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Who should get the 5th spot?

I argue Bailey.  He has more upside than Owings, and I woud like to keep his positive karma going.  Owings is at best a 3 starter, Bailey could steal dominate the league.  I like Owings but I just don't see him dominating in the way Bailey can.  I don't have any stats to back this up, I'm going with my guy.  Please state your arguments below.  As always boobs is non-of the above (Masset?).

Poll
Who has earned the 5th spot?
Homer Bailey
70 votes
Micah Owings
104 votes
Boobs
90 votes

264 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs  |  Comment 49 comments

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Micah

"I've actually never had a drink before, tonight I might try it out. We'll see."
—Dodgers pitcher Clayton Kershaw, on turning 21

by obc2 on Apr 2, 2009 12:44 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Bailey

Homer had a better spring. Homer has more upside. Homer is less suited to pitch out of the bullpen. Makes perfect since to me to put him in the rotation and Owings in the bullpen.

by dougdirt on Apr 2, 2009 12:47 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Not sure how you argue that Homer had a better Spring

As far as I can tell, the only thing that Bailey did better was walk fewer hitters, and half of Owings walks came in one start.

"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty

by Slyde on Apr 2, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Their numbers are similar

Both guys have struck out 24.7% of the batters they have saw in major league camp this year. Tie.

Bailey is walking just 4.9% while Owings is at 10.3%. Advantage Bailey.

Bailey has an ERA of 2.61 and Owings has an ERA of 1.52. Advantage Owings.

Bailey has a WHIP of 1.06 and Owings 1.27. Advantage Bailey.

Bailey has a 23-18 ground out to fly out rate. Owings 16-26. Given GABP, Advantage Bailey.

The only real advantage that Owings has had is his ERA being better. Bailey has looked as good or better just about everywhere else.

by dougdirt on Apr 2, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

sure, if you only look at the things that Bailey was better in

Bailey has given up 2 HR to Owings 0. Advantage Owings

WHIP is basically double counting BB rate. Owings has a batting average against of .233 compared to Bailey’s .243. Advantage Owings

Bailey has a .288 OBP against to Owings .320. Advantage Bailey

Bailey has a .365 SLG against to Owings .291. Advantage Owings

I like Bailey’s ground ball outs, but we know very little in the comparison of a small sample of flyball outs. If Owings has been getting a lot of infield pop ups, I’ll take those over ground outs because pop ups have a higher rate of turning into outs.

Like I said in the other thread, I’m fine with either one getting the 5th spot, but I don’t believe Bailey has outpitched Owings.

"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty

by Slyde on Apr 2, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

HR factors

Given that Owings is a flyball guy, while Bailey is much better at getting grounders, I am not all too worried about that. Owings will give up more HR’s than Bailey simply because he gives up a lot more fly balls.

Average against of course is also factoring in defenses, as is OBP and SLG.

The two players histories show that Bailey gets a lot more grounders than does Owings.

Basically I like Bailey’s BB, K and GB numbers better than those of Owings. Those suggest to me that Bailey has been the better pitcher this spring.

by dougdirt on Apr 2, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Slyde,

what if you look at potential, who do you think would be more likely to put up an ERA+ over 100 this year as a starting pitcher?

"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions!"- Dr. Stephen T. Colbert DFA.

by justin007000 on Apr 2, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd go with Owings in 2009

Bailey has to prove himself in more than 6 games for me to believe otherwise.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m as excited as anyone by Bailey’s emergence this Spring, but I’d still give the 5th spot to Owings right now.

"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty

by Slyde on Apr 2, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i respect that

"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions!"- Dr. Stephen T. Colbert DFA.

by justin007000 on Apr 2, 2009 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Homer

He’s done everything he’s been asked of him, and I’m more confident that this time around his head is finally in the right place to get major league hitters out, and his raw talent over Owings makes me feel better giving him the nod. Plus, if Homer gets sent to AAA, his fragile confidence could lead him to go back to being a head case, and if you’re Walt with a blue-chip prospect like that, I don’t think you can take that chance.

"I can eat mayonnaise with a spoon." - Jeff Brantley

by BK on Apr 2, 2009 1:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

FWIW

I don’t think Walt and Dusty will just go up to Homer and say, “See ya kid, better luck next time.” I’m pretty sure he understands the situation.

And if he can’t handle being sent down when the rotation is clearly full, how’s he going to handle getting rocked in consecutive outings in the big league? If he’s fragile, he’s fragile wherever he ends up.

"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty

by Slyde on Apr 2, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You say "still" like Clark Kellogg

I don't need a hot breakfast to have a good time.

by 3 Fast 3 Furious on Apr 2, 2009 1:20 PM EDT reply actions   2 recs

Best Hope

is for Arroyo to go out there, give up another 10 runs and they put him on the DL and bring both North. Give those two 2 or 3 meaningful starts again real teams and see who shakes out. I like Owings just based on batting practice though..

