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Sabermetric Review of the 2009 Reds, Part 3: Fielding & Total Win Values

As demonstrated in the opening article, the 2009 Reds fielding was a massive improvement over the 2008 team fielding.  Like we did with the offense, lets go position by position:

Fielding20082009_medium

The above plot is strictly based on UZR data (except for catchers, which use "my" catching stats based on sb/cs/pb/wp/e rates).  But you can see that there was a small dropoff in both Votto's and Phillips' fielding scores, but nice upticks at catcher, 3B, and CF....and GARGANTUAN improvements at shortstop, left field, and right field.  In each case, a massively sub-par fielder (Keppinger, Dunn, and Griffey) at each position was replaced with one or more well above-average fielders.  

What does this do to overall value?  Here are batting above average + fielding above average totals for each position:

Offenseandfielding20082009_medium
Granted, this is strictly using UZR data.  But wow--we're seeing net improvements at virtually every position.  The only dropoff was 3B.  We're even seeing improvements in LF, where the Reds essentially traded an offensive juggernaut in Dunn for players who could actually catch the ball.  I think if Dunn had played the entire 2008 season with the Reds, those bars would be close to equal.  That's pretty amazing.  Despite the dropoff in offense, at least by these measures, the move to a fielding-oriented team over the past year really did work: the 2009 squad of position players was better than the 2008 squad, almost across the board.  This is not what I expected to see when I started this.

Player by player breakdowns follow below the jump

Star-divide

The following table summarizes fielding data for each player, and combines the fielding data with offensive data to get a total win value statistic.  Here, whenever possible, I'm including both UZR and Fans Scouting Report data (pro-rated to playing time, converted to runs). Specifically, UZR data is being "regressed" onto Fans data.  The overall fielding estimate for regulars is close to the average of UZR and FSR.  But for more part time players, where UZR becomes less reliable, I'm weighting the FSR data more heavily than UZR (up to 10% UZR, 90% FSR).  For players who do not have FSR data, I'm assuming a fans value of league average.  The overall approach is admittedly a bit quick and dirty, but it mitigates a lot of the problems with using single-season UZR data by combining those data with less volatile scouting data.  I'm pleased with the results.

Pitchers, shown in italics, receive a massive position adjustment in recognition that a replacement pitcher is an average hitting pitcher.  Note that these values still don't get you to pitcher WAR, but they will shortly.  The table is sortable if you click in the header.

Name PA hitRAR UZR FSR Field PosAdj WAR
Joey Votto 544 53 -2 4 1 -9 4.9
Brandon Phillips 644 22 7 16 10 2 3.8
Chris Dickerson 299 7 8 7 8 -2 1.4
Jay Bruce 387 8 8 7 7 -4 1.3
Ryan Hanigan 293 0 7 6 7 5 1.2
Drew Stubbs 196 5 8 4 5 1 1.1
Jonny Gomes 314 18 -9 -6 -7 -3 1.0
Scott Rolen 162 4 3 5 4 1 0.9
Micah Owings 58 2 0 0 0 5 0.8
Laynce Nix 337 6 7 1 3 -3 0.7
Juan Francisco 25 4 1 0 0 0 0.5
Wladimir Balentien 125 5 5 -1 0 -1 0.4
Paul Janish 292 -7 12 5 7 3 0.3
Matt Maloney 15 0 0 0 0 1 0.1
Darnell McDonald 111 1 1 0 0 -1 0.0
Ramon Hernandez 331 -1 0 0 0 2 0.0
Daniel Ray Herrera 4 0 0 0 0 0 0.0
Jerry Hairston 340 1 -1 -2 -2 1 0.0
Arthur Rhodes 1 0 0 0 0 0 0.0
Jared Burton 1 0 0 0 0 0 0.0
Nick Masset 1 0 0 0 0 0 0.0
Ramon Ramirez 1 0 0 0 0 0 0.0
Carlos Fisher 1 0 0 0 0 0 0.0
Mike Lincoln 2 -1 0 0 0 0 0.0
Kevin Barker 36 0 0 0 0 0 0.0
Drew Sutton 76 -1 2 0 0 0 -0.1
Kip Wells 16 -3 0 0 0 1 -0.2
Danny Richar 9 -2 -1 0 0 0 -0.2
Johnny Cueto 59 -8 0 0 0 5 -0.2
Edinson Volquez 19 -4 0 0 0 2 -0.3
Aaron Harang 54 -7 0 0 0 5 -0.3
Justin Lehr 28 -5 0 0 0 3 -0.3
Corky Miller 69 -3 0 -1 -1 1 -0.3
Edwin Encarnacion 165 -1 -6 -3 -4 1 -0.4
Craig Tatum 77 -6 1 0 0 1 -0.4
Homer Bailey 43 -9 0 0 0 4 -0.5
Adam Rosales 266 -5 1 -1 -1 0 -0.6
Bronson Arroyo 76 -13 0 0 0 7 -0.6
Willy Taveras 437 -15 8 -5 1 1 -1.5
Alex Gonzalez 270 -17 2 -1 0 3 -1.5

