The Greatest Reds: #5
5. Frank Robinson
| Played as Red | Primary Position | Career Rank | Peak Rank | Prime Rank |
| 1956-1965 | LF, RF, 1B | 4 | 3 | 3 |
| Percent Breakdown of Value | Best Season | Best player on Reds | ||
| Hit | Field | Pitch | 1962 | 1956, 1957, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1964 |
| 88% | 12% | 0% | ||
| Awards/Honors as a Red | Leading the League | On the Reds Leaderboard | ||
| Inducted to Hall of Fame – 1982 Most Valuable Player – 1961 Rookie of Year – 1956 Gold Glove – 1958 All Star – 1956, 1957, 1959 (2), 1961 (2), 1962, 1965 |
Runs Scored – 1956, 1962 Hit By Pitch – 1956, 1959, 1960, 1962, 1963, 1965 OPS+ – 1960, 1961, 1962 OPS – 1960, 1961, 1962 Slugging Percentage – 1960, 1961, 1962 Intentional Walks – 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964 Sacrifice Flies – 1961 Extra Base Hits – 1962 On Base Percentage – 1962 Doubles – 1962 |
-1st in career OPS+ |
||
Signed as a 17 year old out of high school, Robinson was an instant star, destroying three levels of minor league ball in his first three professional seasons, before being given the full-time left field job in 1956, at age 20. Robinson—tying a rookie record in the process—hit 38 home runs, good for 2nd in the NL, and his 6th place OPS+ finish (142) gave evidence to Robinson being more than your basic slugger. In fact, Robinson’s career was partly defined by his unusual ability to be hit by a pitch, due to his habit of crowding the plate. For his inaugural efforts, Robinson was unanimously selected as Rookie of the Year, and he even received significant support for the overall MVP, finishing 7th. Robinson hit 60 more dingers over the next two years, won a Gold Glove award in left field, and kept receiving consistent down-ballot MVP support, despite his decreased production compared to his rookie year.
Defensively, Robinson was flexible, but perhaps would have been better served not to be. He was a good fielder in LF (with the stats perhaps swayed by Crosley Field’s smallish left-field area), but he was—at various points in his career—also inserted in center field, right field, first base, and third base. At none of those positions was he anything better than mediocre, leading to an assumption that neither his range nor his arm nor his glove were especially gifted. However, despite his Gold Glove award in 1958, Robinson was moved to first base the next year and curiously enough, his hitting exploded to a new level with new career highs in RBI, steals, walks, and OPS/OPS+. The next three years, mainly split between first base and right field, defined an obvious peak for Robinson, concurrent with an impressive decrease in strikeouts (never whiffing more than 67 times over this 3-year stretch). From 1960-62, Robinson had three straight years of leading the NL in OPS and OPS+ (among contemporaries such as Mays, Aaron, and Clemente), with a cumulative stat line of 323/411/611 (168 OPS+). 1962 was particularly peakish: 51 doubles, 39 homers, 134 runs scored, 136 RBI, 342/421/624 (173 OPS+). While not quite to that level, the following three years were mighty fine as well.
Robinson was now 30 years old, with ten full seasons with the Reds. His stats almost exactly worked out to 150 games per year, and here was his average season in Cincy: 303/389/554 (150 OPS+), 104 runs, 101 RBI, 32 doubles, 32 home runs, 16 steals, 70 walks, 79 strikeouts. There’s a caveat that Robinson was custom-built to play in Crosley Field (his career OPS in Crosley was 1002, as compared to his overall Reds OPS of 943), but still—those numbers ain’t bad. Which brings us to the obvious Robinson narrative: the trade. In December, 1965, Robinson was traded to the Baltimore Orioles for Jack Baldschun, Milt Pappas, and Dick Simpson. Robinson promptly had the best season of his career with 49 home runs and a 198 OPS+ while the Reds fell from an 89-win team to a 76-win squad. Befitting the curious circle of life, Tony Perez benefitted the most from Robinson’s departure, but he had a poor 1966 season, and the Reds had no one to replace Robby’s bat. Was the trade defensible? No one could have predicted Robinson’s post-age-30 resurgence…he had up to that point followed a typical aging pattern. The problem was certainly with the return: Pappas was younger, but had already racked up 1600 innings, and while Simpson was a nominally promising outfielder, the prior season he struck out 148 times in AAA-ball, rarely an indicator of future success. As fate would have it, Robinson re-surfaced in 1970 to help beat the Reds in the World Series. He hit for a 151 OPS+ that year at age 34, which would have certainly earned him a spot in the lineup, presumably replacing Lee May at first base. Given May’s status as the linchpin to the Joe Morgan trade, that’s a very interesting alternate reality scenario…
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I say
4.Bench 3.Larkin 2. Morgan 1. Rose
There is an overriding misconception that Clutch is an overriding misconception.
Huh.