Education is what you get from reading the directions. Experience is what you get from not reading them.

by snohio on Apr 2, 2009 1:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I've not been a fan of Bailey but he's earned it.

But it doesn’t matter much now, we won’t need a 5th guy for a while and knowing Dustballs he’ll probably pencil in Masset.

Edinson
Cueto
Bailey
Harang
Owings

I wouldn’t be surprised to see Bronson traded before the the deadline.

Its probably going to happen - bend over

by Madville on Apr 2, 2009 2:12 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Owings

He’s got a better stick!

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Apr 2, 2009 5:27 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Homer was 2-2 with a knock off Oswalt last time out!

I know sample size, sample size. But I think that does show he is not a slouch. Plus, pitcher’s hitting doesn’t really factor too large in rotation battles. We need to hook the Wagon to the Hoss and ride off with this thing! Yay positivity!

"I usually shoot it pretty straight."- a boating enthusiast

by Colin Auscapee on Apr 2, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Owings could be a legit pinch-hitter

They were talking about playing him at 1B on days when he didn’t pitch.

Pitchers’ hitting doesn’t factor in rotation battles because most pitchers don’t hit like Owings.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Apr 2, 2009 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am not disparaging his bat

I just think that an undue import is placed on it around these parts. If he is such a great god-damned hitter move him to the outfield (I am not really an advocate of this idea in this instance); the rotation is where I want the best pitchers.

Plus (and I am not saying you are guilty of this BF), why is so much stock put in Owings hundred plus ML at-bats, but Dickerson’s are denigrated on sample size grounds?

"I usually shoot it pretty straight."- a boating enthusiast

by Colin Auscapee on Apr 2, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If one pitcher were obviously better than the other

Then hitting wouldn’t matter. (Ditto if this were an AL team.)

But Owings and Bailey are pretty close, so why not use the stick as a tie-breaker?

Plus (and I am not saying you are guilty of this BF), why is so much stock put in Owings hundred plus ML at-bats, but Dickerson’s are denigrated on sample size grounds?

The minor league numbers are pretty good, too:


Owings .359 .373 .500 873
Dickerson .260 .363 .415 778

Still a small sample size, but it makes you wonder about his potential.

I think if all we had on Dickerson were his ML numbers, people would be a lot more enthused. Because there would be no evidence that he was hitting above himself, so to speak.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Apr 2, 2009 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess I just (somewhat blindly) expect better things

from Bailey than Owings. All things don’t appear to be equal, in my eyes.

Now I will say something totally outrageous. I did not watch Dickerson play a minor-league game. I pretty much saw all his major league games. The mL/ML splits are drastic; sample-size in the latter is obviously an issue. But, to me, Dickerson seems like the sort of player who elevates his game to his surroundings, or if you don’t like that ethereal explanation, he seems like a person who has suddenly figured it out. I really don’t expect a tremendous drop-off from last year’s audition, especially with his exposure to lefties very limited.

Like investment firms warn, past production is not a guarantee of future results. This statement cuts both ways. Everybody is looking for the next Ryan Ludwick. What if he is on our team right now, with a few more tools to boot?

"I usually shoot it pretty straight."- a boating enthusiast

by Colin Auscapee on Apr 2, 2009 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My guess is that it's beginner's luck

I’ve seen it happen a lot with rookies. They hit really well…until they don’t.

I think this “beginner’s luck” is probably due to scouting as much as small sample size and the excitement of being in the show. They are unknown, and benefit from that. Eventually, though, the scouting catches up with them, and the holes are found.

I am expecting a tremendous dropoff. Even Ryan Ludwick didn’t hit .304 / .413 / .608 / 1021. I would expect a dropoff for just about anyone, starting from that baseline.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Apr 2, 2009 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.

I think having someone like Owings on the bench who can pinch hit and perhaps play LF gives an NL manager a bit more flexibility. It’s like having an extra roster spot.

It might even allow the Reds to carry three catchers!

Hmm.

Maybe Bailey is the better choice after all.

And Adam Dunn's spirit, ranging for revenge / With Ate by his side come hot from hell, / Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice / Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war...

by Paul Householder on Apr 2, 2009 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

more credence is given to Owings ML ABs

because he has done it over a couple of years. Dickerson’s ML ABs came in one month. Owings doesnt have that many more total ABs, but because it has happened over a long period of time you cant really attribute it to hot streaks or what-not.

im not a proponent of moving Owings to the outfield or putting him in the pen to take advantage of his PH abilities or whatever, im just explaining why Owings performance over 100+ ABs is more indicative of his true performance level than Dickerson’s. and i love Dickerson too.

My millions are unconventional!

by Charlie Scrabbles on Apr 2, 2009 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

voted owings

mostly because I’m dont think either should go to the pen (sure it would open up owings to pinch hit more, but why interrupt his success this spring?). Id rather see bailey in AAA than long relief, I think shelving him to long relief duties would be a terrible idea. plus stonewalling the kid after a good spring might actually make him work even harder. He’s 22, this is the major leagues, making it there isnt easy. But its good to see the Reds agreed with the fans who thought giving up on him was pure lunacy.

that said, personally Id rather see both in the rotation

by sharks on Apr 2, 2009 5:32 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

who do you kick out?

