Who loses to the losers? Reds fall, 5-4.
by Brendanukkah on Aug 16, 2009 5:10 PM EDT
in Game Threads
102 comments
Joe Nuxhall Memorial Honorary Star of the Game
Josh Willingham. Ryan Zimmerman hit the two run base hit to win the game, but Willingham went 3-4 at the plate with a double and a home run, scoring twice and driving in three runs.
Key Plays
- The game was scoreless until the fourth inning, when Adam Dunn led off with a double, and Willingham followed with his 19th home run of the year. The Reds would have trouble getting those two out all game.
- Often a lead of any size seems too daunting to overcome for the Reds, but in the fifth inning they battled back. Ryan Hanigan led off with a single and Lehr sacrificed him to second. Hanigan went to third on a groundout by Willy Taveras. Drew Sutton then walked, and Joey Votto continued to actually play baseball by hitting a single to the outfield to drive in Hanigan. Up stepped Jonny Gomes, who's been enjoying Washington pitching. BAM! Over the fence went the baseball, and a 2-0 deficit had turned into a 4-2 lead.
- In the sixth inning, the Dunn-Willingham combination bit Lehr again, as they both hit doubles to lead off the inning. Dunn's run made the score 4-3, and a wild pitch by Lehr put Willingham on third base with no outs. Fortunately, he was caught stealing home, and the inning passed without further damage.
- With two outs in the bottom of the sixth, Lehr hit a double, and Willy Taveras singled, then stole second. Runners on second and third with a chance to add some Great American Insurance runs, but Drew Sutton struck out.
- Dusty turned to his bullpen in the seventh inning, using Jared Burton and Danny Ray Herrera. Then in the eighth, Nick Masset came in to retire Ronnie Belliard before giving way to Arthur Rhodes. Rhodes then hit Adam Dunn with a pitch, gave up a single to Josh Willingham, and then pinch hitter Ryan Zimmerman hit a dying quail out to right field. Chris Dickerson, who replaced Gomes as part of a double switch (even though Balentien had just batted, and Gomes - our only power threat - was due to come up 4th in the ninth inning), couldn't make the shoestring catch and instead deflected the ball back in towards the infield. Drew Sutton came out half-heartedly to retrieve it and lob the ball back in, but Willingham alertly flew around the bases to take advantage and scored from first. Two runs, and the Reds had squandered the lead.
via FanGraphs
Other Notes
- Arthur Rhodes got the loss, his first decision of the year.
- Adam Dunn was hit by a pitch twice in this game. For the series, he went 4-8 with two doubles, a home run, six walks, five runs scored, and those two HBPs.
- Reds pitchers allowed no walks in this game.
- The Reds only have seven more wins than the Nationals. Washington won the season series, 4-3.
- Josh Willingham's 19th homer gave the Nats three players with more home runs than Reds leader Jay Bruce's 18. Dunn has 31 and Ryan Zimmerman has 24. Votto and Phillips both have 17 and Gomes's blast today gives him 15 - in 196 plate appearances. He has four in his last three games.
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i was kind of hoping the game would go into extras. It was just ridiculous how many pitchers Dusty used in in the span of 3 innings.
How much longer til Dusty's gone?
by in_Votto_We_Trust on Aug 16, 2009 5:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
no one's ever used set-up men to set-up stuff before. Just crazy
by timb116 on Aug 16, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seems like Dusty was missing David Weathers
Otherwise, Rhodes pitches the seventh, Weathers pitches the eighth, and Coco gets the save.
by Brendanukkah on Aug 16, 2009 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That sillyness was compounded by the fact that Dusty subbed Gomes out
and replaced him with Dickerson instead of removing Balentien. Then he put Nix in next inning. I think it was an “Everybody Plays” day. If it’d gone extras they would have had only Cordero available and Barker and Tatum off the bench.
He also left Rhodes in to face a series of righties rather than just leaving Masset in to face Dunn.
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Aug 16, 2009 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention the fact that there's not hope Coco gets used in any high leverage situations
that aren’t the ninth inning. And rarely, if ever, for more than 3 outs.
The Reds really are stuck in the dark ages. Pittsburgh is at least wising up as an organization. Soon enough they’ll give us the keys to the basement.
