Baseball America releases their Reds top 10 prospects list
Guess who's #1? (hint: his name DOESN'T rhyme with Bonder Garbanzo)
This in an interesting list....thoughts?
If you have a BA subscription JJ Cooper, who made the list, is hosting a chat at 2:30 E.T.
2 months ago
nycredsfan
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Amazing how different that list looks compared to last years
Here is last year’s list:
1. Yonder Alonso, 1B
2. Todd Frazier, SS
3. Drew Stubbs, OF
4. Chris Valaika, SS
5. Yorman Rodriguez, OF
6. Kyle Lotzkar, RHP
7. Neftali Soto, 3B
8. Juan Francisco, 3B
8. Juan Duran, OF
10. Devin Mesoraco, C
Only Stubbs has “graduated” off the list. Here is this year’s list:
1. Todd Frazier, of/2b/3b
2. Yonder Alonso, 1b
3. Mike Leake, rhp
4. Chris Heisey, of
5. Juan Francisco, 3b
6. Yorman Rodriguez, of
7. Travis Wood, lhp
8. Matt Maloney, lhp
9. Brad Boxberger, rhp
10. Zack Cozart, ss
6 new names, but only 2 of them are new to the organization.
Definitely a good argument.
by Slyde on Nov 18, 2009 1:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Part of that is some good drafting (Leake, Boxberger) and some really good seasons (Wood, Cozart)
But a big chunk is “bad” seasons by guys in the system: Duran, Mesoraco, Soto, Lotzkar, Valaika all disappointed in some way this year, but I wouldn’t call any of them busts.
It’s exciting that 5 guys could drop out of the lists but still be legitimate prospects.
If I hear the word 'perky' again, I'll puke
by nycredsfan on Nov 18, 2009 1:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but Lotzkar and Valaika have injury issues
of course Lotzkar’s injuries may have ended his days as a productive pitcher.
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
by justin007000 on Nov 19, 2009 11:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Valaika's injury isn't an issue so much anymore, and Lotzkar just had TJ surgery
So he’s a big question mark, but still WAY too young to consider a bust. If this time next year he still isn’t pitching, then we could maybe call him that.
If I hear the word 'perky' again, I'll puke
by nycredsfan on Nov 20, 2009 9:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Lotzkar
Didn’t just have TJ, he also fractured his elbow pitching for the second time in about 6 months.
by dougdirt on Nov 20, 2009 9:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
which worries me greatly
if he had TJ I wouldn’t be overly concerned.
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
by justin007000 on Nov 20, 2009 12:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
eh, Dave Dravecky came back from a broken arm once
Definitely a good argument.
by Slyde on Nov 20, 2009 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Even though your comment is in jest
A list of pitchers who i can think of off the top of my head who broke their arm or fractured their elbows while pitching
Tom Browning
John Smiley
Dravecky
Powell
Tony Saunders
Chris Reitsma
Reistsma broke his elbow twice, and while he did have a period of effectiveness with Cincinnati, shortly after leaving his career was derailed and ended by a stream of elbow issues.
Powell was a relief pitcher returning from TJ, and broke his arm pitching for Atlanta.
Smiley broke his arm warming up in the Cleveland bullpen in 1997, and never came back.
Tony Saunderson broke his arm, and rebroke it when he was in minor league rehab.
I think these injuries occur do to a weakness in the bone or bad mechanics or a combination of both, and unlike TJ surgery which replaces a legiment, or shoulder surgery which repairs a torn capsule, labrum, or rotator cuff, not much can be done about a weak bone.
I would also like to note that I have not gone to medical school and I had do drop my intro-bio class as a freshman so I wouldn’t fail it, so I am making simple assertions based on my own mediocre to poor logic.
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
by justin007000 on Nov 20, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Lotzkar is a disaster mechanically, from what little I saw of him. If he has any hope, he would need his mechanics broken down and start from scratch. Inverted W, braking his arm after release, poor glove side arm control, poor timing. You may be able to get away with one mechanical flaw, but you start piling a whole bunch together and it’s bad news.
by Cormican on Nov 24, 2009 4:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wood at 7 seems ridiculous with the season he just had
But if there are 6 players better than him, I’m not complaining. I don’t think we’ve seen anything too amazingly impressive from Leake yet. Is his high draft status enough to justify the #3 spot on the list over Wood?
