Reds trying to move Harangatang and other warm stove news
by Dave from Louisville on Dec 16, 2009 10:09 PM EST
230 comments
The Reds are trying to deal Harang http://twitter.com/ed_price/status/6735032086
Dusty cries as Dodgers grab Jamey Carrol for 4 mil with incentives http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN/status/6747107899
All is quiet with Tejada and Cabera.
Okay here's a scenerio I want to throw out there. The Reds trade Harang and pay 5 million of his salary for some spare high risk prospects, freeing up 6 million in salary. I am going to also assume they have about 2-3 million left before they reach their payroll limit. Moving Arroyo or Harang just got a lot easier with all the pitchers that have been moving since Monday.
This move allows Walt to sign either Tejada or Cabera to a one year deal in the 6 - 9 million range. There are not very many starting SS gigs out there right now so the price on these guys will come down. (Oakland, Astros, and us are the only ones I can think of but please correct me if there are more.)
Walt is doing a great job by letting the market develop. This allows the possible return for Harang to possibly go up and allow the price for a SS to come down. Non-tendering Gomes was definitely the right move at the 2.2 mil Fay quoted. http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2009/12/16/s-r/ .......especially when I think Wlad is going to have a comparable net value.
If I were Walt I would do everything in my power to do two things.
1. Trade one of Harang/Arroyo/Cordero to free up the money to sign Cabera or Tejeda to a one year deal.
2. Trade absolutely any group of prospects in our system to acquire Nelson Cruz. This includes anyone not named Cueto, Bailey, Bruce, Votto, Stubbs, and preferably not Maloney or Wood. I would try to package a group of promising hitters for him. (Alonso,Frazier, or Francisco would be the centerpiece)
If plan 1 falls through I go to 1A which is trade for Maicer Izturis and 1B is play Janish.
What do you think? Who should we target, and more importantly what do you think Walt will do?
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Does this team do goddamn value analysis?
Why the constant Harang trade talks when he’s coming off injury and a terrible season?
Also, if we trade one of the big money trio, you can bet your ass it’s for a salary dump and not part of a plan to sign a SS. Someone might want to tell Bob it’s hard to make any money when you’re putting a C- product on the field.
Anyone else excited for the inevitable 78-84 of 2010?
RR: Proud home of the most mods in SBNation.
Precisely
They do, in fact, do “value analysis.” Hence the reason they’d be inclined to pick up a SS like Cabrera on the cheap (much like the Angels did with Abreu a year ago). If they can find a partner to trade Harang to, and can finagle their way into signing O-Cab on a cheaper salary than last year’s (which they should be able to do), it’s called ‘arbitrage.’
I’d be all for it. If we can trade Harang and save $6-7 mill, and use it to sign Cabrera and a low end #5 starter, sign me up.
Angels, anyone??
Set the gearshift to the high gear of your soul.
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Dec 16, 2009 10:22 PM EST up reply actions
The team would be worse off if this happens
If they just dump Harang to clear room for Cabrera and a #5 starter, there is no improvement to the team. I’m not sure what the fascination is with Cabrera. He’s only a slight upgrade over Janish and I’m certain the Reds would lose more ground by replacing Harang with a #5 starter.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
Completely agreed.
Whereas Janish comes by his low OPS honestly (he can’t hit); Cabrera earns his by being a hacktastic jackass who swings at pick-off throws to first. There is no future in that move.
I've heard this before
but fail to understand how a guy who hits about 70 points higher with more power and speed is “only a slight upgrade”. And Harang’s been pretty much worthless over the last two years no matter what your WAR says.
Ok, so you don't like WAR
on what basis, other than your own two eyes, do you claim he’s been worthless?
If I hear the word 'perky' again, I'll puke
And Cabrera is probably not an upgrade at all
because he never walks, so his OBP is only slightly higher than Janish. Add to that his atrocious defense and Janish is probably the better overall SS, or at least it’d be very close. Plus, Cabrera is much more likely to fall of a cliff in terms of value.
If I hear the word 'perky' again, I'll puke
Anyone else excited for the inevitable 78-84 of 2010?
None of us who saw it coming in the middle of last season when the “Just wait ’til 2011 gets here! payroll relief and all those kids will be stars” started being fed to Fay and Sheldon.
PS 2011 will suck too
exactly
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
by justin007000 on Dec 17, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
Really?
You haven’t just left a bar have you?
- The rotation is already paper-thin without Volquez. Trading away Harang, who at worst will be the #3 pitcher in the rotation (and at best returns to #1 status), leaves 2 gaping holes with alot of "maybe"s to fill them.
- Trading Harang now, coming off of a sub-par injury-shortened season, would be the dumbest thing possible. At no point in his career is his trade value lower.
- Tejada has less range than I do at this point in his career. By UZR he was -12.4 runs last year; by Total Zone he was -22.
- What does dumping Harang to sign an aging SS for 1 year actually accomplish, other than rearranging the deck chairs?
- Is Cabrera + a replacement-level starter really worth $11-$15M (more likely the latter) to the Reds over Harang + Janish? Remember, you’re willing to eat $5M of Harang’s salary.
- Nelson Cruz? If he was born one day earlier, he’d be entering his age-30 season; last year was his first as a full-time player. He might just be a late bloomer; more likely, he just isn’t very good and last year was his best just as he’s about to get expensive in ’11.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
I think Cruz is a "late bloomer"
but clearly Dave is on crack on this one. Trade anyone to get him? Including Votto, who had a better year than Cruz last season? Dave, put down the pipe.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
anyone in the farm which excludes Votto
by Dave from Louisville on Dec 17, 2009 8:34 AM EST up reply actions
damnit, I need to stop skimming
I just saw his name and flipped my shit. Sorry. My bad.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
But, Dave, why protect Wood or Maloney
Both of them are dart throwing lefties about to enter a offensive paradise. My goodness, Maloney will have Tom Browning’s HR’s-allowed numbers without the good sense to never have anyone on base when it happened that Tom had.
I’d say those two should the first part of any trade
Cuz nothing helps a baseball trade get made quicker than to start with mediocre prospects who haven't shined in MLB.
Give me a lineup of 9 Ryan Freels, and I'll show you a team that can't pitch.
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2009 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
I would prefer to trade Cordero
But with the glut of closers on the market that doesn’t look like it is going to happen.
I think Harang is valuable, but I do not think he is gong to return to pre-Dusty form. I bet a team would pay 5-7 million to have him on a one year deal. Maybe more if we included prospects.
Tejeda can fucking hit and gets BP out of the 4 hole. One this team a run of offense will be more important than a run saved.
Nelson is a stud
What’s your idea besides quit? I can tell you are still upset about the Rolen trade.
by Dave from Louisville on Dec 17, 2009 8:43 AM EST up reply actions
You have confused with someone else
I never was upset about the Rolen trade.
Tejada can hit better than Janish, but to say a 35 year old with a OPS+ of 103 over the past 3 years “can fucking hit” is quite a stretch. To say such a hitter would move Phillips (101 OPS+ the past 3 years) is also a stretch.