Morgan’s going to get creamed in “career” value; he has 3700 fewer PA than Bench, over 4000 fewer than Larkin, and about a third of Rose’s. I could see 4. Morgan, 3. Larkin, 2. Bench, and 1. Rose.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
My thoughts Reds Greatest 5 well 6!!
1. Bench greatest athis position of all-time. Enough said,
2. Rose his name means baseball to alot of us,
3. Morgan greatestat his position of all-time.
4. Robinsonnumbers are unmatched Redsgreates outfielder.
5. Larkin solid for along time and with a ton of class.
6. Perez my personal favorite since 1970, I had to add him
Fuck Bench...he was a great player but was he better than Gabby Hartnett?
There is an overriding misconception that Clutch is an overriding misconception.
During the period proir Robby's trade he had become more outspoken about numerous issues
Racism, the Feudal state of baseball, lack of black coaches and managers…and he had the audacity of speaking articulately and did not sugar coat his positions. This ‘uppity Negro’ syndrome was probably more than 50% of the reason that Frank Robinson was traded. I remember being astonished and angry that our best hitter was ‘poof’ gone and for what? Meanwhile my Dad and a lot of his friends, while admitting that Robby was a hell of a player, thought he was a trouble maker and and a cancer on the team. I remember when Robinson won the triple crown gloating to Dad and his best friend, to Dad;s credit he admitted that he was wrong and wished that we’d never traded him. But we didn’t live live in Cincinnati and I surmise that the hostility was greater here than out in the boondocks.
There is an overriding misconception that Clutch is an overriding misconception.
My dad once mentioned something about an argument at a diner where Robinson was arrested and a gun was found on him. I thought it was nearer in time to the trade, but it actually occurred prior to the ‘61 season. Still, I’m sure the fact that he carried a gun didn’t help him with management.
Frank was just a 'good ol' boy' masquerading as a Negro
There is an overriding misconception that Clutch is an overriding misconception.
This is where you and I disagree
Robinson is top 2 in my book. I’ll take his 10 years against any other player’s best 10 years with the Reds.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
I was a little surprised to see him this early, myself
And I’m also wondering if Larkin might get the nod over Morgan, just because of longevity. Larkin’s my favorite player ever, but Joe’s peak was inarguably better. Interesting to see who gets ranked where.
by Brendanukkah on Dec 14, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
It will be interesting how the final 4 compare
But riverfront’s numbers show him “only” top-3 by peak and prime, arguing against your “best 10 years” arguement.
I still say because of how fricken’ long he played, Rose ends up #1.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
you boys quit fussing...
There is a simple tie breaker and it is no BS stats thingy. Its the Mad-O-Meter.
I have personally watch (in person and on TV) more games with Rose and Bench than any one here at RR. Bench couldn’t cut it a 1st or 3rd…he struck out a lot and didn’t like to take a walk. Bench certainly changed the position of catcher and was a pretty great player. I would even consider Larkin an equal to Bench. Its too bad little Joe wasn’t with the team longer. He was a magnificent 2bman…an even better player and hitter than Larkin.
There is no question whatsoever that Pete Rose is the #1 Red of all time…but Pete has got to be in my to 8 of all time MLB players period.
There is an overriding misconception that Clutch is an overriding misconception.
I agree
I agree with most of what you said except possibly Morgan being a better hitter than Larkin. Both are 2 of the best to ever play their positions.
I have little doubt in saying that Morgan is a better hitter than Larkin
Morgan was leading the league in OPS as a 2B, doing everything. Larkin, while a very good hitter, wasn’t in Morgan’s class. Larkin was one of the best of his generation. Morgan was one of the best the game has ever seen.
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My nearer agreed
"Santa Claus doesn't use Craigslist." -- 'tHan
by jch24 on Dec 14, 2009 3:46 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
It seems like some one posted an article a few years ago
that mentions that they traded Curt Flood because they couldn’t have three Negroes starting in the outfield.
Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
that and he was a critical part in organizing for free agency
There is an overriding misconception that Clutch is an overriding misconception.
I thought FRobby would be higher on the list
in front of Morgan anyway. I wonder who gets more best player on the Reds nods, Bench or Rose?
Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
I vote for Robinson
My top 5 is
Robinson
Morgan
Rose
Bench
Larkin
And yes, I know Rose played longer…blah blah blah.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
Not only did he play longer but
he played more positions, more all star games more hits more everything.
There is an overriding misconception that Clutch is an overriding misconception.
The All Star Games just proves Rose was more popular
The hits are somewhat a result of playing longer, but also because Rose was a single/doubles guy, while the other two hit for some power.
I’m not dogging on Rose when I put him 3rd on my list. I just think that Robinson and Morgan were better players and I don’t hold Morgan’s lack of starting his career with the Reds or Robinson’s lack of finishing it with them against either player. Honestly, the top 4 are fairly interchangeable though and I’d put the Reds All Time Top 4 against any team’s all time top 4, even the Yankees, who I would guess would have Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio, and Mantle. Ruth gives them a big advantage, but it’s still a pretty good battle.