"We, as for me all seasons you are affected peculiarly in the edge of my seat and are happy concerning the fact that the Adam Dunn fan has been mixed up exactly." - Reynard-san
by BK on Nov 18, 2009 1:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I agree somewhat, but I think they are also looking at MLB potential.
Wood still projects as a #3-4 starter, whereas Leake has more #2-3 potential.
I agree he should be higher though. I’d put him above Yorman at least.
Oh, and HOO-RAH Todd Frazier!!!
If I hear the word 'perky' again, I'll puke
by nycredsfan on Nov 18, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yorman is awesome
I’d have put him over Francisco at 5. If they keep pushing him up the system he could be an elite CF.
"We, as for me all seasons you are affected peculiarly in the edge of my seat and are happy concerning the fact that the Adam Dunn fan has been mixed up exactly." - Reynard-san
by BK on Nov 18, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but if you are going to go by what they've done so far, he hasn't shown any more than Wood
If I hear the word 'perky' again, I'll puke
by nycredsfan on Nov 18, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure it is
Mike Leake has 3 pitches better than Travis Wood’s second best pitch (his fastball) with his fastball, slider and change up. Travis Wood at best is a #3 starter. He has a fastball that works mostly 87-90 MPH and tops out at 91, a great change up and a solid cut fastball. His curveball is not all that good still, but did improve from where it was in the past. Leake is just a better overall package with better control, better offspeed pitches (even though Wood does have the best offspeed pitch, his other one isn’t even average), better fastball, better movement and better size (both are small guys though).
by dougdirt on Nov 18, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I get that Leake has better stuff than Wood
That and his height have always plagued Wood in his career, which I guess can help explain why he isn’t higher. Leake’s had a great AFL season in 4 starts so far (1.72 ERA, 11/3 K/BB), but Wood did that for the entire season in two levels in the high minors. Leake’s probably the more valuable pitcher long term, but I’d like to see Wood get a little recognition for the season he’s had, is all.
"We, as for me all seasons you are affected peculiarly in the edge of my seat and are happy concerning the fact that the Adam Dunn fan has been mixed up exactly." - Reynard-san
by BK on Nov 18, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He certainly got his recognition
But this list isn’t about who had the best season its about who will be the best pro.
by dougdirt on Nov 18, 2009 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think you are missing the mark a bit regarding his draft status
it’s not that he gets a high ranking because he was drafted high, it’s that his high ranking and high draft slot are because he had an impressive career at an elite university exhibiting the pitching skills that dougdirt illustrated. we have seen impressive stuff from Leake, it all just happened before he was in the system.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 18, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Are we going to do community ranking this offseason?
I’d kinda like to see that, maybe alongside a subsequent RR writer list, as lead by BK. The Projected 2013 Lineup and Best Tools sections in BA are nice, but I think we could do better here – starting by spelling Ryan Hanigan’s name right – or not at all.
Here’s my crack 2013:
Catcher: Devin Mesoraco
First Base: Yonder Alonso
Second Base: Maicer Izturis (why?)
Third Base: Todd Frazier
Shortstop: Zach Cozart
Left Field: Joey Votto
Center Field: Drew Stubbs
Right Field: Jay Bruce
No. 1 Starter: Homer Bailey
No. 2 Starter: Edinson Volquez
No. 3 Starter: Johnny Cueto
No. 4 Starter: Mike Leake
No. 5 Starter: Travis Wood
Closer: Brad Boxberger
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Nov 18, 2009 2:17 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Community rankings are going to happen again this year
"We, as for me all seasons you are affected peculiarly in the edge of my seat and are happy concerning the fact that the Adam Dunn fan has been mixed up exactly." - Reynard-san
by BK on Nov 18, 2009 2:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
wow
Look at Chris Heisey now.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on Nov 18, 2009 2:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
#1 on LF depth chart for Reds
According to Marty. Apparently Walt showed a MLB depth chart that had Heisey #1 at LF.
by dougdirt on Nov 18, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Of the big league Reds, or the minor leagues?
"We, as for me all seasons you are affected peculiarly in the edge of my seat and are happy concerning the fact that the Adam Dunn fan has been mixed up exactly." - Reynard-san
by BK on Nov 18, 2009 3:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Big League-- it had Gomes behind Heisey
It also had T-Virus THIRD behind Stubbs and Dickerson. The other thing I noted (via Marty on the Hot Stove League podcast) was Janish #1 at SS.
