Less Than Zero for the Zeroes - Worst Reds of the Decade
by ken on Dec 31, 2009 12:00 PM EST
in All Decade Team
39 comments
With all of the attention recently focused on the all-time great Reds and best Reds of the decade, I'm feeling a little disconnected from reality after rooting for a team that hasn't had a winning season since 2000. So what brought us down this decade? Or more specifically, who? Below is my highly subjective list. My cutoff was 300 PAs or 200 IP (higher threshold for pitching due to the variability). I looked only at performance and tried to divorce the player's salary or expectations from the list. So who do you think was the biggest stinker for the decade?
- Jose Acevado. 304.3 IP, 222/97/58 K/BB/HR, 5.59 ERA, 5.86 RA, 5.17 FIP. Like Jose Rijo, Acevado is related to Juan Marichal. Like Eric Milton, Acevado gave up a historic number of homeruns. One of those facts is more relevant than the other.
- Juan Castro. .237/.276/.353/.628, 61 OPS+, .269 wOBA, -4.6 WAR. Easily the WAR "leader" here, I can't get too worked up about Manos given that he accumulated it over several years and rarely played as a regular. Plus, TotalZone is particularly harsh on Castro. FanGraphs has him at about a zero WAR for his Reds tenure. Negative rating or no, the Fiastro defines the Narron legacy as well as any single event in my mind.
- Ryan Dempster. 204.3 IP, 150/108/40 K/BB/HR, 6.39 ERA, 6.61 RA, 5.27 FIP. Maybe the most infuriating player on the list. Dempster had two decent years with Florida before coming to the Reds in a trade for Juan Encarnacion and others in July 2002. After 1.5 years of injurious suckitude, Chicago took a free agent flier on Dempster, patiently waited for him to rehab, and then enjoyed about 12 WAR since.
- Brandon Larson. 332 PA, 570 OPS, 49 OPS+, .258 wOBA, -1.4 WAR. Why it's important to look at a prospect's age as well as his performance.
- Eric Milton. 370.3 IP, 231/103/73 K/BB/HR, 5.83 ERA, 6.23 RA, 5.34 FIP. Signing a flyball pitcher coming off a flukishly good 14-6 season was not a good idea. Paying him so much that you made the Yankees flinch made it an awful idea. Milton's K/BB ratio was actually tolerable, but by his nature he allowed a lot of HRs and balls in play. It didn't help that two statues were playing in the outfield.
- Corey Patterson. 392 PA, .205/.238/.344/.582, 50 OPS+, .238 wOBA, -1.0 WAR. I was originally going to make my cutoff 400 PAs but lowered it to include Two-Pitch AtBaterson. Talking about the worst Reds of the decade without him would be like talking about the worst U2 albums and not mentioning Zooropa. It might not be the worst, but it has to be in the discussion. Anyways, it's pretty rare to have that low of an OBP. Including Patterson only five players have had an OBP lower than .250 in as much playing time. Two of the other four turned the trick before joining the Reds.
- Willy Taveras. 437 PA, .240/.275/.285/.559, 48 OPS+, .247 wOBA, +0.4 WAR. Offensively it's about a wash between Wee Willy and Corey. Taveras had a better OBP and SB numbers (25/6 versus 14/9), but Patterson had much more slugging. TotalZone likes Taveras' fielding much more than RZR (14.1 RZR/150 games), though both WARs give Taveras an advantage (per Fangraphs: -0.3 for Taveras, -1.2 for Patterson).
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Milton in a landslide
I didn’t even read the snippets, just went straight to the vote.
"Santa Claus doesn't use Craigslist." -- 'tHan
but he had a 5.34 FIP
surely he had some positive characteristics.
"I expected much better than that".....tHan
Your loss on the snippets, buddy
I also went with Milton based on the innings. On a rate basis he was a little better than Dempster, actually.
Oh I read them after the fact, job well done sir
I just knew who I would be voting for as soon as I saw the headline.
"Santa Claus doesn't use Craigslist." -- 'tHan
big money ... big failure .... milton wins
"Some times you get lucky; some times you get Willy Taveras." - Teh Fay
I like how Petey's "Could Willy Taveras really steal 100 bases?"
bit makes it into “related comments”
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
I love that Madville said, "He’ll be lucky to get 100 hits."
He was right. Willy finished the season with 97 hits.
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For me it came down to
Larson, Patterson, and Taveras.
Larson got the vote because we heard for several years that he was the man. Turns out he wasn’t the man.
Larson was definitely a disappointment
I looked him up in writing this and saw he’s been playing in the independent leagues for the past several years (at least, as of 2008). I do respect his sticktoitiveness.
Dempster = Turd
sucks that we gave up juan encarnacion for dempster and he ends up tearing it up for st. louis in 06 winning a world series then we get rid of dempster and he has recently being tearing it up for the cubs….typical reds situation
wasn't really Dempster's fault
the man was pitching with a torn up elbow.
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
by justin007000 on Dec 31, 2009 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
I voted Milton
Taveras, and Patersno may have been worse, but Milton made more money, making him more of an issue for his team.
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
Exactly my reasoning.
I wanted to vote Taveras, was nearly compelled to, but I decided to honestly participate. Not sure why.