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Aug 16, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
fuzzy math
it seems Adam was on base 12 of 16 plate appearances for an OBP of .750 this series.
"I piss excellence"
by obc2 on Aug 16, 2009 5:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
but he's a loser, right? It's that attitude that's a problem. Being on base all the time and driving in runs can't make up for sitting on a couch
by timb116 on Aug 16, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
clownboy told me so
Dunn got hit, he said, so that he wouldn’t strike out.
Like he did in his other atbats.
OH WAIT. He doubled in those. Must’ve been due.
by bbjones on Aug 16, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
his resume
doesnt have any championships on it so, yeah, i guess he is a loser.
"I piss excellence"
by obc2 on Aug 16, 2009 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I assume you mean Dunn
and not Rosales.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on Aug 16, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I'm making fun (good naturedly) at something obc said to me a few months ago regarding the Dunn
by timb116 on Aug 16, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
basically
AD is Dave Kingman, without the glove or arm. But with a much better sense of humor.
"I piss excellence"
by obc2 on Aug 16, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you know this is wrong
"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty
by Slyde on Aug 16, 2009 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's a Cubs fan again, ignore him.
"I heard he punched Cowboy in the face, grabbed his own balls and said: 'Clutch this.'" ~ obc
by Ash on Aug 16, 2009 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
as a 23 year old 3B
Kingman’s fielding avg was .932
EE’s was .915 at the same age.
Warrants mentioning.
"I piss excellence"
by obc2 on Aug 16, 2009 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's talking about players from other teams. Ignore him.
"I heard he punched Cowboy in the face, grabbed his own balls and said: 'Clutch this.'" ~ obc
by Ash on Aug 16, 2009 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
devils advocate
its worth stirring up a little conversation, this place is a morgue lately.
"I piss excellence"
by obc2 on Aug 16, 2009 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dunn is Kingman?
Kingman
7,429 at bats…..608 walks Most walks in a season was 62 at age 36. In his first six season in the majors, here’s his walks…51, 41, 37, 34, 28, 28.
Dunn
5,239 at bats…..886 walks. Multiple 100-walk seasons.
Yeah, they’re similar. Whatever.
"T-Virus hitting leadoff? CHILD PLEASE!"
--- Ochocinco
by cesarhernandez on Aug 16, 2009 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, Adam Dunn Bashers....
…notice who is missing his offensive production now. But hey, he didn’t hustle, struck out too much, and wasn’t a gold glover in left. Cincy’s offense has never been the same since Adam’s departure, but I’m sure you’re still thankful that our idiot savants in our front office listened to the radio talk show fans and announcers and replaced Dunn with people who really try hard and get their uniforms dirty while compiling a .650 OPS. We should send Marty Brennaman’s skull to Washington to have it examined, for cancer in the baseball knowledge lobe.
by tonywf on Aug 16, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
/poorly aimed rant'd
Baseball must be a great game to survive the fools who run it.— Bill Terry
by nycredsfan on Aug 16, 2009 11:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I'd Agree...
…if there were intelligent fans and front office workers in Cincinnati who understood what it took to win baseball games. Instead, I get a lecture on how we’d be a fifth place team with Dunn and that he is ‘dogging it.’. Dogging it? Hitting 40 home runs, 100 runs, 100 ribbies, 100 walks, 900-plus OPS, year after year, dogging it? These are the same fools who complained about Eric Davis not living up to being the next Willie Mays (I’ll never forget the way the lumpens booed him back in ‘88 and ’89 in the games I went to, and the talk show fools attacking him for being injured too often, striking out to much, etc., etc.). As much as I love this team, we suffer some of the dumbest fans in baseball. If ’putting up the numbers’ of Adam Dunn is dogging it, then give me a DNA splicer so we can replicate him, and when my lineup filled with eight Dunns crushes your lineups of hustling out machines, you’ll have to come up with a new excuse for how poorly Dunn is playing.
by tonywf on Aug 19, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the Reds are a 5th place ballclub with or without Dunn
"I piss excellence"
by obc2 on Aug 16, 2009 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hell, with him and his lack of championships, they are probably a seventh place club
Does anyone know how Brandon Larson did? I remember watching his College World Series winning home run! It was exciting and he was at that moment directly responsible for his team’s championship. I bet he went on to be a fabulous major leaguer
by timb116 on Aug 17, 2009 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dunn did not want to be here
He showed it. The whole league – make that all of MLB – knew he was dogging it.
