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Dear Dusty:

I'm scared.  Really, really scared.  There is yet more HAVOC available, and probably cheaply.  But there's a limit, isn't there?  There's already so much HAVOC on this team it's literally bursting at the seams.  The last thing we need is 4 "lead-off" hitters on the team (especially the kind that never, ever get on base).

Please, Dusty, stop.  We don't need to add to the HAVOC you've already created.  Just keep playing for the walk-off salami; it seems to be working OK.

Your pal,

Sid.

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But think of the possibilities

If we got John Peter, we would have FOUR CENTERFIELDERS on the team! Think of the range! Whoever is playing SS this year won’t have range anyway! So we can play Phillips as our Shorcendbaseman, and have Pierre and Taveras team up in left and right center! Having them both out there is key, not only for range, but also so they can serve as intermediary cutoff men for each other! DOUBLE BARRELED HAVOC IN CENTERFIELD.

Yours,
Bill Plaschke

by teb7 on Mar 5, 2009 6:57 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

There is more HAVOC than that available

This guy had one of the most famous HAVOCations, like, evah!

"How big IS your magic wand?"

by Slyde on Mar 5, 2009 7:25 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I disagree

I wouldn’t mind Pierre on this team (not at the 28.5 mil, maybe closer to half of that), and I wouldn’t mind more HAVOC.

In fact I am starting to enjoy Dusty as a manager (shocking myself here). Is he the best manager out there? Hell no. Is he better than our previous managers? Hell yes. The fact that he realizes the long ball has got us nothing but losing seasons says something. He can be a moron at times, but it is only spring training so I do not fault him for setting the guys loose on the base paths. Will the HAVOC plan work? Who knows, but I would rather try something new than just settling for being better than the Pirates.

Get’em on
Get’em over
Get’em in

Soy el niño destructor. I eat kids for breakfast. Roar. - Juan Francisco 'spoken with an Italian accent'

by jacob brumfield on Mar 5, 2009 7:52 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

As I bring the broken record back out...
The fact that he realizes the long ball has got us nothing but losing seasons says something.

Here’s how the Reds have ranked in the NL since 2000, their last winning season:

YEAR	R	HR	OBP		RA
2008 12 4 13 13
2007 7 3 8 15
2006 9 2 7 10
2005 1 1 2 16
2004 10 6 9 15
2003 13 6 14 15
2002 9 4 10 13
2001 12 9 10 14
2000 5 5 7 6

Two things should jump out:

  1. The runs scored for this team has closely tracked its OBP. If not for the HRs, this team would have been even worse.
  2. See that last column? The pitching/defense has ranked worse every single year (except last, when it was equally as bad) since 2000.

Often wrong, never uncertain.

by sidnancy on Mar 5, 2009 8:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

my take

I think we can all agree RA will drop further this year due to an improved defense (OF), and the best rotation we’ve had for decades.

Also the loss of Dunn will not dramatically drop our HR ranking. Improvements behind the plate, development by Bruce and Votto, and a Dickerson/Gomez platoon should suffice.

Guys getting on base—great. But I am tired of watching guys get on base then hang out waiting for someone to knock it out of the park. I’m tired of losing. I want something new. I don’t want guys bunting every at bat, but I also don’t want Phillips and EdE swinging for the fence every at bat. The ‘clogging the bases’ quote is pretty ridiculous but I am ready for something new. I want HAVOC.

So you can play your broken record, but I’m ready for a new sound.

Soy el niño destructor. I eat kids for breakfast. Roar. - Juan Francisco 'spoken with an Italian accent'

by jacob brumfield on Mar 5, 2009 10:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know of course, but what team and what season would you most like to emulate?

If you could pull up some examples of this style of play being successful over an extended period of time I would be right with you, but it seems to me that the teams with the highest obps and slugging percentages always do the best, and that seems to be validated by the stats that get thrown around nowadays.