Cruz is a “stud”? One year playing full time, with an OPS+ of 117 makes him a “stud”?
Of course I want to make the team better. Your proposal, though:
- Costs the team money.
- Costs the team significant prospects in the Cruz trade (one of the top two prospects in the system as the “centerpiece”).
- Makes the pitching and defense significantly worse.
In no way does acquiring Tejada or Cabrera (as Slyde said, he’s a 36 year old Janish) improve this team, and dumping Harang hurts the team in the short term, especially since his value’s never been lower. And I’m sorry, but if Cruz was such a stud he wouldn’t have lost playing time in ’08 to Brandon Boggs.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
I like Rolen too
Tejada was a 2.6 WAR player and Cruz was a 3.6 WAR player. They are both studs and would completely transform the line-up to an above average offense.
I am cool with giving up prospects as long as they aren’t pitchers.
I know the rotation is thin, but this offense is down right pathetic. I have faith in Cueto, Bailey, Lehr, and Maloney to be servicable. I would not be surprised at all if Wood or Leake made the rotation out of ST with one of Harang/Arroyo gone.
by Dave from Louisville on Dec 17, 2009 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
Um, ok
Janish was a 1.1 WAR player, and will cost under $500K next year. Does it sound like a good idea to spend something like $10-13M for a 1.5 win improvement? Meanwhile, it’s not going to be a 1.5 win difference because Harang was likely the most valuable pitcher on the team last year.
Lehr is “servicable”? A 32 year old career minor leaguer with an ERA+ of 82 in only 148 major league innings? And one of Leake or Wood would certainly need to make the rotation if one of the big 2 are gone, and even then the pitching is likely to still be sub-par.
So you continue to miss my (and Slyde’s) point: Trading Harang to sign Tejada makes zero sense for this team. If you want to trade Harang to make the team better in the future, fine. But Tejada doesn’t even make the team better in ’10.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
by sidnancy on Dec 17, 2009 11:12 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
"I have faith in Cueto, Bailey, Lehr, and Maloney to be servicable. "
I choked on my breakfast when you got to Lehr and Maloney.
You are a man of great faith, and I hope that you are in the player personnel department for the Cubs.
Give me a lineup of 9 Ryan Freels, and I'll show you a team that can't pitch.
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2009 12:45 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i've given you statisital evidence that Maloney can be servicable
he had great k/9 and bb/9 in the minors. There is no reason to believe he won’t succeed.
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
by justin007000 on Dec 17, 2009 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
"can be servicable" and minor league success are hardly faith-inspiring notions to me.
Here’s a reason to be less than “faith”-ful:
Rotowire: (subscription)
“…lack of a fastball is enough to scare most scouts from predicting anything more than modest success at the major league level. The worry about him is that if his command isn’t perfect, he’ll give up a ton of home runs.”
In his small sample of 40+ MLB innings, he’s already given up 9 HR. in 25 AAA starts in 2008, he gave up 18 HR in 140 IP.
I want him to succeed, but I view it as folly to count on him as an important cog, especially in the context of replacing Harang.
Give me a lineup of 9 Ryan Freels, and I'll show you a team that can't pitch.
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2009 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
of course there is.
To make the claim annoys Justin.
And, as this board knows, there’s no end of fun in that.
:)
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
grr
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
by justin007000 on Dec 17, 2009 6:02 PM EST up reply actions
Acquiring Cruz or any other LF this offseason is barking up the wrong tree
I hate to harp on this but Heisey plays great defense and is 344/419/510 against lefties in his minor league career and hit them at an even higher rate in about 125 PAs between AAA and the Arizona Fall league this year. Maybe he’s hitting a minor league peak cuz he was 24 in AAA (recently turned 25), but a similar argument could be levied against Cruz — and he’s almost 30 to boot. Install Heisey in LF. He costs league minimun – and no prospects. Then you’ve still got Frazier with nutso splits vs. lefties being groomed in LF at AAA.
Heisey is a windfall for the Reds — they should see what they have without worrying about needing to insulate him to preserve his “prospect” trade status.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 17, 2009 11:17 AM EST up reply actions
I think Heisey is a fluke
and will be a 4th OF in the MLB.
I would sell high on him to get a proven bat in Cruz.
Hell we are still waiting on Jay Bruce to live up to his potential what makes you think someone not even ranked by BA to going to produce at an All-star level?
by Dave from Louisville on Dec 17, 2009 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure fluke is the word I would use to describe Heisey, nor proven is the word for Cruz
To me, Heisey looks exactly like the type of player whose skills are improving with practice.
Year Age Lev G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPSI don’t know if he’ll be better than Cruz, but the fact is that Cruz has one good season in the big leagues and he’s already 29. He’s far from a sure thing too.
2006 21 Rook 70 285 245 46 70 10 0 6 37 11 5 28 33 .286 .362 .400 .762
2007 22 A-A_adv 116 463 417 66 123 25 2 10 51 22 6 29 63 .295 .354 .436 .791
2008 23 A_adv-AA 136 597 515 88 150 37 8 9 61 32 2 60 84 .291 .375 .447 .822
2009 24 AA-AAA 134 585 516 91 162 35 3 22 77 21 3 48 77 .314 .379 .521 .900
4 Seasons 456 1930 1693 291 505 107 13 47 226 86 16 165 257 .298 .369 .460 .830
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
Huh?
Heisley is a “fluke”, but 29 year old Cruz, who couldn’t wrest a full-time job from Brandon Boggs just a year ago, is “proven”?
And we’re still waiting on Jay Bruce because he’s younger than every single name listed in this thread, except for El Nino.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
You think he's a fluke
but you offer no evidence to support this claim.
And my point wasn’t even that “he’s not a fluke,” it was that the Reds should find out what they have in LF – and now is the most opportune time to do so. Nelson Cruz is 5 years older and his sudden productiveness is no less suspect than Heisey’s. Cruz was tore his way through the minors the last couple of years, but in his age 26 through 28 seasons – and in the PCL. It’s not that Cruz isn’t good, it’s that he’s not worth the risk, considering what the Reds have on hand.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 17, 2009 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
A frequent gripe on the Reds
has been that they never go will the full-on youth movement. I think this season is the perfect – and possibly unavoidable – opportunity to do so. Realistically, they’re not going to compete for the division. The free agent market is pretty weak and they have very little to no payroll space to take on any contracts of consequence. Any trade they pursue has a good probability of being a salary dump or lateral move given the actual trade value of their biggest contracts and relative youth of the rest of their team. And they’ve got a surplus of talent at AAA.
They could trade Arroyo and get lucky with the return, but then they have to find a solid innings eating starter and probably get an MLB-ready-for-2011 SS in the bargain. I think the vast majority of possible trades could be put off til the deadline, when the Reds might have additional leverage, or after this season when the Reds have a full season of AAA performances to consider. They’ll also have the benefit of gauging another free agent market – one in which they’ll actually be spending.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 17, 2009 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
Wait until the chance they have 2013, RijoSabocasey
That team will be great.
