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The Greatest Reds: #75 - #71

75. Johnny Edwards

Played as Red Primary Position Career Rank Peak Rank Prime Rank
1961-1967 C 85 72 66
Percent Breakdown of Value Best Season Best player on Reds
Hit Field Pitch 1963 Never
49% 51% 0%
Awards/Honors as a Red Leading the League On the Reds Leaderboard
Gold Glove – 1963, 1964
All Star – 1963, 1964, 1965
N/A

-15th in career intentional walks
-29th in career sacrifice flies
-44th in career AB/HR ratio
-49th in career HR

There are three things that come to mind in seeking to praise Johnny Edwards: 1) he’s one of the top 5 major league ballplayers to come out of The Ohio State University; 2) at his peak, Edwards combined decent durability, gold glove defense behind the plate, and a bat that ranked roughly around league average; and 3) he had the incredibly good sense to have back-to-back poor seasons as Johnny Bench was breaking through to the big leagues. Upon the 2nd poor season in 1967, Edwards was traded to the Cardinals in exchange for two guys who would become big-league managers (Pat Corrales and Jimy Williams).

Star-divide

74. Dave Parker

Played as Red Primary Position Career Rank Peak Rank Prime Rank
1984-1987 RF 93 42 66
Percent Breakdown of Value Best Season Best player on Reds
Hit Field Pitch 1985 1985
83% 17% 0%
Awards/Honors as a Red Leading the League On the Reds Leaderboard
Silver Slugger – 1985, 1986
All Star – 1985, 1986
RBI – 1985
Total Bases – 1985, 1986
Extra Base Hits – 1985
Doubles – 1985
Intentional Walks - 1985

-6th in single season total bases (1985)
-17th in career slugging percentage
-21st in career home runs
-32nd in career OPS
-33rd in career RBI

The Cobra. In 1985, the Reds employed a man who was, more or less, the baddest man on the planet. Doc Gooden was perhaps more intimidating, Don Mattingly was perhaps a better hitter, Rickey Henderson a better player, but Parker had the Thing and the respect that went with it. Parker finished the 1985 season with a .312 batting average (5th in NL), 42 doubles (1st), 34 home runs (2nd), 125 RBI (1st), 22 intentional walks (1st) and an OPS+ of 149 (5th)…all to go with one of the most powerful arms in the game. After the 1987 season, Parker was traded to the A’s for Jose Rijo. Parker is the highest ranking Red acquired via free agency.

73. Paul O'Neill

Played as Red Primary Position Career Rank Peak Rank Prime Rank
1985-1992 RF, LF 80 79 61
Percent Breakdown of Value Best Season Best player on Reds
Hit Field Pitch 1991 Never
82% 18% 0%
Awards/Honors as a Red Leading the League On the Reds Leaderboard
All Star – 1991 N/A

-25th in career HR
-37th in career walks
-40th in career RBI
-41st in career doubles
-47th in career slugging percentage

O’Neill had an unusual career, in that his five best seasons—as measured by OPS+--all happened after he turned 30…which meant they all happened as a member of the Yankees. O’Neill was an adequate right-fielder, with his best season (with Cincy) in 1991 showing stats of 256/346/481, including a career high in home runs (28), and 64 extra-base hits, which was good for 5th in the NL. One mediocre year later, he was sent to New York to become a perpetual .300 hitter, 100-RBI threat, marginal MVP candidate, and huge fan favorite. His transaction chain is pretty interesting: O’Neill was traded for Roberto Kelly, who was eventually traded for Deion Sanders, who was eventually part of a package traded for a group which included Dave Burba, who was eventually traded for Sean Casey.

72. Harry Steinfeldt

Played as Red Primary Position Career Rank Peak Rank Prime Rank
1898-1905 3B, 2B 56 95 78
Percent Breakdown of Value Best Season Best player on Reds
Hit Field Pitch 1903 Never
65% 35% 0%
Awards/Honors as a Red Leading the League On the Reds Leaderboard
N/A Doubles – 1903

-19th in career triples
-33rd in career doubles
-36th in career RBI
-42nd in career hits
-43rd in career stolen bases

Bill James tells us that in the old days, third basemen were further to the more difficult end of the defensive spectrum, perhaps akin to where the 2nd base position is today. Given that, with Steinfeldt’s above-average glove and roughly average bat, the resulting ranking of his 7-year career as the primary Reds third baseman around the turn of the 20th century makes some sense. In his best year with the Reds, Steinfeldt hit 312/386/481, good for a 136 OPS+…8th best in the NL that year. Steinfeldt was traded to the Cubs prior to the 1906 season, where he promptly turned in a season in which he led the NL in hits and RBI. Also, while not a key component, Steinfeldt was the starting 3rd baseman on the last Cubs team ever to win a World Series, over 100 years ago.

