Ballpark Digest - Rank your MLB Ballparks visited

There’s no question that it’s Fenway Park pre-2004. It’s a beautifully quirky park and the history is palpable. They’ve made a lot of improvements to it over the last several years and those are all upgrades.

The fan atmosphere has always been amazing. The PA is minimal, they pretty much only announce each hitter in turn. No fake clapping, no CHARGE!, no bobble head races. All of the energy in that park – and there’s a ton of it – comes from the fact that 36,000 fans are tuned in to virtually every pitch. I don’t think I’ve ever been to a ballpark where every minute of a game in mid-April felt important. And the intensity of that crowd grows in clutch moments too. Again, with no aid from the PA, those fans know when to stand and get into it on a crucial out in the 5th inning, let alone late in the game.

The only reason it was better before they won in ‘04 is that a lot of douche bags started coming after the team became champs. The intensity’s still there, though.

1. PNC Park. I kinda hope the Pirates have some glory days soon just to make that park a little more romantic.
2. Coors Field. There is something that I really liked about this place but I can’t put my finger on it. I didn’t even see the Reds there (Mets vs Rockies) and for some reason, I still really enjoyed it.
3. Jacobs Field. Even though it was one of the originals of the new designs, it still feels fresh.
4. GABP. I haven’t found a bad seat in the park yet and I don’t mind all of the stuff people whine about with it. It’s home.
5. Wrigley Field. Fun place to watch a game, especially when the Cubs lose.
6. Turner Field. Best jumbotron ever.
7. Old Busch Stadium. It was a pleasant place to watch a game. That’s about all.
8. Comerica. I wasn’t that impressed. I liked Tiger Stadium much more, and that place was uncomfortable.
9. Comiskey Park. Worst new park, hands down. I sat in the front section of the upperdeck and felt like I was a mile away.
10. RFK. Least favorite MLB park I’ve ever been too. Thankfully they moved on.

1. PNC Park. Just about perfect. Beautiful stadium. Easy access. Affordable. Fantastic view of the city across the river in right field. Knowledgeable fans who actually pay attention to the game and are considerate of others (don’t get up during action and block views).
2. Kaufmann. Like obc2 said, it is in the middle of nothing (well a big ass parking lot), but inside, its just about perfect. Clean, great views. The fountains are cool, and the prices can’t be beat. In 2005, I walk up there an hour before and get a single ticket about the fifth row between home plate and the dugout. Cost? About 20 bucks.
3. Riverfront. To me, this is still home, no matter how ugly it was. It was especially cool the last couple years with the construction and the outfield area torn out.
4. Old Busch. Great access in a downtown location. Mike Shannon’s restaurant was nearby. Nice refurbishing of a cookie-cutter as it didn’t feel like one inside. Great fans. Really unnecessary to get rid of it.
5. Wrigley Field. It was nice and all, but extremely overrated. Lots of shitty seats. Lots of idiot Cubs fans. Field with the Ivy wall is beautiful. Parking is insane expensive. Ride the train.
5. Cleveland Municipal. It was a dump, but had damn, it had character. Trough-pissing is always a treat, and even the concourses smelled like the elephant house at the Cincy Zoo. I can’t imagine seeing a game from way out in center. Weren’t any douchy fans because the Indians had no fans back then.
6. Jacobs Field. Nice enough place, but kinda sterile. And those upper deck seats down the left field line are very high up. You also have to put up with Indians fans, a big minus.
7. GABP. There is just a general lack of good, affordable seating. Field level is fine, but I’m not shelling out that kinda money to have my view blocked my dumb-ass high rollers who don’t pay attention and constantly get up during the action. Ridiculous that the entire second deck down the first base line is all high-priced club seating. Access to the park is OK, but a longer walk now. Are they ever going to develop that hole where Riverfront was? I have noticed over the years a general dumbing-down of the average Reds fan at the ballpark. Perhaps they don’t know what good baseball looks like any more? Actually, I blame Marty, Tracy, Furman and Dock for this.

I have gone to less baseball over the last few years, and my distaste for GABP is a big part of it. I see that place as a missed opportunity for something special.