What’s weird, is that most peopple seeing a team with a 26 raking 1B, a in the prime offensive/defensive wizard at second, a 24 year stud in right, a productive and defensively spectacular platoon in center, an aging, but extremely proficient 3B (doesn’t mean I liked that trade, but, when healthy, he’s good), and a rotation fronted with 2 200 IP veterans and 2 young budding stars would say a competent GM would be able to build around this core (as solid as anything west of philly and east of LA) to put a league average player at SS or LF and a reasonable bullpen together for a playoff run….
In Cincinnati, it means it’s time to re-build!
I’ll say it again, the window can be now, if management refuses to be chintzy and if Walt is competent. The first part is the most important part and it’s the part where the organization is going to fail again. Black-holes at catcher, LF, and an offensive black hole at SS will once again doom an otherwise promising core.
It reminds me of 86-88 when I kept looking at that home-grown roster and wondering why they could finish first… How can the front office and manager(?) screw up this core of Votto, Phillips, Bruce, Cueto, Harang, and Bailey? Just baffling
"if management refuses to be chintzy and if Walt is competent."
“if management refuses to be chintzy and if Walt is competent.”
i just thought that line needed to be repeated a few times.
"Everything you are doing is bad. I want you to know this."
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 17, 2009 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
Is saying it three times kinda like the
“No place like home” from the Wizard of Oz? Maybe if we just believe and say it three times while clicking our heels together, that these will happen.
Calmer than you are.
by 3 Fast 3 Furious on Dec 17, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
I think you're confusing my appeal for the Reds to play the young dudes
for a traditional nuke-and-rebuild. When you talk about the youthful “core” of the team, you’re talking about just that: a great young nucleus of talent and not yet a fully-realized playoff contender. There’s no point in playing at the margins to try and get someone like Nelson Cruz. when the risk-v-reward makes so little sense.
The Reds don’t have the flexibility to make an impact signing, or leverage to make an effective trade and I fail to see anything but a very small universe of deals that would benefit the team in 2011, while not hurting it in 2010 (or vice versa).
I just can’t see the Reds being just a Nelson Cruz away. I wish they were. But on top of that, an acquisition like Nelson Cruz fails the test on several levels. It fails to create sufficient surplus value given his relative age and skill sets to Frazier, Heisey et al. I think most trades the Reds might attempt this year would be judged similarly.
I agree with you that the Reds have a window – but to strain the metaphor, I think it’s just now opening. They’ve been working against a decade of bad contracts, bad trades and bad draft choices. Now that they have a cast of good, young, cost-controlled players – why not play them? As an ancillary benefit, a strong showing from Heisey, Frazier, END or Wood would raise more fan interest than a C-list signing or salary-dumping trade. Getting Reyes for Arroyo would be great, but highly implausible.
With the exception of trading for Maicer Izturis – admittedly a fairly low impact move – are there really any worthwhile moves that are so urgent to the team’s success that they have to be made this offseason?
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 17, 2009 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
I hate to break the news to you
This team is alot further away than you think.
They were second to last in the league by OPS+ and solidly middle of the road in ERA (and they won’t have Volquez this coming season).
Yea, we all expect Bruce to break out and having Taveras on the bench is addition by subtraction. However, Votto isn’t likely to hit as well as he did last year which will negate alot of that. And to put it in perspective, GABP is actually a pretty neutral run-scoring environment; Atlanta is slightly pitcher-friendly, they scored 62 more runs than the Reds, and still had an offense that was just under league-average.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
Big differences
We were hurt last year…..
If you give Votto more ABs
have Rolen the whole year
have Stubbs with 600 PAs
have Bruce for the whole year with improvement
have HAnigan and Ramon healthly the whole year
replace the carousel in LF with a 3.6 WAR player
and put some offense at SS
We have a pretty damn decent offense.
by Dave from Louisville on Dec 17, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
We show no signs of adding offense at SS.
And assuming that Ramon will be “healthy the whole year” is folly. Hasn’t he missed big chunks of 5 of the last 6 seasons while playing a physically brutal position? What would lead you to think that he would play more than his average over the last 6 seasons of 112 games, when he’s going to be 34 this year?
Give me a lineup of 9 Ryan Freels, and I'll show you a team that can't pitch.
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2009 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
hopefully he only gets 112 games
and HAnigan gets the rest, but that would mean sitting him with some frequency
by Dave from Louisville on Dec 17, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
You can stick you fingers in your ears
and say “La la la I can’t hear you” all you want.
- Votto isn’t going to hit like he did last year unless he magically gains a whole different skill set over the winter. A .375 BABIP isn’t sustainable.
- Rolen is a little better than league-average hitter who plays great defense; he’s played more than 115 games twice in the past 5 seasons.
- Stubbs is unlikely to hit over a full season like he did last year. None of his minor league stats support that level of defense.
- I, along with everyone else, expect Bruce to improve.
- Hanigan is who he is – a poor hitter who plays great defense; Hernandez is the same except for the defense part.
- Even if Cruz is a 3.6 WAR player, that’s not that much of an increase over what we had this past year. If you take the top 5 guys in innings (Gomes, Nix, Dickerson, Balentien, and McDonald), use their time in LF as a % of their total WAR and add them up, you come up with about 2.2 WAR last year from LF. 1.4 WAR is about 14 runs, and I I mentioned above it’s going to take at least 60 just to get to league-average. I’ll also add that the only two people other than you that would argue Cruz is really a 3.6 WAR player are his mom and his agent.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
Crap. Did it again
None of Stubbs minor league numbers support that level of offense.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
Hanigan isn't much of a hitter
Is that true? He doesn’t have much power, no, but he’s got a very respectable OBP.
by Brendanukkah on Dec 17, 2009 9:23 PM EST up reply actions
and good contact
2 outta 3 aint bad.
"Everything you are doing is bad. I want you to know this."
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 17, 2009 10:51 PM EST up reply actions
im not convinced of anything about his game
i am, however, convinced that you are a boner.
"Everything you are doing is bad. I want you to know this."
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 18, 2009 9:50 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
When don't you have a boner?
Eighty-five percent of the f*ckin' world is working. The other fifteen percent come out here. A f*ckin' playground for the cocks*ckers.
-Lee Elia on Cubs fans
by Farneyismycopilot on Dec 22, 2009 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
Well...
As he’s gotten more playing time, he’s hit worse; that’s telling. It’s also significant to me that his minor league numbers aren’t any better than his MLB numbers.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
considering there were reports of him being hurt the last month of the season
I’d say the difference between his prior numbers and 2009 (which is about 10 total bases, by the way), is fairly small.
I wouldn’t call Hanigan a poor hitter. As has been said, at least he gets on base. I’ll take someone who has that skill over pretty much the majority of their other options at catcher.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
Well...
I was replying to the original point that having “Hanigan and Ramon healthly the whole year” would contribute to having a “pretty damn decent offense.”
