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Around SBN: Bob Sapp Denies Throwing Fights

Off Day Happy Thought: The Reds Used to be Really Good at Shortstop

Dave Concepcion and Barry Larkin aren't coming through that door.

Alex Gonazlez is batting .225/.269/.314 this year as the Reds shortstop.

In 2008, Jeff Keppinger batted .266/.310/.346 while playing some statuesque defense at shortstop.

Prior to that we saw the likes of Felipe Lopez, Juan Castro, Royce Clayton, and Pedro Lopez digging in at the shortstop position.  It's hard to believe that shortstop used to be the most stable position in the organization's history.

From 1952 until 2004, the Reds had 76% of their starts at shortstop come from 4 players: Roy McMillan, Leo Cardenas, Dave Concepcion, and Barry Larkin.  That is some ridiculous stability at one position.  As a comparison, in the 721 games since Barry Larkin retired in 2004, there have been 13 different starters and the top 4 starters combined to barely reach 76% of those games.  Truly amazing.

As an off-day distraction from this past week's suckitude, I thought it'd be fun to reminisce a bit about those shortstops of yesteryear.  Being a stathead nerd, of course I'm going to do it with numbers and graphs, like this one:

Shorstop_war_medium

This graph shows each player's Wins Above Replacement (WAR) sorted from their best season to their worst (data courtesy of BaseballProjection.com).  McMillan and Cardenas weren't at the same level as Larkin and Concepcion, but they were still very good shortstops for their day. And Concepcion, though not much with the bat, still had some very good years under his belt at shortstop.  Of course, none of them compare to Larkin at his best, but then very few shortstops in the history of the game do.

If we break down their seasons into components, we really see what a well-rounded player Larkin was, and how specialized the others were:

Shorstop_rar_medium

The three shortstops before Larkin played in a completely different era where good glove, no-hit shortstops were the norm.  What amazes me most about this graph is how much better Roy McMillan was defensively than the others, though a caveat should be placed on this.  McMillan only played with the Reds until 1960 when he was 30 years old before going on to play for the Milwaukee Braves.  He was still very good defensively for the Braves, but as is typical, his skills declined over time.  Because Concepcion and Larkin both played with the Reds into their late 30s, their numbers suffered some because of their natural decline.  At their peaks they were comparable to McMillan, but Roy was still slightly superior defensively.

It's doubtful that the Reds will have such stability at shortstop again in the near future.  Chris Valaika is probably next in line for the job, but there is serious question about whether or not he has the glove to man the position in the Majors.  Zack Cozart appears to have the glove, but there are uncertainties about his bat.  I suppose it's possible that either of those guys could end up locking down the position for a decade, but it's unlikely.  Let's face it, we were pretty spoiled for a long time there.

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Good work as usual Slyde

I’m no baseball historian, but it seems like most teams suffer from the same problem. Apart from Jeter and the Yankees, not many teams have had a true SS who produced offensively for an extended period.

We were truly lucky to have Larkin. He will always represent the Reds to me, as I grew up in the late 80s and early 90s following the team. I didn’t know anything about the game, but I still remember the cash register “ka-ching”-ing every time he got a hit and money was donated to a charity.

Isn't there a slanket somewhere you should be filling with your farts?

by nycredsfan on Jun 15, 2009 1:42 PM EDT reply actions  

yeah, i said "not many"

because I was too lazy to find out exactly how many did

Isn't there a slanket somewhere you should be filling with your farts?

by nycredsfan on Jun 15, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

thanks Slyde

for reminding me that the last time this team was any good i was too young to appreciate it.

speaking of making me sick, BEST HEADLINE EVAR

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jun 15, 2009 1:58 PM EDT reply actions  

Ozzie loved him some Concepcion

its why he wore #13. Figure I’d do my piece to make your awesome link on topic.

by Cy Schourek on Jun 15, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

the sickness and puking

make it on topic. i dont need it, but thanks for the help.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jun 15, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

i don't know why this team is so stubborn

Phillips would be way above average offensively as a SS… we could then pick up a good hitting infielder to play second… problem solved !

Nobody listens to Andrew

by nlt-andrew68 on Jun 15, 2009 1:58 PM EDT reply actions  

What the ll is this?