"Whether you like it or not, history is on our side. We will bury you!"
by "Red" Moskau on Nov 19, 2009 6:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that probably means
They’re too cheap to get anyone else.
Er, not that I object to Heisey getting the LF job. If you’re not gonna contend, give the kids a shot!
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on Nov 18, 2009 4:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure its too cheap
Just too broke. There is a big difference between the two things. The Reds are broke.
by dougdirt on Nov 18, 2009 4:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i dont believe that for a second
when the owner is an unconventional millionaire, the team is never broke. he just chooses not to spend any more of his vast fortune on them.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 18, 2009 5:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The team has a budget
Based on money being brought in from tickets, advertising and MLB revenue sharing from other teams and the media contracts. They are making a small amount of money as ‘profit’ today split up between the majority ownership group of 3 (70% of the Reds ownership) and a smaller group of a few that make up the minority owners (30% of the Reds ownership).
There is a difference between being broke in one business and being broke as an individual. You can’t run a business from your own pocket. No one does. To hold the Reds ownership to a different standard than every other team in baseball is unfair. No team operates out of the owners pocket.
by dougdirt on Nov 18, 2009 5:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A few things
1. We don’t really know what the budget is. I’m not going to necessary take the team’s word for it that they’re not making enough and need to cut payroll. True, they’re a privately held business and they’re not obligated to open their books. But at the same time, if they want to spin a financial tale of woe to the community I want to see some proof.
2. Along those lines, I think the community deserves an accounting if the team cries poor due to the stadium subsidy. No private business receives largesse of that magnitude from the state/local government. This of course is not particular to the Reds; more of a frustration with sports in general.
3. I don’t expect an owner to subsidize his team’s operations but I don’t think it’s without precedent. Paul Allen approved huge payrolls for the Blazers for much of the ‘90s that surely exceeded revenues. The Diamondbacks splurged in the early aughts (though that eventually led the owners to sell the team, iirc). I’m sure there are other examples. Sports franchises are vanity investments as much as anything.
by ken on Nov 18, 2009 6:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We have a pretty good idea of their finances
Thanks to the work done by Forbes. It is not exact, but it is a fairly good guess and the idea was that the Reds were making 10-20M per year, or roughly 4.7M for each of the 3 majority owners per year in the $20M profit years. Considering that those guys initially invested $90M to buy the team, they aren’t making much per year.
by dougdirt on Nov 18, 2009 6:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oops
A ROI of 7.6% (they each invested $90M); still a pretty good take in most business.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
by sidnancy on Nov 18, 2009 7:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey sid
are you gonna come work for Joe Morgan’s Honda Store?
You guys could have some great statistical discussions!
Made from 100% Recycled Awesome,
by 'tHan on Nov 18, 2009 8:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I met him
No one could figure out why he was at the national dealer meeting in Chicago 2 years ago. There have been other celebs I’ve met after staring at them a while and asking people if it’s really them, but how many midgets (I’ll kiss you on the lips if he’s really 5’ 7") that look like Joe Morgan can there be? Want proof I met him? I haven’t washed my right hand since – it still smells of crappy but expensive hors d’oeuvres.
The Voss guys are going to be actually running the place (Voss is the co-owner). I doubt they’d put up with my lack of work ethic (that’s my actual ethic – not to work).
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
by sidnancy on Nov 18, 2009 8:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the article says Morgan is the majority owner
but if it’s part of the voss group, it should be very successful.
Made from 100% Recycled Awesome,
by 'tHan on Nov 18, 2009 8:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Work done by Forbes?
Forbes goes by what the Reds give them, combined with their own “educated guess”.
When the Reds make more than $10M in profit annually, they have no legs to stand on to cry poor.
by Highlifeman21 on Nov 22, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fruit fortune?
That’s the most conventional millionaire there is.
"And then there was the USAID guy in Kandahar who drove a giant pink Cadillac, which the locals set on fire one day. If you wanted to destroy something symbolic during a riot, you just could not do better than that. Good stuff." - Ghosts of Alexander
by Cy Schourek on Nov 18, 2009 7:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Technically produce, not fruit
But poe-tate-oh, poe-taught-oh.
