Winter Meetings Open Thread - Day 2
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 8, 2009 9:10 AM EST
in News
90 comments
The Reds haven't made much noise so far, as expected. Dusty Baker said yesterday that he thinks the team as it stands is the team that will go to Spring Training. They are reportedly talking to the Mets about Jose Reyes, they are looking for a utility player who can play SS, and they are still talking to Laynce Nix. Use this thread to talk about any and all goings on with the Reds.
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Got me on the Reyes thing.
Damnit. Almost as bad as getting rick rolled.
I write at:
Beyond the Boxscore | Red Reporter | Basement-Dwellers.com | Twitter: @jinazreds
Nice Reyes link
I also saw it hypothesized on Twitter that the Kevin Towers connection might mean the Reds are in pursuit of Adrian Gonzalez.
Definitely a good argument.
Now that's just silly,
Haven’t you realized the Reds only go after crappy players like Jamey Carroll?
If I hear the word 'perky' again, I'll puke
What should we do with SS?
Bubba Crosby anyone? He probably wants more money than I would give him. Tejada would be nice if we had money.
Janish wouldn’t be so damn bad if he didn’t have to hit #2 in the line-up!
by Dave from Louisville on Dec 8, 2009 10:03 AM EST reply actions
I know one person who likes your idea
even if it would mean a position change
Definitely a good argument.
LOL
I don’t think the Reds are ready for a left-handed shortstop. :-)
He no doubt means Bubba’s “brother,” Bobby. Even the pro sports journalists constantly mix them up. There’s even a baseball card with Bobby’s picture on it, but Bubba’s name.
The Red Sox are supposedly interested in Bobby. They can have him. I’d rather have Janish.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
agreed
Bobby’s not much of an offensive upgrade, if any, and his defense appears to be much worse.
Definitely a good argument.
I firmly believe, if given the chance, that Janish will post something like
.255/.330/.350.
I say give him the chance (now that JJ Hardy is off the market)
If I hear the word 'perky' again, I'll puke
I love you, but what is "given a chance"
‘Cause he ain’t shown that yet. In 300 AB’s he’s OPS’ing less than .600.
Still, I’ve accepted there’s nothing there will do with that spot, and he plays fine defense. So, as long as, CF and catcher are not black holes, then you can live with Janish
i always hated the "lefties cant play the infield" rule
who says? i was one hell of a SS, but my little league coaches wouldnt play me there. i was the best athlete on the team and they stuck me a 1B. i coulda been a pioneer!!
"Everything you are doing is bad. I want you to know this."
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 8, 2009 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
I played 3b for the 'Sensational Wild Berry All-Stars softball team, I think a lefty can play there
1. Your glove hand is right on the line -less extra base hits down the foul line
2. The throwing angle is great when cross in front of the SS on a hard bunt or dribbler
3. Balls that are hard hit give you plenty of time to turn your body for the throw to second on a DP
The only down side is ‘where to put you beer’ when you’re not drinking it.
There is an overriding misconception that Clutch is an overriding misconception.
by Madville on Dec 8, 2009 11:12 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I played 3b/1b for my little league team.
Then they found out I could throw a curveball, and I started pitching. Too bad I couldn’t throw hard; I might have liked being a closer.
"If it wasn't this, it'd be something else."
What kind of a redneck parent names one kid Bubba and one Bobby
Although I will say I was Bass Pro shop this weekend and a mom was yelling at her 3 year saying “Remington Sterling, GET BACK HERE!”
Seriously are major gun and knnife brands so cool that you want to name your kid after them? What’s next Bud Light and Jagermeister.
by Dave from Louisville on Dec 8, 2009 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
So,
that makes the fact that they are dating acceptable.
Wear something sexy to my funeral.
by Pops Daniels on Dec 8, 2009 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
they aren't really brothers
They came up at about the same time, and the media reported that they were brothers. They’re not. You’d think they’d have noticed, seeing as one is from Texas and one is from California.