There’s soccer on my TV!

"It seems as if every mistake I've ever made in life I've had an erection in one hand and a Bud Light in the other."

by jch24 on Jun 15, 2009 2:28 PM EDT reply actions  

U-S-A! U-S-A!

"We, as for me all seasons you are affected peculiarly in the edge of my seat and are happy concerning the fact that the Adam Dunn fan has been mixed up exactly." - Reynard-san

by BK on Jun 15, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Meh, I guess so :)

Is Italy good? Who should win?

"It seems as if every mistake I've ever made in life I've had an erection in one hand and a Bud Light in the other."

by jch24 on Jun 15, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Italy's good

They should win, but I think the US has a good shot to draw. For the first time in a while, I really like the lineup/tactics Bradley has put out there, and for some reason Italian striker Luca Toni is on the bench. Even though Italy won the last World Cup, the US forced a 1-1 draw in their game against them.

"We, as for me all seasons you are affected peculiarly in the edge of my seat and are happy concerning the fact that the Adam Dunn fan has been mixed up exactly." - Reynard-san

by BK on Jun 15, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

The USA was the only team Italy did not beat in the '06 World Cup

And the US got a draw with only 9 men, including one who looked like this:

by Brendanukkah on Jun 15, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also, up next for the Americans are Brazil and Egypt

Egypt won the African Cup and just gave Brazil all they could handle. If we win just one of these games, it’s huge.

by Brendanukkah on Jun 15, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLL

"It seems as if every mistake I've ever made in life I've had an erection in one hand and a Bud Light in the other."

by jch24 on Jun 15, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

dammit

some dude with a chick’s name just schooled our boys.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jun 15, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't go that far

I just would’ve told Italy that if they wanted Rossi, they have to take the rest of Jersey as well

by Cy Schourek on Jun 15, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

There are actually only 2 on the current US roster

"We, as for me all seasons you are affected peculiarly in the edge of my seat and are happy concerning the fact that the Adam Dunn fan has been mixed up exactly." - Reynard-san

by BK on Jun 15, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah i actually knew that

i dont follow socker much, but i remember that being a thing a few years back. maybe it’s racist, but i dont mind it as much if a guy with a name like that decides to play for Italy instead.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jun 15, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey look, Benedict Rossi got another one

"We, as for me all seasons you are affected peculiarly in the edge of my seat and are happy concerning the fact that the Adam Dunn fan has been mixed up exactly." - Reynard-san

by BK on Jun 15, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey, I know that guy!

Well, if that’s Brian McBride I know him. Well, I know what he looks like anyway.

/my knowledge of soccer

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jun 15, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yup, that's Brian McBride

He used to have a reputation for taking huge amounts of physical abuse, as well as being one of the few American position players to ever do well in England. These days though, he does a LOT of diving. Sad, really.

(And he got his PK against DC United blocked. Busta!)

by Brendanukkah on Jun 15, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sometimes when my wife is out of town..

..I sit around and think about how I used to have sex with nineteen year-old college girls. It makes me “happy.”

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jun 15, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

hmm

I’ve got the answer around here somewhere

"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty

by Slyde on Jun 15, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Did you..

..see this coming?

“If you or someone you love suffers from the loss of range of motion.” Umm… Alex?

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jun 15, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

What are the defensive #s feeding WAR?

And how confident should we be in them to conclude that McMillan was hands down better than Larkin or Concepcion?

12 GG’s for that group as a whole, btw.

by ken on Jun 15, 2009 3:32 PM EDT reply actions  

Total Zone is the defensive numbers

I was talking with Reds Historian Greg Rhodes yesterday, which is why I thought about this post. We were specifically talking about McMillan and though he didn’t say McMillan was better than Davey or Barry, he basically said that his defense was other-worldly. Obviously defensive reputation is suspect at best, and defensive metrics are hardly definitive, but I feel pretty confident from what I’ve heard that McMillan was in the same class, if not better than Concepcion and Larkin with the glove.

"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty

by Slyde on Jun 15, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, I thought about that yesterday

but I was at his book signing for his Crosley Field book (with Erardi), and there were several people who wanted to talk to him. When you coming to town again? I’ll see if we can stumble across his path for you, though I don’t have quite that kind of pull with him.