"Santa Claus doesn't use Craigslist." -- 'tHan
by jch24 on Nov 18, 2009 7:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
gay'd
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
by justin007000 on Nov 19, 2009 3:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree completely
Lettuce Bob chooses to pocket the profit(s), as opposed to reinvesting the profit(s) in the Reds.
From a money making standpoint, hats off to Lettuce Bob.
From a making the Reds a better team standpoint, FU Lettuce Bob
by Highlifeman21 on Nov 22, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ya know, this might be a good place to say/ask this
Baseball owners are, by and large, very successful businessmen (the rest are Walton heirs, but that destroys my arguement). We often hear that sports are a business, and that we need to keep that in mind (especially as it pertains to player movement). Every one of these guys struggled financially for a few years – absorbing losses, not paying themselves, whatever it takes because they had a vision of building a successful, profitable business; to a man, they eventually succeeded.
So why don’t any of these guys treat it as a business? If they did, they’d put up with losing money for a couple of years knowing that a successful team becomes highly profitable. Instead, they treat their teams as investments, making sure they never lose money along the way, and cashing out when they think it’s most opportune.
If you’re reading this, Mr. Castellini, that’s my question: We all know you’re a smart businessman; your reported self-made wealth is testament to your business savvy. Why don’t you do the same thing with the Reds that you did with your produce company? Look at it as a business, one that needs to be built with significant financial sacrifice on your part in order to reap the benefits 5 or 10 or 20 years down the road?
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
by sidnancy on Nov 18, 2009 5:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Castellini isn't self made
He has daddy’s money. And again, no one operates a sports business like a regular business. Everyone makes profit every year in baseball. All of them. Why should we expect the Reds to be different?
Don’t get me wrong, I am with you on the idea that they could take a few million lost here or there to improve the overall product for the future in the hopes of bringing in more money…. but no one does that these days in baseball.
by dougdirt on Nov 18, 2009 5:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not even the Yankees?
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on Nov 18, 2009 5:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
When did the Yankees lose money?
and if its claimed, does it include all of the cash they get from the YES Network?
by dougdirt on Nov 18, 2009 6:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There have been several articles in the financial press
Claiming the Yankees lose money every year.
But some claim they are profitable if you include YES. Nobody seems to know how exactly how much the Yankees make off YES. Or how much they make from selling broadcast rights to Japan. I’ve heard rumors that Hideki Matsui was basically free for them, because of the Japanese broadcast fees, but so far as I know, the exact numbers have never been revealed.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on Nov 18, 2009 7:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Because it's good business
You’re right – no one does it these days in baseball; that doesn’t make it a sound long-term business model. Every real business on the planet knows that losses are sometimes an evil necessity to long-term growth. While it didn’t work in Arizona, Phoenix is new to MLB; Cinci has shown in the past that they will financially support a strong team.
I’ll bring my dead horse out to beat some more. Mike Illitch spent alot of money to make the Tigers a winner, and it’s paid off – just like he did with the Red Wings. Maybe he does it because he really cares about owning a winner and not making a ton of money and selling the team after 5 years, but it has obviously worked for him. It can be done.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
by sidnancy on Nov 18, 2009 7:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A mere three years ago...
…Baseball America picked Eric Duncan as the second best prospect in the Yankees system. That would be the Eric Duncan who just became a six-year minor league free agent, without ever playing in the big leagues. Also on the list: CJ Henry, playing college basketball last I heard, Jose Tabata, traded to the Pirates, and Tyler Clippard, languishing in the minors for the Nats.
The list for the Reds, ca. 2006:
1. Homer Bailey, rhp
2. Jay Bruce, of
3. Travis Wood, lhp
4. B.J. Szymanski, of
5. Chris Denorfia, of
6. Rafael Gonzalez, rhp
7. Miguel Perez, c
8. Tyler Pelland, lhp
9. Joey Votto, 1b
10. Travis Chick, rhp
Jo-eh really climbed the list, didn’t he?
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on Nov 18, 2009 5:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Slyde, should I once more post my feelings about counting on prospects...
or just let this list speak for itself?
Objectively speaking, the Reds on the current list have more of a pedigree and a record than that 2006 list, but still, the I’m not exactly waiting to get my BJ Szymanski ROY card signed.