Then again, the media also reported that Bubba was from New Jersey. Yeah, sure. Lotta kids named “Bubba” in Jersey.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
There's a movie called "The Parent Trap Part VIII" starring Bubba and Bobby
They meet at baseball camp one summer only to find out their mother and father are exes.
by Brian B on Dec 8, 2009 2:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
there should be a moratorium
On B. Crosbys in baseball. Besides Bubba and Bobby, there’s Blake and Bryan lurking in the minors.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Nice that the Reds are still pursuing Laynce Nix
There is an overriding misconception that Clutch is an overriding misconception.
You don't think they will be able to come to terms with Laynce?
Or do think Nix is not a good choice as a reserve for the 2010 team?
I mean (yawn) he plays all three OF positions well and is a LH bat with some pop off the bench.
There is an overriding misconception that Clutch is an overriding misconception.
I don't believe he is worth spending a single cent on
I am fine with Bruce, Stubbs, Gomes, Dickerson, and Balentien in the OF. They don’t need a 6th or 7th outfielder.
Definitely a good argument.
Daynce Mix Vol. 2
Now That’s What I Call Bench Filler!
by Brendanukkah on Dec 8, 2009 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
Nah, this is Bench filler
(according to Mads, of course)
Wear something sexy to my funeral.
by Pops Daniels on Dec 8, 2009 11:59 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think Fay is outsourcing his Winter Meetings coverage
Can you like with Paul Janish at shortstop?
Baker’s see Stubbs at the center fielder
I guess it could be an aesthetic choice to suit the subject matter. Dusty asserts that Willy “didn’t hit like he’s always hit” and that Dickerson could “get another shot.” I think Dickerson gets short shrift in this organization. I could see Dickerson getting shipped in favor of Heisey or even Nix.
I can’t understand why they would be trying to re-sign Nix, unless it’s to a minor league deal and they’re hedging against not signing Gomes. Even then, I’d just as soon see a stable of Heisey, Balentien, Dickerson, Stubbs and Bruce.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 8, 2009 12:10 PM EST reply actions
I'm not convinced
I think Dickerson gets short shrift in this organization.
I think the problem is more that you (we) see Dickerson differently that the Reds do.
We see him as a 4th OF/platoon (or insurance) CF. If that’s his role, he’s quite valuable; in fact, it may make him the most important OF on the team because he seems to play stellar defense and is a league-average hitter.
The disconnect is that I think they see him as an option in LF if Gomes doesn’t sign, and I don’t think they think he hits enough to be a major league LF (if that’s to be his role, I’d agree. This team has enough offensive holes as it is, and even if his SLG rebounds as much as Bill James thinks it will, I would want more offense out there.)
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
What distinction are you actually making here?
I don’t think they give him enough credit for his total value to the team, ergo, “short shrift.” I suspect he’s further down the totem pole than he should be, capable of being leap-frogged by Laynce Nix. He might be assigned a different role than we think he should, but that role also limits his perceived value and likelihood of sticking around, getting playing time, being effective etc. He’s not likely to get a chance at CF and while he might be right behind Gomes to occupy LF, they’ve got Heisey, Frazier (recently moved to LF) and potentially Nix primed to displace him. If they do, he likely will not get a chance to be used the way he should be, which is as a backup to all OF positions, candidate for CF and part-time LF-er according to his platoon splits.
Maybe I don’t know what shrift means, but I think he could very well get fucked over.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 8, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
The distinction is...
He’s not getting screwed because they don’t think he’s any good; he’s getting screwed because they’re trying to shove him into the wrong role, a role he’s ill-suited for.
It’s the difference between saying “We should bring in Adam Everett to play SS over Paul Janish” (which doesn’t recognize Janish’s true talent level and value to the team) and saying “Let’s make sure Janish can play 3B for when Rolen needs a break” (which doesn’t recognize what Janish’s talents are/aren’t).
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
nicely put
"Everything you are doing is bad. I want you to know this."
