The Greatest Reds: #16 - #15
16. Ted Kluszewski
| Played as Red | Primary Position | Career Rank | Peak Rank | Prime Rank |
| 1947-1957 | 1B | 16 | 14 | 14 |
| Percent Breakdown of Value | Best Season | Best player on Reds | ||
| Hit | Field | Pitch | 1954 | 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955 |
| 90% | 10% | 0% | ||
| Awards/Honors as a Red | Leading the League | On the Reds Leaderboard | ||
| All Star – 1953, 1954, 1955, 1956 | Runs Batted In – 1954 Home Runs – 1954 At Bat / Home Run Ratio – 1954 Hits – 1955 Intentional Walks – 1955 Plate Appearances – 1955 |
-5th in career slugging percentage |
||
During the Second World War, the Reds held their spring training operations at Indiana University, where team scouts happened upon a two-sport standout student-athlete belting home runs that went considerably farther than any of those hit by the team’s paid professionals. A few years later, the student continued his power-hitting ways as the Reds starting first baseman, a post he would hold for the better part of a decade. Despite the obvious power, Kluszewski was not a great hitter in the early part of his career. From his debut in 1947 through the end of the 1951 season, Klu hit just 58 home runs while hitting .286, good for a 101 OPS+ over the period. He was, however, about to enter his prime, and from 1952 through 1956, Big Klu was one of the most complete power hitters in the game. In 1952, his ability to reach base safely, via hit or walk, broke through to a new level (posting new personal highs of .320 and .383), and while the home runs weren’t quite at a "great" level, he rather curiously hit 11 triples to go along with his 24 doubles and 16 dingers. He struck out 28 times that year, marking the last time as a Red that Klu would strike out more times than he left the yard. 1953-55 represented three straight seasons of at least 40 home runs, and no more than 40 whiffs (no hitter has done this even one time since). Overall, from 1952-56, Klu hit .316 with 187 home runs, 295 walks, and 168 strikeouts (with a 148 OPS+). In his zenith year of 1954, the baseball card stats were eye-popping: .326, 49 HR, 141 RBI, and he finished 2nd in MVP voting to a deserving Willie Mays. In addition to the power and bat control combination, Klu was noted for his inability to stay healthy: he really only played four full seasons out of his 15-year career. After the end of his remarkable 5-year string from ’52-’56, things quickly fell apart, and he never again hit .300, and topped 10 home runs only once (with 15 in his final season of 1961 with the Angels).
15. Frank Dwyer
| Played as Red | Primary Position | Career Rank | Peak Rank | Prime Rank |
| 1892-1899 | SP | 17 | 16 | 11 |
| Percent Breakdown of Value | Best Season | Best player on Reds | ||
| Hit | Field | Pitch | 1896 | 1893, 1894, 1895, 1896 |
| 3% | 0% | 97% | ||
| Awards/Honors as a Red | Leading the League | On the Reds Leaderboard | ||
| N/A | N/A |
-6th in career complete games |
||
In the early era of the sport, pitchers were seen as rather fungible assets, quick to break down and easily replaced. Such it was with Frank Dwyer, who was released by St. Louis in June, 1892, and subsequently picked up by Cincinnati. It was already his sixth team in just the fifth season of his career, but it would be his last: Dwyer cemented his place with the franchise by responding to his release with a vengeance, winning 19 games over the remainder of the ’92 season while posting a 2.33 ERA (140 ERA+). Year after year, for the next six, Dwyer was a consistent pitching machine, winning at least 16 games every year, throwing at least 240 innings in each, and posting an above average ERA every time. Statistically, the era was even less similar to today’s game than you think: Dwyer once finished 9th in the league’s strikeout-to-walk ratio standings, despite allowing more walks than he had strikeouts. He also put up a 109 ERA+ one year with an ERA over 5.00. What Dwyer excelled at, relative to his peers, was limiting free baserunners via the walk: every single season with the Reds in which Dwyer pitched in enough games to qualify (1892-98), he finished no worse than 7th in walks per inning, and twice finished as high as 2nd. In his best season of 1896, Dwyer led a very strong Reds team (77-50, 3rd place in the NL) with a 24-11 record, a 3.15 ERA (147 ERA+), and 288.2 innings. Over the course of his time with Cincinnati, his cumulatve record was 132-101 and his ERA+ was 121 over 1,983 innings.
