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Around SBN: Troubled Yankees Join Troubled Red Sox In Last Place

Daugherty talks about DIPS, even if he may not realize it

Paul Daugherty today has an article where he talks about pitchers in the context of something other than wins.  My mind is officially blown.  Some excerpts:

So much of a pitcher's bottom line is out of his control. Defense, timely hitting, infield positioning, hard dirt. And on and on.

This is the exact premise of Defense Independent Pitching (DIPS).  There is a lot that is out of the control of the pitcher once the ball is put in play.  If you just look at what the pitcher can control, you have a much better idea of the quality of pitcher he is.

Two years ago, Arroyo was 9-15 and seen as having a bad year. Last year, he atoned, going 15-11. He was much, much better, of course.

Well, not exactly.

In '07, he threw 10 more innings, allowed seven fewer earned runs, five fewer walks and one fewer home run. Arroyo believes the quality start - six innings or more, three or fewer earned runs allowed - is the key pitcher's stat.

"Did I keep my team in the game or not?" he said. "That takes away people making errors, the bullpen blowing games, all that stuff I can't control."

In '07, when he was supposedly bad, Arroyo had 20 quality starts. Last year, when he was allegedly good, he had 18. The tangible difference: Run support. The intangible: Luck. He was almost exactly the same pitcher, both years.

Not to brag on myself too much, but this is straight from something that I sent to John Erardi who passed it on to Doc.  Arroyo was basically the same pitcher in 2008 as 2007, and it's nice to see that Daugherty realizes that now.

Kudos to Doc for stepping outside his normal shots at statgeeks and really looking at what we are trying to say.  We may make a numbers freak of him yet.

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Braggart :P

Consider my mind blown as well, you managed to knock some bricks off the Great Wall. Good job dude.

I miss the old days of the internet when men were men, hot girls were middle aged men, and hot underage girls were FBI agents.....

by jch24 on Mar 4, 2009 9:49 AM EST reply actions  

So he'll accept it, as long as he doesn't have to call it what it really is

Kinda like when I tell my 3-year old son, “no,no they’re not peas…..they’re space candy!”

by bengalred on Mar 4, 2009 9:49 AM EST reply actions  

Ooooohhhhh, I love space candy!

I miss the old days of the internet when men were men, hot girls were middle aged men, and hot underage girls were FBI agents.....

by jch24 on Mar 4, 2009 9:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Hmm..

They do come in a pod. Sounds cogent enough for me.

by Matt McWax on Mar 4, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Strange coincidence

I sent him an e-mail yesterday in which I tried to start a civilized discussion. I let him know that much of the information that he uses to argue against us is simply incorrect. I threw out a few examples. He responded civilly and told me to read today’s article about Harang and Arroyo. Extended olive branch seems to have been embraced. We’ll see.

Wear something sexy to my funeral.

by Pops Daniels on Mar 4, 2009 10:06 AM EST reply actions  

FWIW

It sounds like Doc has been contacting Erardi with more frequency lately, asking for pointers on what to look at. I guess now that the hated Dunn is out of town he can try to see what all of the fuss was about.

"How big IS your magic wand?"

by Slyde on Mar 4, 2009 10:14 AM EST up reply actions  

This is wonderful

If Doc can keep up this kind of objective analysis, and Arroyo keeps that mindset, great things are coming.

"Sometimes I listen for Griffey’s infectious laugh or Dunn’s humor and wit. But they’re gone." - Dusty

by BK on Mar 4, 2009 10:11 AM EST reply actions  

great things are coming?

Like more space candy?

I miss the old days of the internet when men were men, hot girls were middle aged men, and hot underage girls were FBI agents.....

by jch24 on Mar 4, 2009 10:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Exactly like more space candy.

"Sometimes I listen for Griffey’s infectious laugh or Dunn’s humor and wit. But they’re gone." - Dusty

by BK on Mar 4, 2009 10:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Members of the Reds' media speaking intelligently is the first sign of the apocalypse, right?

And I love the comments that have already popped up:

“I blame this article more on the two Reds crybaby pitchers than I do the author. What wimps! Trying to justify losing.”

Yeah – how dare these pitchers complain about shitty defense!! They should have used their grit and hustle to catch that ball in center field!!!

by D-Rock on Mar 4, 2009 10:25 AM EST reply actions  

I want to comment over there and rebut the moron (and obvious Yankees fan)

but I’m not sure where to even start.

"Sometimes I listen for Griffey’s infectious laugh or Dunn’s humor and wit. But they’re gone." - Dusty

by BK on Mar 4, 2009 10:40 AM EST up reply actions  

if you do comment over there, just remember...

..be nice so we might get asked back. And drop a space candy ref so we know it’s you.

"If you have a van or a car and it gets dark you turn on your lights that are called headlights but that's a funny name because vans and cars don't have heads. And real heads don't have lights."

by Fat Vegas Alan on Mar 4, 2009 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Better not.

They have the “CheviotSportsGodAlmightyXXXVIII” or whatever that dude’s name is. When you have an omniscient sports fan in your midst, you pretty much win every argument. Do we have one?