If he is playing better this year, more power to him. He’d be dogging it again if he was here.
You want to see some numbers on him? Were he to get moved to a playoff team yet this summer, you might see him really put out some effort and live up to his talent. Maybe.
And, even if you love his numbers now, I’d argue even his current numbers do not meet the expectations of his salary. He would be a poor value to the Reds.
by Deker on Aug 17, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, his eight million and twice the production of Willy Tavera barely make up for the fact he's only be paid
twice as much as Willy Taveras.
Dunn was traded last August with 30+ HR’s. It’s mid-August and he has 34 HR’s. If he was “dogging it” could we get some more of that around here? I wish ANY Red would out-perform Dunn’s Reds’ numbers from last year. Ain’t gonna happen.
Here’s a hint, Deker, you know baseball, accuse him of being terrible with the glove and having a bad WAR or UZR, because saying the worst offensive team in the NL this side of SF is better off without 31 HR’s and a .410 OBP is a bit silly, especially since he makes less money this year than he did last year (which is my way of cleverly sneering at the poor value comment).
by timb116 on Aug 17, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nationals win season series 4-3
and they’re considered the worst team in the league. Why don’t we all just stop watching these losers. it’d be great if no one showed up for a game. To make matters all the more sickening to me they all make more than I could make in ten years. I would like to truly suck at what I do and get paid in the six figures.
No matter where you're at, there you are
by cincyblue on Aug 16, 2009 6:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
do you have Dusty's daughter's phone number?
Baseball must be a great game to survive the fools who run it.— Bill Terry
by nycredsfan on Aug 16, 2009 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm half way there.
"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty
by Slyde on Aug 16, 2009 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have a three-figure salary?
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
by Gray on Aug 16, 2009 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I half way suck at what I do.
"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty
by Slyde on Aug 16, 2009 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well then
there’s two things we dont have in common. turns out im not as much like you as you thought.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 16, 2009 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly my biggest frustration
Even when the Reds looked like the .500 team they had the talent to be, they were losing to the losers.
I can live with, and expect, losses to good teams. It’s all these losses to the absolute dregs of both Leagues that have left me so frustrated. It really is a sign of poor coaching when you can get the team motivated for the good opponents (which happened pre-All Star Game), but don’t have them ready to play the weak teams. The Reds have consistently lost to bad teams over the last several years. We need a manager who can put it to a stop.
The Reds record vs. KC and the DC alone should put is proverbial head on the occupational chopping block at the conclusion of this season.
by Deker on Aug 16, 2009 8:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
"is" should be "his"
and the “his” is “Dusty’s”
by Deker on Aug 16, 2009 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are we allergic to small ball?
That’s like dragon type and dragon type. That makes perfect sense to me.
by Excalib8 on Aug 16, 2009 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, it's Dusty's fault that Johnny Ceuto can't pitch and drew Sutton can't throw the ball back to the infield
How he can lose with this All-Star line-up is a mystery
by timb116 on Aug 17, 2009 8:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea, it's a lineup that should lose
To the Dodgers, Giants, Cardinals, even the Cubs. NOT to the Nationals and the Royals.
Defend that bozo if you like, but come the end of the season, he’ll be looking for a job. Maybe PCL Fresno can use him.
by Deker on Aug 17, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong
And why shouldn’t The Reds lose to The Nats and The Royals? I suggest you take a long hard look at The Nationals and The Royals everyday lineup and compare it to The Reds, then re-evaluated your statement.I think everyone here thinks Dustman 2000 should go, but in not way do I believe that The Reds are better than The Royals or The Nationals.Though I’m not impress with The Royals hitters, I would take both The Royals and Nats teams roster over The Red any day of the week.
Nationals
Ryan Zimmerman – 3B
Cristian Guzman – SS
Ronnie Belliard – 2B
Adam Dunn – 1B
Jesus Flores – C
Josh Willingham -LF
Nyjer Morgan – CF
Elijah Dukes – RF
Royals
Mark Teahen – 3B
Yuniesky Betancourt -SS
Alberto Callaspo – 2B
Billy Butler – 1B
Miguel Olivo – C
David DeJesus – LF
Mitch Maier – CF
Jose Guillen -RF
To lazy to do the Pitchers
by Thebukkakebandit on Aug 17, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Poor Sutton
He screwed up, and he knows it.