Notes on table: hitRAR is the wRAR number from the offense post.  UZR is FanGraphs' fielding statistic, shown in units of runs.  FSR is from the fans scouting reportconverted into runs.  Field is a composite of the UZR and FSR columns, with roughly equal weighting for a player like Phillips or Votto who played most of the season, and more weighting to FSR as playing time gets lower and lower.  PosAdj is a position adjustment, in recognition that there are differences in fielding quality among different positions (i.e. it is easier to be an average fielding left fielder than an average-fielding center fielder).  WAR is wins above replacement, and is based on the sum of RAR, Field, & PosAdj, converted from runs to wins.

I don't think there was much doubt of this, but Joey Votto was clearly the most valuable position player but a full win.  After him, however, was Brandon Phillips, who by my numbers was pushing close to being a 4 win player.  OBP be damned, that's a quality asset, folks--worth almost $17 million on the free agent market!

Below Phillips, we have a pretty big dropoff to the 0.5-1.5 WAR players: most of the outfielders (including Stubbs for his fabulous September), the quality part-time performance of Ryan Hanigan, and twoish months of Scott Rolen.  As a group, this set of players put up very good rate stats (average WAR/700 PA for this group is ~3.5), but none accumulated more than 400 PA's.  A lot of the reason for that is injury, but it was also about leveraging strengths.  The left field "platoon" worked pretty well, perhaps because it prevented overexposure of guys like Dickerson to same-handed pitchers.

The player with the third-most PA's on the team, this year, however, was Willy Taveras.  And if you are going to complement Dusty on his use of players like Nix, Dickerson, and Gomes in LF, you have to come down equally hard on his use of Willy Taveras.  Taveras just had a miserable season.  He still has decent wheels, but he went through mind-blowingly long stretches without getting on base.  He didn't walk much, didn't hit much...he even struggled with his fielding as indicated by his harsh FSR rating. I have him at a full 1.5 wins below replacement, tied for worst with the anemic Alex Gonzalez (who, to be fair, got there in 160 fewer PA's than Taveras).  I call Taveras "Corey Patterson, without the power."

Other bad (replacement-level or worse) performances came from Ramon Hernandez (I expected him to be an upgrade over Bako--he wasn't), Jerry Hairston (the magic was gone this year, but at least the guy got a ring), Edwin Encarnacion (did we all get it wrong on this kid, or is there more to come?), and Adam Rosales (he hustles well enough, but you still have to hit to stay in the big leagues).