71. Cesar Geronimo

Played as Red Primary Position Career Rank Peak Rank Prime Rank
1972-1980 CF, RF 65 85 73
Percent Breakdown of Value Best Season Best player on Reds
Hit Field Pitch 1976 Never
71% 29% 0%
Awards/Honors as a Red Leading the League On the Reds Leaderboard
Gold Glove – 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977 N/A

-8th in career intentional walks
-35th in career walks
-36th in career triples
-40th in career doubles
-41st in career hits

The most unrecognized member of the Big Red Machine starting eight still put together a 15-year career. Part of the key trade that also brought Joe Morgan to Cincinnati from Houston, Geronimo went almost overnight from being a little-used backup outfielder to the starting centerfielder for the best team in the league. One gets the sense that the Reds’ management understood what Geronimo was and what he wasn’t…and decided that what he was fit perfectly into the overall structure of the team. And after giving him regular playing time, Geronimo made two key improvements to his offensive game: he learned how to take more walks (even after accounting for the high number of intentional walks he garnered as the #8 hitter), and he stole more bases. In fact, in 1976—en route to a 3rd consecutive Gold Glove award—Geronimo had a truly career year: a .307 batting average, 56 walks, 24 doubles, 11 triples, 22 steals (while being caught only 5 times), and an OPS+ of 125. Geronimo was one of the surprise stars of the 1975 series, hitting .280 with two home runs.

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Comments

Display:

You stopped your O'Neill trade chain too early

Casey was traded for Dave Williams
Williams was traded for Robert Manuel
Manuel was traded for Wladimir Balentien. The Ghost of Paul O’Neill still lives with the Reds

Definitely a good argument.

by Slyde on Nov 9, 2009 12:38 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Two things stick out in this group...
74. Dave Parker…Parker is the highest ranking Red acquired via free agency.

For the 548,932nd time – lack of money to sign free agents isn’t the Reds’ problem; signing the wrong ones is. When one of the top 75 players in team history is a FA, it’s not a problem with the FA system.

One gets the sense that the Reds’ management understood what Geronimo was and what he wasn’t…and decided that what he was fit perfectly into the overall structure of the team.

If only we were confident the current braintrust could make the same decisions.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Nov 9, 2009 1:23 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

whoah, over-react much?

I think he was just stating the fact that Parker was the best the Reds have done with Free Agency. You read WAY too much into that.

Definitely a good argument.

by Slyde on Nov 9, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

When the best the Reds have ever done ends up only #74 in team history, even with some of the high dollar guys they’ve signed, that says alot about talent evaluation.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Nov 9, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe

Although I’d argue that acquiring players via trade, as well as through the draft, say a bit about talent evaluation too. Let’s see how many of those players wind up in our Top 70.

by Brendanukkah on Nov 9, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

exactly

the best talent naturally costs more money, which is why the Reds don’t have a lot of big time free agent signings in their history. Yes, they’ve signed some bad free agent contracts, but they aren’t going to be competing for the top players in the game. They don’t have that kind of money.

FWIW, Parker is the highest ranked free agent that didn’t start his career with the Reds. I believe Larkin or maybe Bench would technically be the highest rated player signed out of free agency.

Definitely a good argument.

by Slyde on Nov 9, 2009 1:38 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

For a franchise as old as the Reds,

you’re not going to see a lot of FAs towards the top of the list.

Plus, whenever you sign a FA you’re getting a guy who’s at least in his late 20s. So you’re likely missing out on his peak seasons, which obviously makes it difficult to compete in team-career value with someone home grown.

by ken on Nov 9, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

what's the top FA for other teams?

It would really help to know how that ranking worked out for some other teams across the financial spectrum — say, Royals to Yankees. Or maybe the A’s, they’ve been around a long time too.

