Wrapping up the top 100
Now that our countdown is over, I thought it might be appropriate to post some wrap-up thoughts and conclusions.
First, I suppose that you may be wondering about current Reds and where they might stack up against this list. As you might have noted, only one active player made the list, and barely so at that (Brandon Phillips, #98). There are three other players on the current roster that are somewhere in the top 250 or so...
Aaron Harang sits at #134, hampered by injury and ineffectiveness over the last couple seasons. If in 2010 Harang can reprise what he did in 2006-07, he would be a candidate to scrape into the top 100.
Bronson Arroyo ranks as the 149th greatest Red after his four seasons. While his 2006 was very good, he has settled into a consistent level a couple tiers below that ever since. If he continues on at that level, he is still a couple years away from breaking into the top 100, meaning it's unlikely he'll remain a Red long enough to do so.
Sitting just behind Arroyo, at #151, is Joey Votto --really on the basis of just two seasons played. The quality of Votto's seasons is high-if he can reproduce the value of his 2009, he'll sit somewhere in the #75 neighborhood a year from now.
Coincidentally, recently traded third baseman Edwin Encarnacion ranks between Arroyo and Votto at #150. He's unlikely to improve on that standing. The other 2009 trade-away with any significant tenure was David Weathers, who stands as the 230th greatest Red (if you guessed that he ranks just behind Ron Robinson, you're right!)
More minutia and analysis after the jump...
One of the things that emerged during this project was that for many of us, some of the old-time players were not only unfamiliar to our collective consciousness, but also had some really bizarre names. In that vein, I present to you five more entries for the all-time name team:
- 1) Mysterious Walker, pitched briefly for the Reds in 1910
- 2) Twink Twining, another pitcher of little regard during the 1916 season
- 3) Pinky Pittenger, a middle infielder who played from 1927-29
- 4) Pee Wee Wanninger, a 1927 shortstop
- 5) Frenchy Bordagaray, also from 1939, played a bit of left field
A couple of those guys, were they to be acquired today, might just cause Red Reporter's whole head to explode.
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For the next segment, I took the top 100 group, and did some sorting and digging, to see if anything interesting popped up...
First, let's look at the breakdown of the top 100 players, sorted by primary position:
Starting pitcher; 26
Relief pitcher, 3
Catcher, 8
First Baseman, 11
Second Baseman, 8
Third Baseman, 10
Shortstop, 7
Left Field, 6
Center Field, 10
Right Field, 11
That doesn't seem like it tells us much of anything. Let's move on.
What if were to track a count of top-100 guys, and how many of them were represented in each calendar year they played for the Reds? On the one hand, there's a bit of a problem presented by assuming all top-100 players are equally valuable, or that player #100 is significant while #101 is not, but let's see what happens:
That's something, I guess. 13 top-100 guys on that 1973 roster. The data looks a bit choppy, though. What if we use 5-year rolling averages:
The year listed is the middle of the 5 year data set, and again we see a peak in the mid-70s which makes sense, but I think we can get a little bit more refined.
This next graph shows rolling averages of the percentage of the team's total win shares accounted for by top-100 players (for example, if a 80 win team was good for 240 win shares, and that team had 3 players that ended up on the top-100 list, each player with 20 win shares, that season would get a .25 score on the following chart):
This provides an interesting comparison to how successful the team has been over the years:
Bullet point observations:
- Originally, I was surprised at how closely these two graphs tracked with each other, since I assumed that the bad teams of history might have one or two good players who ate up a higher percentage of a team's value. After further consideration, however, it's been made clear that a team can't win on the basis of one or two good players. Remember that Aaron Boone and Danny Graves are tail-end top-100 guys. A winning team would need them, plus 4 or 5 or 6 players who were even better.
- The graph doesn't seem to track at all prior to 1900. I think this is probably due to the smaller rosters and completely different usage patterns as compared to the modern game.
- The Reds had an underappreciated period during the 1920's, with 3 2nd place finishes between 1922-26.
- The ramp-up to the Big Red Machine was steady and determined: starting in the mid-1950's, the team had very few bad seasons. They were good, won a pennant, went back to being good again, then elevated to be a special team in the mid-70's. The sharp drop-off in the early 80's must have been particularly jarring to long-time fans at the time.