A few other players of note: Ryan Hanigan had a heck of a year.  He hit like an average replacement player, but that's an asset when you can catch--especially when you're an elite defender like he apparently is.  Both his objective catching statistics and his Fan Scouting agree that he was awesome behind the dish this year.  All of those combined for more than 1 WAR from a guy who played less than 50% of the time.  ....  Paul Janish held his own at shortstop after Gonzalez departed, despite not playing much during the first half of the season.  He's not a great long-term solution, but you can probably do worse than letting him play every day.  .....  Jonny Gomes, as we discussed before, was the worst fielder on the team, and this pretty severely cuts into his value. .....  Micah Owings, based on comparisons to other pitchers, added an extra 0.8 WAR to his overall value with his hitting skills.  We'll tack that onto his value in the next piece.  By the same token, unusually bad hitting performances, even compared to other pitchers, pitchers, will take a half-win or so off of Arroyo's and Bailey's overall value.  Hitting does matter for pitchers!

Overall, despite the fact that only two players broke 500 PA's, what's amazing about the 2009 team is that the overall contribution of all of these mixed and matched players resulted in an improvement over the 2008 squad, despite a dramatic switch from an offensive-oriented club to a fielding-oriented club.  Were they great?  No.  But they were improved.  If nothing else, it's something to build on for next season.

I'll leave you with this graph, showing batting, fielding, and overall WAR (all courtesy of FanGraphs, not my stuff) for the past several years:

Year Batting Fielding WAR
2006 -8 -26 +17.2
2007 +5 -41 +16.9
2008 -72 -43 +9.0
2009 -110 +53 +14.0

...maybe improvement over the 2008 team isn't worth bragging about.

Next time: Pitching.

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Discussion question

So, at the end of the day, the question is whether the 2010 Reds can maintain the awesome fielding of the 2009 club while simultaneously adding offense to push the Reds towards contention.

Does it come down to whether Jay Bruce figures it out?

by JinAZ on Nov 30, 2009 10:48 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Well...

If the Reds fielding remains at the 09 level its means that Jannish is at SS.
Adam Rosales (he hustles well enough, but you still have to hit to stay in the big leagues). – Somebody needs to tell Jannish this too.

If Gomes Hits and Bruce figures it out (he will), and if Stubbs and Roland stay strong offensively 2010 will be a year of significant improvement..maybe even contending year…

Lots of ifs and of course there’s Always Dusty (The title of the new sit-com I’m working on for obc).

I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.
Winston Churchill

by Madville on Nov 30, 2009 11:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

2010

I think its going to come down to several places seeing improvements. Jay Bruce is clearly the biggest one. If he can give up an .850-.875 OPS over 600 PA it goes a long way to helping the offense. At the same time I think Rolen needs to step up his offense. I know he doesn’t have the power he used to, but the guy needs to slug better than .400. Stubbs being a league average center field bat would go a LONG way as well.

Homer Bailey and Johnny Cueto need to give the Reds 175+ innings (175 for Cueto works for me, but I think Bailey is capable of 190-200) innings with an ERA in the 4.15 range between the both of them.

The good thing is, I feel pretty good about most of those things happening.

by dougdirt on Nov 30, 2009 11:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why wouldn't Cueto be capable of 190-200?

He should be more rested coming into the season this year and has pitched 170+ big league innings each of the last two years. It’s nitpicking, I know, but you said it and I want some justification, damnit!

Definitely a good argument.

by Slyde on Dec 1, 2009 8:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

His size

He was worked hard early in the season. Lets look at some stuff from his season split up into 10 starts per grouping.

First 10
IP per start – 6.8
Pitches per inning – 15.32
K/BB – 2.5
Slider MPH – 86.83 MPH

Second 10
IP per start – 5.4
Pitchers per inning – 18.07
K/BB – 2.0
Slider MPH – 86.30 MPH

Third 10
IP per start – 5.0
Pitches per inning – 17.94
K/BB – 2.0
Slider MPH – 85.86

He clearly broke down as the season went along, losing velocity on his slider at each stage of the season, laboring much more per inning and game and to me it all comes down to his size. He just can’t be a 7 inning guy most nights. His results will suffer if he is tried to be used that way.

by dougdirt on Dec 2, 2009 12:04 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

lets see how he does without winterball...

