The Greatest Reds: #1
1. Pete Rose
| Played as Red | Primary Position | Career Rank | Peak Rank | Prime Rank |
| 1963-78, 1984-86 | LF, 3B, 2B, RF, 1B | 1 | 4 | 2 |
| Percent Breakdown of Value | Best Season | Best player on Reds | ||
| Hit | Field | Pitch | 1969 | 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1971 |
| 84% | 16% | 0% | ||
| Awards/Honors as a Red | Leading the League | On the Reds Leaderboard | ||
| Most Valuable Player – 1973 Rookie of Year – 1963 World Series MVP – 1975 Hutch Award – 1968 Lou Gehrig Award – 1969 Roberto Clemente Award – 1976 Gold Glove – 1969, 1970 All Star – 1965, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1985 |
Hits – 1965, 1968, 1970, 1972, 1973, 1976 Plate Appearances – 1965, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1976, 1977, 1978 At Bats – 1965, 1972, 1973, 1977 On Base Percentage – 1968 Batting Average – 1968, 1969, 1973 Runs Scored – 1969, 1974, 1975, 1976 Singles – 1973 Doubles – 1974, 1975, 1976, 1978 |
-1st in career runs scored |
||

via www.mkrob.com
Peter Edward Rose, perhaps more than any man in the history of the world, was built to hit .300. One suspects that it was not only important to him (you just *know* he kept track of his stats), but that there was some sort of innate necessity—like an internal magnet that drew him towards a .300 batting average. I say this for a variety of reasons: one, Rose played for a really, really long time, came up to bat more than anyone ever, and hit .303 for that career. But at the end of his career, he had—as player/manager—the ability to write himself in or out of the lineup. As his skills dimmed (he hit just .219 in his final season), he had the power to ensure that his lifetime mark stayed above that magic line. More interesting, however, is just how balanced it all was after 14,000 at-bats. Rose hit .302 in day games, .303 at night. He hit .303 on grass, and the same on turf. Domed stadiums presented no trouble (.301). He wasn’t a total robot—for example he was a better left-handed hitter than right—but it must have seemed that way to opponents, at times. From 1965 through 1980, Rose managed at least 175 hits in each season—and often times posted many more than that. Too much has been written about Rose, much of it either overly positive or overly negative. Here, then, are five observations about Rose, rooted primarily in fact and data:
1) Rose was at least a little bit lucky that Tommy Helms wasn’t either a bit older or a bit better. Rose won Rookie of the Year in 1963, due in part to the fact that there weren’t many good candidates that year (he had just a 101 OPS+, and was caught stealing more times than he was successful). The following season, Rose was pretty bad—80 OPS+, didn’t field particularly well, etc. The Reds had Helms, another 2nd baseman, in AAA that year, and he was just not quite ready for prime time. Actually, as his career unveiled, it turned out he wasn’t quite good enough to be foundational to a winning team. Rose bounced back in ’65 (led the league in hits, finished 6th in MVP voting), but an impatient team or a better alternative at 2nd base might have changed his situation considerably.
2) Rose bounced from position to position, generally at four-year intervals, and didn’t play any of them particularly well. Honestly, one of the great surprises in this entire project was that Rose won two Gold Glove awards, while playing right field, but I would guess that a retrospective, fielding data-based examination of the results wouldn’t approve. Actually, he was probably a decent enough left fielder in the early 70’s, especially playing alongside Tolan or Geronimo. He didn’t make many errors, and was almost certainly pretty intelligent about throws, or running down flies, etc.
3) One of my favorite unknowable questions in baseball history is this: how many home runs could Pete Rose have hit had he employed a different style of hitting? He certainly didn’t hit very many as it was: just 160 of his 4256 hits went over the fence, and he peaked at 16, twice. From 1972 on, he reached double digit dingers just once. Still, he regularly led the league in doubles (five separate times during his 30’s), and he appeared to be muscular enough to turn some of those doubles into home runs. One imagines that his mental calculus determined that trying for home runs decrease the batting average, and that might mean he drop below .300…
4) Rose played until he was 45 years old. He clearly and transparently played long enough to eclipse Ty Cobb’s hits record. Still, he was good enough in 1985, at age 44, to post a .395 on-base percentage.