- The Reds have had their droughts before: seven straight losing seasons from 1910-16 (average winning percentage of .442), nine straight from 1929-37 (.399), eleven straight from 1945-55 (.442), and now nine straight (and counting!) from 2001-09 (.457). If you discount the post WWII stretch due to, er...World War 2 and its effects, then this current era is arguably the 2nd worst in franchise history.
- Originally, in this space, I had written what were some high-level conclusions drawn from the graphs above, the state of the current team, and what it meant going forward. The tone of it was more pessimistic than I wanted, and it was missing one of the "lessons" of this project, namely that some of the best players on the best teams come out of nowhere (see: Bucky Walters and George Foster). So, I'm not making any predictions. We know the team hasn't been good, we think there's a few promising youngsters (with one potential carry-the-team-on-his-back guy), and we hope for a couple out-of-the-woodwork surprises. We'll do the same this time next year.
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Finally, a few words about the Big Red Machine, another topic where I'm simply adding to the millions of words already spilled. My perspective, however, coming out of this top 100 exercise, is just how unlikely it all was. I can't imagine too many other franchises drawing from well over a century's worth of teams, and ending up with six of the top 12 who happened to be teammates for a minimum of five straight years, with several of the combinations lasting much longer than that (Davey and Johnny were teammates for 14 straight seasons, Pete and Tony for 13 straight). Part of that is a by-product of itself; the players were good, therefore the team was really good, therefore the players were kept around for a long time, therefore they rank pretty high on the list. The only parallel I could think of was maybe the Orioles who: a) were also really good in the 70's; b) also do not have an otherwise exceptional history; and c) employed Frank Robinson.
The success of the Big Red Machine wasn't altogether exceptional; there have been other teams with great stretches, some even greater. The BRM tends to be highlighted, in my opinion, because they were so lopsided in favor of the offense, which was a great one. Easier to get excited about, perhaps. At any rate, the Big Red Machine era seems so extraordinary, partly because it stands out so singularly in the franchise's history. Since 1900, the Reds have had 12 seasons with a winning percentage above .600. Half of those came between 1970 and 1976. Otherwise, as a rule, the historical record is scattered with onesies and twosies. Free agency, varying levels of parity, and the sheer fact that dynasties are rare are all factors in this; nonetheless, the Reds have spawned exactly one dynasty (or even mini-dynasty) in its history.
The funny thing about the Big Red Machine is that they still feel like a relatively recent phenomenon, despite the passage of 40 years time since Sparky was hired. Maybe part of that is due to the direct link from that era that continues to call the games over the airwaves. Or maybe that the heroes from those days are still with us, many of them still connected to the game. Or maybe that the Reds, for the better part of a decade, set an impossible standard that will loom large over whatever accomplishments the present and future Reds teams are able to achieve.
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To officially close this project, I would like to say thank you to:
- Baseballreference.com, for being awesome
- Dave Studeman, for producing a Win Shares database
- Wikipedia, for being a go-to resource on basic biographical details
- Red Reporter, for being the best Reds-related blog in the intertubes
Fin.
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50 comments
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Comments
Worst 100 Reds?
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 21, 2009 12:23 PM EST up reply actions

"We, as for me all seasons you are affected peculiarly in the edge of my seat and are happy concerning the fact that the Adam Dunn fan has been mixed up exactly." - Reynard-san
I didn't see you at Redsfest this year!
But I bought a jersey of yours anyway! Thanks!
"We, as for me all seasons you are affected peculiarly in the edge of my seat and are happy concerning the fact that the Adam Dunn fan has been mixed up exactly." - Reynard-san
by BK on Dec 22, 2009 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
Well done on the whole project.
It was very much enjoyable and well written.
One quick note on the graphs though, which I don’t think you mentioned. The last few years have potential bias as it is possible for players who are currently on the roster to become part of the list. For example, the last year of the data has a value of 1, I believe, while in time players such as Votto, Volquez, Cueto, Bruce, etc may enter into it, giving the year a higher value in the future than it has right now.
Gotta fight off that pessimism somehow, eh?