"balls"-Slyde

by The Crushinator on Mar 5, 2009 10:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the angels

have had success with it for several years. but dusty is no mike soscia

by saboscork on Mar 5, 2009 11:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the Angels have been so good

because of great pitching and defense. BRef is being weird for me tonight so i dont have #s to back this up, but my Spideysense tells me that while their offensive #s have been below average, their pitching and defense have been well above. they arent winning 90+ games a year because of Sean Finnigans’ havoc, but rather because they cultivate starting pitching prospects like no other organization. John Lackey, Joe Saunders, Ervin Santana, Jered Weaver, Jarrod Washburn, Ramon Ortiz (when he was decent), not to mention K-Rod and Scot Shields were all homegrown arms.

a team like the Angels can succeed with a havoc-inducing (read: punchless) offense because they have a staff of arms that can more than make up the difference. i like the Reds staff this year, but i dont think they can carry this offense to the playoffs. even if Dusty Baker was Mike Scioscia.

My millions are unconventional!

by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 5, 2009 11:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

have faith chuck

a healthy Harang will lead our boys to the promised land, didn’t you hear about the conversation he had with a burning bush?

Soy el niño destructor. I eat kids for breakfast. Roar. - Juan Francisco 'spoken with an Italian accent'

by jacob brumfield on Mar 5, 2009 11:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

browsing through baseball prospectus

I believe they had a chart the Reds had the 6th best pitching last year when you adjust for defense. And that is in a year where Harang had a horrid stretch when he got injured by Dusty and the 5th starters were significantly below replacement level.
If Owings or Bailey can emerge in the 5th spot/ Baker doesnt abuse any starting pitcher- with improved defense at SS, RF and LF- I think the Reds runs allowed number can take a signficant jump up.
Offense is a different story since the Reds decided to replace Corey Patterson with a player that provides about the same offensive output just in a different and exciting way.

by davidmac84 on Mar 6, 2009 12:44 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

Pitching and defense has been the Angels’ key. Offensively the Angels gamble on their ability to hit for contact, which can vary wildly from year to year. When they won it all in ’02 they had the highest AVG in the league and scored the 4th most runs, but with mostly the same team the next year they dropped to 7th in AVG and 11th in runs, finishing below .500.

They won 100 games last year (well above their Pythag) despite their offense, not because of it. They were 10th in the league in runs, playing in a slight hitter’s park. They were 2nd in steals but middle of the pack in AVG (7th) and below average in OBP (11th). But they had the third best ERA and a very good bullpen.

by ken on Mar 6, 2009 8:07 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well..
I think we can all agree RA will drop further this year due to an improved defense (OF), and the best rotation we’ve had for decades.

If the Reds had allowed 50 fewer runs last year, they still would have been 9th in RA. And the defense won’t be improved that much – for all of his hitting problems, Patterson was an excellent CF, and there is no one presently on the team who is as good. Also, I’m not convinced defense at SS will be any better, and Hernandez has a reputation as a terrible C. So our defense is likely to be no better, and probably worse, at the 3 most important defensive positions, while better at the least important – LF (unless Gomes gets significant playing time, then even that isn’t a given).

Also the loss of Dunn will not dramatically drop our HR ranking.

It’s kind of hard to fall out of bed when you sleep on the floor. The Reds were 12th in HRs last year, in a homer-happy park.

Guys getting on base—great. But I am tired of watching guys get on base then hang out waiting for someone to knock it out of the park. I’m tired of losing. I

I’m tired of losing, too. But every study on run scoring shows a high correlation between RS and OBP+SLG, and almost none between RS and SB. So you can think what you want, but getting on base and hitting the ball hard are what score runs, which is the only thing an offense is supposed to do.

The other thing is (and again, this has been said on this site many times before) a disruptive runner is shown to be more disruptive to the batter than to the pitcher/defense, so the effect of HAVOC is compounded.

Often wrong, never uncertain.

by sidnancy on Mar 6, 2009 9:12 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Excellent points!
I’m tired of losing, too. But every study on run scoring shows a high correlation between RS and OBP+SLG, and almost none between RS and SB. So you can think what you want, but getting on base and hitting the ball hard are what score runs, which is the only thing an offense is supposed to do.