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 8, 2009 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
Ok
We’re not in disagreement. His access to playing time is less than it should be. And I wonder how they see him WRT Heisey.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 8, 2009 6:52 PM EST up reply actions
Apparently, you don't read much Fay
Without that incongruous writing, I’d assume it was someone else.
Gotta love teh Fay
Why?
My guess is the Reds would have to pay half of that or so to move Harang. I don’t think I’d do that. I think it would be wiser to hold on to Harang and hope he turns it around. That way, his value would increase. Harang’s 12-31 over the last two years, so his value has never been lower.
If I hear the word 'perky' again, I'll puke
he's exactly right
Harang is likely to be “better” next year in the traditional stats. That’s not the type of guy you want to shop, though you shouldn’t be unwilling to trade him. I would only trade him to a team that is willing to value him as a pitcher that is going to get “better”.
I would however be shopping Arroyo just to see if someone overvalues him for what he’s done in the wins department the last two years.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
Yeah, I understand that a lot of teams care about W-L record
the point to me is that he thinks the only reason not to trade him is because his value is low, not because he’s still one of the best pitchers on the team.
The team can’t really afford to trade any of their starters, but to me Harang shouldn’t be traded because he’s the most likely to really help the team this year (at least out of him, Arroyo, and Cordero.)
If I hear the word 'perky' again, I'll puke
Three way deal alert!
Yankees get Edwin Jackson and Curtis Grandeson. Dbacks get Ian Kennedy. Tigers get Max Scherzer, Daniel Schlereth, Austin Jackson, and Phil Coke.
Why did the DBacks do this deal?
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
Seriously?
That’s awful for the DBacks.
Calmer than you are.
by 3 Fast 3 Furious on Dec 8, 2009 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
that cant be the real deal
no way the DBacks get Ian Kennedy for Scherzer and Schlereth. both of those guys alone are worth more than Kennedy.
"Everything you are doing is bad. I want you to know this."
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 8, 2009 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
ah
the DBacks get Kennedy and E Jackson. the Yanks just get Granderson. i think the Tigers just whipped some ass.
"Everything you are doing is bad. I want you to know this."
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 8, 2009 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
ah, okay
I misread Heyman’s tweet. stupid 140 characters, but how would you read this?
yanks to get granderson, e. jackson, i. kennedy to dbacks, scherzer, schlereth, a. jax, coke to tigers.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
I said the same thing
"We, as for me all seasons you are affected peculiarly in the edge of my seat and are happy concerning the fact that the Adam Dunn fan has been mixed up exactly." - Reynard-san
by BK on Dec 8, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
That makes more sense.
Agreed in the Tigers’ winning that trade.
Calmer than you are.
by 3 Fast 3 Furious on Dec 8, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed,
Love it for the Tigers, like it for the DBacks, think it’s a dumb move for the Yanks
If I hear the word 'perky' again, I'll puke
Sure Granderson has some flaws
but now he’s playing with Jeter!
Calmer than you are.
by 3 Fast 3 Furious on Dec 8, 2009 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
i think the Yanks end up better than the DBags
they gave up Coke, Kennedy, and AJax for Granderson. Coke is a middle reliever, Kennedy could end up being that as well (though he’s more likely a back-of-the-rotation starter), and AJax probably has a Granderson-like ceiling. good on them.
"Everything you are doing is bad. I want you to know this."
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 8, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
really?
The Yankees got Granderson for Ian Kennedy, Phil Coke, and Austin Jackson? I think it’s a good deal for them. I think it’s a dumb deal for the Dbacks, still. I’d rather have Scherzer than either Jackson or Kennedy
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
Guess I'm not as high on Granderson as everyone else
He’ll be a 29 year old CF whose value, as measured by WAR and wOBA has been in decline since 2007.