Reds’ catchers had an OPS of .671 last year, while Hanigan’s was .692. More time from him isn’t going to help things a whole lot.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
That's true
but they’re pretty average offensively for catchers, which isn’t saying much, but if the Reds could just be average offensively at their crappy positions, they’d be pretty good, no? (right now, there is no way they’ll be average offensively at SS)
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
Don't get me wrong
I think he’s a net positive, if he can hit like an average catcher and play the defense he does. I just don’t think having him healthy the whole year improves the offense that much which was the original contention.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
"Yes, sidnancy, there is a Santa Slyde"
Of course, it’s not quite the same.
"Santa Claus doesn't use Craigslist." -- 'tHan
Oops
I forgot to add: The average MLB catcher had an OPS of .715 last year. I also maintain he wore down last year – his OPS from June 26 til the end of August (when it was said he got hurt) was .542.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
c'mon now
you bust on me for selective endpointing all of the time. It’s quite possible that rather than “wearing down” he was “regressing to his mean.” I think he’s probably a 700 OPS type hitter, unless he lucks into a few extra HR or doubles. I don’t buy that he was wearing down. I just don’t think he’s going to post a .800+ OPS.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
Maybe
he’s a 700 OPS hitter over the course of a season because he wears down? I really don’t know, but he is playing a brutal position.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
my point of arguing this is
Someone will say, “I project Hanigan will be a .265/.365/.335 hitter, which isn’t bad for an everyday catcher” and the response will be, “No way he can do that everyday, look how much he wore down when he had everyday playing time last year.”
Maybe he does wear down and that’s why he’s a .700 OPS hitter, but that’s not what people argue. People argue that he can’t be an everyday catcher because he wears down. I say, he can’t be an everyday .800 OPS catcher, because he’s not an .800 OPS hitter over the course of a season. If that’s because he wears down, fine, but let’s not act like his wearing down means he can’t reach his .700 OPS projection.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
OK
But I think you’re arguing a couterpoint to a point I never made; certainly not one I was trying to make. I only said a whole year of Hanigan isn’t going to improve the offense from catcher because he hit barely better than the average Reds’ catcher last year.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
Let's just say my argument wasn't against yours
but one that I felt like needed to be made for others that are watching.
I understand where you are coming from, and am in agreement.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
Okay
1. Point taken
2. You’re fucking crazy
3. I think you mean offense, but it’s not Willy T
4. Me too
5. You forgot the Drew Sutton factor
6. You forgot 1 – his mom, his agent, me, and Fangraphs
All this being said, after reviewing all realistic trade proposals with the Dodgers…..I am changing my opinion. We need Harang more than a SS upgrade.
But we still need someone who has played in the MLB and hit more than 30 HRs to play LF.
by Dave from Louisville on Dec 17, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
Crazy?
About what? Over the past 5 years Rolen has averaged 111 games; over the past 3, his OPS+ is 106; considering 3B is a more offensive-driven position (over that time the MLB average for 3B was 102), that makes him even closer to league-average. So which of my two points is “fucking crazy”?
Second, what does Drew Stanton have to do with the Reds’ catchers?
Finally, yes, Cruz was a 3.6 WAR player last year. But considering that was based largely on a UZR jump of 9 runs (almost a full win) and that last year was his first as a full-time player at the age of 28 (again, one day away from being considered a 29 year old), I think it’s crazy to think he’ll repeat that.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
Never bet on the everything-goes-right scenario
Injuries played a role last year, but not nearly as much as the FO would like us to believe. Hernandez was replaced with a slightly more productive player. Votto didn’t miss a ton of time and compensated for it be likely unsustainable production. Possibly the most harmful injury, Volquez, won’t be mitigated this year since he’ll still be out. I agree that CF and 3B are going to be vastly improved – and Bruce could have a breakout year, but where does that get the Reds? Probably a couple of games above .500 unless you’re holding out the unrealistic hope for everyone to stay healthy and the young guys to all ripen at the same time.
Can we let the Nelson Cruz dream die? Would you give up two prospects in the Reds top ten – a reasonable asking price – for a 1-2 WAR improvement, at best?
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 17, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, Dave, you have profaned in church....
I’m in the back cheering for you, unless someone sees me. Then, I’m picking up the torch to help burn you too.
I dunno if he's a fluke or not, but I'm willing to throw him into the deep end of the pool to see if he can swim.
Give me a lineup of 9 Ryan Freels, and I'll show you a team that can't pitch.
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2009 5:34 PM EST up reply actions
And, I'm so geeked to trade him high that It wakes me up at night*
*not really, but they really should trade him high
Wait a second...
We want to acquire Cruz because he hits lefties? I got some bad news…
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
No one said that
I was just making the point that Heisey’s splits justify him being in the majors right now as at least a platoon player in LF – which might be the best way for the Reds to get the most value out of their ensemble cast of OFers.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 17, 2009 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
What I don't get about trading Harang
is that his, what I’ll call superficial value is at its all time lowest point. On the surface, he looks like he’s been a weak pitcher the last 2 seasons, but his peripherals are stronger than his W-L would indicate. I fear that if he is being shopped around, the Reds are going to be robbed in the deal.
I suppose teams are smarter than I am giving them credit for, but I would think that Arroyo would be much more attractive because of his “success” the last 2 seasons. If you are going to trade a pitcher, he would be the one I would trade. Though, to be honest, I wouldn’t trade either of them unless I was getting a killer return. As sidnancy said, the pitching is much thinner this year than last.
As I said on Twitter yesterday, I just want to be on the smart side of a trade for once.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
by Slyde on Dec 17, 2009 8:42 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
This is probably why we haven't dealt him yet.
What would you do?
by Dave from Louisville on Dec 17, 2009 8:54 AM EST up reply actions
I don't think I would clear payroll just to sign Cabrera or Tejada
though, if I had to choose, I’d definitely take Tejada over Cabrera. I don’t believe there is a benefit to removing Harang or Arroyo just to get a better shortstop. It’s a lateral move, at best, and actually I think the team might be worse unless Jocketty manages to get a prime prospect or an MLB quality player in the trade.
FWIW, this guy from the LA Times says the Reds are looking for one or two MLB players from the Dodgers for Harang. Thankfully, Juan Pierre has already been dealt. My guess is that it’s someone like Chin-Ling Hu, who looks like he’s a similar class of player as Janish. I’m just guessing on that return though.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
ANGRY RANT!
WTF is wrong with MLBtraderumors this is about the 5th Reds rumor that hasn’t made their site.
Where did you find this link?
Totally agree about Tejada, I would only sign O-Cab at about 1 year 3-5 million.
by Dave from Louisville on Dec 17, 2009 9:24 AM EST up reply actions
Daedalus put it on twitter
it was link to MLB Secrets
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
“You can have Harang. I’ll give you Harang for a Dodger Dog and a bag of peanuts.”
-Bigredmachine
Rec this man.
Start SEEing motorcycles
Why? Because he's stupid?
I only rec Mads when he’s stupid. All other commentators have to make a reasonable point before I rec them
you must rec the shit out of mads
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
by justin007000 on Dec 17, 2009 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
$5 please
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
by justin007000 on Dec 17, 2009 6:02 PM EST up reply actions
having grown up in LA
I went to Dodger Stadium almost every time the Reds came to town.