Quite correct. The thing I’m seeing from both reporters and a lot of Reds’ fans (who are listening to said reporters) is that they’re producing an illogical correlation between offensive “style” and good offense. Yet, as you noted, aesthetics really has nothing to do with proficiency. The Reds haven’t been a losing squad because they’ve been playing a bad style of offensive baseball. They’ve been losing because they haven’t been able to prevent opponents from plating Runs at an acceptable level.

The other thing is (and again, this has been said on this site many times before) a disruptive runner is shown to be more disruptive to the batter than to the pitcher/defense, so the effect of HAVOC is compounded.

That’s another really good point and I think a lot of folks haven’t considered the concept that if you’re going to rely on speed guys cutting lose on the bases, you’d better back them up in the lineup with very proficient contact hitters because the guys following the HAVOC are going to need to be able to hit late in the count and likely in a lot of Pitcher’s counts in order to enable said HAVOC. But I look around the Reds’ roster and I just don’t see a match. Hmn…

by SteelSD on Mar 6, 2009 9:32 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think we have different opinions on what HAVOC really is...
But every study on run scoring shows a high correlation between RS and OBP+SLG, and almost none between RS and SB

HAVOC is not just stealing bases, it is the general concept of aggressive base running combined with small ball techniques like bunting, chewing toothpicks, and sacrificing.

So you can think what you want, but getting on base and hitting the ball hard are what score runs

This is exactly what I am tired of. Watching guys get on base then wait around for a big hit. It has gotten us nowhere. Let’s get guys on base and then aggressively try to get them in. If we had a team with high OBP+SLG, that would be wonderful. But as long as we don’t, let’s try to get the most out of the guys we get on base.

Soy el niño destructor. I eat kids for breakfast. Roar. - Juan Francisco 'spoken with an Italian accent'

by jacob brumfield on Mar 6, 2009 11:19 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So you can think what you want, but getting on base and hitting the ball hard are what score runs
This is exactly what I am tired of.

???
So you’re tired of watching the team do what it takes to win?

Watching guys get on base then wait around for a big hit. It has gotten us nowhere… But as long as we don’t, let’s try to get the most out of the guys we get on base.

Except, as shown above, they’ve only consistantly done one of those things – get the big hit. It’s the lack of getting on base in the first place that’s been the problem with the offense, and the addition of guys like Tavares (and hypoathetically, Pierre) wouldn’t solve that problem.

Often wrong, never uncertain.

by sidnancy on Mar 6, 2009 12:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I hit post too quickly...

(to add to my point about OBP)
Guys like Tavares (.308 OBP last year) and Pierre (.327) won’t help in that department.

Often wrong, never uncertain.

by sidnancy on Mar 5, 2009 8:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

but...

Are we actually going to be better than the Pirates?

Unfortunately, we’ve entered dangerous territory, where we’re in the same tier as the Pirates and the Royals.

Cincinnati Reds, Power of Tradition, or some bullshit like that…

by Highlifeman21 on Mar 5, 2009 10:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Also..

The Pirates and the Royals are bad but it’s not as if either of them finish dead last every year.

Didja know that since the birth of the NL Central, the Brewers and the Cubs have combined to finish last more often than the Pirates have by themselves? (MIL 3, CHI 5, PIT 7, CIN…zero! yay.)

"If you have a van or a car and it gets dark you turn on your lights that are called headlights but that's a funny name because vans and cars don't have heads. And real heads don't have lights."

by Fat Vegas Alan on Mar 5, 2009 10:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes but 2nd or 3rd or 4th or 5th all suck

Reds need to get to the playoffs period.

Perhaps a a flatbed truck loaded with cadavers will explode in front of a Star Trek convention. One can only dream and hope.

by Madville on Mar 6, 2009 12:17 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the Pirates are going to win the World Series this year

How can they not? They signed Eric Hinske, the human good luck charm.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Mar 5, 2009 10:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He's the Robert Horry of baseball!

