Red Reporter: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Around SBN: ACC Power Rankings: 2.8

Optimizing the Reds Lineup By The Book

Sky Kalkman over at Beyond the Boxscore has been talking a lot lately about building lineups going strictly by The Book.  Not the Old-School, Dusty Baker, Manufacturing Runs and Causing Havoc Book, but this Book.  He does all the exegesis in his article, so I'll let you pop on over there to read it rather than explaining here again.  You can also check out a few of the teams that have already been done to get a better handle on what exactly is going on here. 

Anyway, Sky would like a database of each of the teams over at BtB, so I figured I could handle putting this together for our Reds.

Star-divide

First off, we need projected stats for '09.  CHONE's numbers will work just fine here.

Player R150 AVG OBP  SLG
Joey Votto 9 .285
.365 .494
Edwin Encarnacion 8 .281 .360 .485
Jay Bruce 4 .276
.334 .509
Ramon Hernandez -7 .266 .332 .435
Brandon Phillips -9 .271 .325 .455
Chris Dickerson -15
.238 .330
.419
Alex Gonzalez -17 .258
.312 .410
Willy Taveras -22 .273 .328 .341
Jonny Gomes
7 .255 .357 .507

 

(Only 3 of our regulars project to be above average?  Cripes.)

Since we will most likely have a platoon in LF with Dickerson and Gomes, we'll have two different lineups to project here (and it looks like they will be pretty different).  They are sorted from best to worst according to offensive runs created above average per 150 games (R150), with Gomes tacked on at the bottom there. 

So, let's get to setting these guys in a batting order.  Our top 3 hitters are Votto, EdE, and Bruce, so they go in the #1, #2, and #4 spots.  According to The Book, the leadoff guy should be the one of these three who is least reliant on home runs.  EdE and Votto are pretty much identical according to CHONE, but I think Votto is going to hit with more power than both this projection and EdE.  Normally you'd put a speedy guy (like Taveras) here, but as The Book explains, stolen bases don't matter a whole lot in front of the big boppers who are going to come up 2-3-4-5.  So while Votto has decent speed and EdE is a bit of a clunker on the bases, we'll stiill put EdE in the leadoff spot, giving slightly more credence to Votto's power.

the old-schoolers would put a slappy bat-control guy (Gonzalez) in the 2 hole, but The Book says it should be the best overall hitter on the team.  You want OBP here, and Votto is the best guy on the team in that department.  But honestly, you could probably flip EdE and Votto in the 1 and 2 slots and it wouldn't make much difference.  Hooray for roster flexibility!

That leaves Bruce for the 4 slot.  old-schoolers would say the big power bat goes here to hit those big 3-run-homers, and they're actually kinda right.  You want the one of your top 3 hitters with the best power in the 4 spot, and that is Jay Bruce.

Now the #3 and #5 slots are next.  Old-schoolers would have their best high-average hitter in the #3 hole (like Ken Griffey Jr) so he could drive in the lead-off guy after he was sac'd to 2B.  But The Book actually says the #5 slot is MORE important than the #3 slot, because the #3 guy comes to bat more often with 2 outs.  And they come to bat more often with fewer runners on base than the #4 and #5 guys.  So you want your #5 guy to be the better hitter.  UNLESS he is a homer-heavy kinda hitter.  These two slots are between Hernandez and Phillips, and since Hernandez projects to be a slightly better hitter, he'll go 5th.  Plus, Phillips gets a good deal of his value from the homer, so that fits pretty well. 

As for the 6-9 hitters, it's basically just as the old-schoolers would have it.  You put what is left in decending order of skill, with the pitcher hitting 9th.  But as Sky says,

"stolen bases are most valuable ahead of high-contact singles hitters, who are more likely to hit at the bottom of the lineup.  So a base-stealing threat who doesn't deserve a spot higher in the lineup is optimized in the #6 hole, followed by the singles hitters." 

Sounds tailor-made for Willy T, right?  Well, not exactly.  The guys we have left are Dickerson, Gonzalez, Taveras, and the pitcher.  Dickerson is really not a high-contact singles kinda guy, as he projects to K a good bit and hit for some pop.  The same kinda goes for Gonzalez.  Also, Dickerson will certainly swipe a few bags, so the 6th spot is probably best for him.  Gonzalez will bat 7th, and the pitcher will go 8th.  It's slightly better to have a better hitter than the pitcher in the 9 position to act as kind of a second lead off guy.  If you have a decent hitter hitting 9th, then there is a better chance someone will be on base for your good hitters.