I can honestly say the only good things about the Dodgers are Dodger Dogs and the peanuts.
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
Hu's looking more like a one-year wonder
OPS’d 871 in ‘07 at AA-AAA but has been mediocre since. Still, some depth at SS wouldn’t be a bad idea. If Janish blows out his arm pitching innings 16-18 in some meaningless game, we’ll really be hurting.
I was totally hypothesizing on Hu
just looking at where the Dodgers have players to give up. I have no insight beyond that.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
On who?
No, I understand. I only brought up Hu because I was beating the drum a couple of years ago that we should pick him up.
I don't know ... third base.
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Dec 17, 2009 10:03 AM EST up reply actions
That's right. Hu.
Give me a lineup of 9 Ryan Freels, and I'll show you a team that can't pitch.
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2009 4:33 PM EST up reply actions
James McDonald, possibly?
RP last year, but potentially is a fine starter.
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Dec 17, 2009 10:33 AM EST up reply actions
if i remember correctly, everyone wanted to dump arroyo after last year
good thing we didn’t, huh? i predict big things from harang this year. he isn’t gonna give us a thing in value, and may cost us to remove him from the team …. why not keep him?
"Some times you get lucky; some times you get Willy Taveras." - Teh Fay
I didn't wanna dump Arroyo last year, and I think trading Harang right now is...dippy.
Give me a lineup of 9 Ryan Freels, and I'll show you a team that can't pitch.
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2009 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
This thread may as well serve as today's Reposter
- From the Fay link Dave provided: Did anyone get a Christmas card from the Reds? A Fay reader shared the team’s holiday poem sent to certain fans:
Twas winter in Reds Country and all through the clubhouse
Not a player was strirring, on the field or in the dugouts.
The jerseys were hung in the lockers with care,
In hopes that soon Opening Day would be there.
- Stan Kasten, the owner of the Nats, recently interviewed Adam Dunn on a DC sports radio station. It was not the lovefest you might expect from an owner seeking any kind of good publicity. Kasten lectured Dunn on the importance of learning to play first base. Dunn of course responded in kind: “I had a lot more fun over there than I thought I would. I like to talk; last year I had a lot of opportunities to talk with all the guys on first base. Hopefully it’s not as many opportunities to talk this year.” (HT to BBTF)
- Newly acquired Chris Burke was recently featured by the Louisville Courier Journal. Burke is from the area and attended game 2 of the ’90 NLCS.
- This is a week old, but I missed Hal’s post bout three untold Tony Perez stories. Perez certainly benefitted from hitting behind several superb hitters, but he delivered more than his share of big hits. My favorite bit from the article was the last AB of the ’76 WS, when the Yankees walked Joe Morgan to get to Perez: “I turned to the batboy and I said, ‘Put away all the bats but mine. This game is over.’” It soon was.
Why don't people like Adam Dunn?
Holy shit, he aced that question. I’ve never ever heard him give an answer that was angry or churlish, and usually there’s a lot of humor in what he says.
by Brendanukkah on Dec 17, 2009 10:15 AM EST up reply actions
Great links
Love the TP stories from Hal
Dunn is a genious.
by Dave from Louisville on Dec 17, 2009 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
the more and more he's gone the more and more i miss him
"Some times you get lucky; some times you get Willy Taveras." - Teh Fay
by joshuar9476 on Dec 17, 2009 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
Couldn't we have claimed him on waivers in August 2009?
Shouldn’t we have?
Give me a lineup of 9 Ryan Freels, and I'll show you a team that can't pitch.
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2009 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
What about Blake DeWitt?
Reds want a utility type…he can play 2B and 3B…not sure how good he is at SS though. I’d rather have DeWitt than the likes of Counsell or Jamey Carroll (thank God those two are off the table).
As for a second player, how about Scott Elbert? He’s a young lefty the Reds could put in their rotation. Former first-round pick who struck out more than a batter an inning in AA-AAA last season and pitched some out of the pen for the Dodgers.
Harang for Elbert and DeWitt wouldn’t be bad at all.
My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts
DeWitt and Elbert for Harang is one of the worst proposals I've ever seen on this site.
DeWitt is a scrub 3Bman (where we are already covered with Rolen and END) who “had a hugely disappointing season, going just 10-for-49 for the big club while spending the majority of the season in Triple-A. DeWitt’s performance for Triple-A Albuquerque was equally as disappointing with a .775 OPS.” He’s underwhelmed at every level.
Scott Elbert missed most of 2007 due to shoulder problems that ultimately required arthroscopic surgery. Since then, his command has been highly suspect, with a WHIP of around 1.4 since the surgery. In 29 career MLB games (all relief), he has an ERA of 6.66 and a WHIP of 1.519. He’s about to turn 25, which leaves little time for him to suddenly develop in a meaningful way.
So trading Harang at the moment of his lowest value, while peripheral stats show that he might do well this upcoming year, all for 2 players whom I don’t think will ever have meaningful MLB careers, AND without replacing Harang in the rotation is just a horrible idea. Just horrible.
Give me a lineup of 9 Ryan Freels, and I'll show you a team that can't pitch.
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2009 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
Not that horrible
DeWitt actually wasn’t terrible as a 22 year-old rookie for the Dodgers in 2008. OPS+ was 93…but he can take a walk and makes contact. He still has a shot at being the Dodgers second baseman this season. He is a bit scrubby, but I think he fits what Jocketty wants….hell Walt was wanting Carroll or Counsell.
Elbert was a No. 1 draft pick who did get hurt and was out for 2007 and a good chunk of 2008. His numbers at AA-AA this season were solid. 96 innings…..3.84 ERA, 44 walks, 125 strikeouts. Also, remember he’s a lefty….they often develop later.
Actually, Elbert’s increase in WHIP is due to allowing more hits, NOT an increased walk rate.
In 2006, his last full season before injury, he did this:
146 IP 97 hits 85 walks 173 Ks
In 2009
96 IP 93 hits 44 walks 125 Ks
44 walks in 96 innings is better than 85 in 146.
You may think this is horrible, but if the Reds want to get salary relief, this is the kind of deal they are probably looking at. You can also look at James McDonald, Chin Lung Hu or Ivan DeJesus. The Reds aren’t getting Matt Kemp or anything like that….Furcal is old and overpriced…..what do you want on their roster?
My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts
by cesarhernandez on Dec 17, 2009 8:00 PM EST up reply actions
Horrible AND disgusting.
DeWitt actually wasn’t terrible as a 22 year-old rookie for the Dodgers in 2008.
That’s one of the crappiest endorsements ever. What other platitudes await us, that he also didn’t completely stink at sacrifice bunting?
Elbert…remember he’s a lefty….they often develop later.
You base this on what? If you’ve got evidence of this, I’d be interested to read it.
Elbert’s increase in WHIP is due to allowing more hits, NOT an increased walk rate.
I never damned his walk rate, I noted his unattractive WHIP. So the increased hits could be from him either not fooling as many batters post-surgery OR from being “wild within the strike zone.” Either way, it’s a bad thing, and the guy hasn’t posted a respectable WHIP as a starter since 2006. At age 25, I’d say it’s even money as to whether he will ever crack the back of anyone’s rotation…the Dodgers won’t even start him.