Wear something sexy to my funeral.
by Pops Daniels on Dec 31, 2009 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
Milton, although DanO and Lindner
get a double assist for that one. Dempster gets a pass from me because of the injury. I wanted the Reds to stick with him. Acevedo is one of those guts I thought could be a useful back of the rotation guy. Swing and a miss there, Turtle.
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Dec 31, 2009 2:15 PM EST via mobile reply actions
my 2¢
After being a lifelong fan, I only started following the Reds in earnest two years ago. And this year, i finally started watching the games (thanks, internet!) Willy gets my vote, he’s the only atrocity listed I was a witness to. And he’s the only one who still has the opportunity to stink it up in the new decade.
I voted Willy because Milton was a desperation move by DanO/Carl
Willy was a classic case of making the same mistake twice, but worse. I don’t think he was the worst player of the decade (cough Castro cough), but Taveras was the worst symbolically.
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I voted Wily
Christ on a soft tossing LH pitcher from Peru…. after CoPat only the mos stubborn, moronic and unimaginative management brain trust could sign a guy like Taveris.
Milton was a close 2nd and CoPat a closer 3rd.
Incompetents invariably make trouble for people other than themselves.
Larry Mcmurtry
How can CoPat be "closer" to Taveras than Milton if he's 3rd?
by Brian B on Dec 31, 2009 4:11 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Please don't throw peanuts at the elephant
"Santa Claus doesn't use Craigslist." -- 'tHan
by jch24 on Dec 31, 2009 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Hall of famers, both
That is a lot of combined votes for Patty and Taveras.
If they were hitting 8th in the lineup, I could abide this. No, if they were pitchers, I could abide this.
Don't try to win every game, just the last one.
Ahem
Taveris was really bad and Milton was close to being as bad, CoPat was also terrible, so bad that he was close to being almost as bad as Milton. 3rd place however mostly goes to Corey because he was "Deep versed in books and shallow in himself. ".
Incompetents invariably make trouble for people other than themselves.
Larry Mcmurtry
Taveres.
Yeah, I remember them. Did “More Than a Woman” on the Saturday Night Fever soundtrack.
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Dec 31, 2009 5:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Castro
I don’t care how much money Milton made. At least he was a successful pitcher at one time. Castro was a failure of philosophy, a clear example of how Reds management doesn’t understand what a good ballplayer looks like. And before you say Taveras or Patterson represent the same thing, just remember that the Reds signed Castro TWICE.
by Brian B on Dec 31, 2009 4:10 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Speaking of bad deals,
the Cubs signed Marlon Byrd to a three-year, $15 million backloaded contract today.
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Dec 31, 2009 5:31 PM EST via mobile reply actions
you down with OBP?
the Cubs sure aren’t.
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
Or good CF defense, apparently
Surely the Cubs win for worst offseason so far
If I hear the word 'perky' again, I'll puke
by nycredsfan on Dec 31, 2009 8:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
i can't believe how truely awful Jim Hendrey is
he has to the most unsung bad gm in baseball. Put him in a small market and he would be thought to be a disastor.
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
by justin007000 on Dec 31, 2009 9:26 PM EST up reply actions
never have so many paid so much for so little.
Milton.
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
Aw, Man
This should have been done similar to the ‘best of’— look, what the Reds did well was draft, develop and go out and get bad players, a full roster and the attendant comments of the worst Reds of the decade would have been a very funny and entertaining project! Just a catch all worst Red is a letdown, this could be very therapeutic for us all.
This is a link to a ‘what if’ World Series between the 62 Mets and 03 Tigers— could the Reds have put together a team to compete?
Milton
I also wonder if the Reds didn’t suggest to Milton that he might be feeling tingling in his ring and pinkie finger, maybe had people mention in his earshot how people come back from Tommy John surgery stronger, etc., then in a few days, asked him again ‘are you sure there’s no numbness…?’ Repeat until he finally felt numbness and they could get him off the field and collect the insurance on his contract.
Milton The Monster
Milton hurt us every way possible and over a substantial period of time. Factoring in his stats with the huge long term financial divot, Milton may have had the most detrimental effect to the Reds by a pitcher…EVER !
Could I vote for the owners of MLB?
Cause their crappy no-salary-cap rules might have even been worse than Eric Milton. But it’s close.
by occams_tiger_teeth on Jan 2, 2010 3:22 PM EST reply actions
not really fair
I’m sure they’d love a salary cap. It’s the players’ union that hates it.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
Eric Milton was top notch!
So said Hitler’s assistant.
Needless to say, this didn't work and everybody died.
by SullivanSmith on Jan 3, 2010 12:37 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
I voted Corey
because Milton was just the wrong guy in the wrong place at the wrong time. If he’d been playing in the old Nats stadium a lot of those GABP HRs would have been fly balls. Bringing in a fly ball pitcher to GABP was never going to work, so it’s more a GM issue.
Corey would have been awful anywhere so he gets my vote
Hi, hello, and welcome
So did I. Milton sucked, but he had spurts of non-suckitude. As did Willy, at the beginning of the year. Corey was unprecedentedly bad for all except for one week.
"We, as for me all seasons you are affected peculiarly in the edge of my seat and are happy concerning the fact that the Adam Dunn fan has been mixed up exactly." - Reynard-san
by BK on Jan 4, 2010 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
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