"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion

by justin007000 on Dec 2, 2009 12:19 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I still think it has more to do with the lack of time off during the off-season than his size

but we’ll find out this year, I suppose.

Definitely a good argument.

by Slyde on Dec 2, 2009 7:49 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It'd be fun to have him on the Aaron Harang winter workout plan

images of Johnny and Aaron mountain biking through the hills of Southern California are dancing through my head.

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Dec 2, 2009 10:22 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If we can get some Offense going

We might have a shot at challenging for a pennant in ‘10. Fielding has been great. But with the lack of power, gotta try working the small ball. Which is hard when you can’t consistently get on base.

Janish, who has been a solid SS defensively, needs to learn to make contact with the ball, especially against righties, and at least get on base.

Taveras. I don’t even want to go there. He’s overpaid and an underperformer. Unfortunately, we can’t trade him either, since he has no trade value.

I definitely think Jay Bruce needs to get his shit together. Rolen needs to play better, Asking him to play like the old Rolen is asking too much, though.

I can count on Bailey And Cueto to at least pitch decent. Arroyo and Harang will probably play good this year, since they may be both auditioning for other teams. But then, they probably get no run support like last season.

Another thing I noticed in 09, is that when our pitchers pitched good games, we had no run support. that has to change also. I’m tired of losing. Put up with it too long in both baseball and football.

I predict we win about 85 games this year. time to at least post a winning record. If the Bengals can sweep the AFC North, then the Reds can post their first above .500 record in 11 seasons (I can dream, right?)

by Danimal, Destroyer of Worlds on Dec 1, 2009 3:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Danimal, you started out so well...
gotta try working the small ball

The Reds led the NL in sacrifice bunts last year. They were tied for 3rd fewest double plays grounded into per opportunity. They were 4th in productive outs. They were the 5th best team at taking extra bases, though they also made the 4th most outs on the bases. They had the 5th most reached on errors in the NL.

They were working the small ball last year pretty well. You redeemed yourself though…

Which is hard when you can’t consistently get on base.

Exactly. Just for fun, these are the number of plate appearances by the 3rd hitter of each team with runners on base:
Team            PA
Nationals 374
Mets 365
Marlins 365
Diamondbacks 358
Dodgers 354
Cardinals 354
Brewers 354
Phillies 348
Padres 342
Astros 338
Rockies 331
Cubs 331
Braves 329
Pirates 321
Reds 317
Giants 300
It’s hard to score runs when you don’t put guys on base for your best hitter.

Definitely a good argument.

by Slyde on Dec 1, 2009 8:56 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree

i am not tired of losing

"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion

by justin007000 on Dec 1, 2009 12:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

short answer

yes with a maybe. no with a but.

Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand

by saboscork on Dec 1, 2009 5:42 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

like I said:

IF

I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.
Winston Churchill

by Madville on Dec 1, 2009 7:55 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bruce is the key

mainly because, short of picking up a good hitting shortstop (cough Hanley Ramirez cough), he is the spot where we are most likely to see the biggest upswing in production (all ifs, buts and caveats apply).

Like Doug said, we should also see improvements in CF, especially if Dusty manages it better by utilizing Dickerson if Stubbs isn’t getting it done or vice versa. I would think that we’d see similar defense there compared to what we got in 2009.

Having Rolen at 3B “all” year will improve the overall defense there, and I wouldn’t expect that he’d hit as poorly as the Reds 3B did before he got here.

We’ll likely see some offensive dropoff from Votto, but hopefully the fickle defensive metric pendulum will swing back in his favor to make up the difference.

BP should be BP.

Janish should be able to give us what we got from Gonzalez, so at least there won’t be a dropoff at shortstop, right?

So, as long as the outfield does its work and Rolen doesn’t fall off of a cliff, I think we should see some improvement over the 2009 offense. Not sure if it will be enough though.