5) Throughout his career and its aftermath, Rose was probably a bit overrated. He was flashy, a great quote, a statistical freak given his longevity, and he had an elevated profile in part due to the greatness of his teammates. His peak was very good, but wasn’t other-worldly (he had only two seasons with OPS+ marks above 150, although he was generally on-base heavy). Still, it’s possible that his ridiculous career marks are understated. The indescribably good Baseball-reference.com takes efforts to translate each player’s season to a "neutral" offensive era, whereby teams average just over 4.4 runs per game. Since Rose’s peak took place in the pitcher-friendly 1960’s, he emerges favorably from this exercise, which imagines 4,604 career hits, 800 doubles, and an OPS of 815 instead of his actual 784.
Rose spent 19 seasons with the Reds, came to bat over 12,000 times, scored over 1700 runs, maintained a 124 OPS+, and reached base safely over 4,500 times.
The Top 15 Left Fielders in Reds history
1 Pete Rose
2 Frank Robinson
3 George Foster
4 Adam Dunn
5 Bob Bescher
6 Pat Duncan
7 Kal Daniels
8 Eric Tipton
9 Babe Herman
10 Joe Kelley
11 Dmitri Young
12 Gary Redus
13 Elmer Smith
14 Jerry Lynch
15 Mike Donlin
7 recs |
89 comments
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Comments
Wow
awesome. I can’t believe you did this. As a fairly new Reds fan (2004ish) this series has given me a nice historical perspective. Of course, I would have spent my time watching tv.
Dusty Baker said it was the first [triple play] he’d seen in person. When he was with the Dodgers, they hit into one, but he was in the bathroom.- C Trent
by The Crushinator on Dec 18, 2009 12:15 PM EST reply actions
I've said it before, I'll say it again
Rose, along with the Black Sox and the steroid users, ought to be in Cooperstown. Let the history books tell of their moral shortcomings. Let the Hall hold plaques of those who dominated the turf.
by ben nevis on Dec 18, 2009 12:34 PM EST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
amazing job riverfront
this is one of the coolest projects ever undertaken at RR, certainly the most thorough and undoubtedly took who knows how much hard work. But beside that it was all a fantastic read from start to finish. Great job.
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
by boobs on Dec 18, 2009 12:34 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Seconded.
I’ve done some historical work myself, and have written my share of player profiles, but you did an exceptional job with this series. Kudos for completing it.
-j
I write at:
Beyond the Boxscore | Red Reporter | Basement-Dwellers.com | Twitter: @jinazreds
Great job
If only my buddies at Royals Review could plow through a Top 100 with as much persistence as you have.
Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!
The Royals have been around since when--1969?
I would imagine that the lower tiers of such a top 100 would be…breath-taking.
by riverfront76 on Dec 18, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
No need to imagine
The list, from # 100 up through # 32, is right here, plus # 31, who he didn’t yet get around to adding to the master list.
It’s the upper tiers that are missing. Everyone knows who # 1 is, and I could list off to you who must be in the remaining top 30, but what order they’re in (plus the enjoyable accompanying articles) are still unwritten.
Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!
WOW
I had no idea Kevin McReynolds ever played for KC, much less merited a top-100 billing.
by riverfront76 on Dec 18, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
There's a lot of names on that list I associate with other teams first
Jay Bell, Wally Joyner, Paul Byrd, Gary Gaetti, Raul Ibanez, Jeff Suppan … and of course, Danny Jackson.
Bo Jackson at #37?
Seems a bit low for the best athlete in the history of the game.
Set the gearshift to the high gear of your soul.
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Dec 18, 2009 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
There's a big difference
between being an athlete and being a baseball player. Also, he only had 2000 PA in KC due to injuries and football.
But in my mind, Bo Jackson was one of the top 2 or 3 athletes in the past 100 years.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
on second thought, i should take that back.
i don’t think it has ever been confirmed whether he was on roids. he was a freak of nature, but every time i see a picture of him i can’t help but think the dude was on the juice. he looked like black popeye.
