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Weekend Discussion: How much umpire review should we have?

This was, needless to say, not the only time someone had a good reason to argue with an umpire in the current World Series.

More photos » Eric Gay - AP

This was, needless to say, not the only time someone had a good reason to argue with an umpire in the current World Series.

Okay, so everyone can agree that there have been some bad calls this postseason.  We can agree that this is not the only time that bad calls have impacted game outcomes.

But what many people in baseball can't agree on is what we should do about it.  So follow me beyond the jump for some people's opinions, then tell me what you think.

Star-divide

Jeff Passan at Yahoo! Sports thinks that every manager should have two challenge flags per game.  On the other hand, Phil Rogers at the Chicago Tribune thinks that this is a bigger deal in the playoffs, and therefore that MLB should move those two extra umpires into a review booth.  No challenges, but those guys review all plays that they think should be reviews.  Neil Best at Newsday thinks that replay reviews are a horrible idea because they would take time, and as we all know, the games are too long.  Then again, everyone's favorite announcer Joe Buck says that calls on the bases, as well as foul calls and the like, should be up for review--though maybe only in the postseason.  And he points out that if you have somebody in the booth, he can review most calls and let you know in, oh, eight seconds or so.

 

Of course, we've already changed the rules this season to allow for some review--but only for home run calls, and the process takes forever.  Then again, even such a half-assed change as that was a Big Deal in this sport--and somehow things stayed more or less the same.  The world didn't come crashing down, but we had a few more correct calls.

 

And I have to note that Bud Selig hates the idea of doing anything for reasons that, as expected, make perfect sense:

"The more baseball people I talk to, there is a lot of trepidation about it and I think their trepidation is fair," Selig told reporters before Game 2 of the World Series on Thursday. "I've spent a lot of time [on this] over the past month and will spend a lot of time in the ensuing months as well. I don't want to overreact. You can make light of that but when you start to think you're going to have more intrusions -- and even if they're good intrusions -- it's something that you have to be very careful about. Affecting the game on the field is not something I really want to do."

Not to mention that the umpires union dislikes the idea, perhaps because it would probably lead to some record of how many times each umpire's rulings are overturned.  And that would be horrible.

 

But, what say you?  Should we expand the system we have to more calls?  Only think about it in the postseason?  Improve the whole review system in some way?  Or, stop arguing about something so stupid and accept a few blatantly incorrect calls as part of the game?

0 recs  |  Comment 52 comments

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Comments

Display:

the technology exists - why not use it?

Well, i say…Nah…the human error and interpretation of umpires calls and rulings are part of the very fabric of the game.
I’d say use the technology to review umpires accuracy to use as a tool tool to grade them. don’t screw up the game with more long interuptions that have umps second guessing themselves.

To understand Israel and the Middle East, you must understand Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson. -Glenn Beck (former cocaine addict and pedophile.)

by Madville on Oct 31, 2009 9:05 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Grading them doesn't do much

I think the worst that can happen is they don’t get the gravy money for working the playoffs. Bleepin Joe West is working the playoffs.

by ol Pete on Oct 31, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Grade e' and then apply the friggin' grades.

To understand Israel and the Middle East, you must understand Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson. -Glenn Beck (former cocaine addict and pedophile.)

by Madville on Oct 31, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm for it.

I used to buy into the whole human error thing, but this postseason has changed my mind. I’m tired of watching games in which shockingly bad umpire calls affect innings. The Posada/Cano/Napoli play was the worst, but there have been too many others for my comfort.

I’m for it on:

  • HR fair/foul/double calls.
  • Tag plays
  • Tag up plays
  • Trap/catch plays.
  • No on balls and strikes. Too fuzzy.

In all cases, there would have to be indisputable evidence to overturn a play. I prefer the “5th umpire in the booth” approach to the on-field challenge approach. I’m also ok with doing it in the postseason only, because the resources are there.
-j

by JinAZ on Oct 31, 2009 9:24 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

agree

i was writing all this as you posted, but you pretty much said what i was going to say. the extra umpires in the booth instead of down the outfield lines (really?) makes way too much sense for baseball to do it. lucky for us, and the game, and the country, ol’ Buddy wont be around much longer.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Oct 31, 2009 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

agreed

I think something needs to be done. Times change, even in baseball. All the fans (including those at the stadium) can see on instant replay that a call was blatantly wrong, and that makes it a lot harder to just accept that human error is part of the game. Even stodgy, traditional tennis has instant replay now.

