We have pretty good ways to measure what their absence means in terms of production and whether that will matter towards winning, and pretty bad ways to measure what their absence means in terms of “clubhouse chemistry” and if that will matter.

I do believe that positive models of leadership are important; I have every reason to believe a player like Votto (if he emerges as a leader) will provide a different model of work ethic than Dunn or Griffey.

But I also believe that the “poor chemistry” argument is too often brought up in sports retroactively to explain away lack of talent, poor decisions, and plain bad luck. As Slyde often says, it wasn’t Dunn’s relaxed attitude that made the Reds pitching suck for 8 years.

I don’t think the Griffey and Dunn trades were bad trades, but I am far less enthused for the Reds season because Dunn’s significant contributions to the offense in terms of OBP and slugging have not been replaced.

I don’t mind rebuilding the team around “speed and defense” in an attempt to make up for his loss on the cheap, but IMO the “speed and defense” (havoc) meme is being trotted out merely to cover for a lack of power and onbase abilities. This will be an offense that makes up for rarely getting runners on base by making sure many of them are thrown out when they do. It’s a defense built on iffy reputations and dudes who look good in their uniforms.

Leadership is a commodity whose value is unknowable and almost certainly fluid. Perhaps leadership mattered more to the success of the ’04 Red Sox than it did to the ’86 Mets. Or perhaps the ’86 Mets needed a different model of leadership, one that fostered mayhem and conflict in order to bring out the best of them on the field. Some might call this a lack of leadership. Perhaps, then, they succeeded despite poor leadership. Perhaps the ’04 Red Sox succeeded despite being too close to and supportive of one another. Or maybe it had nothing to do with leadership at all. Perhaps it had everything to do with the way a few balls bounced or a few pitches were thrown.

I’m not sure that this Spring Training confirms anything, but if revelations off the field can be said to confirm that Griffey and Dunn were poor clubhouse influences, then revelations on the field confirm why the Reds need hitters with their particular talents.

But I’m absolutely willing to buy into the Ewing Theory in this particular case.

But if lineup construction can be proven to have little or almost nothing to do with a team’s success over 162 games then I’m gonna reject the plausibility of a leadership vacuum as being responsible for the Reds’ crap seasons.

It’s all a bunch of hot air and bullshit.

Because none of the poll choices really reflects my view.

I wasn’t glad to see either of them go, but I understood it, and expected it. Jr. is better off with an AL team at this point in his career. I kinda wish they’d found a way to keep Dunn, but I guess that bridge was thoroughly burned. I don’t think he was mailing it in. I think he was just very bad at defense.

i really thought him, Foster, and Collins would be a pretty solid outfield

Should have kept Dunner, put him at 1st, C-Dick in center and Joey in left.

They also release all of TEN as DLC on RB2.. Yes, my life has become spending endless hours in the basement playing RB2.. I don’t know what is going to happen when there are Reds games on and I have to decide between the two…

and part of that is because of the trades of the kid and Will Ferrell. Also, work + school + girlfriend + trying to be a functioning drunk = busy. I love what statistics have done for the game and I realize that baseball is a business mainly focused on winning games. However, baseball has been and will always be emotional for me. I have loved Griff since I got his rookie baseball card from Topp’s with a stale ass piece of gum. He was the only non-red that I idolized growing up. He is also the only player whose jersey I have ever owned. With Dunn, how can you not love him. He is a giant of a man, but gets walks like that little person Stengel used to put into games. This is added to the fact that my girlfriend would probably leave me in a sec for that ogre and one time while I was at a game a woman who was either really drunk or special needs kept on shouting “git-r-dunn!!.” In my 25 years I have been blessed with worshipping superstars such as Larkin, Chris Sabo (eye goggles and high socks superstar) and these two guys. I love Votto, Bruce, and many of the other guys, but this is the first time that I don’t have a favorite. I know a team is bigger than any couple of players, but its hard not to have personal attachments.