"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty

by Slyde on Jun 15, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nope

I’ll be in Luhville on the 15-16 though. I am thinking about possibly making a trip to the ’Bus on the 4th of July (Crew plays DC United!).

by Brendanukkah on Jun 15, 2009 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

July 18th?

Brian B will be sitting in the scout seats that night! Where 2 or 3 are gathered together, there am I.

I’ll see if I can get Greg to meet up with us. He’s a really nice guy. I think he just has a full plate. At the book signing, he made deals with two different people to follow up on different things, one research, one charity work. He seems like the kind of person that has a hard time saying no.

"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty

by Slyde on Jun 15, 2009 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not that you guys care, but if you'd like I'll see if I can make it

Might even be able to score some seats for us, who knows. :)

"It seems as if every mistake I've ever made in life I've had an erection in one hand and a Bud Light in the other."

by jch24 on Jun 15, 2009 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Definitely.

I’m not saying that I’m going to the game with either Brendan or Brian B necessarily. Just saying that I’d like to meet up if I do go to the game. Plus, it’s against the Brewers, so yeah, fuck them!

"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty

by Slyde on Jun 15, 2009 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bardzilla x4!

"We're going to Adonis, son"

jch24

by obc2 on Jun 16, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

AS a kid I remember vividly Mac and Johnny Temple pulling off some indrecible DPs.

This was back in the day when if you didn’t spike the guy covering 2nd you were considered to undeniably gay. Which in those days really sucked. It was also a time when defense was 90% of the job of the SS, any points the SS could hit over ,200 were gravy. Correct me, but I remember Davy as being considered a pretty damn good offensive player for his era….Barry blew the lid off the position offensively (obviously). But Roy’s job was to be slicker than greased shit with glove and he was. Great arm too.

Sweat plus sacrifice equals another useless out. Mads

by Madville on Jun 15, 2009 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Sweat plus sacrifice equals another useless out. Mads

by Madville on Jun 16, 2009 4:23 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

When Roy played a number of players wore glasses

1. 1970 was when the first commercially available soft contact lens was introduced in the United States by Bausch & Lomb.
2. Hard contact lenses were very expensive and pretty irritable
3. Player’s couldn’t deal with dust etc. getting into their eyes in the 1950’s so everyone wore slightly oversized glasses with a head strap to hold them in place.
4. Some guys would only wear glasses when at bat, the rest of the time they got by using braille baseballs.

I think I would know Nora's fart anywhere. I think I could pick hers out in a roomful of farting women.

About his wife, Nora; James Joyce

by Madville on Jun 17, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

"The Best Was Not Quite Good Enoguh"

Quite a James Bond-ian subtitle for a man that looks like my Grandpa Harry.

by Cy Schourek on Jun 16, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

By FRAA, FWIW,

It goes Concepcion (192), Larkin (164), then McMillan (146). McMillan had about 20% less innings then Concepcion, which closes the gap quite a bit. But considering my ignorance of Total Zone and the intransparency of FRAA, it’s hard for me to compare the numbers.

by ken on Jun 16, 2009 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

When did Larkin win his Gold Gloves?

Wasn’t there a year that he and Pokey both won ’em?

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jun 15, 2009 3:39 PM EDT reply actions  

Nope.

Larkin won three (consecutively) before Pokey’s MLB debut in ’97.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Jun 15, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

brandon phillips should be there

it really makes no sense to me why he isn’t at this point. hairston would be a decent second baseman – not great, but decent. and we could probably put valaika there, couldn’t we? isn’t it the solution right in front of our faces? what cons are there to moving phillips?

by Daedalus on Jun 15, 2009 4:42 PM EDT reply actions  

I agree Sister D. Jerry Jr. would be acceptable at 2b.

BP will never be moved because it is not in Dusty’s ‘book’.

Sweat plus sacrifice equals another useless out. Mads

by Madville on Jun 15, 2009 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

happy thoughts

Sheldon has a list of draftees who have signed since the draft. im impressed they got Hamilton to sign so quickly.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Jun 15, 2009 4:47 PM EDT reply actions  

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