Are you a god?

Phone's ringing, Dude.

by rjdio on Mar 4, 2009 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Maybe I should go over there

and offer rub-downs. Everyone seems so tense.

I heart Man Mounting.

by Gay Jesus on Mar 4, 2009 10:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Dude, I'm a king.

"Sometimes I listen for Griffey’s infectious laugh or Dunn’s humor and wit. But they’re gone." - Dusty

by BK on Mar 4, 2009 10:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Appointed by God, then.

You’ll do.

Phone's ringing, Dude.

by rjdio on Mar 4, 2009 10:54 AM EST up reply actions  

What about you?

You’re the Holy Diver, right?

Wear something sexy to my funeral.

by Pops Daniels on Mar 4, 2009 10:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Wear something sexy to my funeral.

by Pops Daniels on Mar 4, 2009 10:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Metal God, yes.

But I fear what my metal minions would do if I defended Arroyo.

Phone's ringing, Dude.

by rjdio on Mar 4, 2009 11:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Dammit Ray!

when someone asks if you are a God, you say “YES”!

My millions are unconventional!

by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 4, 2009 11:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Truely one of the great Movies of the 20th Century

Right up there with A Day at the Races
Gone with the Wind
3 Faces of Eve
The 7th Seal
8 & 1/2
Remains of the Day

and a few others I’ve unfortunately left out due to sever brain fatigue and neuron damage

Perhaps a a flatbed truck loaded with cadavers will explode in front of a Star Trek convention. One can only dream and hope.

by Madville on Mar 5, 2009 12:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, that guy's not so smart.

He doesn’t even realize that some of the pitchers he’s citing actually support the concept he’s arguing against. You could break out Mariano Rivera’s K rates, HR rates, and BIP event rates to demonstrate that he’s one of the rare birds who can effectively remove defensive impact from the mix at an extreme level, but I doubt that guy would understand the words you’d be typing.

by SteelSD on Mar 4, 2009 10:56 AM EST up reply actions  

that guy goes off the deep end

I’m not even sure he understands the words he is typing.

"How big IS your magic wand?"

by Slyde on Mar 4, 2009 11:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Starts with M, ends with e

And leaves you needing an Advil in the middle.

by Brendanukkah on Mar 4, 2009 11:01 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

do you wake up in the middle of the night with these ideas

and then write them down on your little notepad next to your framed picture of Rashida Jones?

"How big IS your magic wand?"

by Slyde on Mar 4, 2009 11:02 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah but at least our rambler is charming

I miss the old days of the internet when men were men, hot girls were middle aged men, and hot underage girls were FBI agents.....

by jch24 on Mar 4, 2009 11:04 AM EST up reply actions  

You Rang ?

If commanded, I will go forth into the West-side wilderness..oh Pharaoh Brendanukkah…along with my trusty cyber-sidekick Gay Jesus and the "CheviotSportsGodAlmightyXXXVIII" will be be seen for what he is: an impostor diety, charlatan and mentally incontinent. And we will smote….(smote not smoke) him.

Perhaps a a flatbed truck loaded with cadavers will explode in front of a Star Trek convention. One can only dream and hope.

by Madville on Mar 4, 2009 12:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, it's so easy...

Find a pitcher who is really good, don’t understand why the pitcher is really good, and then use said pitcher to try to debunk an article that actually helps explain why the pitcher is really good.

Genius.

by SteelSD on Mar 4, 2009 11:09 AM EST up reply actions  

I was gonna say that you left out Step 3: Loggins

but then it looks like that episode of Yacht Rock no longer exists on the internet. Crap.

"How big IS your magic wand?"

by Slyde on Mar 4, 2009 11:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Whoa Slyde, hold the line!

We’re taking the internet in a whole new direction for the 80’s! Smooth videos that rock! If you don’t change your browsing patterns with the times, you become an irrelevant joke.

Here it is.

by Brendanukkah on Mar 4, 2009 11:48 AM EST up reply actions  

I thought it was episode 3

that episode is gone.

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us<

"How big IS your magic wand?"

by Slyde on Mar 4, 2009 11:54 AM EST up reply actions  

soooooo I'm gonna be spending the afternoon watching Yacht Rock

Thanks, Brendan and Slyde!

...because there's already someone posing as Jacob Brumfield

by Cy Schourek on Mar 4, 2009 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

It's about time

"How big IS your magic wand?"

by Slyde on Mar 4, 2009 11:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Hey RRs, I bet you thought the Slyde/Chandrathan feud was ad-libbed

it turns out, you can cut through 2 years of inside jokes with less than 6 minutes of Yacht Rock!

...because there's already someone posing as Jacob Brumfield

by Cy Schourek on Mar 4, 2009 7:41 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

thanks!

now I can keep the fire burning.

"How big IS your magic wand?"

by Slyde on Mar 4, 2009 12:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I have learned the hard way

that if you are trying to take part in a civil, intellectual discussion, it is vital to make sure that your audience can understand your point as stated and comprehend what you have written beyond their own presuppositions, biases, and ego, even if they don’t agree.