"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions!"- Dr. Stephen T. Colbert DFA.

by justin007000 on Apr 2, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

arroyo

DL or trade. I guess I didn’t exactly mean right away. I was sort of agreeing with snohio.

by sharks on Apr 3, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

rec'ing

because no one ever agrees with me. .:)

Education is what you get from reading the directions. Experience is what you get from not reading them.

by snohio on Apr 5, 2009 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

HOMER!

I HAVE A WINE BOTTLE WITH HIS PICTURE ON IT!

by Daedalus on Apr 2, 2009 6:19 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The Fay says

all 30 guys on the roster will be traveling north with the team. They have until Sunday to make the final cuts, and I guess are waiting until the last minute. Probably because Jocketty’s on the phone trying to see if there’s anyone out there better than Laynce Nix or Adam Rosales.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Apr 2, 2009 8:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Minor League transactions

from Baseball America

One-time Red Jason Romano has been released by the Astros. Romano was a friend of Bubba Crosby’s when they were both with the Dodgers:

(That’s Paul Lo Duca in back.)

He teased Bubba about being traded to the Yankees minutes before the trade deadline…only to have it come true.

Russ Haltiwanger was released by the Cards. I think the Reds should sign him. If we can’t have Coutlangus, dammit, I want Haltiwanger. (He was the guy traded to the Royals for Jeff Keppinger.)

And the Blue Jays released Daryl Harang. That’s Aaron’s younger, smaller, left-handed brother.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Apr 2, 2009 8:59 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Can the Reds sign Aaron's brother

just so he can walk into the clubhouse and say “This is my brother, Daryl.”

Also, I would take a lefty Harang in a heartbeat.

...because there's already someone posing as Jacob Brumfield

by Cy Schourek on Apr 3, 2009 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he is pretty okay in OOTP9

i traded for him, and he was a solid 3rd starter for a few seasons.

"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions!"- Dr. Stephen T. Colbert DFA.

by justin007000 on Apr 3, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Where's Dan O'Brien?

I would bet Jason Romano is giving him a call right now.

And Adam Dunn's spirit, ranging for revenge / With Ate by his side come hot from hell, / Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice / Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war...

by Paul Householder on Apr 3, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Milwaukee?

"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions!"- Dr. Stephen T. Colbert DFA.

by justin007000 on Apr 3, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Red Hot Mama is probably giving Jason Romano a call right now

...because there's already someone posing as Jacob Brumfield

by Cy Schourek on Apr 3, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Heart: Homer; Head: Owings

My usual M.O. is to trust the stats, but a) Spring stats are worse than useless, because all they do activate confirmation bias in all of us; and b) we have to take personalities into account here. McCoy says that Homer has matured, but do we really want to take the risk that by sending him down to AAA we’ll reawaken the sullen brat from the past 2 seasons? Homer’s stuff is also undeniably better than Owings, whose ceiling is that of a 4th starter anyway.

On the other hand, seems like it’d be much better to let him dominate for a month or two in Louisville, call him up when the first injury happens, and keep him there. Hopefully Masset performs well enough to build up value as a trade chip and Owings can transition to the bullpen while contributing extra value by not needing to be lifted for a pinch hitter.

So yeah, it’s a draw, and a good problem to have. Teams with pitching depth have a much better chance of winning.

by teb7 on Apr 2, 2009 9:25 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Bailey

Sure would love to see the kid play well this season, but when it comes down to it he struggles under presure. This is the ML, a man’s game, some kids can’t make it in the bigs!

by Redhots on Apr 3, 2009 7:24 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Welcome to the site

Just wanted to let you know that I deleted your FanPost since it said basically the same thing you said right here. We like to try to keep conversations confined to one thread as much as possible so that we don’t have people arguing in a confusing manner from different spots on the site.

Please keep participating! Let’s just try to leave FanPosts for a new idea that isn’t already being discussed on the site.

"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty

by Slyde on Apr 3, 2009 8:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah don't hord in on my fanposts

and hi hello and welcome

"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions!"- Dr. Stephen T. Colbert DFA.

by justin007000 on Apr 3, 2009 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

welcome Redhots

and pay no attention to justin. he owns nothing around here.

My millions are unconventional!

by Charlie Scrabbles on Apr 3, 2009 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I own it all :)

"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions!"- Dr. Stephen T. Colbert DFA.

by justin007000 on Apr 3, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the defense rests!

Reds fan for 40 years!

by gejoe on Apr 3, 2009 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yesterday, I would have said that

Today, I only thought it and didn’t commit it to writing. Progress?

by Brendanukkah on Apr 3, 2009 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

nope

gejoe gets a rec!

"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty

by Slyde on Apr 3, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

wow

I’m giddy with pride!

thanks!!

Reds fan for 40 years!

by gejoe on Apr 4, 2009 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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