I will say this, either blow it up and go marlins or try to win. Mediocrity is killing me. And, to Doug’s point above, that budget would sure look better after they sold all those tickets a winning team sells
by timb116 on Nov 18, 2009 5:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Again, you are forgetting the fact that the Reds had one of the worst farm systems in baseball for much of the decade
No, you can’t count on prospects when you continually draft crappy players or players you can’t sign. Also, no one is saying every player in the top 10 will be a great contributor, but look at that list:
Bailey, Bruce, and Votto are all young, have already contributed to the big club, and probably will even more so in the future. Wood is 23 and knocking on the door, and Denorfia did contribute, just not so much to the Reds.
That’s a potential 5 big leaguers out of 10 prospects. Even by your own standards you are wrong on this.
If I hear the word 'perky' again, I'll puke
by nycredsfan on Nov 19, 2009 9:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, all top 10 lists are not created equal
Just because a player is in the top 10 list doesn’t mean he’s a future star. A weak system will have a weak top 10 list.
That may or may not be true about the Reds current list.
Definitely a good argument.
by Slyde on Nov 19, 2009 10:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That was the point I alluded to in the second sentence
I have more faith in this current crop of Reds than I did the 2006 list.
with that said, when they publish the Top 100 list, let’s see how many Reds are on it.
by timb116 on Nov 19, 2009 11:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The lists get to be more of a crapshoot the larger you make them
I typically don’t trust a league wide list beyond the first 20 or so players, and even the top 20 players can be way off some years.
Definitely a good argument.
by Slyde on Nov 19, 2009 12:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There's no way to be objective now that we've had three years to track the '06
list, but the current Top 10 “feels” a lot better. It would be a disspointment if 8-9 of these guys didn’t see several years of MLB service time. I’m not sure you could have said that about the ‘06 list even one year out. If this says anything about the Reds current farm system as a whole, it’s that they at least have a lot of players on the brink. Combine that depth with 2011’s (theoretical) payroll flexibility and you have a winner. Wake me up in a year.
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Nov 19, 2009 10:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
2006 vs 2009
2006 had more ‘star power’ but nowhere near the same kind of depth top to bottom. 2009 lacks that ‘star power’ but has a ton more depth.
by dougdirt on Nov 19, 2009 2:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Looks to me that based on 2006, the Reds are batting .300
Success!
by ben nevis on Nov 18, 2009 6:16 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Plus
Denorfia wasn’t exactly horrible (.278/.358/.382 in 164 PAs over 2005 and 2006) before he had Tommy John surgery in 2007 and was traded away.
Oh, and guess who we got in that trade, along with Marcus McBeth and cash?
Let me write out a formal proof for you.
by Gray on Nov 18, 2009 6:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Success!
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on Nov 18, 2009 6:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Soul suck-sess that is
Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Nov 19, 2009 10:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Better than that, in my opinion
Travis Wood was fresh off a year in rookie ball and was entering his age-19 season; he’ll still only be 23 next year.
Remember, that list is who will make the best major-leaguers, not who will be the best major-leaguers next year.
"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"
by sidnancy on Nov 18, 2009 7:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tim Lincecum wins the NL Cy Young
despite Wainwright appear first on more ballots (12 to 11). Drew Stubbs did not appear on any ballots.
Definitely a good argument.
by Slyde on Nov 19, 2009 2:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yet
Stubbs didn’t appear on any ballots yet…. Stubbs was a risky pick. Lincecum was just as risky if not more though.
by dougdirt on Nov 19, 2009 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
nope
your retarded. Drew Stubbs is Darko Milicic.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 19, 2009 4:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
nah
you know i love Stubbs. Lincecum is a drugger. no room in baseball for guys like that.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 19, 2009 4:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
nobody here is ever serious
if the post starts with “your retarded.”
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on Nov 19, 2009 5:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
or otherwise
unless they are trying to make a post that i won’t read
Made from 100% Recycled Awesome,
by 'tHan on Nov 19, 2009 5:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe I am retarded though
So I never know. Or perhaps I have just had 500 too many arguments over Drew Stubbs/Tim Lincecum in my time and just assume everyone absolutely hates Drew Stubbs because he isn’t Tim Lincecum.
by dougdirt on Nov 19, 2009 5:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that's a pretty good reason to hate stubbs
if only someone on this site would’ve spoken up and told the reds to take lincecum!