Definitely a good argument.

by Slyde on Dec 1, 2009 9:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

2009 Reds OPS by position

C .671
1b .895
2b .780
3b .666
ss . 636
lf .721
cf .650
rf .816

Areas of potential improvement (with current roster):
- Rolen has averaged a .780 OPS the past 3 seasons.
- Dickerson/Stubbs can go 725-750 in cf.
- Bruce posting an OPS over 850 in rf.

by GregD on Dec 1, 2009 9:23 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

UZR

I was doing some reading on UZR yesterday to get a better understanding of it.

Is UZR typically repeatable from season to season or is it a stat like BABIP that has a mean reversion element?

Is there still an issue among sabremeticians of the data source of the defensive numbers behind UZR? I saw some articles refer to BIS vs. STATs Inc, with the nod for better data supposedly coming from BIS (which I understand would be the source used in your data from fangraphs.) UZR calculated from each source could result in different UZR figures for the same player in the same season.

Why do you think the UZR for Willy Taveras is so much bigger than the FSR? I think this is a good example of where the average of the two methods probably gives us the best measurement. He’s probably not as bad as the fans rated him, but he’s not as good as the UZR measurement. When his legs aren’t 100%, he’s certainly as bad, if not worse, than the FSR rating.

by GregD on Dec 1, 2009 9:36 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Good questions

The rough rule of thumb is that one season of hitting data is as reliable as ~3 seasons of fielding data, be it UZR, ZR, RZR, PMR, SAFE, etc. UZR data is repeatable, much more so than BABIP. But there’s a lot of noise in the signal.

The issue of data source is still present. Since Fangraphs buys its data from BIS, and it’s the only supplier of UZR data this point, all of the UZR data you see mentioned are bUZR (UZR from BIS). The correlation between bUZR and sUZR, last I saw this studied, was depressingly low. Apparently, we’re dealing with +-10 feet disparities or more in the outfield, which makes for fairly unstable data. We literally are dealing with stringers just eyeballing where a play was made and then assigning it to a specific zone on a map of the ballpark. No cameras, measuring, etc (yet).

My general recommendation for the best case fielding statistic given what we have available right now is to take the best fielding stat you can get based on BIS data and the best fielding stat you can get based on STATS data and average them. And then take those data and regress them to Fan Scouting Report data.

I didn’t get STATS data incorporated here, mostly because it’s a lot of extra work to covert Zone Rating (the only STATS inc-based fielding stat readily available) to runs and then (especially) get those players to match up to the same players already in my spreadsheets. But I did regress to Fan Scouting Report here. I didn’ t do so in a sophisticated way, but my feeling is that the difference between doing it in sophisticated fashion and the way I did it is a matter of a run or two here and there, at most. And it was a lot easier to do what I did. :)

Fielding stats do figure to get a tremendous boost in accuracy with the advent of the fieldf/x systems over the next few years. There will still be sample size issues, like with pitching stats, but at least the fairly extreme inaccuracy problems will be largely abolished.

As for Willy…the disparity only amounts to 5 runs or so, which isn’t huge. I think Fans tended to be more upset about his lack of ability to take good routes and such to the ball. He was rated as having terrible instincts, sub-par hands, and a sub-par arm. But he was rated as having superb speed. My guess is that, in his case, Fans were more disgusted with his fielding than is really justified. But that’s just a guess—it could be that UZR simply missed high on him this year (after, in my view, missing low on him in previous seasons with COL).
-j

by JinAZ on Dec 1, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't yell

For some reason, I can’t “reply” to posts. Stupid interwebs.

Madville:

Adam Rosales (he hustles well enough, but you still have to hit to stay in the big leagues). – Somebody needs to tell Jannish this too.
At least Janish can catch the ball occasionally.

Slyde:

…we should also see improvements in CF, especially if Dusty manages it better by utilizing Dickerson if Stubbs isn’t getting it done or vice versa.
This isn’t directed just at you, but I have to ask: Why is everyone assuming Stubbs can’t be an effective everyday CF? If he can walk at the same rate as he did in the minors (every 8.43 PA in the minors, every 13 PA in the bigs), he’ll make up for the drop in power everyone expects. And an elite-fielding CF (which is what everyone calls him) who’s a league-average hitter is awfully valuable.