"I went out and got the ball," Sutton said. "I looked at third. I thought the runner at third break down and stop. I guess he didn’t break down as much as I thought.
"That was completely my responsibility, my fault. I’ve got to be more heads up."
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on Aug 16, 2009 10:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Poor kid
Now Dusty will never let him see the light of day again. If only his last name was Taveras.
Baseball must be a great game to survive the fools who run it.— Bill Terry
by nycredsfan on Aug 16, 2009 11:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
It's more likely Dusty will decide that Dickerson missing the catch was the real problem.
A perfect excuse reasonable explanation for Willy continuing to start over C-Dick in center.
by RedsMasochist on Aug 17, 2009 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or Patterson
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
by btcoop71 on Aug 17, 2009 8:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's the bright side
So, Sutton blew a game in a season where we hope to finish less than 20 games out. If he learned something there that will pay benefits in 2010 or 2011, then it’s a cheap lesson.
If his comments are a real indication, then maybe he will learn that lesson and not blow it off.
by bbjones on Aug 16, 2009 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Poor Sutton
He just doesn’t appear to be that outstanding. Average fielder and so far a mediocre hitter. Maybe someone else would be interested in as part of a trade for someone who can actually play well at the MLB level.
One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.
George Carlin
by Madville on Aug 17, 2009 2:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
always a possibility...
People Don't Kill People. Burning Couches Kill People.
by crolfer on Aug 17, 2009 3:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So Crolfs when do you start school?
Are you going to Mizzou this year or is it next? My memory was never what is once was.
One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.
George Carlin
by Madville on Aug 17, 2009 6:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, going this year. Moving into the dorms on Wednesday...
School starts a week from today.
People Don't Kill People. Burning Couches Kill People.
by crolfer on Aug 17, 2009 8:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It only seems like yesterday that you were just a high schooler
So what’s going on with your GF (I presume that a guy who is as multi-faceted as you must have at least one)?
And what about your dorm situation..how many roommates..are any of them gay?
And most importantly is the dorm co-ed?
Where the hell is this college anyway? Maybe you can organize a Mizzou chapter of Red Reporter.
But alas…we may never hear from you until next summer, what with bug study, heavy drinking and college women!
I hear Mizzou has a great faculty:
Seriously good luck, knock ’em dead!
your Pal
Mads
One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.
George Carlin
by Madville on Aug 17, 2009 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
crofer, when i lived in columbia i stayed at home instead of the dorms ...
… of course, i also had my own apartment in my parents basement. But nothing about dorm life made any sense to me when i already lived in town.
"I never use a big word when a diminutive one will work." — Pete Mackanin.
by joshuar9476 on Aug 17, 2009 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
GF... Yeah, i had one... until yesterday, which would be why I didn't sleep at all...
Have one roommate
Co-Ed dorm… Don’t even care about that now
College is right here in Columbia, but there’s no way I could stay at home… bleh
People Don't Kill People. Burning Couches Kill People.
by crolfer on Aug 17, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That sucks, dude
Though hopefully you’ll find that entering college without a girlfriend will be the right way to go.
by Brendanukkah on Aug 17, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
definitely
all of the guys with hometown honeys were miserable their first semester in college.
"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty
by Slyde on Aug 17, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, man
I didn’t mean to hit a nerve…but time heals all wounds – just keep on fighting!
One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.
George Carlin
by Madville on Aug 17, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks guys
People Don't Kill People. Burning Couches Kill People.
by crolfer on Aug 17, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not betting on it... but we'll see
People Don't Kill People. Burning Couches Kill People.
by crolfer on Aug 17, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the fay has an outstanding blog post on his thoughts for next year ...
I’ve come to conclusion over the last couple of the days after talking to some Reds insiders that the best course of action this offseason will be to do as little as possible as far as free agents. I base this on a couple of things:
—There’s too much to fix, too little money to do it.
—The current big contacts are the reason the team has little money to do it.