Sort of.

I miss the old days of the internet when men were men, hot girls were middle aged men, and hot underage girls were FBI agents.....

by jch24 on Mar 6, 2009 9:38 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Or the Kenny Lofton

Often wrong, never uncertain.

by sidnancy on Mar 6, 2009 9:59 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd much rather have Eric Hinske

than T-Virus…

CDick in CF, Hinske and Gomes in LF, The Boss in RF.

Probably would have cost a lot less than T-Virus, too…

by Highlifeman21 on Mar 6, 2009 5:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd rather have Hinske than...

T-Virus…

Gomes/Hinske in LF, CDick in CF, The Boss in RF…

Much better OF than what we’ll see in 2009 the year of Willy Taveras…

… and much cheaper, too…

by Highlifeman21 on Mar 6, 2009 5:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I miss the old days of the internet when men were men, hot girls were middle aged men, and hot underage girls were FBI agents.....

by jch24 on Mar 6, 2009 6:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If it weren't for

1990, the Reds would be the Pirates.

And Caesar's spirit, ranging for revenge / With Ate by his side come hot from hell, / Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice / Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war; / That this foul deed shall smell above the earth / With carrion men, groaning for burial.

by Paul Householder on Mar 6, 2009 10:31 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Pirates did it three times in the early 1990s too.

The only difference between us and them was the WS win in 1990.

And Caesar's spirit, ranging for revenge / With Ate by his side come hot from hell, / Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice / Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war; / That this foul deed shall smell above the earth / With carrion men, groaning for burial.

by Paul Householder on Mar 6, 2009 10:55 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and twice as many consecutive losing seasons

The Pirates haven’t even reached 80 wins in the past 16 years. The Reds have done that 6 times in that span (yeah, I cheated at 80, so what?).

No offense to the Pirates fans, because I respect them for sticking with their team, but the Reds are not to that level of prolonged ineptitude yet.

"How big IS your magic wand?"

by Slyde on Mar 6, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

OK. I agree I guess.

The Reds aren’t quite that bad…yet… (“yet” being the operative word).

I suppose I have been /sly’d. Maybe it just feels like we’re as bad as the Pirates, because we’re constantly fighting them for last place in the Central.

That being said, we have had Corey Patterson on our team. Surely that creates some additional negative points.

And Adam Dunn's spirit, ranging for revenge / With Ate by his side come hot from hell, / Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice / Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war...

by Paul Householder on Mar 6, 2009 12:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

me thinks i'd rather have Pierre than the Virus

For some reason I always envision Cool Papa Bell when I see Juan.

90 wins in 09!!

by Caleb on Mar 5, 2009 8:20 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

When I see Juan

I think of Cool Papa Bell’s shitstain, because that’s the most apt comparison I can make of their abilities. Cool Papa > Ty Cobb in the minds of many of the observers of the day.

You went full retard. No one ever comes back from that. - Sgt. Osiris

by cesarhernandez on Mar 5, 2009 9:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

On second thought

I need to doublecheck my work. I believe it was Oscar Charleston>Ty Cobb. Cool Papa came a bit later I think. Either way, Cool Papa was the shit. Juan Pierre is shit.

You went full retard. No one ever comes back from that. - Sgt. Osiris

by cesarhernandez on Mar 5, 2009 9:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

FWIW

The Sporting News has Charleston and Cool Papa almost equally outdistanced by Cobb. However, Josh Gibson might be able to catch him.

"If you have a van or a car and it gets dark you turn on your lights that are called headlights but that's a funny name because vans and cars don't have heads. And real heads don't have lights."

by Fat Vegas Alan on Mar 5, 2009 10:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Griffey's on the list?!

Rah! I’ll show them all!
/Bonds

by Red Menace on Mar 5, 2009 10:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Willie Stargell's at 81. Really?

Hey Menace, what can ya tell me about ‘Watchmen’? I’m not a comic book guy and I’m not even a comic book movie guy but this thing looks two or three times as intriguing to me as Dark Knight or Iron Man or HellBoy or whatever. Maybe it’s just the way the ads are scored and edited.

