .220 7… .400 8…
god I hate Dusty Baker more than anyone (besides Ahmejinidad)sp
That is a really ugly lineup.
Seriously.
"We, as for me all seasons you are affected peculiarly in the edge of my seat and are happy concerning the fact that the Adam Dunn fan has been mixed up exactly." - Reynard-san
by BK on Aug 4, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
if i had to use those players i would go...
Hanigan c
Phillips 2b
Votto 1b
Gomes rf
Balentien lf
Rosales 3b
Gonzalez ss
Cueto p
Taveras cf
at least by batting in the 8 spot we won't have Hanigan clogging those bases up!
How did Dusty ever get a job managing?
People Don't Kill People. Burning Couches Kill People.
Seriously, how does Dusty justify not batting Hanigan 1 or 2?
Does anyone else hate Dusty Baker more than me?
yeah...
we’ve had to tell him several times that he’s crippled by racism. my dad is puerto rican… the things i’ve heard my grandpa say about him… and the president… whoa boy. thanksgiving was interesting last year.
Hanigan was 0-4 (with a walk) on Sunday in the 2 spot
Clearly he’s not ready for it.
Does Walt think Dusty’s a dumbass too? How could he not?
Isn't there a slanket somewhere you should be filling with your farts?
by nycredsfan on Aug 4, 2009 4:20 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
that walk is the only reason he's not back in the two spot...
Dusty think Jo-eh hits better with 2 outs and no one on…
People Don't Kill People. Burning Couches Kill People.
Maybe Willie...
Should take some lessons from Kevin Youkilis Even aggressive baserunning!
People Don't Kill People. Burning Couches Kill People.
I bet LaLoser laughs right in Dusty's face
Say I heard Walt on the TV with Chris and the Partially lobotomized George Grande…Walt was more inarticulate I…even after several recreational beverages and a few circa 1970 capsules of MDA…
Walt sounds old and in the way…and believe me I know all about brain atrophy.
One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.
George Carlin
I meant to say that Walt rambles more and says less than I.
One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.
George Carlin
I blame Tim Kremchek
So there.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Terrible...
Honestly being a reds fan for 20 years now its getting old…I’m past the days of Eric Milton and his bull but honestly Walt isn’t doing much better so far…true he just took ahold of the gm spot but I mean seriously when you’re hitters include taveras/gomes/dickerson/etc. its no wonder we can’t win…and whoever the jokester was that even asked the question of why isn’t hanigan hitting leadoff, I mean seriously you must not understand baseball…much like the reds organization you must think ramon hernadez alex gonzo and now a late add scott rolen are going to do ANYTHING….I am sick of the lets sign a veteran who is CLEARLY on the downslope of their career to a multimillion dollar deal…last time I checked we aren’t the team that should be renting a player…I mean who couldn’t have told you ramon and alex would be terrible…I honestly would rather see dusty baker out there playing short than gonzo…maybe no one realized this when signing him but taveras has ALWAYS been terrible! To add to those Great players we have Jay Bruce looking like Adam Dunn with defense, Phillips still swings..misses..and then falls because he swung so hard…it is embarrassing…at this point I’d rather give the money I would be spending at the park to the homeless guy asking for some booze money on campus at least someone would be getting some enjoyment…
by CrosleyFieldSluggers on Aug 4, 2009 11:41 PM EDT reply actions
Why so down on Hanigan as a leadoff man?
He makes some of the best contact on the team and has the highest OBP this side of Joey Votto. Sure, he’s not a prototypical leadoff guy, but you’re not sacrificing power the way you were when Bob Boone batted Dunn leadoff. Put it this way: we got Taveras for his speed and basestealing ability, even put up a counter to 100 SBs. Instead, Taveras’s OBP is under .300 and he’ll be lucky to get 30 SB on the season. Why not try someone who will at least get on base, for the likes of Votto and Rolen to drive in?
by Brendanukkah on Aug 4, 2009 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions
He used to anyway.
Not so much recently
One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.
George Carlin
On the Edinson Subject
If you guys watch him pitch you can see an elbow injury happen look at what happened to Liriano when your mechanics put stress on your elbow it only holds up so long…it doesn’t matter if you throw 110 pitches a start or 30 pitches if your mechanics are high torque on the arm its gonna give…nolan ryan threw a million pitches all the time he turned out ok id say…and lets not forget that the human arm is not made to throw overhand…so please stop blaming dusty baker HE IS THE BEST MANAGER WE’VE HAD SINCE LOU…you can’t win when you’ve got what amounts to a Triple-A team at best
by CrosleyFieldSluggers on Aug 4, 2009 11:46 PM EDT reply actions
Jack McKeon and Davey Johnson were both better then Dusty
Heck, I’d be tempted to rank Pete Mackanin higher than Dusty.
by Brendanukkah on Aug 4, 2009 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions
You didn't respond in caps
So you must not have the same convictions as CFS.
by ken on Aug 5, 2009 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Ignoring anything having at all to do with pitching
There’s Corey Patterson, Willy Taveras, and his “tossed salad” method of lineup construction to get past. There’s a reason BleedCubbieBlue’s series preview was called ‘Did You Ever Think You’d Be This Glad To See Dusty Baker?’
So no, I’d submit that he’s not the best manager we’ve had since Lou. I’d say he’s just about the worst.
"I heard he punched Cowboy in the face, grabbed his own balls and said: 'Clutch this.'" ~ obc
You have to remember that a lot of the crappy players on this team are this fault
He told Walt to bring in a leadoff hitter, and that’s where Willy Taveras came from. Corey was here last year solely because of Dusty. He doesn’t have to play Gonzalez every day with Janish sitting there on the bench, but he chooses to anyway. Maybe he isn’t responsible for Volquez’s arm injury, and maybe he’s a good presence in the clubhouse, but his lineups and in-game moves are worse than any other manager this team has had in my lifetime, even Boone and Narron.
"We, as for me all seasons you are affected peculiarly in the edge of my seat and are happy concerning the fact that the Adam Dunn fan has been mixed up exactly." - Reynard-san
by BK on Aug 5, 2009 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Don't forget that he brought in Jacque Jones!
by Brendanukkah on Aug 5, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd give him that
But then again, giving him credit for Chase Weems now seems a lot less impressive.
"We, as for me all seasons you are affected peculiarly in the edge of my seat and are happy concerning the fact that the Adam Dunn fan has been mixed up exactly." - Reynard-san
by BK on Aug 5, 2009 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions

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