—When you shop for bargain, it doesn’t often work out. As I wrote Sunday, “Some times you get lucky; some times you get Willy Taveras.”
—And, most importantly, for this team to win, it’s going to have to be with players it drafted and developed. Trying to get around that by patching holes with free agents (Alex Gonzalez, Francisco Cordero, Willy Taveras) hasn’t worked.
Apparently, now that Aaron Harang and Bronson Arroyo are pitching well, the Reds is less likely to trade them because Bob Castellini is hoping for a turnaround in the 2010. The trade for Scott Rolen hammered home that idea. Adding Rolen’s salary removed what little payroll flexibility the Reds had.
So how do the Reds fill the holes they have? If I’m running the team, Drew Stubbs is playing center field and leading off Tuesday night. He’s gets a six-week trial to prove himself. Brandon Phillips goes to shortstop, and the Todd Frazier experiment at second base moves to the majors. Wladimir Balentien plays every day.
I don’t know that any of the above are the answers. But if they fail, you don’t have to deal with their contracts.
The Reds fear the fans won’t buy a rebuilding job. I think they’ll embrace it.
best thing i’ve ever seen him post … and no errors either.
"I never use a big word when a diminutive one will work." — Pete Mackanin.
by joshuar9476 on Aug 17, 2009 9:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow, I actually agree with everything teh Fay is saying.
I have robot insurance.
by 3 Fast 3 Furious on Aug 17, 2009 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Reds fear the fans won’t buy a rebuilding job. I think they’ll embrace it.
Amen. As long as it is a full commitment to rebuilding, with a plan. I’ve been complaining since Castellini took over that they’ve had their feet in two different streams. There is no way that succeeds.
"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty
by Slyde on Aug 17, 2009 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
teh fay need to tape this article to jocko's front door
"Some times you get lucky; some times you get Willy Taveras." - Teh Fay
by joshuar9476 on Aug 17, 2009 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i guess i do disagree with the cordero part though ....
if we were wining more, then it would be beneficial to have that hammer in the bully … but when you’re losing every day, he just a $46 million DRH squeeze toy.
"Some times you get lucky; some times you get Willy Taveras." - Teh Fay
by joshuar9476 on Aug 17, 2009 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The thing is
I think both Krivsky and Jocketty would do a full on rebuild, but I don’t think Castellini would ever let them. The closest the Reds have come to a rebuilding step was 2003, but the farm system was shite after Bowden left. They don’t have the farm system right now to turn into the Rays, but it is healthy enough that if they had some budget to work with, they could make a nice mix of youth and free agents. I have a feeling that this is the Pirates plan for 2011. Then again, their farm system is a tick below the Reds, in my opinion.
"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty
by Slyde on Aug 17, 2009 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if we're gonna run out a AAA lineup, at least make it the AAA lineup that;s winning games
"Some times you get lucky; some times you get Willy Taveras." - Teh Fay
by joshuar9476 on Aug 17, 2009 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
At this juncture why not ?
Fay’s ideas make sense, although Cordero has done a more than acceptable job, he just costs way too much.
For the above changes to take place Bob would have to put his big boy pants on and remove Dusty Baker. Dusty’s continued rigidity in the face on constant losing has done nothing for the team. Sure there’s been injuries, every team has them. It is more than apparent that Dusty is not the right manager to develop a team of newbies into a contender.
So in a nutshell, I don’t see Fay’s approach happening and unless Walt and Bob pay attention to the facts and stats of the 2009 season 2010 will be pretty much the same. Look how well Votto, Hanigan, Dickerson and to a point Bruce have done this season. For the month of September bring up the kids and let ’em play.
One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.
George Carlin
by Madville on Aug 17, 2009 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's Dusty's fault that the team sucks?
by timb116 on Aug 17, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is Dusty's responsiblility to put the best team out on the field daily
That should mean playing the hot hand, having players with the highest OBP at the top of the line up, That should also mean having a pitcher warming up when a starter has gone fairly deep into a game and is losing it etc, etc,
Its not that its Dusty’s ‘fault’ – it is that Dusty’s not equipped with the kind of flexibility that is needed to improve the wins, improve the young players and to at least put a presentable team on the field most nights.
One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.