So that gives us a lineup that looks like this:

EdE
Votto
Phillips
Bruce
Hernandez
Dickerson
Gonzalez
Pitcher
Taveras

Compare to Dusty's projected lineup:

Taveras
Gonzalez
Votto
BP
Bruce
EdE
Dickerson
Hernandez
Pitcher

This is a pretty drastic change from the Dusty ol' lineups we'll be seeing come April.  Taveras and Gonzalez will most likely hit 1-2 instead of 9-7.  Hernandez is hitting 5th here (how depressing is that?) instead of 8th for Dusty.  Now, as for when Gomes is in LF instead of Dickerson, here is how that lineup should look:

EdE
Votto
Hernandez
Gomes
Bruce
Phillips
Gonzalez
Pitcher
Taveras

Gomes slots into the 4 hole because he becomes one of our top 3 and everyone else is knocked down a peg.  Hernandez is moved up to 3rd, Bruce hits 5th, and BP slots in at 6 to take advantage of his base stealing abilities. 

So that is what the Reds lineup SHOULD look like in order to maximize run production.  It doesn't really change a whole lot production-wise from what Dusty will be writing in, but every run counts, right?  The important point to understand here is that the top of your lineup is going to get the most ABs, so you want your best hitters (highest OBP) there.  Taveras and Gonzalez hitting 1 and 2 is basically doing the exact opposite.

1 recs  |  Comment 25 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

I actually just got finished reading Sky's article when I came back to RR to see this

very timely

"I never should have given up the animation rights."

by BobbyO on Mar 26, 2009 5:11 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Question

If you comprised two different lineup – vs righties and vs. lefties, did you also use seperate projections for each player? i.e. when optimizing the lineup vs righties, only use Votto’s projected stats vs righties, etc.

by rivercity.redleg on Mar 26, 2009 5:12 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

no i didnt

projections systems do not publish different projections for lefty/righty splits and stuff like that. at least, as far as i know they dont. so we are stuck with these basic overall projections. i didnt really put together two different lineups to show what the Reds should look like against left-handed or right-handed pitchers, but rather to show what they should look like with Dickerson or Gomes in LF.

also, i only used CHONE’s projections for this little experiment. CHONE is a perfectly fine projection system and it is generally one of the more accurate ones, but you could also take a look at ZiPS or Marcel or Bill James’ and get a different picture. for example, James is really bullish on Dickerson, projecting a line of .268/.360/.454. that is an OPS of .814, as opposed to CHONE’s projected OPS of .749. that is a difference of 65 points.

the point was less to show who should hit where and why, and more about the general lesson that the top of the order is not for out-making.

My millions are unconventional!

by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 26, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

hey, I'm about to get back on the road to head back to Cincinnati

but I wanted to let you know that PECOTA has R/L splits. About half-way down the player page there is a PLATOON section. If you don’t have a BPro subscription, perhaps someone who does can dig up the splits for you just to see what the breakout would be. I’d get it for you, but I don’t have time right now.

"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty

by Slyde on Mar 26, 2009 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ahhhh cool

i dont have a BPro subscription, which is why i didnt know about it. anyone ’round here got one?

My millions are unconventional!

by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 26, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough

I just think it would be interesting to see how the lineup would change when using projections with the splits. Especially since we have so many players whose splits are so polarized. i.e Brandon Phillips and Jonny Gomes.

by rivercity.redleg on Mar 27, 2009 8:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

see below

"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty

by Slyde on Mar 27, 2009 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There was some lineup-analyzing tool

that one of us put lineups through last year and we realized what we already knew: that Dusty’s lineups suck. I’m sorry I’m not being more specific, but can we put these lineups through that tool?

by ThePensive on Mar 26, 2009 5:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't bother.

That tool hasn’t been updated in a while and it’s set up for 1998-2002 data – the steroid era of much higher run production.

---
Juuuust a bit outside!!
http://www.rightfieldbleachers.com

by Jack Moore on Mar 26, 2009 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ah.

That’s too bad…I would like to see if this lineup is really optimized according to that…although I suppose it might be redundant, since we’d be using a tool that’s based on some data to evaluate lineups based on the same data.

by ThePensive on Mar 26, 2009 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Baseball Musing's lineup tool

is probably what you were remembering. Last year’s post .

by ken on Mar 26, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yep

that’s the one.

by ThePensive on Mar 26, 2009 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Very interesting

and a good read to boot.