If the ears are closed, the mind hears nothing.

I laid my bed and I'm going to have to sit on it. - A-Roid the Liar

by PeteyHendrix on Mar 4, 2009 1:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Is that actually from something you sent him? Cause in all seriousness you should bust his ass

for plagarism if he didn’t give you credit and thats SUPER fucked up.

The greatest delight which the fields and woods minister, is the suggestion of an occult relation between man and the vegetable.

by The Crushinator on Mar 4, 2009 10:36 AM EST reply actions  

well, I sent Erardi a thought on the fact that Arroyo was basically the same pitcher in 2007 as 2008

he told that thought to Doc who was surprised to say the least. Doc researched the actual numbers from the article, so unless I could prove that I am the only person ever to think that Arroyo was the same pitcher in 2008 as he was in 2007, I doubt I have a case.

And honestly, i don’t care on something like this anyway. I’m more than happy to enlighten the MSM a bit if it helps break up a few myths about the game.

"How big IS your magic wand?"

by Slyde on Mar 4, 2009 10:52 AM EST up reply actions  

I really don't get how this is a myth

Even a pretard could understand that a lot of a pitcher’s stats are directly influenced by the rest of the team’s ability to catch the damned ball.

“The secret of my success was clean living and a fast outfield.”
— Lefty Gomez

I miss the old days of the internet when men were men, hot girls were middle aged men, and hot underage girls were FBI agents.....

by jch24 on Mar 4, 2009 10:57 AM EST up reply actions  

your pretarded

Made from 100% recycled awesome,

by chandrathan on Mar 4, 2009 11:22 AM EST up reply actions  

so's you're face

We want to build long period of time. I didn’t come here for the shot run.

by Gray on Mar 4, 2009 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

your mean

Made from 100% recycled awesome,

by chandrathan on Mar 4, 2009 11:45 AM EST up reply actions  

I should also note that Doc goes a little too far in this article

Harang’s record last year wasn’t just because of bad luck. He pitched like crap from his relief appearance until he went on the DL and got pounded (1-7, 9.06 ERA in those 10 starts). I think his injury had something to do with that, but obviously his bad luck wasn’t just because balls weren’t bouncing his way.

"How big IS your magic wand?"

by Slyde on Mar 4, 2009 11:49 AM EST reply actions  

Feel good story of the day

The Minor Leaguer who was traded for some bats died November 5th of a drug overdose.

I miss the old days of the internet when men were men, hot girls were middle aged men, and hot underage girls were FBI agents.....

by jch24 on Mar 4, 2009 12:08 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

damn

now i gotta pour another beer on the ground for my dead homies….

"Hey! Look at the kid in the sombrero!"

by obc2 on Mar 4, 2009 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

holy cow

That is such a sad story.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Mar 4, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow.

Way to kill the mood in here, dude.

We want to build long period of time. I didn’t come here for the shot run.

by Gray on Mar 4, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

that's why we don't like it when jch joins us at RR functions

if he didn’t get us free tix occasionally, we wouldn’t invite him at all

"How big IS your magic wand?"

by Slyde on Mar 4, 2009 12:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Instead of throwing people away

How do you feel about trading them in for bats? That couldn’t have been good for the ol’ self-esteem.

by Brendanukkah on Mar 4, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't really get that, though.

I mean, I know it sounds funny and all, but reading through this article the explanation for how it happened kind of makes sense. He couldn’t get into Canada, so they had to trade him; the deal for a player fell through, and they had a stupid reason not to take cash. Surely someone explained this to him, right?

Maybe he didn’t believe it, but I don’t see how this is what does in a career minor leaguer. I guess it could have brought into stark relief the fact that he had never risen above single A. Sad if that’s really what did him in.

We want to build long period of time. I didn’t come here for the shot run.

by Gray on Mar 4, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

After thinking about it for awhile

What gets me is that if he’s traded for cash, the stigma he seemed to have struggled with is gone. (Not that this is the sole reason for the tragedy, it’s almost assuredly one of numerous causes) The only reason he was traded for bats was due to a perceived stigma that would’ve been placed on the minor-league club, so the club ended up just passing the stigma down the line.

by RedStalk on Mar 4, 2009 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Hear hear

I am quite pumped that NY state is finally about to repeal the Rockefeller laws.

by teb7 on Mar 5, 2009 1:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Things I've told Slyde, fyi

For the record all this is my intellectual property

*Arroyo is personable

*Owings can hit

*Captain’s and Diet sucks

*jch is a babymaking machine

*madville is eccentric

*the economy is going to struggle in ’09

*The Reds dont have enough offense this season

*GABP is a nice place to see a game

*"Ball Four" is the best baseball book of all time.

*The Reds broadcast team, as a whole, is pretty damn special

*The Reds should have drafted Lincecum instead of Stubbs!!!!

"Hey! Look at the kid in the sombrero!"

by obc2 on Mar 4, 2009 12:21 PM EST reply actions  

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