1. Wrigley – I hate the cubs, but it’s nice to see fans with such a passion and the roars when something good happens for the Cubs are awesome (much of their passion is alcohol-fueled, but that’s okay)
2. Camden Yards – there’s something about the warehouse in right field i really like
3. GABP – Good seats at field level, easy to get around
4. Jacobs Field – I was young when I visited and I saw the mariners (the 3 adolescent girls behind me screaming “Iiiichiiiroooo!” the whole game didn’t help), but it’s a nice place to see a game
5. US Cellular – Seats are kind of far away, it’s got great food though (the Italian Beef sandwich is great)
6. Riverfront – Meh. I remember really being awed by my first game there when the wave went all the way around the cookie cutter bowl.
7. The Astrodome – terrible. It’s like watching a game in an abandoned factory, no life, lots of echos

It’s like watching a ballgame on a giant movie set. In a good way.

Forgive me for stating the obvious (to some) but that’s the Roberto Clemente Bridge outside the park. How beautifully perfect is that?

1: PNC-the backdrop is beautiful, and I tailgated with my fellow archeology students and prof off the back of a marked ONU van before a Reds/Pirates game last April.

2: GABP-It has a nice backdrop, that was nicer before that fuckin boat.

3: Coors-It is just well done. I was blown away by the mountains.

4: Wrigley-I enjoy the experience of the game, but the lack of modern amenities make me glad that going to Wrigley is something I do every few years rather for the experience rather than on a regular bases. If I am accepted to Loyola I may try to take in some games in April when the weather is shitty and tickets are easier to find.

5: Riverfront-Spent a great deal of my childhood there. I know it was terrible, but I still love that place.

6: Latino Americano Stadium in Havana- It makes RFK seem nice, but I have never been in an atmosphere like that. Every ball their team threw was booed, every strike was applauded (vice versa on offense). They applauded when the manager made a mound visit. I just wish I would have been around for a regular season game.

7: Jake-Nice place but nothing is special about it.

8: Turner Field-See 7

9: RFK-That place was dirty, terrible, nobody was there, and food was awful, and Phil Dumatrait pitched.

10: Tropicana Field-First and only domed experience. You enter the stadium, and you are in a brightly lit concourse with title floor, you feel you are in the mall, it is down hill from there.

My tops:
1. Wrigley – just a really fun place to watch the game and a gorgeous old building. Love the sign out front. Serious talent in the bleachers.
2. Fenway – agree with Ben Nevis.
3. Camden Yards – I’m probably giving it extra points for being the first retro park, but I love the warehouse and the overall feel. Great location, too.
4. County Stadium – it looked like a pile of tin from the outside. But it was intimate, had good sight lines, and Benny the Brewer actually slid into a mug of beer. In the best sense it felt like a minor league park.
5. Citizens Bank Park – for the food alone. Poor location, though at least it’s on the subway line.
6. Safeco – obc, if you like sushi you’ll love Safeco.

1. Camden Yards – George Will once said that the second most important thing to happen to baseball in the last 75 years, after Jackie Robinson breaking the color barrier, was the construction of Camden Yards. It was the first to make a retro, throwback style (the two stadiums built before Camden Yards were New Comiskey and the SkyDome, which went with a futuristic vibe that seemed silly just a few years later). Soon, everyone wanted their own brand new retro stadium. Irregular outfields! Quirky architectural designs! This will be the 18th season the Orioles play in Camden Yards. It’s now the 12th oldest actively used stadium. And it still holds up! Just a great experience, and right on the Inner Harbor.

2. Wrigley Field – I’m a sucker for the older architecture. The new stadiums can feel a little sterile, and I like the ones that feel organic. I visited for the first time last year, and caught an early April game between the Cubs and the Brewers. The wind was whipping in, the fans were loud and obnoxious, and I didn’t particularly care about the teams. But I loved everything about the stadium. The way it sits right in the middle of a neighborhood, the truly impressive number of bars (and what ken said about the talent in the stands goes double for the bars of Wrigleyville), and the fact that the place is always full make it a real favorite.

3. Turner Field – It seemed like this was Great American Ball Park with just a little more effort. The fan amenities seemed a little more interesting, the Coke bottle a little less cheesy than the Pepsi Power Stax, the whole place seems bigger and more imposing. Or maybe I was just that impressed by John Smoltz’s entrance.

4. Great American Ball Park – It’s the home team’s field! I think GABP is an underrated stadium. I love how green the grass is and how white and open the architecture is. I don’t know about party boat, but I do like that they incorporated the smoke stacks and paddle wheels into the design, and I love that’s right on the river. It would just be nicer if there was something around it.