George Carlin
by Madville on Aug 17, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who is OBP stud on this team who should be batting higher
See, that’s the point. This team lacks people who get on base. Dickerson should be playing everyday instead of Taveras, but otherwise he’s sort of stuck with the suckiness, IMHO
by timb116 on Aug 17, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Earlier in the Season both C-Dick and Hanigan were flush with OBP
and C-Dick rode the bench while Hani batted 8th..e.g.
One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.
George Carlin
by Madville on Aug 17, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't agree with this:
If I’m running the team, Drew Stubbs is playing center field and leading off Tuesday night. He’s gets a six-week trial to prove himself.
If six weeks is enough to convince you that Stubbs is or isn’t the answer, you need to rethink how you evaluate players.
I’m also ambivalent about moving BP at this point in his career. He’s wrapping up his third straight decline in the field (by UZR), and at 28 it’s highly unlikely that he’ll get better. In 2006 this would’ve been worth a try, but at this point the ship has sailed. And is it just me, or does he look heavier this year?
by ken on Aug 17, 2009 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
did somebody hack ken's account?
I agree on the 6 weeks thing, though I want Stubbs in place of Taveras because I think Stubbs is exactly what they wanted Taveras to be when they signed him (excellent glove, gets on base, has speed).
The only reason I’d want BP at SS is if because it meant a better team. That is, if BP is a -3 fielder at SS, but we get a better bat at 2B with an adequate glove, I’d take that over signing a bad bat SS with a decent glove. It’s not like this team is loaded up with groundball pitchers anyway.
"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty
by Slyde on Aug 17, 2009 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BP's stopped returning my calls
I can’t say I disagree with your second paragraph as it relates to 2010. But what do you do in 2011 – bring Cozart up and move Phillips back to second? That’s a lot to ask of BP and could be difficult to execute from a personality management standpoint.
The “heavier” comment, btw, popped in my mind during that game where he tried to steal third after barely getting second on a bad tag (maybe a week ago). Not only was he out by a mile, but when he got up he just looked a little … bloated. Could be my imagination.
by ken on Aug 17, 2009 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think BP would complain if he was moved back to 2B
and, honestly, if he does, then ship him out of town. Team leaders aren’t supposed to be me-first, right? Just remind him that Pete Rose played wherever he was asked to play because all he wanted to do was win, or some crap like that.
"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty
by Slyde on Aug 17, 2009 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, except for this
the Reds is less likely to trade
I disagree with his contention that Arroyo and Harang’s contracts are that big and that free agent signings are the death of the team. Signing Alex Gonzalez was not a bad move; prior to his injury he was a plus defender and short and he didn’t make that much money. Taveras makes more morey than a fourth outfielder should, but his contract doesn’t hamper the team’s ability to acquire other talent. It’s his lack of talent that hurts the brains of the people watching him.
Lastly, moving Brandon to SS right now is a recipe for disaster. Brandon deserves some respect and consideration and moving him in the middle of the season is a joke (unless he came into the offense and begged to do it, which he hasn’t and won’t.) He needs a winter and spring training to take ground balls and re-learn his footwork. Lastly, I know Todd Frazier is the new Jesus and all, but he’s played three weeks of games at second. Haven’t we seen enough of guys “learning” to play in the majors. If Todd’s gonna be the 2nd baseman for 2010, he can win the job in Spring Training and have some time to learn the ropes.
Obviously, he’s right about Stubbs…..
Oh, and how surprising is it that Mr. wait ‘til 2010 (the Fay) has decided the Reds just can’t make any moves in the off-season which involve payroll. The Fay is always to parrot that line from management come August and September (“You might think the trades of Dunn and Griffey allow the Reds to spend money in the off-season, but…”)
The column he wrote there is as seasonal as my kids needing new backpacks to go back to school
by timb116 on Aug 17, 2009 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ways in which you are wrong
- Signing Alex Gonzalez was a bad move. It was exactly the kind of contract that bad teams sign over and over. He had a history of injuries and even when he was healthy, his play was never worth the money he was receiving on the contract. His 2007 season was completely out of character and the Reds were lucky they got that much out of him based on his prior history.
- You know Taveras was a stupid way to spend money. Why act like that $6M couldn’t have been useful in another fashion?