0 recs |
69 comments
|
Comments
Seeing names like
Eric Davis and the Big Klu knocked off this “early” in the countdown is making me realize just how great the Big Red Machine was in franchise history. Fourteen more spots, and I think the remaining starters for that team are a lock to own half of them.
Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!
I think you're right
with the exception of Ken Griffey, Sr. That’s 7 of the top 14 on one single team, which is staggering. By my estimation, the other 7 should be 4 pitchers and 3 non-BMR players. We’ll see if I’m right.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 2, 2009 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
that is, 4 non BRM pitchers, 3 non-BRM position players
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 2, 2009 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
Jimmy Anderson's gotta be one of those pitchers.
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
Geronimo's been listed already too
6 of the top 14 were on one team, but to be fair, 4 of those players are in the top 5 in the organization in games played. So, some their high ranking is mainly because of their longevity with the team. Not that they were bad players, but I think Davis or Klu is better than Concepcion, but Concepcion just lasted longer.
Definitely a good argument.
Concepcion's one of the hardest guys to rank
He lasted 19 seasons, but was never really great. He played almost twice as many games with the Reds as Klu..
He was a perennial All-Star
If I recall my 1970’s baseball cards.
Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!
Best SS of his era I don't care what the stats say.
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.
Winston Churchill
You are correct, sir.
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Dec 2, 2009 9:22 PM EST up reply actions
Thank You Dr. Turtle for your vote of affirmation
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.
Winston Churchill
Also...
As I’ve been doing this, I’ve wondered how many of the players benefitted from being given a lifetime pass based on how good the BRM was. If they had never won a WS, would Concepcion been kept on the team as long as he was? Although maybe it was just Pete and Davey (and JB to a lesser extent) who got the key to the city…
Tony Perez was the Key to the BRM
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.
Winston Churchill
I think longevity deserves some recognition, especially at shortstop
Accumulating stats by just sticking around definitely skews the rankings, but I think there’s value in providing stability at a premium position for an era. This seems like it’s largely captured by the positional adjustments in a stat like WAR in conjunction with it being cumulative. If that reward a player for being acceptable at a position for 20 year, that seems OK.
The Reds were spoiled by the Concepcion and Larkin eras, in which they never had to scrounge around to fill a premium position for which it seems exceedingly difficult to both develop and acquire talent. Pokey Reese and Felipe Lopez flamed out as SS, Keppinger was below replacement level, A-Gon had a decent year in ’07 and Janish might be the most lopsided player to field the position in recent memory.
The Big Klu was better baseball player and greater talent than Davey, but I’m not sure whether had more value to the franchise over time, which seems closer to how “great” is being defined in this list.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 2, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know about that
Concepcion was 4th in MVP voting in ’81 and his 97 OPS+ was 3rd among NL SS in ’82; he was the starting SS for only 3 more seasons after that.
If his defense was as good as we all like to believe (his last Gold Glove came the year before Ozzie Smith’s first of 13 consecutive), he certainly deserved to be the starter in ’82 and possibly after that.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
right
in comparison to the All-Time Reds, his star dims a bit because a majority of his production is based on his longevity. but in comparison to his impotent contemporaries, he was one of the finest shortstops in the NL for a long time. so he may have been a top-tier SS for a decade and deserved all the playing time he got, but it was a decade of weak shortstops. and when you compare that to guys like Klu or Davis it loses a bit of its luster.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 2, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
Yes well neither Klu or ED had the longetivity that Davy had.
There should be no penalty for longenity..he was a great player for a long long long time.
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.
Winston Churchill
he's not saying their should be a penalty
he’s saying that the reason that Davey is rated ahead of those two is because of he longevity.
And he was a very good player, but I wouldn’t call him great except for maybe a year or two.
Definitely a good argument.
Just looked at his WAR
It surprised me to see that Davey, for a decade (1973-1982), was generally a more valuable player than Brandon Phillips has been. He should have been batting 4th!