5. Jacobs Field – Very similar to GABP, and the way it fits into downtown Cleveland works really well. I’d like Cincinnati to have that feel, but I also adamantly believe that baseball in Cincinnati belongs on the river. Anyway, I give the nod to GABP for homer reasons, and because the guy with the drum in the outfield is just damn obnoxious.

6. Nationals Park – I admit it. I like the racing presidents. The view of the Capitol is nice, but much more limited than you’re led to believe. Instead, use the south entrance and look over the Anacostia River and the Navy Yard. It’s a side of DC you don’t often see. Points for putting the main entrance behind left-center field, and major points for serving Ben’s Chili Bowl at the stadium. When the Half Street developments are finished and the Nats can field a decent team, this ranking may shoot up.

7. Riverfront Stadium – Where I first learned to love baseball. The squishy rubber things outside the stadium were always great to step on, and the Kahn’s Smoked Sausage ad was a favorite. I also liked that the seats were different colors and how cool you felt if you ever got to say you sat in the blue seats. I agree with cesar that it was really cool when the chunk of the bowl was missing during the construction years.

8. RFK Stadium – Yes, it’s a pit. But the outside facade is pretty incredible (think Riverfront with some rolling curves and panache). There are some neat features, like the white seats that show where Frank Howard’s upper deck shots landed. The whole stadium shakes (nowhere more so than the bouncy stands at soccer games), but it sort of makes you wonder what it must have been like when the great Redskins teams of the 80’s were playing there. The outfield was uglier than the Metrodome. This mostly a sentimental pick, but it’s also because DC United games are so damn entertaining here.

9. Tiger Stadium – Went up to see it before the team moved to Comerica. It seemed exactly like going to see a game in the old newsreel footage you see from the 1930’s. I thought it was awesome. Detroit scared the hell out of me.

10. Busch Stadium (old) – Absolutely nothing remarkable about the stadium. It seemed a lot like Riverfront, even down to the detail that it was on a river. I believe all the seats were red, though. The Arch is pretty cool.

11. Veteran’s Stadium – Went there on a class field trip in 8th grade. The field seemed a mile away. It was a similar style to Riverfront and Busch, but just icky.

Bonus: Coor’s Field – About a month after I went to Wrigley, I was in Denver. The Rockies were out of town, but I made sure to walk around the outside of Coor’s Field. It looks like an awesome stadium, and the views of the mountains are spectacular. It’s situated right by LoDo and there are a dozen breweries within a five minute walk. Had I actually seen a game there, I have no doubt that it’s in my Top 3.

Was my fav until the built that ridiculous boat.

1) The Jake: Clevelanders just REALLY CARE about their baseball, and it seems like one of the few parks that everyone is really into the team all the time. I’ve had a lot of fun everytime I went. And since its in Cleveland, I’m likely one of the 10 most physically attractive people at the ballpark! Yeay!
2) Wrigley: My first ballpark (Covaleski in South Bend isn’t going to count) and the one that I have memories of Tim Pugh and Juan Guzman in. I always feel like I should be wearing a grey suit and a derby hat, though.
3) Coors: Went there way way back for a game and loved it. Beautiful scenery, heeyuuuge park, and a nice area. I would love to go back one day.
4) Nationals Ballpark: The fact that they actually have bars and they have some tool bro-esque announcer aside, its a nice place. Nobody could care less about the game, but I don’t blame them. It was nice having a stadium full of Reds fans come for a Reds game, though.
5) GABP: I like the white-white-whiteness of it. And if I am allowed to include the Reds HOF, it would definitely be 2nd only to the Jake. I just think its a really pretty place. Could stand a few more fans, though.
6) Camden Yards: I’ve been to 4 games. 2 rain-outs, 2 times getting sick, and really never had a good time there. One of those rain-outs I left my sunroof open during, too.
7) RFK: I thought it was good old-timey, unlike number 8. And the president’s race is a lot of fun.
8) Yankees Stadium. Honestly…blah. But D-Train’s debut was worth it.

Ash and I talked about doing a PNC trip May 1st through 3rd. I’ve already got my clearance, so I would really like it to happen this year. We’ve talked about doing this trip in the past and maybe the Right Coasters can make it too (not terribly far from DC is it?)

