The Greatest Reds: #8
by riverfront76 on Dec 9, 2009 12:00 PM EST
in History/Hall of Fame
30 comments
8. Heinie Groh
| Played as Red | Primary Position | Career Rank | Peak Rank | Prime Rank |
| 1913-1921 | 3B, 2B | 10 | 6 | 5 |
| Percent Breakdown of Value | Best Season | Best player on Reds | ||
| Hit | Field | Pitch | 1917 | 1915, 1916, 1917, 1918 |
| 77% | 23% | 0% | ||
| Awards/Honors as a Red | Leading the League | On the Reds Leaderboard | ||
| N/A | Hit By Pitch – 1914 Walks – 1916 On Base Percentage – 1917, 1918 Doubles – 1917, 1918 Hits – 1917 Plate Appearances – 1917 Runs Scored – 1918 OPS – 1919 |
-11th in career OPS+ |
||
Early in the 1913 season, the Reds traded Art Fromme—a veteran pitcher who had about 250 innings left in his arm—for a package of three players and cash. The highlight of the deal for the Reds was almost certainly pitcher Red Ames, who was in his early 30’s and had already strung together many very good seasons. In the end, however, Ames was an afterthought and the 23 year old second baseman with the funny name became the lasting value. Groh played a season or two as a second sacker, and then made the permanent switch across the diamond to third base, where he became the league’s preeminent defender. Groh led the league’s 3rd basemen in fielding percentage five times—often besting league averages by 20-30 percentage points, in double plays six times, and in putouts three times.
The leadoff-hitting Groh was no slouch at the plate, either. As the Reds ramped up towards their eventual World Champion team in 1919, Groh made a strong case as the best leadoff hitter in the National League, typically flirting with a .400 on-base percentage during his prime, and adding a strong number of doubles (peaking at 39 in 1917). Despite weighing less than 160 pounds, Groh was famous for using a heavy "bottle bat", which had a thin handle and a very thick barrel, and was known for his masterful bunting skills. In 1919, his third straight season with OPS+ marks over 140, Groh led the league in OPS with a 310/392/431 line, and confidently led his team into the Series. Ironically, given the efforts by the Black Sox to lose and Groh’s place as the best hitter in the league, he struggled during the series, hitting just .172 with only two doubles in 29 at-bats.
Prior to the 1921 season, a long contract dispute ended with Groh accepting a less-than-desired salary, on the condition that he be traded immediately to the Giants. Commissioner Landis nixed the deal, saying Groh had to play out the ’21 season in Cincy, but after the year was over, he was finally traded for a couple of players and $150K in cash. Cumulatively, Groh’s nine seasons in Cincy were rather remarkable: a total OPS+ of 130, and only one season under 120.
The Top 15 Third Basemen in Reds history
1 Heinie Groh
2 Arlie Latham
3 Grady Hatton
4 Chris Sabo
5 Hans Lobert
6 Harry Steinfeldt
7 Bobby Adams
8 Billy Werber
9 Aaron Boone
10 Chuck Dressen
11 Charlie Irwin
12 Babe Pinelli
13 Lew Riggs
14 Edwin Encarnacion
15 Ray Knight
0 recs |
30 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
Yeah, I know I'm an asshole...
but I don’t think his fielding percentage was really 20-30 percentage points higher than the league average. I mean, unless the average third baseman was making an error on at least 20-30% of balls hit to him.
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
Good catch
Can I blame this on Slyde somehow?
by riverfront76 on Dec 9, 2009 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
This is way too high for a guy who does not place in the top 10 in any offensive categories. I know he was a victim of his era, but he was a pretty average offensive player. If not for his defense, he should be in the 30’s or 40’s on this list.
Edd Roush was a much better hitter during that time. I suppose we’ll be seeing him shortly.
by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat on Dec 9, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
FWIW
WAR has Groh as the 11th best player in Reds history. I think a 130 OPS+ as a Red makes him a formidable offensive player. Roush’s OPS+ was only 5 points higher as a Red.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
Sleazy P. Martini is my guess
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
look at those names on the top15
It’s the Kraut Korner
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
Fascinating RF...well done again.
There is an overriding misconception that Clutch is an overriding misconception.
Pete Rose didn't play enough 3rd base
to rate inclusion on that top 15 list?
Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!
IIRC, Rose played more games at 1B than any other position
"Everything you are doing is bad. I want you to know this."
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 9, 2009 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
Rose only played 174 G at 1B for the Reds
He played 644 in LF
He played 629 at 3B
He played 627 at 2B
He played 556 in RF
He played 73 in CF
Truly a man without a position.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
there ya go
he looks an awful lot like Todd Frazier to me :)
"Everything you are doing is bad. I want you to know this."
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 9, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, that's the direction the comparison should go
:P
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
Executive decision
I assigned each player to one position and one only for the purpose of those top 15 lists. Which makes sense for pretty much everyone except Rose.
It might be nice
to see a little asterisk-note as to where on the lists other than Pete’s designated position Pete would be ranked.
Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!
well, at this point, he'd be ranked first on each position
since we haven’t seen his name on the top 100 yet.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
Even though he's 7th or higher overall
He might have been ahead of some at one position and behind some at another, adjusting for either fielding ability or playing time.
Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!
I don't think any of these lists though are based strictly on that one position
like he said, he assigned each player to a single position and then put all of their value in that one bucket. With the way the Win Shares data that he is working with is set up, it’d be nearly impossible for him to get an accurate breakdown by a specific position for a player who played multiple spots.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
Ah
While I understand Win Shares are being used for the list, but I thought those smaller per-position lists were personal rankings, not strictly a re-statement of a subset of the overall list. (plus whoever’s top 15 for their position that didn’t make the overall top 100)
Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!
The question I want answered is....
Is he all bright and shiny? Because if he is, he should hide before I bite him.
"Santa Claus doesn't use Craigslist." -- 'tHan
by jch24 on Dec 9, 2009 1:41 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Roush used a 48 ounce bat
But christ on a hubcap look at the size of Heinie’s bat…
There is an overriding misconception that Clutch is an overriding misconception.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Red Reporter
Related FanShots on Red Reporter
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2010 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