Made from 100% Recycled Awesome,
by 'tHan on Nov 19, 2009 6:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Even if they did
There was still an incredible amount of risk associated with him. Between his size, mechanics and terrible control in college (averaged over 6 walks per 9 innings) it was a big gamble to take him. Same with Stubbs for the bat. Neither was a slam dunk guy, we didn’t pass on a Justin Upton type for someone else in that draft.
by dougdirt on Nov 19, 2009 6:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
/reason'd
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
by justin007000 on Nov 19, 2009 6:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
2 cy youngs
Made from 100% Recycled Awesome,
by 'tHan on Nov 19, 2009 8:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
subtract the Cy Youngs and he is like Tom Browning.
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
by justin007000 on Nov 19, 2009 9:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
who cares about weed?
Quick question. Who was the last Red to win a Cy Young?
"Nate Silver is a genius" .... BK
by obc2 on Nov 19, 2009 10:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
by justin007000 on Nov 19, 2009 10:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Which has nothing to do
with the amount of risk associated with a 5’10 160 pound pitcher with funky mechanics and historically bad control. He was like the 5 tool athlete who didn’t quite have baseball skills. Boom or bust. He definately went boom, but lets keep things real here. The kid was a huge risk when he was drafted and even if you thought he was the right pick at the time (I thought anyone not named Stubbs was the right pick at the time), there was a ton of risk associated with that pick.
by dougdirt on Nov 19, 2009 11:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i guess an agrument could be made
that he might not have turned out this way in Cincinnati, since he had so many question marks. I don’t know how good that argument is, but it’s defiantly an argument.
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
by justin007000 on Nov 20, 2009 12:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I will give it to the Giants
They seem to develop pitchers pretty damn good. Whatever Lincecum’s issues were in the control department they fixed them up real fast. Who knows if it would have happened with the Reds…. we won’t ever know that answer.
by dougdirt on Nov 20, 2009 1:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but we can pretend to know the answer!
stupid Wayne Krivsky!
Definitely a good argument.
by Slyde on Nov 20, 2009 8:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I am always serious and my comments are well thought and sincere.
Thanksgiving is just around the corner
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.
Winston Churchill
by Madville on Nov 21, 2009 10:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
darko?
i think it’s official that he is sam bowie
Made from 100% Recycled Awesome,
by 'tHan on Nov 19, 2009 5:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but never nervous
Made from 100% Recycled Awesome,
by 'tHan on Nov 20, 2009 8:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
his retarded?
Definitely a good argument.
by Slyde on Nov 19, 2009 4:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
to demonstrate how far this organization has come
I checked Gookies numbers, that would be like Paul Janish being the Reds top prospect.
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
by justin007000 on Nov 19, 2009 4:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
that was a failure
to demonstrate how far this organization has come Gookie Dawkins was ranked as their top prospect in 2000. etc
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
by justin007000 on Nov 19, 2009 4:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
start the Justin Smoak vs Yonder Alonso debate
"Nate Silver is a genius" .... BK
by obc2 on Nov 19, 2009 10:26 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Gordon Beckham vs. Alonso
Beckham played in the majors this year, at 3B no less.
"Santa Claus doesn't use Craigslist." -- 'tHan
by jch24 on Nov 19, 2009 10:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think they are pretty close
but neither seem to hit lefties all that well. i’ll give Smoak the nod because i think he has more power potential.
also, Smoak is easy pickins for weed jokes.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 19, 2009 10:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Will Carroll and Keith Law cost Wainwright the Cy Young
Carroll picked Dan Haren third. Big back of dicks, indeed.
"Nate Silver is a genius" .... BK
by obc2 on Nov 19, 2009 10:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I think Wainwright cost himself the Cy Young
by pitching worse than Lincecum.
Definitely a good argument.
by Slyde on Nov 19, 2009 10:55 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
19 wins!
that shoulda sealed it!
Made from 100% Recycled Awesome,
by 'tHan on Nov 20, 2009 8:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he should have won 20 if he really wanted the award
it’s a round number, and therefore more important
Definitely a good argument.
by Slyde on Nov 20, 2009 8:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i agree
20 would have been better than 19.
he definitely should have gotten to 20. he only has himself to blame!
and drew stubbs
Made from 100% Recycled Awesome,
by 'tHan on Nov 20, 2009 8:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no, Wayne Krivsky
because if the Reds had drafted Lincecum, he would have sucked.