"If you have a van or a car and it gets dark you turn on your lights that are called headlights but that's a funny name because vans and cars don't have heads. And real heads don't have lights."

by Fat Vegas Alan on Mar 5, 2009 11:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll weigh in on Watchmen

I already bought my tickets for a 12:30 p.m. show tomorrow. The graphic novel is just brilliant. I highly recommend it to everyone. I put it on my personal top 10 novels ever.

Watchmen has been deemed ‘unfilmable’ for years because of the dense, complex storytelling (not to mention the FX would have been hard to do in the 80s when it came out).

I’m sure the movie will suck in comparison. Since I’m resigned to that fact, I will try to enjoy it.

You went full retard. No one ever comes back from that. - Sgt. Osiris

by cesarhernandez on Mar 5, 2009 11:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think Brandanukkah's a big fan of the book

I only read it about a year ago so I don’t really have any fanboy allegiances (although that’s me at a recent costume party in my profile pic, so I guess it’s all relative).

I think if I were really into comics I would have loved it—it’s very much about comics, very meta. From what I understand the movie is visually like 300 and has a fealty to the source material that might test the patience of the uninitiated much like LOTR.

I was going to a midnight showing, but things came up. I’ll catch it at some point.

by Red Menace on Mar 5, 2009 11:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm kinda a fanboy

I still have my original copy from 20+ years ago and I have my Absolute Watchmen collectors editon. My wife is going with me (and believe it or not, I didn’t force her), but I warned her of impending dorkiness. I will be wearing two buttons….a Dr. Manhattan button and a Rorsharch button. I’m a nerd.

I really hope there is a fealty to the source material. Although I heard there were some changes the fanboys might not like.

You went full retard. No one ever comes back from that. - Sgt. Osiris

by cesarhernandez on Mar 5, 2009 11:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Cool. Thanks, nerds. :)

Anybody seen ‘Coraline?’

"If you have a van or a car and it gets dark you turn on your lights that are called headlights but that's a funny name because vans and cars don't have heads. And real heads don't have lights."

by Fat Vegas Alan on Mar 5, 2009 11:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I really want to see that

I love stories where little girls fall through magical tunnels/doors/holes to discover magical worlds.

by Red Menace on Mar 5, 2009 11:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

My 10 year old grandson gives it a 4 out of 5

Perhaps a a flatbed truck loaded with cadavers will explode in front of a Star Trek convention. One can only dream and hope.

by Madville on Mar 6, 2009 2:18 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Coraline was fantastic

In the most literal sense of the word. Wonderful movie, and a great return to children’s stories that scare the crap out of children (something Neil Gaiman lurves). I’m not sure what it says about me that I found the Other Mother so attractive.

I’d say take your kids, but I don’t have to deal with their nightmares. It’s definitely worth seeing for you though.

by Brendanukkah on Mar 6, 2009 10:47 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

not to be a spoiler

but did you hear Tales of the Black Freighter is a separate animated feature coming to DVD?

by Red Menace on Mar 5, 2009 11:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah I knew that

I’m actually happy about it. There really was no good way to fit that stuff into the movie. The DVD’s also supposed to have something regarding the Under the Hood bio.

You went full retard. No one ever comes back from that. - Sgt. Osiris

by cesarhernandez on Mar 5, 2009 11:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wait a minute.

Haven’t I already not understood this conversation once before on Red Reporter? Is this some kind of meta blogger mind fuck joke on me?

"If you have a van or a car and it gets dark you turn on your lights that are called headlights but that's a funny name because vans and cars don't have heads. And real heads don't have lights."

by Fat Vegas Alan on Mar 5, 2009 11:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah I knew that too

I don’t know how the climax will be, and I don’t want to know. The squid might have been too hard to pull off without looking a bit silly, I think. It’s been tough these last few weeks avoiding commericals and trailers for the movie.

