Red Reposter - 6/26/09
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Hall o' Famer Hal "doubly salutes" Joey Votto for the way he's handled himself
Last night at the game, Votto had his two youngest brothers with him in the dugout, 9-year-old twins Ryan and Paul. It is fully evident now why Votto had such a tough time dealing with the death of his father. At this point, I really dont care at all that he had 4 hits and led the Reds to a win last night, you know? -
Votto helps Reds avoid sweep against Jays
"I always want to play well, definitely in front of family and friends, but had I had this big game and we had lost I’d have been very disappointed," he added. "The beautiful thing about baseball, is there is always a new day and it parallels life sometimes. You always get a new day. It was nice feeling good without thinking about the problems I’ve been having." -
Im sure you've heard the news by now
but in case you hadnt, Homer Bailey will get the start on Saturday against the Indians in place of the injured Edinson Volquez. Volquez looks to be out for a while too, so hopefully Bailey will get a good long look in the majors and make the most of it.
Also, Dusty talked about how Edwin Encarnacion is doing on his rehab stint. EdE has 2 homers and 6 RBIs in five games so far, but is only hitting .214. "That’s what we need: Him to be an RBI man," Baker said. "The .214 part doesn’t worry me too much. He must be turning his concentration up with runners on base." Whatever, but Baker also says we likely wont see Edwin back with the Reds when they return home after the weekend. "He might be. That’s only three or four more games. We don’t want him to come back and struggle. -
Josh Roenicke had a nice outing the other night in relief of Bronson Arroyo
but he didnt do it by throwing his 98 mph heater. He struck out Alex Rios in the 4th on 4 straight sliders. "I threw that pitch in 2007 a little, but called it a cutter but it had that slide action," Roenicke said. "Then I got away from it because I was having arm problems after an appendectomy. I thought it was because I was throwing those along with a knuckle curve. I brought it back this spring. It's been effective and really working well. [Catcher Ramon Hernandez] kept putting that three down and I kept throwing it. It helped me get out of some jams." -
Jayson Stark runs through the biggest mysteries in baseball thus far
like why the Phillies cant win at home and what's wrong with the Cubs offense. Toward the bottom though he mentions that he spoke to a scout that says the Reds have the best minor league talent in the NL Central and should be poised to make the big move that the other teams cant. -
FanGraphs looks at the criminal ways the Rockies are handling their outfield situation
arguing that Seth Smith is disgustingly underutilized. He has been sitting the majority of the time in favor of Ryan Spilborghs, who isnt having half the season that Smith is having. The Rockies will likely be looking to clear this logjam sometime soon, so my question is should the Reds be looking at either of these guys, and if so, who? -
MLBTradeRumors says AndyFan is headed to Japan
He signed a deal worth 400K to play for the Hiroshima Carp. Good luck Andy! -
The WPA Inquirer from THT
I kind of understand WPA and how it works and why it's good, but I think this article will further illuminate this darkened corner of my cortex. I hope so, I havent read it yet. It's kinda long and there's a lot of charts and stuff. -
Geovany Soto failed a drug test during World Baseball Classic
I didnt know baseball tested for marijuana. Should they even bother? Anyway, Soto has apologized and said it was "an isolated incident" (riiiiight). But DAYUM!! dude will be banned from international competition for two years. HT to ShysterBall. -
Here's another one via ShysterBall
This is from Sons of Steve Garvey, who offers you a transcript of a conversation between Eric Collins and Steve Lyons from a Dodgers game recently. Here's a taste:
Collins: I'm telling you, we're going to be head-to-head on this (debating the merit of stats analysis) all season long. There is a place —
Lyons: There is a place, a very small place, for the computer geeks that are now taking over the game of baseball. There is a place, but it's a small place. We're seeing way too much of it.
Collins: Now I'm going to fight that battle.
Lyons: None of those numbers — that UZR-mum thing that rates defense —
Collins: UZR. Ultimate Zone Rating.
Lyons: UZR. And your WHIPs and your OPSes. They don't show me what kind of heart the guy has. BABIP?
Collins: Batting Average on Balls in Play?
Lyons: Stupid. Doesn't tell me if the guy is a player. Doesn't tell me if the guy can play. Is he a gamer? Does he get dirty? Does he go out there and play hard? Is he a good teammate? None of that stuff tells me any of that. That's the guy I want.
Collins: That would be your Derek Jeter, we were talking about an inning ago.