Definitely a good argument.
by Slyde on Nov 20, 2009 9:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dusty would've sent him into an injury induced retirement!
Made from 100% Recycled Awesome,
by 'tHan on Nov 20, 2009 9:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yes, it's Dusty's fault!
I knew it!
Definitely a good argument.
by Slyde on Nov 20, 2009 9:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's really Jerry Narron or Bob Boone's fault.
The Dusty is a close 3rd, however
by Highlifeman21 on Nov 22, 2009 2:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
stats were a lot closer than i imagined
i wouldnt actually say he pitched worse than Lincecum, its a pretty thin margin.
"Nate Silver is a genius" .... BK
by obc2 on Nov 21, 2009 7:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Haren/Vazquez
Both pitched 30-40 more innings than Carpenter with better xFIP’s than either of the Cardinals guys and that seems to be likely what cost Wainwright or Carpenter the Cy Young in favor of Tiny Tim.
by dougdirt on Nov 19, 2009 11:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
xfips are great
but who had the most wins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Made from 100% Recycled Awesome,
by 'tHan on Nov 20, 2009 8:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ok, so we'll give the yankees the cy young award.
do you even understand baseball?
Made from 100% Recycled Awesome,
by 'tHan on Nov 20, 2009 9:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
Apparently the refs don’t though. They didn’t even call that handball in the Ireland/France match the other day. Jerks I tell ya!
by dougdirt on Nov 20, 2009 9:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i don't get it
Made from 100% Recycled Awesome,
by 'tHan on Nov 20, 2009 9:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he's talking futball!
Definitely a good argument.
by Slyde on Nov 20, 2009 9:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
futball!
spelled correctly and everything! Slyde, on this peachiest of weekends, you have made my day.
Made from 100% Recycled Awesome,
by 'tHan on Nov 20, 2009 10:04 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
aaaaaand rec'd
"We, as for me all seasons you are affected peculiarly in the edge of my seat and are happy concerning the fact that the Adam Dunn fan has been mixed up exactly." - Reynard-san
by BK on Nov 20, 2009 11:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
double rec
what’s the fastest a moving fan has ever traveled on 75N?
methinks previous record is broken tomorrow.
"Nate Silver is a genius" .... BK
by obc2 on Nov 21, 2009 7:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What the hell is a moving fan?
"Santa Claus doesn't use Craigslist." -- 'tHan
by jch24 on Nov 24, 2009 9:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention they were offsides to begin with
by Brendanukkah on Nov 20, 2009 11:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep.
Inexcusable. I think it’s funny that after the backlash, Henry has now admitted that there should be a replay, but FIFA already shot it down. If there’s one organization that’s run worse than MLB, it’s FIFA.
"We, as for me all seasons you are affected peculiarly in the edge of my seat and are happy concerning the fact that the Adam Dunn fan has been mixed up exactly." - Reynard-san
by BK on Nov 20, 2009 11:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and Red Reporter
"Nate Silver is a genius" .... BK
by obc2 on Nov 21, 2009 7:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Keith Law defends his selection to St. Louis radio
It’s a pretty good listen, despite Law coming off douchey.
Definitely a good argument.
by Slyde on Nov 20, 2009 9:38 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Keith Law sounding like a douche?
Say it ain’t so!
If I hear the word 'perky' again, I'll puke
by nycredsfan on Nov 20, 2009 10:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i hate self righteous stathead douche's
"Nate Silver is a genius" .... BK
by obc2 on Nov 21, 2009 7:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Keith Law's the kinda dbag that keeps his Harvard email address just to prove he went to Harvard
… which is cool and all, and going to Harvard and matriculating is quite the honor, but at the same time, what does that say about Harvard if they accept and matriculate dbags like Keith Law?
by Highlifeman21 on Nov 22, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They accepted this guy
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
by justin007000 on Nov 22, 2009 2:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather him than Clinton or Obama
… just sayin’
by Highlifeman21 on Nov 22, 2009 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i really didn't mean to open that can of worms.
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
by justin007000 on Nov 22, 2009 5:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
why the question mark ron?
"There is no harder thing than to have Glenn Beck outlive your child."-The Onion
by justin007000 on Nov 22, 2009 8:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
just courtesy
and dont call me Shirley.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 22, 2009 8:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
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