I DO think this is horrible. When it comes to salary relief, it’s much better to hold onto Harang (until AT LEAST the ASB) than to trade him at his lowest value for marginal prospects without breakout potential. We might do better to take 2 or 3 randomly-selected Class A minor leaguers than to take on these 2 scrubs who don’t meet A SINGLE NEED that the Reds organization has.
Who do I like from the Dodgers INSTEAD of these? Since I don’t think it makes sense to trade him at all right now, I’m not gonna spend an hour reviewing their farm system to try to get an answer for you. But I wouldn’t bother looking at marginal prospects who occupy positions (3B and LHRP) that are already filled within the organization.
Give me a lineup of 9 Ryan Freels, and I'll show you a team that can't pitch.
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2009 8:38 PM EST up reply actions
I agree DeWitt isn't that great
But I do think you’re too quick to dismiss Scott Elbert. Before his surgery, it was a question of who was better….Billingsley or Elbert? Even post-surgery, Elbert was rated as the Dodgers No. 5 prospect heading into this season.
Oh and the Reds do need a left-handed starting pitcher.
And unless Harang has some awesome first half, I don’t see the return being greater for him 6 months from now.
What about Elbert, McDonald and Hu for Harang?
My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts
by cesarhernandez on Dec 17, 2009 8:59 PM EST up reply actions
Also Elbert's not about to turn 25
Most of next season he’ll be 24…turns 25 on August 13.
My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts
by cesarhernandez on Dec 17, 2009 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
No way
Harang just needs a bit more luck than he had last year. His peripherals were in line with his career averages – k/bb significantly better than average, but batted ball (hr/9, hr/fb, and especially BABIP) were much higher. Now we “know” that BABIP should be constant, or nearly so; the only thing in his other numbers that might indicate a loss of talent is his LD% was up. But the Hardball Times thinks that hr/fb is also tied to luck – the ratio should be consistant. All of that means is that Harang’s xFIP (fielding independent ERA, normalized for HR rate) was actually only slightly worse than his very good ‘05-’07, and better than his career average.
With a normal amount of luck, both in terms of run support and batted ball outcomes, Harang will look awfully good at the trade deadline.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
In the comments at redsminorleagues. com
Doug doesn’t see LA trading Elbert…..
“I doubt the Dodgers give him up. They are incredibly high on him.”
My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts
by cesarhernandez on Dec 17, 2009 9:09 PM EST up reply actions
Not high on him enough to start him.
He’d be our 4th-best LHRP.
I get it, you like Elbert. I’m obviously quite skeptical.
But this isn’t just about whether L-Bert is any damn good, it’s about whether it would be a good idea OR a good value to trade Harang for him plus some crappy third baseman who isn’t really good enough to start at AAA.
It’s a bad idea to trade Harang right now, and your proposal is just a gosh-awful return on value.
Give me a lineup of 9 Ryan Freels, and I'll show you a team that can't pitch.
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 18, 2009 12:38 AM EST up reply actions
Missed this yesterday because I was on the road
but Mark Healey of Baseball Digest is saying that the Mets and Reds are discussing a deal for Arroyo. He calls them “serious talks.” Also keeps repeating “Arroyo-plus”. I assume that means that the Reds would be sending another player in the deal, but he has no real insight beyond that.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
sorry, I linked the wrong thing
Here is the article, not his twitter page.
The other target the Mets are said to be "intently focused" on is Reds starter Bronson Arroyo, who is the subject of "serious talks" with the Mets concerning the right-hander and possibly two other players.
"If Mets just wanted (Bronson), the deal might have been done already," said one baseball official familiar with the talks. "Mets are also discussing one, maybe two other players with Cincinnati." He refused to disclose the names, but the early speculation in these parts is that the Mets may have a player under contract hat needs to be moved in order for the deal to be expanded.
"This one could take awhile," said the official. "Maybe even until pitchers and catchers report … there are a lot of moving parts in this thing."
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
Now this is intriguing. I could see a guy like Minaya overvaluing a guy like Arroyo,
especially after Arroyo threw a shutout against them this July. (of course, their lineup at the time was terrible)
Depending on who else the Reds sent over, I could see a number of people in the Mets org. that I’d be interested in. Don’t suppose Reyes could be part of this, eh?
If I hear the word 'perky' again, I'll puke
now we're talkin'
So, realistically, what would Minaya go for?
Arroyo + ? for Reyes
Assuming he’s healed, Reyes is good for maybe 5 WAR. Janish is good for about 1. So that’s a big upgrade.
I’m skeptical on Heisey, so I’d throw him in. Probably would take another really solid prospect though — like Alonso. Right?
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
Are the Reds actually as broke as we thought they were
but claimed they weren’t? Non-tendering Gomes and shopping Harang and Arroyo seemed unlikely after they signed Hernandez and claimed that payroll was staying level. Maybe whatever trade they make would be value-added but it’s also possible they looked at the books again and decided to quietly put Harang and Arroyo on the market for a salary dump and they’ve got trade talks on a slow-burn so that they’re finalized after the bulk of spring training / season ticket sales.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 17, 2009 10:15 AM EST up reply actions
Another great example of MLBTR dropping the ball
by Dave from Louisville on Dec 17, 2009 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
Bronson would be pretty good in that national park-sized stadium
He’d still be bad-royo on occasion, but he’d sure benefit by pitching at “home”
That's what I was thinking
Perfect place for a FB pitcher. Plus he’s “proved he can pitch on the big stage,” which will satisfy the talk radio crowd.
Arroyo is a Facebook pitcher?
Give me a lineup of 9 Ryan Freels, and I'll show you a team that can't pitch.
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2009 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think the threat of getting "fingertagged" by Bronson is going to help the site's popularity.
IAN! I'm on traain!
That just changed my status to "weirdsies"
by Brendanukkah on Dec 17, 2009 11:26 PM EST up reply actions
Awww, sharkfarts, I can't believe I missed this exchange.
I was busy celebrating Verdukia
If I hear the word 'perky' again, I'll puke
Am I the only one who thinks Harang is worth way more than Elbert, Hu, or DeWitt?
To me, he’s a reliable #2-3 starter on a reasonable contract. That should be worth more than a utility player or two.
Maybe I’m overvaluing a guy I really like, but if they trade him for a utility type guy AND pick up a chunk of his salary, I’m going to be very disappointed.
If I hear the word 'perky' again, I'll puke
I really like Elbert
He’s a pretty strong prospect…..should be ready for a shot in the rotation this season.
My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts
by cesarhernandez on Dec 17, 2009 10:08 AM EST up reply actions
Based on...???
Give me a lineup of 9 Ryan Freels, and I'll show you a team that can't pitch.
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2009 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
See above
I rebutted your trashing of the trade idea.
My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts
by cesarhernandez on Dec 17, 2009 8:01 PM EST up reply actions
When? For Hu?
Give me a lineup of 9 Ryan Freels, and I'll show you a team that can't pitch.