If Ken’s reasoning is valid (and in the absence of data, it seems reasonable) then most teams should have no FAs in their historical-top-players. That would support the oft-heard claim that you can buy a FA push you over the top for a championship, but you have to build a team from the farm.

I’m sure riverfront has nothing better to do than to compile top-100 lists for 29 more teams. Right, riverfront? :)

by bbjones on Nov 9, 2009 9:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was thinking more about the timeframe

Free agency is only about thirty years old, whih isn’t even a quarter of this franchise’s age. For a newer, larger market team like the Mets or Angels I would bet there’s at least two FAs in their respective top 10s.

by ken on Nov 9, 2009 9:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Right -- that's why the A's and Yankees would be good comps

But there’s always been a sneaking suspicion that when you get a FA, you are paying for what he USED to do, and this might be an interesting way to try to quantify that.

by bbjones on Nov 9, 2009 9:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Royals best Free Agent signing

has probably been Gil Meche.

And quite a few of the other teams have “Top X lists” either done or in progress on SBNation. I believe this is the complete list:

Top 10 Arizona Diamondbacks
Top 40 Baltimore Orioles
Top 100 Chicago Cubs
Top 100 Kansas City Royals (complete through # 31, who doesn’t appear on the linked master list, but can be found here)
Top 100 Los Angeles/California/Anaheim Angels (complete through # 2 – I’m pretty sure, based on a prior list, that # 1 is Tim Salmon)
Top 50 New York Mets (complete through # 32)
Top 177 Tampa Bay (Devil) Rays
Top 50 Texas Rangers (complete through # 36, who doesn’t appear on the linked master list, but can be found here)
Top 50 Toronto Blue Jays (complete through # 4)

Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!

by cmkeller on Nov 10, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Harry Steinfeldt was quite the wit

Showcasing his novel style of observational humor. “And what’s up with Cracker Jack? It’s not like there’s any cracker in there!”

by ken on Nov 9, 2009 1:39 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Another interesting line
Johnny Edwards (was) one of the top 5 major league ballplayers to come out of The Ohio State University

Really? Then I looked. Ugh. Frank Howard, a Heisman Trophy winner, and a bunch of journeymen.

So I looked a little further (don’t click if you don’t want to download a 6 MB .pdf). 10 All-Americans ever, 4 College World Series appearances ever (no CWS in 42 years). I guess I thought they had a better program than that.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Nov 9, 2009 1:40 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Oops

Forgot the link to the .pdf.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Nov 9, 2009 1:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Funny you mention O'Neill

What would we think today if a player had his best 5 seasons after turning 30 and being traded to NY(or Oakland, or St Louis?)

Funny how much different we think of things a decade later.

by PETIE on Nov 9, 2009 3:43 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Reds News!

The Rays have claimed Ramon Ramirez off of waivers. It looks like the 40-man roster is down to 36, with 3 players still on 60-day DL. Technically Hernandez and Wells are still on the roster, though Wells is a free agent and the Reds have already said they will decline Hernandez’s option (they still have another 10 days, I think).

Definitely a good argument.

by Slyde on Nov 9, 2009 3:52 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

heh heh heh

hey ’credsfan, do you want your new avatar now or are you going to wait until the season starts?

by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 9, 2009 4:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

very well

im at school now but i’ll email it to you when i get home.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 9, 2009 4:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So a month starting today?

I'mma let you finish, but....

by nycredsfan on Nov 9, 2009 5:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

make it tomorrow

there isnt much of today left :)

by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 9, 2009 5:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

fair enough

bastard

I'mma let you finish, but....

by nycredsfan on Nov 9, 2009 7:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Somewhere, Dusty's crying.

"If it wasn't this, it'd be something else."

by ZJiff30 on Nov 9, 2009 4:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

dang, that came out bigger than I wanted.

Sorry guys.

"If it wasn't this, it'd be something else."

by ZJiff30 on Nov 9, 2009 4:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Along those lines...

I saw Pauly Shore at Chipotle today.

"If you have a spaceship and are looking for a hilarious astronaut with an irregular heartbeat and thirty million dollars, I am prepared to leave as soon as tomorrow."

by Fat Vegas Alan on Nov 9, 2009 7:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Chipotle and a jerk.