"Some times you get lucky; some times you get Willy Taveras." --Fay
Great point
In the omitted section of what the current team makeup is and how that might predict the future, I talked about the endpoint bias, and which of the current players will be on the top 100 list 20 years from now. The problem was that to get to the 6-8 players necessary to be a contender, you’d pretty much have to assume a pretty high success rate for the youngsters and top prospects you allude to. It’s possible, but it seems unlikely.
by riverfront76 on Dec 21, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
a great big thank you
I know how much I have enjoyed this project. Thank you for all of the effort you put into this.
Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
Well done
… and well written, which matters a lot to me.
I do want to insert some of my own observations, one being that the BRM is one of several especially powerful franchises of its time. Lest we ignore the Athletics and the Fam-Uh-Lee in Pittsburgh. In the 70s and 80s, despite the Reds domination, so many many many fans were able to experience some post-season hoopla, even Milwaukee!
Those days are sadly behind us.
All the regrets aside, I don’t miss the Astroturf or the mondo stadiums, so we at least got past that point.
This current Reds team will probably never excel, either on the field or in the hearts of the fans. Dating back in history, that’s probably more the norm for this franchise than we are willing to acknowledge.
ladies and gentlemen, riverfront76!

"Everything you are doing is bad. I want you to know this."
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 21, 2009 1:14 PM EST reply actions
Thanks
You guys look a whole lot more respectable than I imagined. Except for that one guy on the right in the goatee and sunglasses hanging around his neck. That’s madville, right?
by riverfront76 on Dec 21, 2009 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
No, jch24.
Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans
by Farneyismycopilot on Dec 21, 2009 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
wrong
jch24 is not pictured. he was in the bathroom at the time, smoking 2 cigarettes at once and drawing penises on the stall walls.
"Everything you are doing is bad. I want you to know this."
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 21, 2009 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
And...
I was gonna show up but contracted pink eye just before the event.
Wear something sexy to my funeral.
by Pops Daniels on Dec 21, 2009 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
No, that's why I was gone...
Marxist society meeting.
People Don't Kill People. Burning Couches Kill People.
what are Those People doing with bugs?
My God, we’re all going to die
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
by Cy Schourek on Dec 22, 2009 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
I'm on a five year plan of love.
Wear something sexy to my funeral.
by Pops Daniels on Dec 21, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
I'm the pretty lady in the front.
Give me a lineup of 9 Ryan Freels, and I'll show you a team that can't pitch.
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 21, 2009 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
Nope, that was Ash
Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans
by Farneyismycopilot on Dec 21, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
Also, riverfront, just curious as to what primary position you slapped Pete into.
I apologize for asking this if you touched on it in the Pete write-up but I can’t remember.
Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans
by Farneyismycopilot on Dec 21, 2009 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks.
Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans
by Farneyismycopilot on Dec 21, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
Ummm - if you look closely you'll see my forehead and a partial ear-slip of my left ear...
I refuse to stand for almost anything…except to get the beer guy’s attention.
Chris was a guy that ... was heavily misunderstood.. the only guys that knew Chris and knew how good of a heart he had, how kind he was, how gentle he was, how soft of a heart he had, were the guys in our locker room, the guys who were close to him, his family." — Bengals quarterback Carson Palmer
I left off another
due to how quick you guys are to throw around the “racist” tag. research is left to the reader.
by riverfront76 on Dec 21, 2009 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
Urban Shocker?
Wear something sexy to my funeral.
by Pops Daniels on Dec 21, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
Is it one of these
Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans
by Farneyismycopilot on Dec 21, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
There are some great names!
Reds used to have a catcher called Admiral Schlei. Other amusing names: Buck Hooker, Peaches O’Neill, Rip Vowinkel, Snake Deal, Cotton Minahan, Bunny Pearce, Rebel Oakes, Rabbit Robinson, Slow Joe Doyle
They had so many better nicknames than our first initial-first syllable of last name thing we do these days.
Was it Dick Coon....
I bet you held back on Loquacious Johnson…right?