GregD: It is widely held that you need 3 years of UZR data go get a good read on someone’s actual defensive value. Which makes it next to worthless, in my mind, because a player’s skills can change over that time.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Dec 1, 2009 9:53 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

That is not what I was saying at all about Stubbs

my point was that the past two seasons Dusty has gone way too long with one crappy player in CF when there were reasonable alternatives sitting on the bench or in the minors. I was just saying that if Dusty can avoid that strict loyalty and utilize his quality bench players rather than sticking for too long with a struggling player, he will give the team a better chance of improving over last season. And before you try to tear me a new one, I’m not saying that he should “play the hot hand.” I’m saying that if Stubbs goes 1 for 43 with no walks, like Taveras did, maybe it’s time to change things up a bit.

I think Stubbs will be better than Taveras, but he’s not a prospect on the same level as Jay Bruce and doesn’t deserve the same long leash, in my opinion.

It is widely held that you need 3 years of UZR data go get a good read on someone’s actual defensive value. Which makes it next to worthless, in my mind, because a player’s skills can change over that time.

This is why Justin regresses to the Fans Scouting Report, to help make up for some of that shortcoming in terms of data.

Definitely a good argument.

by Slyde on Dec 1, 2009 10:10 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You can make a strong argument that the Fan Scouting data is the best there is

People don’t like it because it’s based on subjective rather than objective inputs. But it’s extremely stable. The first 15 voters will typically rate a player within a few runs of the next 15 voters. Maybe they’re all wrong, but at least they’re very consistent.

FSR also correlates to the objective fielding stats just as well as they correlate to one another. It’s really become the first thing I look at for fielding data.
-j

by JinAZ on Dec 1, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Jannish has not yet shown an ability to consistently hit at the AAA level let alone the MLB level.

The days of the good glove-not hit SS are long gone. Barry Larkin buried that player prototype, threw some dirt on the grave and peed on it.

I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.
Winston Churchill

by Madville on Dec 1, 2009 5:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"you have to come down equally hard on his use of Willy Taveras."

OK, fine. If Justin tells me to, I’ll come down hard on Dusty’s use of Willy Taveras. Fucking cadamite.

"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander

by Cy Schourek on Dec 1, 2009 10:35 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

(reply still not working)

Slyde:

Again, the comment about Stubbs wasn’t directed at you or your statement in particular; it just seems the general commentary around here is that he needs to platoon with Dickerson, or that the Reds need a plan B when he “isn’t getting it done”.

And “not a prospect on the same level as Jay Bruce” is hardly damning.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Dec 1, 2009 11:48 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

The concern

as I hear it is that “all walk, little of anything else” hitters in the minors often can’t repeat their success at the major league level because major league pitchers have the ability pound the zone more so than you ever see in the minor leagues. I haven’t seen an objective study on that, however. Hanigan is a fairly similar hitter in that respect, and was essentially replacement level except that he can play behind the plate.

I certainly hope that Stubbs can at least hit like an average replacement player, because his fielding will then make him a legitimate asset in CF. I’ve just never been a big believer in his bat, and the fact that his success last year was due to a strange power surge rather than working his walks doesn’t make me any more optimistic.
-j

by JinAZ on Dec 1, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I listen reverently.

I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.
Winston Churchill

by Madville on Dec 1, 2009 5:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think his power/walks were anamolous

Pitchers were throwing him a lot more strikes when he first came up. His Zone% (pitches in the zone) was comparable to a lot of light-hitting guys like Eckstein, Kendall, and Taveras. He also had 3 walks and 5 HR in his first 18 games for a .274/.299/.500 line. In his last 24 games, I think pitchers stopped hitting the zone as much (the intentionality of that is up for debate) and he walked 12 times and had 3 HR for what I believe is a more realistic line of .260/.343/.385. Perhaps he has proven to pitchers that if they leave the ball in the zone, he can hurt it, so now they will be more cautious when pitching to him, leading to more walks.