You went full retard. No one ever comes back from that. - Sgt. Osiris

by cesarhernandez on Mar 5, 2009 11:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Verbinski

I loved ‘The Ring’ (and ‘The Mexican’… and someday soon I’ll be able to let you know what Presaton and I think of ‘Mouse Hunt’) but I cannot get through twenty minutes of any of those damn pirate movies. It’s like I’m watching some made-for-cable Naked Gun style spoof or something. Yankovikian, even.

"If you have a van or a car and it gets dark you turn on your lights that are called headlights but that's a funny name because vans and cars don't have heads. And real heads don't have lights."

by Fat Vegas Alan on Mar 6, 2009 3:30 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

you liked The Mexican? Really?

I really wanted to like it, but couldn’t ever really get into it. I kept on waiting for it to get entertaining.

...because there's already someone posing as Jacob Brumfield

by Cy Schourek on Mar 6, 2009 3:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Rec'd for coining "Yankovikian"

"You never pass up an opportunity to talk to a woman in a red dress." -- Buck O'Neil (1911-2006)

by "Red" Moskau on Mar 6, 2009 3:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Verbinski

Is that Dutch for “havoc”?

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Mar 6, 2009 4:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Gerard Butler is doing the voice of the main character

He pretty much has to do whatever Zach Snyder asks him to do.

by Brendanukkah on Mar 6, 2009 10:49 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Menace is correct (and thanks for the package I got in the mail yesterday, R. Menace!)

I’m a huge fan of the book. I started reading comics when I was in 5th or 6th grade. X-Men was a particular favorite, but I also started reading Wizard magazine, the trade publication. They kept raving about things like Watchmen (which was nearly a decade old by that time) and Sandman, which was just winding down the end of its run. I was intrigued by such high praise and resolved to check it out. Thankfully, my local library – which was right down the street from the comics store – had a copy of Watchmen as well as all the Sandman books. I went through them all as a high schooler and my little mind was blown. Not that I ever will, but I resolved that if I ever taught a high school English class, Watchmen and the Sandman series would be required reading. Actually, my brother got assigned to read Watchmen in a college English class this year. I need to talk to him and see what he thought.

Menace is right that the story is very much about comics. They have an initial group of superheros that dress act, and fight bad guys in a way that is remarkably similar to Golden Age Comics. The very first super hero in the Watchmen universe, Hooded Justice, has a similar appearance to the Monk, one of Batman’s earliest enemies. As the first generation grows older and starts to retire, a second generation takes their place in what has become a more violent era. They come into being in the 60’s, around the time Marvel started the Silver Age of Comics. By the 80’s, when Watchmen was written, violence in comics was a huge issue, and by now the Comedian, who used to look like a daffy clown, resembles a combination of the Punisher and Nick Fury. The Comedian goes through several costume progressions that are meant to mirror the madness, violence, and descent of society.

Even other comics are represented. Menace mentioned the Tales of the Black Freighter, which is a pirate comic (that also echos the plot and character motivations of Watchmen) inside the Watchmen comic. Alan Moore, the author, thought that in a world where superheros existed (and weren’t particularly revered), super hero comics wouldn’t be popular. Instead, the adventure and horror comics of the 50’s would still be popular, thus the kid is reading a pirate comic.

The fact that the characters in Watchmen so closely resemble other characters is no accident. DC Comics had recently acquired a stable of characters from Charlton Comics, and Moore originally wanted to write a story using established characters. Dick Giordano, the editor of DC, liked his idea, but realized that the story would leave those characters unavailable for future use, so Moore and artist Dave Gibbons invented new characters that would fit archetypes. Rorschach was influenced by the Question, Nite Owl II was influenced by Blue Beetle and Batman, and Captain Metropolis seems to be someone dressing up and pretending to be Captain Marvel (though his military background might hint at Captain America as well). Interestingly, Dr. Manhattan was influenced by Superduperman from MAD Magazine.