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2009 6:08 PM EST up reply actions
denied
I was going to make a Nguyen joke.
But did you know there are no players named Nguyen in the majors, minors, or NCAA? www.thebaseballcube.com comes up with Gabriel Nguyen Cohen at UCLA as the only match.
Baseball is racist.
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
Nguyen Cohen?
That’s weirder than Mehmet Manuel
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
Goes by Gabe.
In the Rays organization, I believe. Body like Adonis. Bat like Donald Duck.
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Dec 18, 2009 6:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Since Nguyen?
If it were me, I would have gone this route:
Then gone immediately for a check up.
"Santa Claus doesn't use Craigslist." -- 'tHan
I don't like the required cash outlay on Tejada nor Cabrera.
Cruz might be a late bloomer, but I’m not as high on him, either. You have to give something to get something, but it’s difficult for me to give up starting pitching unless the return is tremendous. Arroyo for Reyes from the Mets, well, that might interest me.
I’d deal Cordero for pure salary relief. Tough to deal a high-priced closer in this market, though. Baltimore is said to be looking, so maybe the O’s could be talked into taking CoCo.
Status quo doesn’t do much for winning this year, but if any money saved is put toward the draft, I like it a bit more.
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Dec 17, 2009 10:11 AM EST reply actions
Luis Gonzalez?
Adrian Gonzalez?
Alex Gonzalez?
Oh, Mike Gonzalez.
Can we stop calling every Gonzalez “Gonzo”?
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
To be fair, the Marlins started it
Speaking of Marlins with silly names, I half wanted to get Alfredo Amezaga just to call him “The Entree” on a regular basis.
by Brendanukkah on Dec 17, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
That's solid.
Give me a lineup of 9 Ryan Freels, and I'll show you a team that can't pitch.
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 18, 2009 12:40 AM EST up reply actions
Guess who just ordered from your favorite pizza place, Alfredo!
Wait. Alfredo’s Pizza Cafe or Pizza By Alfredo?
"We, as for me all seasons you are affected peculiarly in the edge of my seat and are happy concerning the fact that the Adam Dunn fan has been mixed up exactly." - Reynard-san
Alfredo Amazega is like a hot circle of garbage
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
Filling two of their biggest offseason needs, the Orioles on Wednesday agreed to a two-year deal with free-agent left-handed reliever Mike Gonzalez and a one-year pact with third baseman Garrett Atkins, according to industry sources.
Give me a lineup of 9 Ryan Freels, and I'll show you a team that can't pitch.
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2009 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
Ah, stupid trade season
someone at MLB Trade Rumors just suggested this:
NYM gets Arroyo, Phillips and Votto
CIN gets Ike Davis, Jon Niese, Castillo
People are stupid.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
I saw that, almost responded, then let laziness take over
but yes, that is just silly
If I hear the word 'perky' again, I'll puke
Fitting, though, that it was a Cubs fan who suggested it.
If I hear the word 'perky' again, I'll puke
by nycredsfan on Dec 17, 2009 11:17 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If I'm the Mets, I don't make that deal
unless the Reds sweeten it with Jay Bruce. I mean, common.
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Dec 17, 2009 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
i dont know
Arroyo is just waiting to fall apart, BP is a cancer, and Votto has psych issues. plus, Bruce is tremendously overrated. frankly, i dont think the Reds have enough talent in the entire system for that deal. i guess if we threw in Frazier (no position), Heisey (fluke), and Alonso (cant hit lefties), but even then it’s borderline. all the Reds players, top to bottom, are flawed in one way or another.
"Everything you are doing is bad. I want you to know this."
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 17, 2009 12:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
you're exactly right
the minor league prospect failure rate (MPFR) is currently lik 92% (and rising). I think you’d have to also attach Leake (inexperienced) and Yorman (too young) to really get the conversation started.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 17, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
Even then, it's barely even
Everyone knows prospects never amount to anything, just look at Joey Votto. He was never a touted prospect.
If I hear the word 'perky' again, I'll puke
Wait, whaaaaaaaaaaaat?
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 17, 2009 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
I’m always a little surprised more people don’t know this, I’ve seen it a few places. He lasted only 7 games there according to baseball cube.
Gruler and Chris Denorfia are the only other guys on that list i've even heard of
Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...
I've heard mention of the Nick Markakis guy a few times
man, how nice it would have been to have him in our outfield
Denorfia signed a minor league deal
with San Diego today.
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Dec 18, 2009 7:48 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Slap a mitt on this brother and call up Yonder or END.
Give me a lineup of 9 Ryan Freels, and I'll show you a team that can't pitch.
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 18, 2009 12:41 AM EST up reply actions
Trading harang for a a retread SS is idiocy.
Although walt has had a pretty impressive track record over the years..he just doesn’t have the money to make the kind of SS/LF acquisitions the the reds need without trading away a vital player (e.g. Harang) which then leaves a new hole…kind of a catch 22.
Chris was a guy that ... was heavily misunderstood.. the only guys that knew Chris and knew how good of a heart he had, how kind he was, how gentle he was, how soft of a heart he had, were the guys in our locker room, the guys who were close to him, his family." — Bengals quarterback Carson Palmer
Jocko and DM the GM
talked about Hardy. Supposedly the two teams weren’t a good fit. Seems like a perfect fit except for the fact they’re in the NL central together.
I would trade Harang to get Chris Henry back
no SS necessary
by jacob brumfield on Dec 17, 2009 6:12 PM EST reply actions
Me too..so would Harang
Chris was a guy that ... was heavily misunderstood.. the only guys that knew Chris and knew how good of a heart he had, how kind he was, how gentle he was, how soft of a heart he had, were the guys in our locker room, the guys who were close to him, his family." — Bengals quarterback Carson Palmer
the guy over at the dodger site thinks there was a harang for pierre deal that fell through
no joke.
Now THAT would be disgusting
Juan Pierre…fail
My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts
by cesarhernandez on Dec 17, 2009 8:02 PM EST up reply actions
Some Chicago radio talkers
and most of the fans that were calling in were kind of psyched about getting him. As usual there was a drop of Ozzie talking to him on the phone that was humorous.
Most Chicago fans I know, which is everyone here, is pissed about getting Pierre.
They want Pods back, but Kenny Williams knows he got him off the scrap heap and will again if he ever needs him.
I would have quit the Reds if that happened
I can’t think of a single way that would work out for this club, trading a SP for a CP/WT type guy is way worse than either of those contracts
Conflicting reports
Jayson Stark sez teams have gone past “the kicking the tires stage” and are working on something…nothing soon, tho.
Yahoo’s Tim Brown sez a source from one of the teams said a Harang deal is “not happening.”
My fantasy football team this year? Lippincott's Shorts
True Blue LA site
think Hu and Sherrill are probably amoung the desired while Doug thinks James McDonald would be a target.
http://www.truebluela.com/2009/12/17/1205502/aaron-harang-dodger-rumor#comments
http://redsminorleagues.com/2009/12/17/thursday-winter-league-updates-and-notes/
by Dave from Louisville on Dec 17, 2009 8:45 PM EST reply actions
Throwing around trade ideas on MLBTR
@Monroe says
Reds get: Jamie McCourt
Dodgers get: Marge Schott’s corpse
WTF
by Dave from Louisville on Dec 17, 2009 9:06 PM EST reply actions
just observations
A couple of thoughts come to mind.