I remember a story on Bo
from when he was at Auburn. He claimed to have never lifted any weights, yet still looked like, er, black popeye.
by riverfront76 on Dec 18, 2009 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
Are you sure?
That sounds like Hershel Walker. He only ever did sit-ups, push-ups, and ran. Ever.
I remember seeing some type of show on him and his workout regimen long after he retired. He was talking about the importance of sticking with it.
(Paraphrasing): “I know it’s tough, because your routine gets stale; my routine gets stale. Every once in a while, I’ll mix it up by doing 100 sit-ups, resting, then 99, resting, and so on. Then, I’ll do the same thing with push-ups. It doesn’t seem like much, but that one day of change is enough to make the whole routine worth going back to the next day.”
Do the math: Every once in a while, as a “change”, he’ll do 5000 push-ups and sit-ups. Each. In the same workout.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
I would have been too young for it to be Herschel
That said, it was the SEC. Both guys were probably pumped full of horse muscle.
by riverfront76 on Dec 18, 2009 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
There was a "where are they now?" feature in SI a few years ago
that had Jackson. He apparently likes to hunt. I think it also verified what you’re saying about not lifting.
I imagine he goes out in the woods with a butter knife and a bad attitude
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
by Cy Schourek on Dec 18, 2009 10:22 PM EST up reply actions
It was nice work
but it’s okay if I still hate Rose for being a terrible person (which isn’t so uncommon) and the worst damn manager I ever saw? I hope it’s okay, because I intend to carry it forward
As a bad manager
Russ Nixon and god knows how many others say “Hi”. Pete was actually a decent (not great)manager, and probably would’ve gotten much better had he not been banned.
by Blue or CONKZILLA on Dec 19, 2009 5:22 AM EST up reply actions
No.
Sweet Lou took his team wire to wire his first year.
Pete was able to finish 2nd to three different teams with talent which was (arguably) the best in the National League, when they weren’t losing 100 games in his early tenure).
In the OF alone he had Daniels, O’Neill/Jones, and Davis (along with Parker for the 1986-1987 seasons). His infield included a productive Buddy Bell, Barry, Kurt Stillwell, and Esasky. He easily had the best bullpen in MLB. His rotation was serviceable, if not spectacular. Save for the ‘89 season, the team was almost ridiculously healthy. And, he couldn’t win with them.
The only thing Pete ever succeeded at as manager was writing his .225 hitting self into the line up long enough to catch and surpass Ty Cobb (oh, and make sure his bookies stayed rich). He was a terrible manager and that’s the main reason I still support the ban. If it were ever lifted, some idiot Reds owner would install him and he would make Dusty Baker look like Casey Stengal.
So, No.
Thanks, riverfront76!
This season was an awesome undertaking, and I’m glad it was you and not me that did it. I still disagree with your top 5, but whaddya gonna do. It was still a great read! Looking forward to what you have for us next. :)
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
FWIW
This is how Sean Smith’s WAR sees the top 20 Reds All Time:
Player WARIt appears that WAR seems to hold pitching in a little higher regard than Win Shares.
Pete Rose 74.6
Johnny Bench 71.3
Barry Larkin 68.9
Frank Robinson 61.5
Joe Morgan 61.3
Vada Pinson 45.1
Tony Perez 43.8
Edd Roush 41.1
Noodles Hahn 39.6
Heinie Groh 38.7
George Foster 38.1
Eppa Rixey 37.0
Bid McPhee 36.4
Jim Maloney 35.1
Dolf Luque 35.0
Jose Rijo 33.7
Dave Concepcion 33.6
Frank Dwyer 31.9
Bucky Walters 31.2
Paul Derringer 31.2
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
baselines
AFAIK, starters and relievers get the same baseline in WS.
In WAR, they are very different. The same pitcher playing as a starter will post better stats as a reliever. Therefore, the replacement level stat line for a starter is much lower than for a reliever in WAR.
-j
I write at:
Beyond the Boxscore | Red Reporter | Basement-Dwellers.com | Twitter: @jinazreds
No way Larkin ranks ahead of Robby
And Morgan is underrated.