- BP has said he would move to shortstop if asked. What difference does it make if he moves now or moves in the Spring? He obviously needs to work at it. What’s the harm in him working at it now? Again, do what is best for the team. If it is not best for the team, then don’t do it. But let’s making excuses just to make excuses.
- Can you PLEASE stop doing this bullshit with Todd Frazier. Not a single person on this site acts like he is anything more than a solid prospect, yet for some reason you keep pretending we think he is a superstar. It’s getting annoying.
"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty
by Slyde on Aug 17, 2009 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I just disagree with your last point, there are people who definitely believe he is guaranteed to be great
- As to the other points, I don’t think 5 million for AGon is a terrible contract for a team with no SS. He had just come off of fine defensive seasons with the Sox.
- I’m not exactly sure how the Reds would have spent the 6 million they spent on taveras. I wish they wouldn’t have spent it. But, I don’t think they would have spent any better last winter (they never spoke with Abreu, Burrell, or Dunn, who signed below market deals….with that said, can you imagine the rage if they had signed Burrell to 8 million? I haven’t looked lately, but last I heard he completely stunk). I think the most disgusting part of his contract is the second year, because it will apparently be used to make sure the Reds CAN’T spend that money this off-season.
As for the BP thing, it’s more of a question of tactics than anything. Asking a player in the prime of his career to switch positions just seems bad form to me. This isn’t a softball diamond; there are real issues with that sort of switch. I just think you give the guy a chance to flail in March rather than in front of 15,000 people and an audience numbering in the tens. But, it’s not a “wrong/right” thing, I don’t thing, just a question of when.
Still, “Ways in which you are wrong”? Did you reject “Shut up asshole, ’cause I hate you” or “Dumbest Fucking Post I ever read” or “You suck” because they were too combative?
by timb116 on Aug 17, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
turns out my wheaties had some piss on them this morning
Even if Gonzalez had come off of a stupendous all around season, teams shouldn’t sign players based on a single year of data, especially not teams that are working in the confines of tighter budget.
The problem with both the Taveras and Gonzalez signings is that they were cases of throwing good money at bad players. This is why a clear understanding of replacement level and marginal dollars is important. Did the Reds need a shortstop? Yes. Does this mean you throw 3-years and $15M at the best you can get, even if he’s not that great? No.
This is the exact problem with the Reds having their feet in both streams. They want to rebuild. They know they need to, but they don’t want to drive fans away, so they sign crappy players to contracts that are unnecessary and it immediately turns into wasted money. It’s basically just grasping at straws, and until the Reds commit themselves to one stream or the other, they’re going to keep making the same mistakes over and over.
"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty
by Slyde on Aug 17, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And, perhaps the most interesting revelation of the Fay
is the idea they will do nothing. They have gaping holes, but there aren’t many options to fill them on the free agent market. So, maybe they won’t spend average money on a below average player?
by timb116 on Aug 17, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no, but six weeks last year convinced us to keep dickerson ...
and if jocko hadn’t screwed up by signing taveras, we’d be looking at a ROY candidate.
"Some times you get lucky; some times you get Willy Taveras." - Teh Fay
by joshuar9476 on Aug 17, 2009 9:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
fail ... that was supposed to be a reply
"Some times you get lucky; some times you get Willy Taveras." - Teh Fay
by joshuar9476 on Aug 17, 2009 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dickerson had put together two nice seasons in Louisville by the time he was called up
Which had sold me as much as his cup of coffee.
Saying Stubbs has six weeks to “prove himself” sounds like an ultimatum, which I don’t like. Though it’s possible Fay didn’t mean for his post to sound that harsh.
by ken on Aug 17, 2009 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd be wholly in agreement for a full-on rebuilding process.
I say blow it up, start over. If they’re going to do that, they need to tell us that they’re going to blow it up and actually stick to that. They can’t, as Slyde said, be in both streams.
If they say they’re going to blow it up, blow it up. Don’t jerk us around.
I have robot insurance.
by 3 Fast 3 Furious on Aug 17, 2009 10:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Bob won't ever let them blow it up
but the ultimate lesson here has to be that big contracts need to stop. Harang’s contract, when he signed it, was a steal. Arroyo’s was a questionable, though not ridiculous, extension. Cordero’s was foolish. Now they are all an excuse for why changes can’t be made.