His defensive ability in CF has fluctuated tremendously and doesn’t figure to improve from here out, and his SLG has fallen off a cliff. He’s still cost controlled so that’s good, but I think it was a lot for the Yanks to give up. (I’m still pretty high on Kennedy)
You’re right, though, on further inspection I don’t like it as much for the DBacks. On the other hand, I think Kennedy will benefit from the move to the NL and to that park, plus I still think he could be a #2-3 starter. Jackson seems to be improving, and will also benefit from a move to the NL. From my standpoint, the DBacks picked up two young, potential mid-rotation starters for a really good starter and a young, unproven reliever. Not so bad.
If I hear the word 'perky' again, I'll puke
Guess I'm in the big time minority here, though.
From fangraphs
A+ for the Yankees, who continue to show that they know what they’re doing. Not a bad deal for Detroit, who needed to save some cash. But man, I’m sorry for D’Backs fans, who just saw their team screw up.
If I hear the word 'perky' again, I'll puke
wow
“A+ for the Yankees”?? i wouldnt go that far. like you said, Granderson is on the wrong side of the age bell curve for his skill set. he’s good, but i’d be afraid his best days are behind him. still, the fact that the best player they gave up for him was Austin Jackson speaks volumes to their FO acumen.
i still like the Tigers end better.
"Everything you are doing is bad. I want you to know this."
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 8, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure Granderson's WAR really backs up what you're saying.
Other than the 2007 as a fluke year (where his WAR was 7.4, and top 10 in the league), Granderson’s WAR was 3.9 in 2006, 3.8 in 2008, and 3.4 in 2009. Of course, I think what’s happening there is an erratic fielding metric obscuring the (more convincing) decline in batting.
But this batting decline is coming almost entirely from splits. Granderson’s terrible against LHP (OPS .484 this season), and his declining wOBA matches with increasing numbers of at-bats against LHP. Everyone pretty much knows it now. It’s up to the Yankees to limit that damage. (On the other hand, there’s still a long way for the other team to take advantage: Curtis Granderson saw 199 PA against lefties last season; Nick Markakis (with nearly an identical number of TPA, saw 285 – and Nick Markakis is not nearly as abysmal against lefties as Curtis Granderson).
In addition to the fact that Granderson should also hit more HRs in Yankee Stadium over the short porch in right, I just don’t think the Yankees care too much about Granderson’s decline. If he’s got two half-way years in him, he’ll help the Yankees win, and after that, eat half the 10 million he’s owed in 2012 and convince a stupid team to buy in on a veteran presence with “strong defense” in centerfield. Hell, maybe it’ll be us.
IAN! I'm on traain!
I dunno...
Jackson has shown steady improvement in H/9 and BB/9 as a full-time starter while keeping HR/9 steady and K/9 somewhat steady. The down side is he just finished his first arb year (was he a super-2?)
Scherzer is only a year younger than Jackson, and other than a better K/9 (and resulting better K/BB) he isn’t as good as Jackson in any of the peripherals. On the other hand, he is under control for 2 additional years.
Kennedy is the same age as Scherzer, but missed almost all of ’09.
In my mind, the DBacks traded Scherzer for Jackson and Schlereth for Kennedy. Other than the extra money they’ll have to pay Jackson, I don’t think they did too poorly.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
i think that's what tips it
Jackson and Scherzer arent that far apart in terms of talent, but Scherzer is under control for much longer and doesnt have the erratic history Jackson has. of course, Scherzer some injury concerns of his own. but the service time is a big deal.
"Everything you are doing is bad. I want you to know this."
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 8, 2009 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
"Erratic"?
Jackson was much younger than Scherzer – remember that he made his debut at 19. Once he broke in as a regular in ‘07, he’s steadily improved. And again, he’s still only 26 next year.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
Agreed. Ganderson is some serious bit of awesome
and Scherzer could have been.
Is Ian Kennedy better than Max Scherzer?
Terrible deal for them. I think the Yankees and the Tigers both improve though.
"We, as for me all seasons you are affected peculiarly in the edge of my seat and are happy concerning the fact that the Adam Dunn fan has been mixed up exactly." - Reynard-san
by BK on Dec 8, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
no
Scherzer > Cueto > Kennedy. i dont like Edwin Jackson too much either. i think the DBacks got the worst end of the deal. the Tigers made off like bandits though. bravo.
