Will the Hall come a knockin' for Larkin?
JinAZ explained why Barry Larkin should be elected into the Hall of Fame, but the "will" or "when" is a separate question. Larkin of course appears on the ballot for the first time this year and has 15 years to gain the requisite 75% of the BBWAA's eligible votes in order to avoid the "he'll have to buy a ticket to get in!" or "hall of very good" quips from sportswriters. An eligible voter has at least 10 years in the BBWAA, which unfortunately for Larkin leaves sabermetrically-inclined voters like Rob Neyer, Keith Law, and Will Carroll on the sidelines for now. Ballots are due on December 31, and the results will be published on January 6.
Judging the voting patterns of the electoriate and predicting elections is more art than science. Bill James and scores of others have demonstrated that the BBWAA does not treat the Hall of Fame like a meritocracy and (inconsistently) considers plenty of other factors, including team success, run scoring environment, popularity with the press, post-playing career, and most recently, "fear." Adding to the unpredictability is the relatively small number of candidates considered over a long period of time. At shortstop, the writers have only elected 10 shortstops into the Hall (the Veterans Committee has elected another 12). Most of the 10 were elected decades ago before most of today's voters became eligible, which makes it harder to judge the current electorate (only Cal Ripken, Robin Yount, and Ozzie Smith have been elected in the last 25 years). Additionally, a few of those 10 played a significant amount of time at other positions (Banks and Yount played only about half of their games at short, while Rabbit Maranville played about 20% of his games at second).
With all that said, I feel relatively confident that Larkin will be enshrined after waiting a few years because most writers and fans recognize that Larkin was a great player for a long stretch of time. The injuries and perhaps playing in a small market will hold Larkin back to some degree, but several measurements and other considerations point to eventual inlusion for Larkin:
- The 12 all-star games (would've been 13 but he was robbed in '92) is a great proxy for how well Larkin was perceived in his day. While there are flaws with the all-star selection process, there's no denying that a player picked to that many all-star teams was widely recognized as a great player for a long period of time. In fact, according to a Reds' PR intern (former intern now), no eligible player picked for at least 12 National League all-star teams has failed to make the HOF.
- Two of Bill James' HOF predictive tools charaterize Larkin as a strong but not an automatic candidate. Bill James' HOF Monitor awards points for in-season and career milestones (such as batting .300) while also counting AS game appearances and MVPs and awarding a positional adjustment. Larkin scores a 118. A 100 is considered a "good possibility " at the Hall while 130 is a "virtual cinch." Under the HOF Standards test (which is similar to the Monitor but takes out AS game appearances and MVP awards), Larkin scores a 47 compared to the average HOFer score of 50.
Larkin did not lead the league in any significant statistical categories and therefore does not have a "black ink" score. He also does not fare well under the "gray ink" standard, which gauges how often a player appeared in the top 10 league leaderboards. But I'm not sure how great a tool gray ink is if it penalizes more recent players for playing in a larger league. Seems to me that it's easier to appear in the top 10 when there are 8 rather than 16 teams in the league.
- Larkin also has a mildly compelling narrative as he played for his hometown team his whole career, winning a ring and an MVP along the way. I say "mildly" because two of the most recent shortstop inductees were given extra credit for intangibles (Ripken with The Streak; Ozzie with the highlights and backflips).
In sum, Larkin is a strong candidate for enshrinement. He is probably not, however, a "first ballot" Hall of Famer to enough voters to get him in this year. The lost time to injuries will stick out on his resume. He had only seven seasons of 140+ games, though he should get credit for playing most of the two strike years. Larkin also misses the mark on some key milestones. He was not quite a .300 hitter (career .295 with a .371 OBP). Nor did he reach 2,500 hits (finished with 2,340). He also falls just shy of 1,000 RBIs and 200 HRs. While he has terrific totals for a shortstop (10th in hits in a SS list that includes Banks and Yount; top 6 in doubles, stolen bases, and HRs), many voters do not properly adjust offensive expectations for position.