Thanks for posting this.

by Obi Juan Kenobez on Mar 27, 2009 12:20 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

PECOTA Splits

Here are the PECOTA splits for 2009:

Player              vs RHP           vsLHP
Hernandez .259/.322/.393 .276/.348/.435
Hanigan .226/.306/.310 .247/.331/.351
Votto .301/.388/.572 .263/.344/.475
Phillips .276/.327/.437 .296/.356/.482
Gonzalez .245/.301/.390 .262/.325/.428
Hairston .278/.335/.433 .297/.358/.471
Keppinger .278/.331/.353 .301/.364/.402
Encarnacion .277/.354/.474 .298/.383/.511
Dickerson .257/.351/.479 .220/.304/.375
Gomes .231/.324/.454 .252/.353/.496
Taveras .259/.313/.311 .276/.335/.349
Bruce .295/.359/.564 .257/.314/.470

I think those give us these lineups:

   VS RHP               vs LHP
1. Encarnacion 1. Hairston/Keppinger
2. Votto 2. Encarnacion
3. BP/Hairston 3. Votto
4. Bruce 4. Gomes
5. Dickerson 5. Phillips
6. Hernandez/BP 6. Bruce
7. Gonzo/Hernandez 7. Hernandez
8. Pitcher 8. Pitcher
9. Taveras 9. Taveras

BP and Hernandez would move around in the lineup vs RHP depending on who is starting at SS.

"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty

by Slyde on Mar 27, 2009 9:00 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Willy T batting ninth, the one constant.

He’s like a 9th lead off man

I don't need a hot breakfast to have a good time.

by 3 Fast 3 Furious on Mar 27, 2009 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

given these numbers

I’d probably start Gomes over Taveras vs. RHP and put DIckerson in CF, but I was trying to be realistic with the personnel.

"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty

by Slyde on Mar 27, 2009 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm trying to like Taveras

I’m trying real hard, Ringo. But I keep seeing stuff like this…

Two years. Two years. How long does Dusty have left on his contract? Oh, two years. That’s a whole lot of Havoc leading off Reds games for the foreseeable future.

by Brendanukkah on Mar 27, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Didn't know PECOTA did splits, that's actually a huge deal.

I remember Nate Silver discussing how much he regressing L/R split data and being happy he did it right.

Only consistency is Taveras in the nine hole, huh? Awesome.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Mar 27, 2009 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think they added splits last year when they expanded their PECOTA cards

it’s kinda just stuck in there on each card, so it can be hard to notice.

"It seems like we're not hitting because we're not getting hits." - Dusty being Dusty

by Slyde on Mar 27, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My friend once met Nate Silver's parents in a Barnes 'n Nobles in EL.

Good story, I know.

Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.

by andromache on Mar 27, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

EL = East Lansing.

It’s not in Florida. Good story, I know.

Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.

by andromache on Mar 27, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks

I really like that lineup vs lefties. I think these lineups make a little more sense.

by rivercity.redleg on Mar 27, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Cincinnati Reds. Community Guidlines
Start posting about the Reds »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Turtle17_small
Taveras traded to Oakland!

Recent FanPosts

Boobs34_small
Super Bowl XLIV
Spartans_small
SIS - RR Awards
39135485-59af19dbb26654095f910f34176af094_4ae8a81e-scaled_small
Predictions Group
Red_small
Thanks, RR.
Happyhanukkah_small
Why should we wish Man Mountain a happy birthday?
Reds2_small
25-man Roster of Fictional Baseball Players from Movies and TV Shows
Stubbs_small
Louisville Bats vs. Pittsburgh Pirates
Small
Look what Brandon Phillips did at the Winter Caravan
050897schourek_400x496_small
Reds V Cubs Position by Position

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recent FanShots

Kurkjian - Damon good fit in Cincy
Red Reporter Get Together Pics
Bug Quiz
That's Why I Chose Yale.
On Aroldis Chapman: "We really don't know what we have. We're going to...
Wojy Compares Rose, McGwire, Sort Of
Our Pitcher, the Movie Star
Brad Penny is in training
Vada Pinson's Death in 1995
MLB Network airs Documentary on Reds Rookie Team

+ New FanShot All FanShots >


Manager

Redsmouth_small Slyde

Bench Coaches

Joker-2_small jch24

Burger-king_small BK

Ken_fish_called_wanda_small ken

Happyhanukkah_small Brendanukkah

417898_small Gray

Jinaz-reds-avatar_small JinAZ

Baseballbugs-thumb_small Charlie Scrabbles

Untitled_small nycredsfan

Beat Reporters

Adelieicon_small andromache

Small riverfront76