Or this is all just a coincidence and irrelevant.

Definitely a good argument.

by Slyde on Dec 1, 2009 5:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

either way

he’s one of the most interesting players the Reds have turned up in recent times. i know i’ll be following him extra close.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 1, 2009 7:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Are you referring to HaniganMan as 'interesting'?

He’s a catcher for God’s sake.

I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.
Winston Churchill

by Madville on Dec 1, 2009 8:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Mads needs to go here

Definitely a good argument.

by Slyde on Dec 1, 2009 8:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm sorry...at my age its hard to follow the speed of the conversation...

Yes Stubbs is an interesting guy, Hanigan is boring.

Definitely a good argument.

I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.
Winston Churchill

by Madville on Dec 1, 2009 9:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This is what I believe

I argued many times with people about Stubbs power. Many times I heard it referred to as Taveras like during the 2009 season. Those people clearly didn’t see him play until he was in the majors. There is a clear difference between a guy not hitting for power and his walks drying up because you can throw him one down the middle and at worst its likely a double (Taveras/Pierre types) and guys who can hit it 450 feet if they get into it (Stubbs), even if they aren’t always hitting home runs. Guys like Stubbs can continue to walk at a solid rate of 10% because they can and will punish a mistake from time to time. There are always outliers of course (Chone Figgins and his 101 walks this season), but I don’t think pitchers are going to be grooving pitches down the middle to Stubbs anytime soon and its going to lead to walks because he gets the strikezone pretty well.

by dougdirt on Dec 2, 2009 12:12 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Tools vs. skills

Stubbs has always been reported to have a lot of raw power. What we heard, however, is that he had to compromise his swing so much to make contact that it sapped his ability to get good bat speed to realize that power. I’m certainly hopeful that he’ll continue to show some pop, and would be beyond thrilled if he turned into Mike Cameron-lite.
-j

by JinAZ on Dec 2, 2009 10:19 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm sounds vaguely racisct!!!

I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.
Winston Churchill

by Madville on Dec 2, 2009 1:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Some of those concerns

Were a bit overblown in my mind. He did make some swing changes, but bat speed didn’t change and neither did the loft that he got on the ball. I am going to be quite interested to see his BIP data for 2009 in the minors. The data from 2008 suggested he probably could have hit 8 or more extra HR’s had he played in more friendly confines than he did.

The biggest difference to me from AAA 2009 and MLB 2009 was that he was swinging harder more often. In AAA he seemed like he was just attempting to make contact at times, with just bat on ball approach. Every now and again you would see him go for one. That is the swing that was with him in the majors and most of his minor league career. He has said such this season, I just can’t find the article with the exact quote.

by dougdirt on Dec 2, 2009 6:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I remember the article you're talking about

I think it was a CNATI.com article (best Cinci reporting available as far as I’m concerned). I remember twittering a bit about it, because I wanted confirmation from someone who can actually judge these things visually.

I’m just not sure what to make of any of this, because it’s all just hearsay. There’s no question that his minor league stats don’t show a ton of power. I certainly subscribe to the idea that minor league stats can mislead in some cases because players are “working on things,” but it’s also true that they are often quite predictive of MLB performance. We can explain away his past performance all we want, but at some point we have to see results on the field for a full season.

Ultimately, we’re just going to have to see what happens next year. As others have said, he’s an interesting player, simply because the possible range of outcomes next season is so large. I can see him hitting 0.200/0.300/0.300 just as well as I can see him hitting 0.270/0.370/0.430. Regardless, I’m all for giving Stubbs a good, long look…because it’s not like this team’s going anywhere without a good season by both he and Bruce anyway.
-j

by JinAZ on Dec 2, 2009 8:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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