Another retired shortstop who also rates well in the all-time shortstop lists is Alan Trammell, and the lack of BBWAA support for him (17.4% of the vote last year) gives us some pause. But I think that there are enough crucial differences in their candidacies. For one, Larkin was a better player (815 vs. 767 in OPS, big SB advantage). More importantly he was perceived as such and played in twice as many AS games (though in fairness Trammell's career almost perfectly coincided with Ripken's). Secondly, Larkin is a much more visible candidate due to his on-camera job with the MLB Network. All those demonstrations on the proper way to tag a runner out at second or discussions about his playing career reinforces Larkin's stardom. Trammell, on the other hand, is known for managing the 2003 Tigers team that went 43-119.
My hope is that Larkin's candidacy will resemble Ryne Sandberg's more than Trammell's. Sandberg also played an up-the-middle position well (9 GGs at 2B) for a long period of time, and was recognized as a great player (10 AS games, 1 MVP). Offensively he's pretty similar to Larkin, with comparable OPS+, SB, and games. Sandberg reached 76% of the vote in 2005, his third year on the ballot. He scored 49% in his first year. I'm hoping that Larkin nets at least 40% and closer to half of the ballot this year. If that's the case, he should gain admittance around his third or fourth year.
I'm keeping a very unofficial tally to see where the electorate is headed on Larkin. Votes are not published but writers are free to reveal their ballots and reasoning. Several non-procrastinators have already turned their ballots in and published their findings. So far Larkin has four "yes" votes, three "no" votes, and one "maybe." Feel free to update my tally if you see a ballot that's not listed. Try to make sure that it is from an eligible voter - if you're unsure, check the Biz of Baseball's badge list for members inducted no later than 2000.
Some of the votes so far:
- Bill Madden of the NY Daily News votes Yes. Good to see Larkin get a vote from a non-Midwest writer. Madden also votes for Alomar, Dawson, Edgar Martinez, Jack Morris, and Bert Blyleven. Swap Raines for Morris and you'd have my ballot.
- Ed Price of MLB Fanhouse votes No. He argues that in Larkin's best 10-year stretch he was only 34th in OPS+, which is equivalent to Jay Buhner or Ray Lankford. Not only does this ignore baserunning and undervalues Larkin's OBP, but more importantly this completely ignores the positional context. Jay Buhner and Ray Lankford didn't play a gold glove shortstop. Strangely, Price seems to account for this earlier in the article in articulating his standard: "Was he a dominant player at his position in his era?"
So what's your prediction?
1 recs |
32 comments
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Comments
Of course to me it is sad that Larkin be admitted before Concepion
But such is life.
There is an overriding misconception that Clutch is an overriding misconception.
Read the Greatest Reds Rankings
It is as it should be.
by Brendanukkah on Dec 16, 2009 9:47 AM EST up reply actions
Rankings be damned - Davy as a SS should be in the HOF
There is an overriding misconception that Clutch is an overriding misconception.
More Barry Larkin HOF Votes...
I’ve been running the HOF ballot gizmo over here at Baseball Primer for a number of years…so here’s a few you missed.
Charley Walters (Pioneer Press) – Yes
Fred Klein (retired from WSJ) – Yes.
Bob Markus (retired from Chi. Tribune) – No
Jim Caple (ESPN) – Yes
Jeff Blair (Globe Mail) – No
Carter Gaddis (CBS Football) – No
Hal McCoy (Dayton) – Yes (natch)
I have another dozen or so of partials but my total as of now shows…
15 – Alomar
15 – Blyleven
13 – Dawson
12 – J.Morris
11 – Larkin
11 – E. Martinez
11 – McGwire
One of two things might happen
If that list holds up, either, (1) it’ll be a really big HOF class because the voters see lots of worthy players or (2) no one will get in because the voters see them as interchangeable.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
Craptacular
Dawson and Morris both above Larkin?
The writers don’t seem to care about character as much as they claim. Alomar is a face-spitter and McGwire is a PED-user, but if this list is representative they’re both at least as likely to get in the Hall as Larkin, despite Larkin’s better character profile — and not to mention his higher lifetime WAR.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 16, 2009 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
Plenty of writers care about the spitting and PEDs
I doubt Alomar or McGwire get in this year even though they were thought of as HOFers in their day. There are about 500 voters, so the sample sizes we’re looking at now are incredibly small.