Lyons: I'll take your computer and I'll toss it right off this balcony here.
You can imagine what happens next.
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41 comments
Comments
I'm rooting for Joey Votto to succeed more than I've rooted for any Reds player ever
Who deserves it more than Joey Votto?
"We, as for me all seasons you are affected peculiarly in the edge of my seat and are happy concerning the fact that the Adam Dunn fan has been mixed up exactly." - Reynard-san
by BK on Jun 26, 2009 11:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
who?
/janish’d
Isn't there a slanket somewhere you should be filling with your farts?
by nycredsfan on Jun 26, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
too soon
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on Jun 26, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow
even I consider that cold and heartless, and I am cold and heartless
by jacob brumfield on Jun 26, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Steve Lyons is stupid? Who knew
Oh, yeah, everybody who either watched him play or has heard him announce
by timb116 on Jun 26, 2009 11:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I disagree with calling anti-stats dudes "stupid"
just because things like, “Computers make baseball seem logical when it isn’t logical” make sense. A lot of those folks are reactionary, yes, and frightened of change, but they ain’t being difficult for the sake of being difficult. What a lot of people, on both sides, don’t understand is what a lot of the numbers mean.
I’m kinda skeptical on things like WAR and UZR because of the built-in confirmation bias: “These numbers are good indicators because they show that the players I want to look good look good” and that sort of thing. Basically, there’s no edge for a GM’s office to say “well gee, Pujols is good, we should get a player like that.” The advantage will come when you find a number that shows who is undervalued and who can be picked up for cheap (see: Moneyball, that Shane Battier article, etc.)
I was actually thinking of writing a post on this, but I think this makes my point enough. A lot of stats are more of fun playthings than useful for a “baseball guy”. And I of course don’t mean this as a knock on stats-folks, people like Slyde are doing the Lord’s Work on this site. But there is something more than just numbers (as people like Slyde would be the first to tell you…after Steve Lyrons shuts up, of course). Stats haven’t come close to quantifying the whole game, and a lot of stats are toys more than effective analytical tools. This doesn’t mean that they should be thrown out, obviously, but its tough to ignore things like leadership qualities and bilinguality are worth something as well.
Hopefully that made some sense. A lot of things are unquantifiable but still have a huge affect on the game, and just because some folks sound like blithering idiots trying to say that does not make it untrue.
by Cy Schourek on Jun 26, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I couldn't agree more.
In 35+ years of business leadership positions i have learned that there are truly intangible aspects that some human beings just have. these intangibles have to do with all kinds of personal talents (this is too vague but – some people have a 6th sense about what pitch is coming e.g.). What stats tell us about is the productivity of said people – what they did, what they are somewhat likely to do and how they might match up with the challenges of their job. Knowing that some one is an above average player at AAA for instance doesn’t translate into that player becoming successful at the MLB level. But the information about what that player has does, what he’s good at and where he needs work will help management make decisions that will help him to achieve rather than fail. Skeeter Barnes had all the heart in the world, good guy in the clubhouse, got his ass dirty, worked his butt off….never had much of a MB career. Point is Talent rules, stats are a ruler and good managers should know the difference
Hopefully that makes a little sense…
One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.
George Carlin
by Madville on Jun 26, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are we calling anti-stats dudes stupid? Or are we calling Steve Lyons stupid
…in reaction to that delightful, irrational commentary above?
Who in the world thinks that there’s nothing more to baseball than stats? Who has ever tried to make that point? Why would we call anyone stupid for believing that a part of baseball lies in strength of spirit, or heart, or grit, or whatever?
But this:
Stupid. Doesn’t tell me if the guy is a player. Doesn’t tell me if the guy can play. Is he a gamer? Does he get dirty? Does he go out there and play hard? Is he a good teammate? None of that stuff tells me any of that. That’s the guy I want.
That is stupid.
Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.
by andromache on Jun 26, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just that there's a difference between "reactionary" and "stupid"
When people get angry, they’re liable to say stuff that comes off as stupid. But at the same time, Lyons is right, stats don’t tell you if the guy gets dirty, plays hard, is a good teammate. I think the problem is “That’s the guy I want”. No, that isn’t the guy you want. You want the guy with the 180 OPS+.
But in terms of acquiring players, you’re gonna pay a mint for the guy with the 180 OPS+. So the trick is to find a way to quantify good-player-itude in a way where the good players are undervalued.