I’m a little surprised to see that Rally’s system rates BP so lowly since he includes base running, but Total Zone does not like BP at all.
Definitely a good argument.
Did you ever see him play in person?
He made so many spectacular plays…I know my response is emotional, that of a fan first, but Davey had to play with more than one 3b partner with a medium to low range. I remember him going to deep into the hole so often – to his righ and making that one skip throw…the guy was a clutch ( Ialmost fogot and used the C word) invaluable hitter down in the line up.
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.
Winston Churchill
spot on
Davey was a legitimate borderline Hall of Famer. Skinny Davey was unreal in the field.
And just a couple years ago on this very website weren’t folks calling for Jeff Keppinger to man the SS position for the Reds? Old Davey has much more range than young Jeffy.
"Nate Silver is a genius" .... BK
Concecion definitely benefits from the operational definition of "value" here
— that is, how replaceable a player for his position and era. Part of the interpretation is that he benefitted from leaner competition at SS in his day, but the other part is that he was value regardless, because he played above the median at a time when it was harder to find talent at his level. This allowed him to hold the position for a long time and I think there’s a discrete value in that sustainability.
I don’t have any direct evidence for this but it seems like teams make desperate, ill-advised trades/signings especially to fix up-the-middle positions like SS and CF and having a SS with sustained value, even if greater perceived than actual, gives a team better leverage than a player at most any other position.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 2, 2009 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
This also applies to Dave Concepcion
not just his lesser-none Bizzaro counterpart, Dave Concecion
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 2, 2009 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
2 others were team mates I'd bet for a long time
Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
i haven't seen
Todd Benzinger yet, so surely he’s on his way. Not to mention Paul Householder, who should be around here somewhere.
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
Yeah don't forget Chic Ruiz
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.
Winston Churchill
I'm pretty curious to see who the top ranked pitcher turns out to be
Eppa Rixey? Is that a bad guess?
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 2, 2009 12:57 PM EST reply actions
Not a bad guess
But not a correct guess either.
He certainly is the Red's pitcher with the most successful insurance franshise.
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.
Winston Churchill
Crap
Reply is broken agian.
My post above wasn’t directed at the idea that Concepcion was/wasn’t more valuable than guys like Davis or Kluszewski; it was in reply to the statement that he lasted so long, in part, because of his BRM ties. While there may be a bit of truth to that, in large part he stuck around because he deserved to.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
you are the only person who has a broken reply button
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
Another thing about Concepcion
If the baseballprojection.com numbers are to be believed, it’s incorrect to say his value over Kluszewski was purely in playing time. While he didn’t have an 8 WAR season, Concepcion had as many seasons of 3 or more WAR (7) as Kluszewski had of 1 or more WAR.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
You tell 'em sid!!!!!!
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.
Winston Churchill
and yet, I'd still take Klu's 1952-1956 over any 5 year stretch of Concepcion
Klu and Davis were better players than Concepcion, but Davey stayed healthy. I’m not dogging on Davey for that, just point to the fact that it is a big reason why he is high up on the list.
Definitely a good argument.
(hit post too soon)
Because then you’d have to add in a 0 WAR and a 0.7 WAR from “healthy” years.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
sure
Klu’s best 8 consecutive seasons are still 1 WAR better than Davey’s. Davey’s best consecutive 9 seasons are 1.2 WAR better than Klu’s.
Honestly though, it doesn’t make much difference. The only point I’m trying to make is that what put Davey ahead of Klu on this list is his longevity. In 8 more seasons with the Reds, Concepcion has 4 more WAR. Do you think that if Klu had stayed healthy and with the Reds in 1957 and 1958, he wouldn’t have made up that 4 WAR difference? (obviously this is all moot since the list is using Win Shares, but the point is still there).
Definitely a good argument.
I don't know
…because I don’t know his injury history. I do know that in ‘57, he only had .2 WAR in about 20% of a season, and in ’58 the same WAR in about half a season; extrapolating, that doesn’t come close to 4 WAR over those two seasons. I also know that it was because his SLG fell back to it’s pre-peak level (2174 PA, .437 SLG, 101 OPS+ pre-peak, 1199,.427, 100 post-peak); did he have a skill set that didn’t age well?