I expect you're right
though I think this sample, by dumb luck or no, probably reflects what the writers think of Dawson and Morris vs. Larkin.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 16, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
Good, I was wondering if Hal still got his Hall of Fame vote
Also, it’s good that a guy from CBS Football is voting for the baseball hall of fame. And Bob Markus? You just jealous!
by Brendanukkah on Dec 16, 2009 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
First ballot
I think Larkin has a good chance to make it this year. His top competition for votes:
Roberto Alomar: Spit on an umpire, which a lot of voters will dock him for. Statistically, he’s probably as deserving as Larkin. Some now question his defensive abilities.
Bert Blyleven: Deserving, but his "the fucking voters don’t know how good I was" act is really getting old and may start to hurt him.
Andre Dawson: On the one hand, he probably should be in; on the other hand, he wasn’t really any better of a hitter over the course of his career than Larkin.
Edgar Martinez: As mostly a DH, there will be lots of resistance to his election.
Mark McGwire: Should be in, but steroids (even though he never tested positive) and playing time (he was hurt even more than Larkin, and ended up with 1400 fewer PA) will hurt him.
Jack Morris: Blyleven’s attitude, but has no room to talk. He was a league-average pitcher.
Dale Murphy: Should get more love than he does, but still borderline.
Dave Parker: Five great years from ’77-79 with his ’85 season in Cinci were very good; his other 13 seasons were pretty average.
Tim Raines: There is no good reason he isn’t in.
Alan Trammell: The guy everyone compares Lark to. However, even though he played in 113 fewerr games, Larkin had more runs, doubles, triples, HRs, walks, and a lot more SB; all of his rate stats (ave/obp/slg) were higher, as was his OPS+. Interestingly, Larkin was seen as "fragile" while Trammell wasn’t; yet it took Trammell another full season to play that 113 more games.
In my mind, there is one player who should be in before Larkin, and that’s Raines; the guys I think have as strong of a case as Larkin (Blyleven, Alomar, McGwire) have/will struggle for votes for various reasons.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
I don't understand the statistical underpinnings hardly at all
but it seems odd that Raines and Larkin as so disparately ranked on historical WAR vs. win shares.
Raines is a staggering 39th alltime in win shares for position players vs. Larkin’s 87th, while Larkin ranks 59th alltime in Sean Smith’s WAR vs. Raines at 81. They both are more than deserving, but I think it turns on how much relative value you place on baserunning skill vs. defense vs. power-hitting. I would think character points would favor Larkin – and put him over the top – but I think this is something that’s more lip service than anything else on the part of the BWAA.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 16, 2009 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
WAR does a better job of adjusting for position
and the defensive metrics used in WAR are more advanced, though the accuracy jury is still out. I would bet they are more accurate, but no guarantee. Also, WAR includes the concept of replacement level, which Win Shares doesn’t consider, so that might have some effect on it.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
Ballot strength is a good point
Like you say, there are no slam dunks inductees this year. Dawson was at 67% last year, so he’s got a shot. Blyleven was at 62% for the past two years and may have plateaued. We’ll see.
From my googling there seem to be a lot more articles about Alomar and Martinez because they each have serious strikes against them. I still think too many writers distinguish “first ballot” inductees versus the others, which will keep Larkin out this year. It’s possible nobody makes it for this class.
It seems like the writers are wising up quicker with respect to the seasonal awards
than the Hall induction. It would be criminal if Larkin has to wait more than a year or two. I think the black ink category hurts him the most, though Ozzie Smith certainly wasn’t penalized for only having trace amounts of gay ink on his resume. The Hall induction, like the gold glove awards Larkin missed out on, might end up another case of Barry having Ozzie’s halo effect blotting him out for a while. Maybe if he’d risked breaking his pelvis by doing some aerials on field, Barry would be a first-ballot HOFer. Barry was in the same class defensively at SS, while being much better offensively and better on some less empirical things like staying with the same franchise. Barry just never had a nickname or a gimmick. I like Ozzie Smith, but the double standard would be stark if Larkin struggles to get into the Hall.