Instant replay does slow the game down, but I think it will be improve when they get used to it. When instant replay debuted in the NFL, it was horribly slow. But they made a few tweaks, the zebras got used to it, and now it doesn’t slow the game down much at all. I think most fans would be very upset if they tried to take it away.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Oct 31, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not me - I really like the unpredictable human error facet of officiating a ball game.

Unless of course, the bad call goes against my team.

To understand Israel and the Middle East, you must understand Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson. -Glenn Beck (former cocaine addict and pedophile.)

by Madville on Oct 31, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

I also think there should be a challenge function, like the red flag in football, to keep managers from arguing every single close call. I just don’t see why it would be such a pain to have a guy up in the booth with instant access to replay who can call down to an earpiece in the umpires ear and tell them what the correct call is. What’s this gonna add, a minute or two to a game?

I don’t see how this is different than the manager asking the umpires to confer on a call except that they’ll be asking someone who likely has a good view based on the camera. Isn’t it more important to get the call right than to have the charm of nonplayer mistakes affect a game? I guarantee you the fans of the 1985 Cardinals wish the call had been right.

Resisting the move because of the human element argument is holding on to a tradition that is only a tradition because a better one didn’t exist at the time. If there is one thing the other sports do better than baseball, it’s that they are willing to innovate to improve their sport. In baseball, innovation is too often looked upon as a sin.

Definitely a good argument.

by Slyde on Oct 31, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

How are balls and strikes fuzzy?

I’d rather have balls and strikes automated than anything else. WTF was with some of the pitches for Mariano? There is no good answer to some of the absurd umpiring that is done – incompetence, favoritism or corruption? If some [expletive deleted] can’t make a correct call on a pitch 8 inches outside the plate he should do something else.

by ol Pete on Oct 31, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's fuzzy because there isn't a clear demarkation of the top and bottom of the zone

I don’t believe you’ll ever be able to automate balls and strikes with much more precision that we get from the umpires.

Definitely a good argument.

by Slyde on Oct 31, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I like that MLB Gameday has a "fuzzy" area signifying the edge of the strike zone

Works pretty well. But it’s not a hard line, and there I’m comfortable giving umpires free reign to make the decision.

But a pickoff play at 2B that shows the tag happening a foot from the bag? Give me some instant replay, please.
-j

by JinAZ on Oct 31, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not for it

The Don Dekinger plays of the world are part of what make the game special IMO.

"What the hell are spanks????"

by jch24 on Oct 31, 2009 9:32 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Absolutely, positively against expanding it

There are 2 places, in my mind, where it would be OK: Whether a ball is over the fence or not, and whether a HR ball is fair or foul. Except in the playoffs (when there are umps in the OF), umps are simply too far away to make those calls correct all of the time, and they should welcome the help.

Anything else is detrimental to the game. The officials on the field have to be seen as THE authority; if not, every call will get questioned: Balls and strikes. Whether a runner was trying to take out the pivot man on a DP. On and on and on.

How many calls do umpires make in a typical game – 300-400? And how many are we talking about as bad calls – less than 1 a game, on average? And that includes the ones that take super-slo mo reverse angle high resolution replays to see (like the lineout to 1B on Thursday).

Quite honestly, I think if you expand replay, you might as well get rid of the umps.

"You never know how you look through other people's eyes"

by sidnancy on Oct 31, 2009 11:11 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i think you just killed your own argument

“How many calls do umpires make in a typical game – 300-400? And how many are we talking about as bad calls – less than 1 a game”

then doesnt it make sense to use the replay to help the umps on those 1 or 2 calls a game? we absolutely need them for the other 300-400. we cant get rid of them. but i think it would be better for everyone if plays like that Posada play were made right.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Oct 31, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i dont buy this at all

baseball is no more dependent on officials than football, and theyve installed a fairly complete replay system without undermining the authority of the referees.

Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...

by boobs on Oct 31, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The key

is that the umpires would be the ones using the reply to adjust the call. They’re still in charge.
-j

by JinAZ on Oct 31, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No replay period

If we want to eliminate all mistakes from the game, let’s put the ball on a tee, tell the hitter which way to hit the ball; position the fielders where the hitter is going to hit it; set up safety nets beyond where the ball is supposed to go so it can’t go any further; and if someone still messes up call a doover. Batters make mistakes. Fielders make mistakes. Managers and coaches make mistakes. Umpires make mistakes. It happens. Get frustrated. Boo if you are so inclined. Get over it.

by fourrunhomer on Oct 31, 2009 12:03 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

batters, fielders, managers are all the participants in the game

umpires are not. Why can’t we try to make them more right?