That’s about it.

"If it wasn't this, it'd be something else."

by ZJiff30 on Nov 9, 2009 7:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

was he

jerking his chicken?

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Nov 9, 2009 7:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Did you ask him for extra guacamole?

"We, as for me all seasons you are affected peculiarly in the edge of my seat and are happy concerning the fact that the Adam Dunn fan has been mixed up exactly." - Reynard-san

by BK on Nov 9, 2009 7:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I had my daughter with me.

And even though she’s only eighteen months old, my fatherly insticts told me to get her away from Pauly Shore as quickly as possible.

"If you have a spaceship and are looking for a hilarious astronaut with an irregular heartbeat and thirty million dollars, I am prepared to leave as soon as tomorrow."

by Fat Vegas Alan on Nov 9, 2009 8:30 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

Wise choice, my friend.

"If it wasn't this, it'd be something else."

by ZJiff30 on Nov 9, 2009 8:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I've done that.

It’s not fun.

"If it wasn't this, it'd be something else."

by ZJiff30 on Nov 9, 2009 8:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That's what she said....

I gave up working out. My philosophy: No pain... no pain. ...
Mads.

by Madville on Nov 9, 2009 5:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Did you see last week's moves?

Corky, Lehr, Barker DFA’d to Louisville; Richar DFA’d but went FA.

Link.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Nov 9, 2009 5:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So...

MLB.com lists 38 including the guys on the 60-day DL, but they also still include Ramirez and Hernandez.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Nov 9, 2009 5:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm NOT encouraged that Lehr got a Major League deal...

…even if only for 1 year. He’s a 4-A guy, and we’ve got enough of those, already.

Thanks for the shut-out of the Cubs, now here’s you plane ticket and Good Luck.

"Whether you like it or not, history is on our side. We will bury you!"

by "Red" Moskau on Nov 9, 2009 5:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the weird thing

is Lehr was assigned to the Reds after being outrighted to the Bats.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Nov 9, 2009 5:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Reds released their spring training schedule

here.

How strange to see them playing all those Cactus League teams…

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Nov 9, 2009 5:30 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Whadda' you know...

In my mind, O’Neill was much more valuable than he plays out in this ranking— to think that Geronimo outranks him!
I probably built O’Neill up based on his Yankee performance. But his Game 2 in the 1990 NLCS I will always remember. The Reds had lost Game 1, so this was a must win before heading to Pittsburgh.
In the first, he an RBI single to drive in Larkin from 3rd.
In the fifth, after Chico Lind hit a solo homer in the top of the inning, O’Neill hit a 2-out double to drive in Herm Winningham from 2nd (I didn’t remember that Winningham started in CF that game!) .
Most importantly, after Browining gave up back-to-back singles leading off the top of the 6th to Andy Van Slyke and Bobby Bonilla, O’Neill fielded Barry Bonds’s fly to right and pegged Van Slyke trying to advance to 3rd. It took the heart out of the Buccos, let Browning get through the 6th and hand it off to Dibble and then Myers. I thought it was the most important play of the series.

"Whether you like it or not, history is on our side. We will bury you!"

by "Red" Moskau on Nov 9, 2009 5:34 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

O'Neill was a big crybaby fairy

I gave up working out. My philosophy: No pain... no pain. ...
Mads.

by Madville on Nov 9, 2009 5:37 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

This means all 7 other ones of the BRM are in the top-70, then, right?

And didn’t we already get to Dan Driessen on this list? Damn.

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Nov 9, 2009 9:40 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Well...

O’Neill, as a Red, had about 2900 PA at a 111 OPS+; Parker had about 2700 at 116 OPS+.

Of the remaining BRM position players, Griffey Sr. had the fewest PA as a Red, with 4716 PA with an OPS+ of 123, and he’s probably going to be next on the list. Bench (one of the 2 or 3 best catchers in pro baseball history) and Concepcion spent their entire careers here; Morgan won 2 MVPs, finished 4th twice more, and won 5 consecutive Gold Gloves. Foster finished 2nd (to Morgan) and 1st in the MVP voting in consecutive years. Perez had over 7600 PA at 127 OPS+ here.