Quickly my list.
1) PNC – agree with what everyone else said.
2) AT&T (PacBell) Ahh the smell of Garlic Fries.
3) Jake
4) GABP
5) Riverfront
6) Yankee (Old now I guess)
7) 3 Rivers
8) Mets (Same. ’90 – dump)
9) and following all those up is Oakland.

Almost identical, equally as antiseptic and equally as suck-ass

I really enjoy going to what ever the hell park’s called where the Florence Freedom play – maybe Champine field

1. Camden Yards – George Will isn’t right about everything, especially his uncomfortable affection for Tony Larussa, but he’s right about the significance. Great location convenience-wise, great location party-wise, easy access all the way around the park, and (surprise) a worthwhile crabcake at a ballpark!
2. AT&T (Pac Bell) – Feels like it’s part of the city. Love McCovey Cove and the kayakers. Benefits by the contrast with the terrible Candlestick Park that was left behind.
2 1/2. Fenway— I talked my way into the park in the third week of March because I was returning to Japan in two days. I imagine it’d be #1 if I actually saw a game there. I can’t get over how close to the field the seats are— I pictured getting wet if Wade Boggs spit to his right while at third base. Far more intimate and intense than the “Friendly Confines.”
3. GABP – I’ve been gone from the city for a LONG time, but I was a Broadway Commons proponent. Agree with what’s been said about the river and all, but it feels ADJACENT to the city, not a part of it— and PBS and whatever they call Riverfront Coliseum will keep it isolated no matter what they try to do with The Banks. The pregame festivities are relegated to KY, then jump the footbridge. Nothing wrong with NKY, but it’s tough to draw people across the river just to walk back across. Big ups for the Red Hall of Fame, the Moon Deck and wide-wide concourses.
4. Wrigley – meh. Damn near impossible to get to. Love the history and enjoyed the bleacher experience. Unbeatable neighborhood experience. Might like it more if I’d taken the chance to observe from the IF side of the ball park. I was appalled at the condition of the OF grass.
5. Memorial Stadium (Baltimore) – Pretty impressive, really. I think because it was a baseball stadium that squeezed in football, rather than a true multi-purpose stadium. A quaint neighborhood setting, too. I’m trying to keep the fans separate from my evaluation, but this felt like authentic Baltimore, not the tourist-shop version.
6. Riverfront – Of all the cookie cutters, only this one had the Big Red Machine history that just clung to the place— well, for me, anyhow. Unlike the other cookie cutters, the painted “Red Seat” homers were a plus, and Rose/Fosse plus the three WS championships, not to mention all the other playoff games earned the distinction.
7. Yokohama Stadium (Yokohama Baystars) – Intimate (30,000 seats). Good sushi, obc! Quirky because of “dirt base surrounds and pitcher’s mound, but with dirt colored turf infield and base paths” (Wiki explained it better than I could). I prefer Japanese drums, whistles, clackers to any piped-in Everybody clap your hands
8. Jack Murphy Stadium (San Diego) – Weather, alone, almost boosted this one up the ladder. Hat tip for including fish tacos in the stadium— kinda’ like Cincy chili, even if you don’t like it, you gotta’ include it. But like So-Cal, itself, there was no intensity to the place.
9. Tokyo Dome – Better nightlife, etc. in the neighborhood, but I’m philosophically opposed to indoor baseball, unless there’s a retractable roof. Tokyo doesn’t have Houston humidity/mosquitos, Miami rainshowers or Minneapolis cold to excuse the roof. Very claustrophobic for me— but I’m 6’2" and I don’t think the seats were made to accommodate me.
10. Veteran’s Stadium— a smellier version of Riverfront in a location with even less character. Strangely, as a football stadium I rate it higher than “The Jungle.” Must be the team.

1. LA Memorial Coliseum – I was there for a remarkable experience – the exhibition game last year at the House That Campy Built. 115,300 people – largest baseball crowd ever. It was like teleporting back in time to see a stadium configuration I’d only seen in black and white newspaper photos.
2. Wrigley Field
3. GABP
4. Angels Stadium
5. Dodger Stadium
6. Riverfront Stadium

Six?!? I’ve been to a lousy SIX frickin’ MLB stadiums?