So that’s a lot about how Watchmen is about comics. It’s also about Reaganism and Thatcherism, nuclear proliferation, Cold War paranoia, and a sort of nihilism as to whether the world is actually better off if it doesn’t have heroes. And it’s a murder mystery. And it’s a big fight to save the world. And it’s got a great twist ending. When you go back and reread it and realize the exact moment the villain accomplishes the final part of his plan, it takes your breath away and just how subtle and meaningless the action is. There’s subtlety in the layout as well. In a chapter called “Fearful Symmetry,” the panels at the front and back of the issue mirror each other all the way into the middle where there’s a big splash panel that unites the two pages in the middle of the book (a rarity, as most of Watchmen is told in 9 panel blocks). So there’s a lot going on. That’s one of the reasons it was said to be unfilmable, but another reason is that Alan Moore wrote it in a way to highlight how comics could tell stories in a way that no other medium could. It was explicitly written to be a comic and making it anything else would weaken the tale.

I tell pretty much everyone I meet that they should read the book. I’m changing my line to, “Don’t read the book until after you see the movie.” That way you can enjoy the flick for what it is, and then read the book and go, “Oh, that was so much better!” I remember seeing Jurassic Park and just hating it because it was so inferior to the book. Best to watch first, then read, except in the case of Forrest Gump.

As for the movie itself? I’ve heard it’s visually striking, but it seems like there’s a lot of slooooowing down then SPEEDING BACK UP! in it. I saw the first preview before the Dark Knight, and ironically Watchmen, which was supposed to ground superheros in reality in a way that had never been done before, looked very comic-booky. Then the Dark Knight, featuring one of the great comic book icons, came on and actually did ground their superhero in reality in a way that hadn’t been seen on film.

I haven’t seen Watchmen yet. I’m going to, but I get the feeling that it will be like watching a Cliff’s Notes version. I doubt it can blow my mind in a way the book did. And Ozymandias’s costume looks retarded. But I’m really looking forward to seeing Jackie Earl Haley as Rorschach (brilliant casting in my mind), and I hope they can pull off the Mars scene. Anytime you want to geek out about Watchmen, I’m your huckleberry.

by Brendanukkah on Mar 6, 2009 10:44 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

all this jargon burns the retina

Soy el niño destructor. I eat kids for breakfast. Roar. - Juan Francisco 'spoken with an Italian accent'

by jacob brumfield on Mar 6, 2009 10:49 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Jurassic Park

I went through a period of reading Crichton as a young lad and Jurassic Park the book didn’t thrill me. He was ripping off his own theme park run amuck plot from Westworld. The only really cool element was the (somewhat) plausible explanation for bringing back dinosaurs.

by Red Menace on Mar 6, 2009 3:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you. nerd.

This interests me:

It’s also about Reaganism and Thatcherism, nuclear proliferation, Cold War paranoia, and a sort of nihilism as to whether the world is actually better off if it doesn’t have heroes. And it’s a murder mystery. And it’s a big fight to save the world. And it’s got a great twist ending.

As does this:

Watchmen the film kicks off with a bravura credit sequence that uses tableaux vivants colored like faded vintage comics to illustrate the decline of the Minutemen, a gang of self-made 1940s “superheroes” who lost their moral compass and wound up drunk, dead, or institutionalized. As the movie proper begins, we find ourselves in 1985, but not the one you remember: In this dystopian alternate reality, Richard Nixon is serving his fifth term, thanks to his superhero-aided victory in Vietnam, while the nation slips toward a WWIII-style nuclear confrontation with a far-from-fading USSR. Meanwhile, superheroic exploits have been banned by an act of Congress, and the Minutemen’s next-generation successors, a motley gang calling themselves the Watchmen, have been driven into early retirement.

(Though she
 seemed disappointed by the flick.)

So I guess I’m gonna check it out and hope I don’t scratch a hole in my head. Here’s hoping they blow things up real cool!

"If you have a van or a car and it gets dark you turn on your lights that are called headlights but that's a funny name because vans and cars don't have heads. And real heads don't have lights."

by Fat Vegas Alan on Mar 6, 2009 3:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Should this open the door to further comics for you...