Another way to think of it, I suppose, is that if you were an ex-player, you probably remembered fondest the “gamers” on your team, they were the guys who “helped you win” (kind of inimical to every football player/announcer ever saying “the game is won in the trenches,” because its nice to think of the dirty-work dudes as the helpful ones. Kind of inimical, at least). So they think you need those kind of guys around, and this new-school is threatening the livelihood of those guys. That is a threat, and that would make you reactionary.
ANOTHER way to think of it is this: the majority of us, at this more stats-y website, liked Ryan Freel during his first few years in Cincy, and thought that he was a valuable player, right? Well, according to BBRef, he wasn’t all that great. And sure, you could chalk that up to overuse, but the point is: statistically, one would rather have, say, Eric Byrnes during the same time frame? And, well, I’m not sure you could convince me, at least, that I would.
by Cy Schourek on Jun 26, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually the total value stats
had Ryan Freel has being very valuable in his first 4 years with the Reds. 2003 1.1(WAR)/ 2004 2.5(WAR)/ 2005 2.2(WAR)/ 2006 3.9(WAR).
2006 Fangraphs calculation had Ryan Freel has being a more valuable player than Adam Dunn- so statheads and west side Billy Cunningham lovers were united in their worldview for at least one year(he was also slightly more valuable than Eric Byrnes for the same period).
So that is the one oddity has statiscal models are incorporating defense into their calculations- they tend to favor the same type of players that traditional scouts love ie speed.
And the traditional stathead favorite player- beer gut – hundred walks- 30+ plus Homers- the same range as your pastor on your church softball league are having their values being reduced by quantifying their defensive contributions.
But the one overriding point is baseball is the sport that can be quantified to an extreme degree.
And I am always wary of players that are described as great club house guys- because that tag tends to fall to a great degree on marginally white starters.
by davidmac84 on Jun 26, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great clubhouse guys are usually just that...good guys to have in the clubhouse, as team memebers go they keep things balanced and positive.
guys like Kevin Mitchel, Tony Perez and David Weathers… I need some specific data on this assumption that good clubhouse guys are marginal white players please.
One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.
George Carlin
by Madville on Jun 26, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the tag
clubhouse guys/ great leaders- in my experience(ie subjective and maybe completely faulty) as been tagged to a great degree on white players.
I think a study exists somewhere on the internet where listners could guess the race of players just by listening to broadcasts ie white players were more often chacterized as hardworking overachievers intelligent leaders.
Anyway not to discount leaderships factors- I am just always suspicious the players labeled as leaders may have not earned that tag.
by davidmac84 on Jun 26, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kevin Mitchell is a good clubhouse guy?
Doc Gooden’s girlfriend and housecats everywhere disagree
by Cy Schourek on Jun 26, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Greg Vaughn was a great clubhouse guy
"Power guys like Giambi and Dunn have always had high OPS because no one wants to pitch to them. But it takes two hits to score them from first." -- Harold Reynolds
by jch24 on Jun 26, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whoa, slow your roll man
there are plenty of West Siders that CAN’T stand Willy and his bullshit. Yes, that includes Republicans.
Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans
by Farneyismycopilot on Jun 26, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, I'm a west sider and I take off-
Oh wait, that does describe most people here. :)
"Power guys like Giambi and Dunn have always had high OPS because no one wants to pitch to them. But it takes two hits to score them from first." -- Harold Reynolds
by jch24 on Jun 26, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I conceed that my personal bias is to equate "reactionary" with "stupid". (I admit, sometimes erroneously)
To me, Steve Lyons opinion on statistics in baseball is pretty much on the same level as global warming denial.
And, although davidmac has pretty much made this argument: While Ryan Freel didn’t bring a power stick to the table, his 04-06 OBP was really, very solid. (OPS always overemphasizes SLG). Combining that with his defense, and hilarious personal antics, I did really like him. I’m not sure that, during those three years, Eric Byrnes would have been much of a statistical upgrade.
Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.
by andromache on Jun 26, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I con ceed a spelling errer
/gray’d
"I lay my head on the railroad tracks, and wait for the double E"- Warren Zevon
by Colin Auscapee on Jun 26, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, I thought you were in RRetirement.
Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.
by andromache on Jun 26, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my triumphant return corresponded with Joeh's
"I lay my head on the railroad tracks, and wait for the double E"- Warren Zevon
by Colin Auscapee on Jun 26, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I concede nothing.
One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.
George Carlin
by Madville on Jun 27, 2009 2:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this from Tim Marchman (who?) at SI
he says the Virus is the worst FA signing of the year. common Walt! even the jerks at SI get it!