I’ve also been to 3 minor league stadiums (Orlando, Colorado Springs, and Dayton) and 1 spring game in Cocoa Beach, Florida (I was working for free, but I got to stand on the roof, work a camera in the Yankee dugout, see Jim Abbott pitch, and fetch drinks for Gary Carter). I was at spring training in 1993 in Plant City, but didn’t see a game.

Bonus:
Tropicana Field – I worked an arena football game inside once.
Fenway Park – I was shooting a movie in New England and drove down to take an off-season tour of the Park. I had literally slept a miserable, cold, wet night on a gravel/tar paper roof of a Howard Johnson’s the night before (I had crawled out a window to clear room for my B-list buddy to nail some skank in our room). It would be worth it to tour Fenway the next day. Once inside, I was informed that contrary to their publicity, there were no tours that day. Suck.

Slugger Field-Class of minor league ball parks, nice backdrop, nice amenities, comfortable seats.

Victory Field (Indy)-Up there with slugger field, a nice place to take in a ball game.

Cooper field-Old and not real comfortable, time for an upgrade, there is a fine line between antique and shithole.

5/3 Dayton-Expensive, but an okay place to watch a game. Wedged in between a couple of warehouses, makes for a nice atmosphere.

5/3 Toledo-Not as well done as Slugger or Victory Field. Seats are at an awkward angel, and aren’t high enough up, so people constantly block your view.

Ft. Wayne-Adequate Single A ballpark, nothing special, but serves its purpose.

Steinbrenner-It felt like an empty barn, defiantly designed for the big crowds of spring training, because it feels rather empty in July.

Roger Dean Stadium (Jupitar FL)-It is adequate in a new subdivision, nice shops around it, but feels a bit sterile.

Richmond Indiana-Went there when they were still the home of the Frontier Roosters. It was a quaint ballpark, that was just a nice setting a spend an evening in.

Champion Window Field-I like it, it is modern and serves its purpose, nothing special about it though. Lots of planes fly over it on approach to CVG, (Shea-esque?)

Foundation Field-housed the florence freedom in 2003. It is a jr. college field, and serves Miami Hamilton. Not meant for professional ball, it had uncomfortable bleachers, and I think Hamilton West Side Little League has better concessions. It is in the middle of the worst neighborhood in Hamilton, and the visiting bullpen’s backs are exposed to the street…

Fenway
Wrigley
GABp
Camden Yards
Citizen’s Bank
PNC
Yankee Stadium
The Jake
Jack Murphy
Riverfront
Cleveland Municipal
Oakland
RFK
Shea

Spring/Minors:

Dayton
Indianapolis
Tigers Spring Complex
Ed Smith
Richmond

1. Oriole Park at Camden Yards. The evening gown of all new generation parks. Just quality all around, no shortcuts, no cheap materials. Lost of steel structure exposed behind the stands, but its real and its raw in a genuine kind of way (like the next pick).

2. Wrigley – Even though it’s packed with Cubs fans, the charm is overwhelming.

3. GABP. Funny but disappointing story. I bought tickets last August when I was in town for a weekend. Went with the wife, mom, dad, and younger brother. It was two or three days before Dunn was traded, and the park was nearly empty. At about the 5th inning, I decided I wanted to go check out the Reds museum. So my family and I walked around looking for the museum – there were no signs anywhere. So we asked three or four ushers and NOBODY knew where to send me. Well, I finally stumbled upon a glass door to the museum out by the front gate. I opened the door and walked right in. It was a little strange because no one was there and it was a little dark. Oh well, the door was open, right? So we walked around for about 20 minutes checking out all the stuff. And suddenly, some fat guy appears out of nowhere and says, “hey you folks aren’t supposed to be here! How did you get in here?” I’m like, uh, the door? He says “Well, we closed at 8:00.” Then he gives me attitude about leaving through the same door I came in because OBVIOUSLY that door is locked. I was just dumbfounded that the museum, that is AT the ballpark, CLOSES right at about the ONLY TIME DURING THE DAY WHEN YOU HAVE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE IN THAT EXACT LOCATION. What the hell is the point of that? So the museum gets major negative points.

4. Miller Park. just an all-around fine place to watch a game. And friendly fans to boot.

5. Riverfront – Maybe I was just small, but the stadium seem gigantic. So many different parts to go walk to, and the fact that the blue seat level was so hard to get into only made it more mysterious.