"Santa Claus doesn't use Craigslist." -- 'tHan
length of career with the Reds
Larkin had 19 years. Robinson had 10. Morgan had 8. That’s the reason Larkin has more WAR than them.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
I understand that
My mind just tells me that Robinson was a MUCH better player.
I have a hard time differentiating between performance while in a Reds uniform and career performance.
"Santa Claus doesn't use Craigslist." -- 'tHan
Agreed..you sir, are so correct!
Chris was a guy that ... was heavily misunderstood.. the only guys that knew Chris and knew how good of a heart he had, how kind he was, how gentle he was, how soft of a heart he had, were the guys in our locker room, the guys who were close to him, his family." — Bengals quarterback Carson Palmer
Nicely done
Along with crunching the numbers, the snippets of the players were very interesting.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
Awesome, awesome, job riverfront
I love that picture of Pete, too. He just looks so damned furious and all.
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
Yep
Best picture of the series, IMO.
I gotta say, I’ve grown mighty weary of Pete over the last 20 years or so. But writing this capsule was the most enjoyable part of the whole deal. He’s such a freak that it’s no wonder so many people have written about him
by riverfront76 on Dec 18, 2009 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
Call me biased, but IMO Bench was a better player than Rose.
Rose just had a shitload of counting stats.
eh, Robinson and Morgan were better than both of them
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
I'm sorry, I meant as a Red, I felt that Bench was better than Rose
I definitely feel that Robinson and Morgan were better than Rose, although I think Robinson was better than Bench, but Bench was better than Morgan.
IMO, or course.
by Highlifeman21 on Dec 18, 2009 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
im not sold on Robinson better than Bench
apples and oranges. Bench is widely regarded as the best C ever. Joe Mauer might have something to say about that, however.
"Nate Silver is a genius" .... BK
Robinson was better than Bench. Hands down. I will not argue this.
"Santa Claus doesn't use Craigslist." -- 'tHan
holy shit
Mind = blown.
Also, L’Ville is in DEEP shit come January 2nd. I’ll be the first to admit it.
"Santa Claus doesn't use Craigslist." -- 'tHan
i dont think it will be that bad
probably in the 12-15-point range. I expect the Cards to be ready. But outmatched.
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
Seems about right
But it has the distinct possibility of getting UGLY. Pitino’s first visit to Lexington since fuck-me-in-the-middle-of-a-restaurant-gate, Cal’s hiring, the resurgence of UK coupled with the losses of L’Ville…..
Louisville 81, UK 76
Mark it down. :)
"Santa Claus doesn't use Craigslist." -- 'tHan
Have to, man
I didn’t lose faith in the early to mid 90s, I’m DAMNED not sure giving in now.
"Santa Claus doesn't use Craigslist." -- 'tHan
i think an argument can be made for any one of the top 5
Rose had the counting stats, Bench was the greatest catcher, Morgan was the greatest 2B, Larkin was one of the best all-around players, and Robby was just a tornado. you could put them in any order and i wouldnt argue.
"Everything you are doing is bad. I want you to know this."
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 18, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
My sentiments exactly
The other-worldly peaks of Morgan, Bench and Robinson are of course incredibly valuable. But to be able to pencil in 14 years of all-star production for 160 games a year from a defensively versatile player is pretty awesome too. I wouldn’t argue with Bench or Morgan at the top.
Great job, riverfront76!
i dont know if we can thank him enough
RF76, ive read books – real live paper books – written by real live writers listing the best 100 players or some such. they dont hold a candle. your work is a credit to Reds fans in particular and baseball fans in general.
"Everything you are doing is bad. I want you to know this."
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 18, 2009 9:28 PM EST up reply actions
Good point
Kinda cool to have that group as your top five, eh?
"Santa Claus doesn't use Craigslist." -- 'tHan
Just think of think of the numbers
those 5 would put up in todays game with the bad pitching, smaller parks and better conditioning (I’m not talking about steroids)…along with Foster, Perez, Griffey Sr, Concepcion, Geronimo and Driesenn.
by Blue or CONKZILLA on Dec 19, 2009 5:28 AM EST up reply actions
Pete Rose - wow just wow
rvierfront76 – wow just wow
Chris was a guy that ... was heavily misunderstood.. the only guys that knew Chris and knew how good of a heart he had, how kind he was, how gentle he was, how soft of a heart he had, were the guys in our locker room, the guys who were close to him, his family." — Bengals quarterback Carson Palmer
C'mon Daeds...