The more I think about the Reds in comparison to the PIrates of the last 15 years, the more similarities I see. Signing big contracts to look like they are being competitive, then being hamstrung by those contracts when the team really needs to make some moves. The A’s have been shit the last 3 years, but to their credit, they rarely let themselves get locked into contracts they will hurt them in the future, even when things were going great for them. The only “bad” contract I remember them signing was the Chavez contract, and that was mainly because he got hurt.
"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty
by Slyde on Aug 17, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah and how's that gone for the A's. They haven't been competitive for three or more seasons
Seems to me signing Harden et al to contracts might have ensured success.
Baseball players are not all replaceable widgets (which is not an argument you’re making, just a point I wanted to make) and some of them are valuable for being above average or even doggone good. I think Billy is finding out something he suspected —once you capture lightning in a bottle, it’s sort of hard to re-capture it, even if you use the same bottle.
by timb116 on Aug 17, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not me that is saying the contracts are hamstringing the organization
If every big contract is going to be used as an excuse two years down the road, then the solution is to stop signing the big contracts.
And sorry, but I don’t consider 8 straight seasons of 87 wins or more to be “catching lightning in a bottle.” I’ll bet good money that the A’s win 85 games again before the Reds do.
"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty
by Slyde on Aug 17, 2009 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'll bet good money
the Pirates win 85 games again before the Reds do.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 17, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure about that
The Reds are still a lot closer to being competitive than the Pirates are. For all of their moves, they didn’t pick up many game changers this season.
"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty
by Slyde on Aug 17, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chase Weems!
Believe in your Weems!
by Brendanukkah on Aug 17, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
so the Reds have more talent right now. but im confident the Pirates know how to use their talent better than the Reds do.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 17, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No shit charlie...nail on the head
Hence my concern about dusty continuing as manager.
One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.
George Carlin
by Madville on Aug 17, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll bet bad money that the Royals win 85 before the Reds do
I have robot insurance.
by 3 Fast 3 Furious on Aug 17, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's possible. For all of his flakiness, I trust him more than I trust Jocketty
I just think sometimes you have to lock guys up for three years or so. Billy is right to abhor the eight year contracts and it’s hard to argue that he should have signed Tim Hudson, Barry Zito, and Mark Mulder to long-term deals, given what happened to them later.
But there are reasons to buy out arbitration and a free agent year so you can have budget certainity (does that phrase make sense, ’cause it did in my brain, but…)
My main beef is less with the contracts, which I see as reasonable, than with the constant excuse making by the front office. They can always point to their highest paid players and whine and I just don’t accept it. Every year I get to hear how this contract or that means the team cannot compete. It’s an insult to my intelligence from the club
by timb116 on Aug 17, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
which is why I say stop signing the contracts
because I don’t want to hear the excuses anymore.
"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty
by Slyde on Aug 17, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
AH! A reason I can get behind
I’m not sure it’s a recipe for success, but it might make hate them less and that would be cool. As I understand it, a fan is actually supposed to like his/her team. Sounds nice, but it’s been hard to do for the last 12 years or so.
by timb116 on Aug 17, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just saw this too
The only other team the Nationals have a winning record against (> three games) this season is Arizona. They’re 5-1 against the Diamondbacks, 4-3 against the Reds, and .500 or worse against every other team they’ve played more than three times.
by Brendanukkah on Aug 17, 2009 2:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Dunn will pay any price to defeat his old mates
by ken on Aug 17, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
his selfishness knows no bounds
"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty
by Slyde on Aug 17, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reds team sucks
It all starts at the top and it sucks all the way down. Management not only sucks, it stinks in the decisions being made. They must have forgotten that fans pay good money to get to the game so stop putting shit products on the field. Someone in the organization has got to be able to understand and appreciate talents. The way Dusty used his pitchers, he will screw their arms up and cost them their careers. Jacoby is never a great hitter and any starters on the ’75 Reds team can hit better and be a better hitting coach. Get Sparky back in there.
by Richard L on Aug 17, 2009 9:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Sparky was a flexible young guy who knew how to put a fucking line up together and a great batting order.
Now he’s really old and close to dementia.His sweatshirt spells: C L U E L E S S U.
One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.
George Carlin
by Madville on Aug 17, 2009 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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