Chris was a guy that ... was heavily misunderstood.. the only guys that knew Chris and knew how good of a heart he had, how kind he was, how gentle he was, how soft of a heart he had, were the guys in our locker room, the guys who were close to him, his family." — Bengals quarterback Carson Palmer
this was my favorite name of all
probably my rap name if me and my friend’s planned duo of Lord Coke and The Moorcock doesn’t get off the ground.
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
by Cy Schourek on Dec 22, 2009 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
I was in a band once called "The All-Star Deejays"
and our sole aim was to get gigs opening for DJs at clubs and offering up such a horrific performance of drum machine induced wavecrashing kitch-pop and A cappella George Jones tunes that it would actually induce stomach pain. It was much more offensive than this description can illustrate and we managed to be asked to stop playing and leave three different times. My rap name was MC Karaoke, and my friends were DJ Casionova and MC Charlie Feathers. It was a blast.
Wear something sexy to my funeral.
by Pops Daniels on Dec 22, 2009 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
My Rap Name is Runs With Beer
no wait that’s my Indian name…
Incompetents invariably make trouble for people other than themselves.
Larry Mcmurtry
Hick Carpenter....
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/carpehi01.shtml
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
Or this guy
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/peitzhe01.shtml
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
Boobs
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/fowlebo01.shtml
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
Tremendously well done and enjoyable.
And for what it’s worth, Florida signed Danny Richar to a minor league deal today.
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Dec 21, 2009 2:19 PM EST reply actions
Good for Danny.
I’d hate for him to have to serve “tall pints” of Pabst at Barleycorn’s.
Give me a lineup of 9 Ryan Freels, and I'll show you a team that can't pitch.
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 21, 2009 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks for doing this
The man who will one day be President is, at this moment, lying in his cradle, trying to find some strategic way to get his big toe in his mouth.
-Mark Twain
some comments about the top 100
This was a fabulous job, well-researched, thought out, and written. As a diehard Reds fan since the late 50’s, I feel compelled to add some things anyway. Here goes.
Bob Purkey was more than an innings eater from 1958 to 1962: he was an 3-time all star (1958, 1961, 1962). Also he wasn’t really a knuckleballer. I remember his slider best. According to the Neyer/James guide to pitchers, his pitches were:
1. slider 2. knuckleball 3. fastball 4. sinker
Ken Griffey Jr.‘s remarkable 2005 comeback season was not mentioned. It was, in terms of batting avg., slugging pct., and ops, his best season with the Reds: .301/.369/.576 with 35 HRs in 128 games. This was after the surgery that had stapled his hamstring to the bone. He didn’t hit a HR until April 30, and missed the rest of the season after turning his ankle on Labor Day weekend. In between, he was the Junior of the Seattle years. He didn’t just win Comeback Player of the Year: his fellow players voted him to the Sporting News first team NL All Star team.
Your statement that Ken Griffey Sr. “really only averaged 116 games played per year in his first stint with the Reds” gives the impression he was injured a lot or a platoon player at times, neither is true. He only played 25 games as a callup in 1973, and 88 games in his rookie year in 1974. Then there was the 1981 strike season. The only year he went down with a serious injury was in 1979, when he was missed in the postseason.
Griffey Sr. was clutch in the postseason, despite the .240 BA. He was very clutch when most needed in the 1975 WS against the Red Sox: games 2 and 7. He had good series and was clutch in the ’75 and ’76 sweeps of the Pirates and Phils. His avg. is low because of his 1 for 18 in the ’76 Series against the Yankees, but in the only close game of that series (game 2), he scored the winning run in the 9th inning after getting on base on a slow roller to SS that he beat out and oddly was ruled an error.
As one of the greatest all around players of all time, Frank Robinson was not done justice. His great (and feared) baserunning for example was deserving of mention.
Michael G. Burke
Publish a book
Riverfront, I think you should seriously look into getting this little project published
"I never should have given up the animation rights."
Mads can spice up your extraordinary research
It’s GOLD, Jerry!
"Whether you like it or not, history is on our side. We will bury you!"
by "Red" Moskau on Dec 22, 2009 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
I am very busy, however...for RF76 _ I could rreshuffle a few things..
Lets do lunch…
Incompetents invariably make trouble for people other than themselves.
Larry Mcmurtry

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