I thought we was pals..
Chris was a guy that ... was heavily misunderstood.. the only guys that knew Chris and knew how good of a heart he had, how kind he was, how gentle he was, how soft of a heart he had, were the guys in our locker room, the guys who were close to him, his family." — Bengals quarterback Carson Palmer
THANKS A BILLION!
I toss a bouquet of roses onto the heap as well!
This is a masterpiece of historical perspective. While I think we all agree that we could have come up with our top 6 or so with or without the data, nobody is bellyaching about the process. And the other 94 guys on the list have come to life!
Thanks, gang. Let’s hope to revisit it in a couple of years!
John U
I am looking forward to seeing some of our guys climb the Top 15 positional player lists
Already encouraging to see Phillips and Votto there. Let’s raise a glass to Jay Bruce’s storming of the Right Field list.
by Brendanukkah on Dec 18, 2009 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
don't think Freel is going to come back on a minor league deal, do you?
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
by Cy Schourek on Dec 18, 2009 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
Utility Guy on All-Time MLB Team
If one is putting together an all-time MLB team, Rose would have to be on the team as a utility guy. He wasn’t the best 1st baseman, 2nd baseman, 3rd baseman, left fielder, or right fielder ever. There’s no question that he was the best ever to have spent so much time at so many different positions.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Great job, riverfront
Thanks for taking this huge undertaking on, you did an awesome job with this.
"We, as for me all seasons you are affected peculiarly in the edge of my seat and are happy concerning the fact that the Adam Dunn fan has been mixed up exactly." - Reynard-san
Wowza
This was a pretty awesome feature! Well done.
People Don't Kill People. Burning Couches Kill People.
Reading this series has been a daily enjoyment.
Thank you, riverfront.
Also, let’s not forget Pete could sing!
Also, he was SEXY!
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Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans
by Farneyismycopilot on Dec 18, 2009 5:22 PM EST reply actions
I'd like to echo all the praise, riverfront
Fantastic work. I spent most of the day driving from DC to Dayton, and one of the first thoughts I had on the trip was that I’d have to wait to read all about The Greatest Red EVAR.
I have a request
Do you have the raw numbers for “career”, “peak”, and “prime”? You already said Morgan’s prime (best 5 consecutive years) was 22% higher than anyone else; I think it would be interesting to see how close/far apart some of the other scores are.
Plus, I could rub Rose’s huge advantage in “career” in Slyde’s face. (By the way did anyone else notice whose prime was 2nd to Morgan’s?)
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
It all depends on what metric you use, my friend
Rose – WS prime: 160
Rose – WSAA prime: 66
Rose – WAR prime: 31.5
Robinson – WS prime: 157
Robinson – WSAA prime: 70
Robinson – WAR prime: 34.4
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
Alas, the end of this list
reminds me that our hometown hero is as human as we and often less so. Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes: “You make government and art and realize that they are, must be, both the same. You bring things to the saddest of all points, to the point where there is something to lose. Then, all at once, through all the music, through all the sensible sounds of men building, attempting, comes the Dies Irae. And what is it? What does the trumpet sound? ‘Up yours’.”
Here he is Reds fans, your hillbilly, your one and only, Peter Edward Rose.
Wear something sexy to my funeral.
I hereby commit myself to use the word "foundational" within the week
But since I’m not working this week it will probably be to my girlfriend as she puts on makeup. Damn it all.
"Santa Claus doesn't use Craigslist." -- 'tHan
Fantastic stuff, riverfront!
Thanks for the walk through history!
"If it wasn't this, it'd be something else."
I'm hoping that rf76 will tackle the top 25 Bengal cheerleaders next..
but not literally…you don’t know where a lot of that stuff has been.