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
BR Bullpen says the main injury was a bad back
which would explain the drop in power. His numbers may look like a bell curve, but it’s a pretty freaking short curve given his quality peak. I’m not sure what aging curves looked like in that era, but to be MVP level at 29 and washed up at 32 seems particularly steep, though obviously not unheard of.
Definitely a good argument.
Another thing about Klu
That makes me think it was more than just “injuries”: Look at his WAR, starting in ’51: 0.0, 3.7, 5.2, 8.1, 5.4, 3.1, ~0.8 (0.2 over 20% of a season). That looks pretty bell-curvish to me.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
Shoot the Archduke of Austria?
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
by sidnancy on Dec 3, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
I just don't think that Big Klu could have played SS as well as Davey could have played 1st base.
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.
Winston Churchill
that is factored into WAR
Davey gets a lot of extra-credit for playing SS while Klu gets docked for playing 1B
Definitely a good argument.
Aha - good to know!
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.
Winston Churchill
flag'd
for starting a war, and sinking the Lusitania.
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
I'm so young,
I didn’t realize that Klu was that much better than Dunn.
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
Reading over Klu's blurb there
It really struck me that what Marty and the Reds fans in general wanted to see out of Dunn was the second coming of Kluszewski (and thank you Slyde for making the Sporkle quizzes just accept “Klu”). Obviously that’s not what Dunn was, specifically in Klu’s absurdly low strikeout totals. A fascinating comparison though.
jesus riverfront
this series has been exhaustive, informative and a shitton of fun. i know we’ve got a ways to go, but you deserve big ups. big, big ups.
also, klu’s arms. jesus.
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
"Have you ever seen a Polish conversation-stopper?"
I’m kind of convinced that if Big Klu was around today, he’d be just the sort of person I wouldn’t like…but I love him anyways
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
perhaps the reds Worst 100 is in the works?
Willie Greene! Paul Householder! TSFJC. Alex Trevino. Rick Auerbach. Willy Taveras.
"Nate Silver is a genius" .... BK
Lenny Harris
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
by justin007000 on Dec 3, 2009 10:53 AM EST up reply actions
Chico Ruiz ?
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.
Winston Churchill
Bill Bergen
who is commonly held to be the worst player in baseball history. 11 seasons, 3228 PA, OPS+ of 21. He was actually good (for him) with the Reds. He played 3 seasons, 886 PA, and posted an OPS+ of 33.
Perhaps the worst Reds career by a recent player is Gookie Dawkins, 107 PA, OPS+ of 15.
Definitely a good argument.
excellent for a top rated prospect in 2000 or 2001 or soemthing liek that.
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
Really?
Why does it seem like he had alot more than 107 PA?
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
was that also during The Great Dmitri Young at 3b Experiment?
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
Gookie
So I looked.
In his rookie year, fragile 35 year old Barry Larkin played all but 90 innings at SS. Nice timing.
In 2000, fragile 36 year old Barry Larkin apparently got hurt in the 2nd inning of a game vs the Dodgers on April 21 on a single up the middle. Gookie is given the job at SS, starting 12 of the next 15 games; he responds by OPSing .524. He’s so bad, in fact, that Mano de Oro is given the job as Larkin’s caddy the rest of the year (Lark plays only 102 games) and is an actual improvement over Dawkins.
Of course, he was still only 22 the next year, so maybe some seasoning in the minors will help? Not so much. He “blistered” AA to the tune of a .628 OPS in ‘01, yet still managed to make the ’02 team out of spring break. Even though Larkin was again pretty healthy (he played about 75% of the innings at SS), and Gookie was his main backup, it still didn’t work out – in more than half of his career PAs (55), he had an OPS+ of 3.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
You have an inordinate and irrational love for a play that is a total goof.
I recommend therapy.
Dr. Paramecium Swahish Madville Del Ri0, esq.
M.D., Ph.D, D.T.D, and D.O.A.
Office hours by appointment only.
Please send your $180.00 payment in advance to:
Dr.M’s Sanity Emporium
The Ghetto
Cincti, Ohio
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.
Winston Churchill

by 