First off, Baker’s probably near the end of his tenure. A new manager will probably want to see somebody else, both in center field and in the No. 2 hole in the order. Gawd, Eddie Milner is better than we had there last year.
Second, this team needs to win 2 more games a month to compete for the NL-C. Crap, just playing a little better with what they have is enough.
We could use a better hitting coach. Wait, that’s three things. No, forget that part.
ugh
I’m not against trading Harang, but I just know the Reds are going to get crap for him, and probably end up paying way too much of his salary after he’s gone.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
The Reds would have to eat at least half I'd think
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
Doug Gray says he heard a rumor that in order to get anything more than just Hu the Reds would have to eat 8 mil of his salary
to me that’s ridiculous and makes me really really hope it doesn’t happen. (because I totally believe that’s possible with this FO)
If I hear the word 'perky' again, I'll puke
I'm convinced
we’ll trade Harang to the Dodgers for Hu cares and a jelly donut, Harang will win the Cy Young for the blue, and Janish will beat out the new guy for the SS job anyway.
If we’re really going after Hu, what does that say about Cozart? Is he really that far away that we need ANOTHER light hitting, replacement level player for 1 measley season?
I just hope we find a gem of a young pitcher in this entire mess. Also, I keep coming back to the idea that Nick Masset may get trotted out to be a starter again, especially the more I hear about picking up George Sherrill….
Goodroyo/Cueto/Bailey/Masset/Owings (Maloney?)…eeek.
Set the gearshift to the high gear of your soul.
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Dec 18, 2009 12:09 PM EST reply actions
mmmm jelly donuts
Happy Hanukkah!
"Everything you are doing is bad. I want you to know this."
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 18, 2009 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
Word is the Cubs are trading Milton Bradley for Carlos Silva
their dumb.
And Jack Z. is a witch and must be burned. Dude is making some killer moves this off-season (on paper at least).
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
I dunno...
This isn’t Strat-o-matic, and Bradley seems to go out of his way to piss off every single animate object he encounters. Silva ain’t much, but maybe that’s what it took for the Cubs to get Bradley the hell out of town.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
Silva is dead weight
irreversible dead weight. Bradley certainly has his problems, but at least he’s productive. Bradley will likely be a good player even if he hijacks a city bus. Silva just sucks, plain and simple.
and you have to like the chances of Jr showing Bradley what it is.
"Everything you are doing is bad. I want you to know this."
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 18, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
Don't count on it
Bradley will be 32 in April; despite being productive (career OPS+ of 115), Seattle will be his 7th MLB team in 11 seasons.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
granted
but he’s still far more likely to be productive than Silva. Silva is just not a good baseball player.
and it looks like the M’s are pitching in 9 mil. that certainly changes the deal a good bit, but i still give the M’s the edge.
"Everything you are doing is bad. I want you to know this."
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 18, 2009 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
I think Silva’s contract is bigger by a few million. If they viewed him as worthless, then they’re getting Bradley for 9 million minus the difference in contracts. Maybe he’ll go psycho, but it could be a great deal.
Fangraphs has a good post about this
Basically, Silva makes 4 mil more than Bradley, so the Ms are paying 5 mil extra for Bradley.
If you figure Silva was a completely sunk cost and might’ve been cut anyway, they basically just got Bradley on a 2yr/5 million contract…..not bad.
The Cubs, meanwhile, just took on a sunk cost for the sake of saving 5 mil and getting out of Bradley’s contract.
If I hear the word 'perky' again, I'll puke
Or
The Cubs were going to release Bradley and found a way to save $5M of his contract.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
Yeah, but that basically means they only saved 5 mil and couldn't get ANY value in return
that’s pretty weak.
If I hear the word 'perky' again, I'll puke
So's Bradley's reputation and ability to stay in the lineup.
Give me a lineup of 9 Ryan Freels, and I'll show you a team that can't pitch.
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 18, 2009 8:36 PM EST up reply actions
Bradley needs to be in the AL
If he can come close to hitting like he did in Texas, great deal for Seattle.
Interesting..
Tell me more…
Give me a lineup of 9 Ryan Freels, and I'll show you a team that can't pitch.
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 18, 2009 8:38 PM EST up reply actions
Good call on the Jr thing
would love to see that.
And even thought the Central has a chance of being tough this year, and the Reds have done little to improve, it’s good to see that, so far, the Cubs are getting worse.
If I hear the word 'perky' again, I'll puke
So who else is excited for Bruce to hit a Silva meatball onto Waveland?
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
by Cy Schourek on Dec 18, 2009 2:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
1-4, 3K's, 2 run HR
…that’s my Bruce!!
Set the gearshift to the high gear of your soul.
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Dec 18, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
you might be surprised to learn
that Joey Votto had twice as many 3 K games last season as Bruce. Votto had 8 to Bruce’s 4.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
Votto
also had a higher K/AB % than Bruce did too.
Do you have any #‘s on overall swings and misses for them? Can’t seem to find that right now. Interesting stuff.
Set the gearshift to the high gear of your soul.
by Kevin Mitchell is Batman on Dec 18, 2009 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
Try here
On BBRef, S/Str is swing-and-a-miss strikes. Bruce took more strikes, Votto swung and missed more.
Also, from here you can see that they swung at a similar number of pitches in the zone, but Bruce swung more out of the zone. Votto also made slightly more contact (i.e. he hit more foul balls).
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
That's surprising.
Not that Votto missed more, but that Bruce took more strikes.
If I hear the word 'perky' again, I'll puke
Votto is the one with the Wrigley charm
83 PAs, 7 HRs, 1.041 OPS.
"Everything you are doing is bad. I want you to know this."
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 18, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions
Harang talks all but dead
Dodgers General Manager Ned Colletti on talks with Cincinnati: “That’s all but dead.”
Yesterday we heard the two teams were exploring an Aaron Harang trade.
Give me a lineup of 9 Ryan Freels, and I'll show you a team that can't pitch.
Great, so he's getting traded this weekend
by ken on Dec 18, 2009 8:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Fay says
a Reds official saying there’s nothing to the Harang or Arroyo talks
Can’t say I’m all that sad about either, but the Arroyo thing does interest me.
If I hear the word 'perky' again, I'll puke
over at the Mets SBN blog
they were generally positive about the idea – some were downright excited.
Walt is out of the country till 12/31?
He must be finishing the Eri Yoshida negotiations! Maybe Yoshida’s agent will mistake Walt for the “annual gift man.”
The anal gift man...that's gross!
Chris was a guy that ... was heavily misunderstood.. the only guys that knew Chris and knew how good of a heart he had, how kind he was, how gentle he was, how soft of a heart he had, were the guys in our locker room, the guys who were close to him, his family." — Bengals quarterback Carson Palmer
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