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BTW
I sent you an email last week. I need your address to send you your copy of The Machine.
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oops let me check that email
Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
Frank Robby
I was a young kid growing into a teenager when Robby broke in and eventually led the Redlegs to the 1961 pennant. While there was some commentary about him (and Pinson) being n——ers, most of us kids never saw it that way. But there was more reality to that racial pressure than some of us choose to remember.
I recall seeing the Reds and the Dodgers at Crosley when Frank took Koufax over the scoreboard to win 6-5 in the 9th inning. I also saw him play some of the worst first base in recorded history.
But the man could play the game and for my humble money, he’s ahead of both Morgan AND Larkin on this list.
Your memory
I’m guessing that was this game. Leo Cardenas hit a walk-off home run to give Nuxy the win and to move the Reds percentage points ahead of the Dodgers for first in the NL. Great game.
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I won't say how many years that was before I was born
but I will say that I wish I’d been alive to watch him play.
"If it wasn't this, it'd be something else."
not me
cuz then I’d be old like Madville. Who wants that? :)
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
OK, I wish Frank Robinson would have been in his prime when I was a kid.
I guess that’s better.
"If it wasn't this, it'd be something else."
My mother will be 99 next month...She's worried that we don't have enough 'hitters'
She is also concerned about Adam Harang but think that Bronson will have his best year ever.
But what does she know she’s just become a fan in the last 40 years….
There is an overriding misconception that Clutch is an overriding misconception.
more on perez
by the way, something that was not mentioned about tony perez is how reds management could so mistreat by all accounts a totally stellar guy. the 1976 trade was ridiculous, they forced his retirement in a bungling manner in 1986 and then, worst of all, fired him after only 44 games in his first year as manager. Even with baseball as a business, you don’t do that to someone like tony. if they didn’t want to take a chance on a rookie manager, then don’t hire him, that’s fine. but once you commit to someone the stature and decency and legendary status as tony, give him a legitimate chance. that was so pathetic that i, as a lifelong reds fan who stayed loyal through 102-loss seasons, etc. stopped rooting for them for many years after, until jim bowden left. ron oester’s stock went way up in my book when he quit in disgust after doggie’s firing. no way was i going to back an organization that could do that. sorry for the bitterness, but this has to be mentioned. of course, tony took his firing with as much dignity as possible, but it hurt to see him so upset. nothing could justify it.
by Big Red Machine on Dec 15, 2009 12:20 PM EST reply actions
Nope, not the game Slyde
In this particular game, Robby hit a 3-run dinger in the 9th off Koufax to win it 6-5. In those days, pitchers did indeed go the distance.
But thanks for that one.
I can also be accused of forgetting a lot of stuff.
hmmm
Robinson never hit a 9th inning HR off of Koufax at Crosley. Maybe you are thinking of this game? Or maybe it was this one off of Bob Gibson? I know he looks nothing like Sandy Koufax, but could just be you have the wrong dominant starter in mind.
And I’m not challenging your memory. I like to try to find boxscores of games that people remember just for the fun of reliving that memory. It’s one of my favorite things about baseball – reliving memories.
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
i disagree
I think you’re just a scrooge.
"Santa Claus doesn't use Craigslist." -- 'tHan
by jch24 on Dec 15, 2009 3:13 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
find this one
my favorite memory of the Reds is seeing Larkin start a triple play. I live in California, and that was one of only a couple of games I ever went to in Riverfront.
"The USA despite its flaws and corruption and overall messiness is still a great and powerful instrument of freedom and hope for the entire world." - Madville
Was it this one?
6/28/1989 – Top of the 6th, runners on 1st and 2nd and Jose Rijo on the mound. Bruce Benedict lines one to Larkin at shortstop. He throws it to Lenny Harris at 2nd to double up Jeff Treadway. Harris throws it on to Benzinger at 1B to get Jeff Blauser and finish the triple play.
It looks like it was the only triple play Larkin was ever involved in at Riverfront.
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Jeff Blauser hit my dog when I was 12
True story. Look THAT up.
"Santa Claus doesn't use Craigslist." -- 'tHan
Now seriously
Look up the game where Paul Wilson gave up a shit ton of runs in the first inning against either the Dodgers or Marlins (I forget). I was there and it was impressive.
"Santa Claus doesn't use Craigslist." -- 'tHan
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CIN/CIN200505060.shtml
Red Reporter or follow on Twitter: @redreporter
I lurv you for things like this
Thank gawd I was in a suite that day, the beer was free. I was openly rooting for him to give up ten runs, just so it would be that much more impressive.
"Santa Claus doesn't use Craigslist." -- 'tHan
The best part of that game if my memory serves
Every ball was hit HARD. It was uglier than it looked in the box, if possible.
"Santa Claus doesn't use Craigslist." -- 'tHan
Deron Johnson
Holy crap, I forgot all about that guy.
One season does indeed make a career and 1965 was as good as it ever needed to get for him.

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