Brad Meltzer did what Alan Moore orginally wanted to do (kill off an established hero and see what happens) in his Identity Crisis series. It gets you to empathize for a guy named Elongated Man a lot more than you ever thought possible.

by Brendanukkah on Mar 6, 2009 4:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm 5'9"

I have no empathy for anyone named Elongated Man.

...because there's already someone posing as Jacob Brumfield

by Cy Schourek on Mar 6, 2009 7:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

maybe

they aren’t referring to his height.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Mar 6, 2009 7:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Elongated Man, that's Mrs. M's old boy friend

Sounds like BubbaFan’s dating him now…

Perhaps a a flatbed truck loaded with cadavers will explode in front of a Star Trek convention. One can only dream and hope.

by Madville on Mar 6, 2009 7:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

hmm, so I have friends who are off to see Watchmen at 8:00

but I just saw the trailer for this, which looks 100x cooler. Christian Bale chasing down Johnny Depp-as-Dillinger. Filmed in Chicago, Wisco, and Illinois. Soundtrack by Otis Redding, good lord is this gonna kick ass.

Bonus: It also co-stars Channing Tatum, who got his start in, you guessed it, HAVOC

...because there's already someone posing as Jacob Brumfield

by Cy Schourek on Mar 6, 2009 7:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pee-Wee Herman'd

Wear something sexy to my funeral.

by Pops Daniels on Mar 7, 2009 1:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Saw it today

Jackie Earle Haley was fantastic. I thought the casting of Ozymandias was weak, and that Silk Spectre, while easy on the eyes, just can’t act.

I went in knowing it can’t compare to the book. But I was quite impressed with the job Snyder did in his adaptation. Some of the music choices were a bit odd, tho.

You went full retard. No one ever comes back from that. - Sgt. Osiris

by cesarhernandez on Mar 6, 2009 8:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that Silk Spector

shared a threesome with E and Sloan in the best episode of Entourage.

by Red Menace on Mar 6, 2009 10:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

saw it last night

i pretty much agree on all fronts. Ozymandias and Silk Spectre were ok acting, but Jackie Earle Haley was an absolute masterstroke. the whole cast was great.

and the ending was better than the book.

My millions are unconventional!

by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 8, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey BubbaFan--

Looking for a NY fans opinion.
If ARod goes the surgery route, do you see Cashman dealing for a 3B?? If so, in your opinion who could EdE fetch us?

Soy el niño destructor. I eat kids for breakfast. Roar. - Juan Francisco 'spoken with an Italian accent'

by jacob brumfield on Mar 6, 2009 4:23 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I think Cashman will be dealing for a 3B

From what the doctors have said, A-Rod will need surgery eventually. The injury will get progressively worse. It was already sapping his swing last summer.

But Cashman can’t say that. That would be telling the other teams, “Come bend me over.” So he’s saying, “A-Rod will play through it.” That’s what he did last year with Posada. Said Posada would rehab his shoulder without surgery, then traded for Pudge and sent Jorgie under the knife.

I don’t know if EdE is a fit, though. His defense is not exactly spectacular. And Jeter’s defense fell off a cliff last year. The left side would be pretty darn porous.

I’m not sure the Yankees have anything the Reds would want, either. They have a lot of aging sluggers, who probably need to be in the AL for their twilight years. They have a lot of right-handed pitching, but the Reds seem to be pretty set in pitching themselves.

Could we interest you in the scrappy, hustling Melky Cabrera?

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Mar 6, 2009 6:57 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

arrghhh

Melkbone and Dusty would be a horrible combination. Melky has good speed, but is a bonehead on the basepaths. Last year, they sent him down to AAA and told him they wanted to see him hustle more. “Hustle” to Melky apparently means running no matter what. He got thrown out trying to stretch a single into a double. He got caught stealing 2B. He got caught stealing 3B in the bottom of the ninth in a tie game. All this in three days.

Dusty would love him.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Mar 6, 2009 12:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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