On the other hand, I think Barry’s reputation as a good guy – and his Roberto Clemente Award – helps him. Or at least it should. He’s squeaky clean company man who spent his whole career in his home town and has never been suspected of drug use, recreational (Raines) or performance enhancing (McGwire). You’d have to think the Hall is looking for a class act to elect – and someone without all the bluster and egotism of a Ricky Henderson.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 16, 2009 10:23 AM EST reply actions
But,
Do we really think the BBWAA is that coherent in its process? Seems like a bunch of random guys with quite different opinions about what is a Hall-worthy quality and what is not.
Wear something sexy to my funeral.
by Pops Daniels on Dec 16, 2009 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
That's part of it
But I think there is a shift towards more objective analysis. We saw it this year with the Cy Youngs, and as more of the younger writers cross the 10-year BBWAA threshhold I think we’ll starter to see more objective HOF votes.
Right
I think it’s possible some of the guys that helped Lincecum and Greinke get Cy Youngs could but Blyleven over the top in the next three years as the graduate to HOF voters.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 16, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
Baseball writers have bigger egos than the players
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
Prediction?
PAIN, at least for a few years. Than he gets in.
TWSS
Wear something sexy to my funeral.
by Pops Daniels on Dec 16, 2009 2:59 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
my hall of fame unofficial tally
roberto alomar, andre dawson and bert bleyleven has a good chance to make it this year.Some of the votes so far:
Earl Bloom (10 ballot): Blyleven, Dawson, Raines, Smith, Alomar, Martinez, Larkin, McGwire, Parker, H Baines.
Bruce Jenkins (7 ballot): Alomar, Larkin, Martinez, Morris, McGwire, Parker, Mattingly.
Jim Caple (10 ballot): Alomar, Martinez, Larkin, McGriff, Blyleven, Dawson, McGwire, Morris, Raines, Trammell.
Jeff Blair (3): Alomar, Raines, McGwire.
Carl Steward (7): Alomar, Morris, McGwire, Blyleven, Raines, Dawson, Smith.
Bill Madden (6): Alomar, Larkin, Dawson, Blyleven, Martinez, Morris.
Phil Arvia (8): Alomar, H. Baines, Blyleven, Dawson, Larkin, Martinez, Morris, Smith.
Frederick Klein (8): Blyleven, Dawson, Morris, Smith, Trammell, Alomar, Larkin, Martinez.
Robert Markus (5): McGwire, Smith, Dawson, Blyleven, Alomar.
Jeff Schultz (6): Dawson, McGriff, Murphy, Blyleven, Morris, Parker.
Charley Walters (7): Morris, Blyleven, Alomar, Larkin, Martinez, Raines, Trammell.
Full Ballot: 11
10- Alomar
9- Blyleven
8- Dawson
8- Morris
7-Martinez
7- Larkin
6- McGwire
5-Raines
5-Smith
new ballot- Bob Sansevere
Bob Sansevere (8): Blyleven, Dawson, Morris, Smith, McGriff, Alomar, Larkin, Martinez.
Larkin new vote
two new ballot: Coughlin and McClelland
Dan Coughlin (6): Alomar, Baines, Blyleven, Dawson, Parker, Smith.
Sean McClelland (7): Dawson, Blyleven, Morris, McGwire, Larkin, Alomar, Smith
larkin new vote
The Lynn Henning HOF Ballot
Lynn Henning (7): Alomar, Martinez, Larkin, Dawson, Blyleven, Raines, Trammell.
Larkin new Vote
The Mike Shalin HOF Ballot
Mike Shalin (10): Alomar, Martinez, Larkin, Dawson, Blyleven, Morris, Parker, Mattingly, Trammell, Murphy.
The Charles "Chaz" Scoggins HOF Ballot
Charles “Chaz” Scoggins (7): Alomar, McGwire, Raines, Smith, Dawson, Blyleven, Murphy.
The Dan Graziano HOF Ballot
Dan Graziano (5): Alomar, Raines, Morris, Larkin, Blyleven
The Hal McCoy HOF Ballot
Hal McCoy (5): Dawson, Martinez, Smith, Larkin, Blyleven
The Tom Gage HOF Ballot
Tom Gage (5): Trammell, Morris, Dawson, Blyleven,Smith.

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