Then there’s Rose, who’s likely to be #1. If he never played for Montreal or Philly, he’d still be #9 in career hits, tied with Barry Bonds for #14 in doubles, and #21 in runs scored over a career that was #35 in PA, with an MVP, 6 other top-10 finishes, and 2 Gold Gloves – in other words, if you completely ignore 22% of his career, he’d still be a certain Hall of Famer.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Nov 9, 2009 11:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Rose wouldn't be #1 on my list

and it’s not because I don’t like Rose, but because I don’t weigh his longevity as high. What I mean is, Morgan played with the Reds for 8 years and generated 61.3 WAR (just using WAR because it’s easy to get to). Frank Robinson played 10 seasons and generated 61.5 WAR. In Rose’s 10 best seasons with the Reds, not even consecutive seasons, he generated 58.5 WAR. His career WAR with the Reds of 74.6 isn’t enough for me to put him over top of Morgan’s and Robinson’s outstanding peaks.

That doesn’t mean he won’t top this list – riverfront76 did all of the work behind this list – but I’d probably put Rose 3rd all time.

Definitely a good argument.

by Slyde on Nov 10, 2009 8:13 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That's where we differ, I guess

Because we saw Morgan at his absolute best – his 8 years here included all 6 of his best by OPS+ and all 5 of his Gold Gloves. Robinson’s 10 years with the Reds was certainly better than any 10 consecutive Rose had, but Rose had almost 800 not very good PA with the Reds at the end of his career, at an age Robinson (and most everyone else) is sitting on the Barcolounger all summer – I can’t imaging many of those WAR came those last 3 years.

I know the exercise is “who was the best player for the Reds”, and those two were more excellent than Rose over short periods of time. To me, though, the fact that Rose was excellent for twice as long as either holds alot more water.

And, as you said, it’s riverfront’s list. He gets to make those decisions.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Nov 10, 2009 8:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not opposed to Rose being on top of the list

just that he wouldn’t be on top of my list. Even with a perfect metric, I think this list still requires some subjectivity. That’s why it’s an interesting endeavor. Also, that’s why I’m glad riverfront volunteered for it.

Definitely a good argument.

by Slyde on Nov 10, 2009 9:08 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Harry Steinfeldt

is the answer to one of the biggest baseball trivia questions – who was the third baseman that completed the “Tinker-to-Evers-to-Chance” infield?

Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!

by cmkeller on Nov 10, 2009 2:35 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Hi, hello, and welcome

“New York City’s #1 Royals fan”, eh? Can’t imagine there’s too much competition there these days.

"We, as for me all seasons you are affected peculiarly in the edge of my seat and are happy concerning the fact that the Adam Dunn fan has been mixed up exactly." - Reynard-san

by BK on Nov 10, 2009 3:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You'd be surprised

The KC Star’s Sam Mellinger wrote an article about Royals fans in NYC (published during the World Series), and didn’t call on me at all. And I’ve commented on his blog, with this very signature line, so he must know I exist, at least to some degree.

Over on RoyalsReview, there’s at least one other New Yorker who roots for the Royals (he goes by the screen name NYRoyal).

Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!

by cmkeller on Nov 10, 2009 4:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Arthur Bryants, Gates, or Oklahoma Joes

inquiring minds want to know

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Nov 10, 2009 6:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

None of the above

I’m a Kosher-observant Jew, I can’t frequent any of those establishments.

Best BBQ I’ve experienced is at Dougie’s BBQ here in NYC (multiple locations). I love it, but it’s probably different from what you’re used to in BBQ and wings, though.

Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!

by cmkeller on Nov 10, 2009 7:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pastrami egg rolls, split pea soup?

Yes, yes, I think I will.

I was in Kansas City a couple of weeks ago for running-related purposes, and decided that brisket was the best thing to have the night before.

We’re foodies of a sort over here, but you may void Kashrut just by searching some of the stuff we (I mean JCH) have done.

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Nov 10, 2009 7:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I've violated Kashrut with my eyes plenty a time

Fortunately for me, we Jews don’t hold of that New Testament line about “lusting in the heart = adultery”.

Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!

by cmkeller on Nov 10, 2009 8:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought he was Jerry's Father..

Well he may weell have been both.Looks like a ball player..

"What's wrong with being a boring kind of guy?"
George W Bush

by Madville on Nov 10, 2009 10:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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