6. Fenway – Sorry, Fenway fans. The cost of going to a game there ruins the experience. The seats are tiny and they face the ourfield. And the fans smell.

7. Edison Field – It’s in, uh, Anaheim.

8. Dodger Stadium – Much better to fantasize about LA than to actually be there.

9. U.S. Cellular Field – it’s gotten better since they painted all the original blue seats and trim to black. They also have a lot of good food and beer, and there’s a bar behind the right field wall where you can bang on the glass windows where the visting pitcher is warming up. Still, it’s 9th.

10. Old Busch – Just ugliness all around.

1. Fenway. When you step inside, it’s like you’re on a planet where the only thing that matters is baseball.
2. PNC. The crown jewel of modern parks.
3. Wrigley. The outside is an eyesore, but the ivy and the scoreboard are great; great neighborhood as well.
4. Kaufmann. The upper deck is a gorgeous arc and it appeals to the architect in me. Just a great place to watch a game without too many distractions. Cheap beer, good food—I wish all ballparks were this simple.
5. New Busch Stadium. They’re pretty obnoxious about promoting it as “baseball heaven” but it is damn nice with a great view. Love the brick exterior.
6. GABP. It’s grown on me. The Hall of Fame is the best part. I see New York’s monument park and raise them a museum!
7. US Cellular. A surprisingly fun place to see a game; maybe I am just a sucker for the black trusses and toothbrush lights. White Sox fans are fun.
8. Comerica. A little blah, but nice sightlines and good concourses.
9. Nationals Park. Not much of an identity—I will reserve further judgment until they build up the neighborhood around it. Nice place to watch a game for now.
10. Miller Park. It’s way too cavernous and weird. Like watching baseball in an airplane hangar. Good food and amenities plus a nice tailgating scene. Most people seem to like Miller, but it’s just too big.
11. SkyDome. I last visited here in 1993, but it was pretty cool to see the CN Tower out of the roof.
12. Yankee Stadium. Decrepit. The sheer size of it was amazing, but took away from the actual baseball experience.
13. Riverfront. Home sweet donut.
14. Atlanta Fulton County. Don’t remember much from 1989, other than that there were only 2,000 people in attendance. Gotta love those Braves fans!
15. Shea Stadium. An utter shithole, but tucked away in the corner there was a phenomenal sandwich place—Leo’s from Corona. As a Queens resident, I am looking forward to attending games in a real park. I am also looking forward to the Shake Shack concession stand. Mmm, brisket burger.
16. Veterans Stadium. Soulless.

I will be making a Cali trip in August and really hope I can get to Pac Bell (or whatever they call it) and Dodger Stadium. I’m looking to go to Citizens Bank and Camden as well.

I’m glad to see Kaufmann get some love on here as well. It is criminally underrated.

but the Jake is easily the nicest. a beautiful park, and ive never had a bad seat. the guy with the drum in LF is probably my favorite thing in all of baseball. just splendid.

GABP is great, but Riverfront and Three Rivers made me question as a kid why anyone would ever want to go to a baseball game. my dad would always bring his binoculars and we would take turns passing them around. the first time i took him to GABP he wanted to bring them, and i was very proud to tell him he didnt need them.

1) Fifth-third field,(Dayton, Oh), home of a Reds single A team, the Dayton Dragons
   (not a bad seat in the house), nice grassy area beyond the LF wall

2) Riverfront Stadium. Yes concrete and metal everywhere, but that astroturf was so green and the different seating levels were color coated. Blue = field level, the one’s I loved…Green = 2nd level up, not bad and lots of foulballs…Yellow = padded seats in RF….and Red = nosebleed (hated Red seats, but not bad right behind homeplate)

3) Candlestick Park…say what?….yes, I saw quite a few games at Candlestick when I was stationed there while in the Marines….The park had huge speaker systems in CF, and they would crank the jams. Yes, it could get cold, but with the smell of people smoking weed I don’t think the fans were all that uncomfortable.

4)GABP….I’m sorry, but I go to a game to WATCH THE GAME! Too much going on for me. I grew up in Riverfront stadium. We could stay focused on the game because all that could be seen from outside the stadium was the top of the bank building. Put a good team on the field and the fans will come. True fans don’t have to have pretty views outside the field.