Chris was a guy that ... was heavily misunderstood.. the only guys that knew Chris and knew how good of a heart he had, how kind he was, how gentle he was, how soft of a heart he had, were the guys in our locker room, the guys who were close to him, his family." — Bengals quarterback Carson Palmer
#1 Bengal cheerleader
That one that jumps around a lot and looks like some of the other girls. Had a peak cheer in 1998, followed by a slow decline to the point where she is now just shouting “wooooo”.
Also, one suspects the drapes don’t match the carpet.
by riverfront76 on Dec 19, 2009 9:11 AM EST up reply actions
Come on now, most of those girls are poor college students trying to make it through.
Give ’em a break!
(See, girls, I stood up for you. Can I get your phone number? Come on….)
"If it wasn't this, it'd be something else."
If you like girls with:
1. Makeup trowled on
2. Grotesque applications of silicone
3. Really BIG hair
4. Who dance like a 1960s Shindigger girl
5. Are dedicated to the proposition of marrying a pro-athlete
Then this challenge is for you riverfront.
No where in the Bengalette handbook does it say anything about ‘taste’ or ‘Interesting Style’.
-090913-Den--nfl_medium_540_360.-003.jpg)
Chris was a guy that ... was heavily misunderstood.. the only guys that knew Chris and knew how good of a heart he had, how kind he was, how gentle he was, how soft of a heart he had, were the guys in our locker room, the guys who were close to him, his family." — Bengals quarterback Carson Palmer
its not "Bengalette"
it’s “Ben-GALS”
"Everything you are doing is bad. I want you to know this."
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 19, 2009 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
There's a 41 year old cheerleader from Springboro on the Ben-Gals squad this year
They had a nice article about her in the Dayton Daily News over Thanksgiving. She’s a mother of two and is teaching herself to play the drums.
by Brendanukkah on Dec 19, 2009 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
oh, come on
you’re just trying to get people to get themselves banned now
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
by Cy Schourek on Dec 19, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
Here's the link...you'd think someone would be over this kind of thing by 41 !!!
http://www.deuceofdavenport.com/2009/11/bengals-cheerleader-proves-age-aint.html
Chris was a guy that ... was heavily misunderstood.. the only guys that knew Chris and knew how good of a heart he had, how kind he was, how gentle he was, how soft of a heart he had, were the guys in our locker room, the guys who were close to him, his family." — Bengals quarterback Carson Palmer
Robby underrated in writeup of greatest reds
This was an outstanding series of writeups. I especially liked the writeups of Vada Pinson for number 9 and Ed Roush for number 7. My only criticism is that the Frank Robinson writeup falls short of doing justice to his all around greatness. He was the Intimidator, at bat and on the bases, the Bob Gibson of position players.
He was one of the best baserunners of his era, one of the first 20-20 HR/SB players (3 times). Those 3 seasons he was in the top 5 in the NL in stolen bases. For breaking up double plays, he was more feared by middle infielders than any player of his time and any player since.
Robby wasn’t just a good LFer, he was a good RFer too. Up thru 1964, he had an above average arm for a LFer and an average arm for a RFer. He did not want to play first base.
Robby crowded the plate in an era when pitchers owned the inside of the plate. His battles with Don Drysdale, whom he usually got the better of, were the stuff of legend.
Robinson would receive more recognition if, like only Mays and Aaron, he had reached the 600 HR and 3,000 hit plateaus. He had 2943 career hits and 586 HRs. He could easily have reached both plateaus, but in the last two years of his career, as player-manager of the Indians, he rarely put himself in the lineup as DH.
Pete Rose BTW was less than average at 3rd base, although of course he helped the team by moving there. He had little range and, at that point in his career, his throwing arm was damaged. People forget that the one liability of the ’75-76 Reds starting lineup was his defense at 3rd.
Joe Morgan was great, but only for 6 (consecutive ) seasons. But then again Sandy Koufax, the best pitcher I ever saw, dominated for only 6 seasons.
Michael G. Burke
You tell 'em JC
My liver may gone but I’ve still got a brain…it is around here somewhere………..

Incompetents invariably make trouble for people other than themselves.
Larry Mcmurtry

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