"Everything you are doing is bad. I want you to know this."
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 8, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed.
Giving up Scherzer for Kennedy is terrible, and this is the Edwin Jackson that put up an ERA around 6 a few years ago as a Devil Ray. I just don’t see how this makes their team better. And the Yankees got their guy relatively cheaply and the Tigers got a few pretty good pieces for the future.
"We, as for me all seasons you are affected peculiarly in the edge of my seat and are happy concerning the fact that the Adam Dunn fan has been mixed up exactly." - Reynard-san
by BK on Dec 8, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
Methinks dback are scares to death that Scherzer will get hurt and lose 10mph off that fastball.
by Brian B on Dec 8, 2009 2:13 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
i hope so
because they better have a good reason.
"Everything you are doing is bad. I want you to know this."
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 8, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
there were rumors of this yesterday
I don’t mind seeing the back of Melky Cabrera (and no, I don’t mean when he’s chasing after a ball hit over his head like a cat chasing a ball of string.
I’m sad to see Ian Kennedy go, though, and bummed at losing Ajax.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Peter Gammons says Melky stays in center
Grandy plays left. Though, it is Peter Gammons.
"If it wasn't this, it'd be something else."
Gammons also says he is leaving ESPN.
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
I just saw that. Wow.
Granted, I like Buster Olney a whole lot better, but Peter is an icon.
"If it wasn't this, it'd be something else."
and going to the MLB Network
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/story/12634072/gammons-to-leave-espn-will-join-mlb-network
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
I think
that might be leverage against Damon.
If Melky stays in center, they gave up a lot and didn’t really improve.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
yeah moving Granderson to LF because you have Melky Cabrera
is like, dumb.
"Everything you are doing is bad. I want you to know this."
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 8, 2009 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
Once again my Danica is better than yours!
http://sports.yahoo.com/video/player/nascar/NASCAR_News/17032517;ylt=Ao2TVKKZriaNOAhm0Labd1h9It4
Yours
Mine
Beautiful intelligent women are all the rage!
There is an overriding misconception that Clutch is an overriding misconception.
More NASCAR shit
http://sports.yahoo.com/video/player/nascar/Sprint_Cup_Highlights/17047401
There is an overriding misconception that Clutch is an overriding misconception.
isn't "Nacsar shit" redundant?
Wear something sexy to my funeral.
by Pops Daniels on Dec 9, 2009 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
Consider the Source (Leatherpants) , but
maybe Bob sold extra Bananas this month?
Reds pursuing Tejada and Cabrera for SS but price has to come down and it will
http://twitter.com/JimBowdenIV/status/6474718261
Find me on Twitter- http://www.twitter.com/mixfmkyle
Is Bowden sick?
Why does he need an IV?
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
by sidnancy on Dec 8, 2009 4:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
2 year deal for either would be acceptable
Cabera 2 year 6 mil
Tejada 2 year 10 mil
Both could be back loaded. Both would do well in the NL Central. I think Carbera or Tejada >>>> Gomes
by Dave from Louisville on Dec 8, 2009 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
who else would be in on these guys?
by Dave from Louisville on Dec 8, 2009 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
atheletics
blue jays got a gonz
red sox got scuturo
twins have hardy
Astros? Who else needs a SS?
by Dave from Louisville on Dec 8, 2009 6:25 PM EST up reply actions
neither of those contracts are realistic
Cabrera is looking for Jack Wilson money (2yr/10M), Tejada likely much more than that. If you are going to get way under their asking price, it will likely be in a one year deal, and only if they are desperate.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
Cabrera is an old man
And he isn’t isn’t half the SS of Wilson. I bet he ends up in Oakland and Tejada ends up playing 3b somewhere.
by Dave from Louisville on Dec 8, 2009 9:00 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Couple of things from Fay
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
Comeback?
From What.
There is an overriding misconception that Clutch is an overriding misconception.
retirement after a mediore career?
asshat
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
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