I am an internationally recognized Ghostbusters Expert. - Mads
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jun 26, 2009 12:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Marchman wrote for the NY Sun
until the paper folded. He was my favorite NY area baseball writer, young and engaged. He used to frequent BBTF occasionally. Apparently he’s been writing for Slate and SI now. Between him and Posnanski it seems someone at SI is paying attention.
by Red Menace on Jun 26, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
huh
well i’ll be
I am an internationally recognized Ghostbusters Expert. - Mads
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jun 26, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Marchman also writes for the Wall Street Journal now
Which has put together a nice little sports section.
by ken on Jun 28, 2009 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joey Votto
is 15 years older than his brothers. Didn’t realize his brothers were so much younger
The McPaper has this article today:
Major league anxiety: Players more open to seek help
Votto, the Cincinnati Reds first baseman and top hitter, showed symptoms of distress when he had to leave three games in May, once being helped off the field by manager Dusty Baker.The team put him on the DL on May 30 with what it called “stress-related issues.” Upon returning to the lineup Tuesday, Votto revealed he had been having panic attacks while grieving the loss of his father, who died in August.
Votto says he was severely depressed during the offseason but found comfort in returning to baseball during spring training. When he missed several games in May because of an inner-ear infection, that comfort was no longer available.
“Baseball was my refuge,” Votto told news reporters. “Then I went home and was miserable.”
Eventually, Votto sought counseling.
Concerned about the stigma of succumbing to stress, he kept his condition private, even from his teammates, until doctors convinced him opening up would be therapeutic.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on Jun 26, 2009 12:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
that's a remarkable chain of events
After hearing it, I guess it shouldn’t have been, but with everyone speculating like crazy, I don’t think anyone came close. My guess was that the inner ear thing was stressing him.
Oh wait, someone said he had a problem with being gay and he does sound intelligent and well-spoken.
/sarcasm
by ol Pete on Jun 26, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd take Spillbourghs
or preferably Murton, for cheap. Not my first pick, but yeah, both would be worth a shot. But again, preferably Murton so that the Reds can get a ginger again.
by Cy Schourek on Jun 26, 2009 12:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The Hiroshima Carp
is the team Alfonso Soriano used to play for.
Andyfan is getting $40 million yen, which about minimum wage for the US major leagues. Aaron Guiel got more than twice as much when he went to Japan. Though the season is almost half-over now; I guess that might have something to do with it.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on Jun 26, 2009 12:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Reds trade Norris Hopper
to White Sox for Corky Miller. Corky goes to AAA. We needed a C to replace Castillo at AAA. Maybe this makes a spot for Heisey at AAA?
Find me on MySpace- http://www.myspace.com/mixfmkyle
by MixFMKyle on Jun 26, 2009 1:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Corky Miller?
He was around so long ago. Im surprised he is still in the league.
by JPGs on Jun 26, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The International League?
Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans
by Farneyismycopilot on Jun 26, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
where's Dane Sardinha?
"We're going to Adonis, son"
jch24
by obc2 on Jun 26, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Off the hook
"Power guys like Giambi and Dunn have always had high OPS because no one wants to pitch to them. But it takes two hits to score them from first." -- Harold Reynolds
by jch24 on Jun 26, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dane Sardinha
is a Toledo Mudhen. He was DFA’d last week, basically because he was hitting .097. (His defense is considered excellent.) He cleared waivers and accepted an assignment to Toledo. He was actually happy to get it. His younger brother Bronson has been unable to get a job anywhere, even in the independent leagues.
That’s the Bronson Sardinha who was the Yankees’ first round draft pick in 2001, and who scored a 1 million signing bonus.
He’s only 26, and can’t get a job.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on Jun 26, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BK?
I am an internationally recognized Ghostbusters Expert. - Mads
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jun 26, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not quite, he's got a few years on me
"We, as for me all seasons you are affected peculiarly in the edge of my seat and are happy concerning the fact that the Adam Dunn fan has been mixed up exactly." - Reynard-san
by BK on Jun 26, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my bud just got caught-and-released by the gov't
they made him jump through a few hoops for the summer, and are now saying “no thanks”. He blames this on putting me down for a reference, but the point is: lets all just move to Iran and become a 5th column for the highest bidder.
by Cy Schourek on Jun 26, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs


