Definitely a good argument.

by Slyde on Oct 31, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

why can't you get over it?

Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...

by boobs on Oct 31, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

no, umpires are intermediary judges of the game

it is their job to make sure that the rules are properly enacted during the game. If a player makes a mistake, that’s part of the game because it is the players job, for his team, to not make the mistake. If an umpire makes a mistake, he has failed to properly execute the rulebook, giving an unfair, though likely unintentional, advantage to one team over the other. Over the course of the season, umpire mistakes tend to even out so ultimately it doesn’t have much of an effect on a team’s overall success. However, in the playoffs, one or two mistakes can mean the difference for a team winning the series. If you have the ability to eliminate those mistakes, thereby giving each team a more fair chance to succeed, why wouldn’t you enable it?

Definitely a good argument.

by Slyde on Oct 31, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

justin already conceded that theyre participants

so youre wrong

Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...

by boobs on Oct 31, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

what happens on "action plays" for lack of a better term?

such as an outfielder traps the ball, the umpire calls an out, or the ball is far and the umpire calls it foul. Even if they reverse the call it still fucks up the game, because it stops the immediate action after the call.

i mean sometimes Walt is like a prison shower, you know it is gonna happen, but it isn’t a good thing.

by justin007000 on Oct 31, 2009 1:06 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

There may be categories of plays where replay makes no sense.

I can see trap/catch plays being one of those for the reasons you mention. But just because some won’t work doesn’t mean we can’t incorporate replay on those plays where it could genuinely improve the quality of the officiating.
-j

by JinAZ on Oct 31, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've tried devil's advocating both of these positions a lot, and I never manage to come down on a side.

I can’t think of any really good reasons to expand replay review, and I can’t think of any really good reasons not to. The only effect I see it as having on the game is making things a little more predictable, making analysis slightly more significant (by occasionally removing the variable of human error). In the long run, I think that umpire errors even out: the results of single games are based so much on chance anyway.

It may lengthen the game a little, but with appropriate limitations, probably not by much. I think that most teams will be reluctant to abuse the system out of a sense of traditionalism. I really think that the introduction of home run reviews is indicative of how future expansions would go – there’d be a little sound and fury, but it’s all pretty much the same to a lot of people.

IAN! I'm on traain!

by andromache on Oct 31, 2009 1:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Find a way to eliminate umpires almost completely.

if human error isn’t necessary, then the possibility shouldn’t be there.

A PitchTrax type system should call balls and strikes, and sensors should be used to determine borderline homerun calls and fair/foul calls.

Made from 100% Recycled Awesome,

by 'tHan on Oct 31, 2009 1:51 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

sure

why don’t we just invent some magic flying machine to get players from city to city while we’re at it?

Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...

by boobs on Oct 31, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

posted this on a different blog:

“As for replay, I’m not sure it has a place in baseball, though I’m open to it. There are 30 calls a game where you could make an argument for replay, so yeah that would slow down the game. Balls and strikes, hell no. out/safe calls at the bases, hell no. whether it was a catch or he dropped it? maybe, but then how do you position the runners not involved in the play fairly, since they rely on how the play is called. If there was a runner on base and that happened, the infielder would have had a good chance to throw out a runner trying to advance since the runner would have froze on the line drive. If replay overturns it, then all runners I guess would just be called safe.

long story short, absolutely I would be willing to consider it. But it’s not this easy thing that everyone seems to think it is."

that was all off the top of my head, I didnt really give much thought to other situations that it might screw over someone by overturning it, and I bet they exist. But I’m open to it so long as it’s quick and fair.

I love that not even he knew that he scored and he continued to try to put it in - Evilducks

by sharks on Oct 31, 2009 3:03 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Kill the umpire

would no longer be a catcall at the games
unless you’re Marge

To understand Israel and the Middle East, you must understand Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson. -Glenn Beck (former cocaine addict and pedophile.)

by Madville on Oct 31, 2009 3:16 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

when i saw the top of the grave marker

i knew it was you.

er who posted.

i mean sometimes Walt is like a prison shower, you know it is gonna happen, but it isn’t a good thing.

by justin007000 on Oct 31, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would say no to balls and strikes. Out vs Safe at a bag yes. Fair Foul and Catch no catch yes each runner gets next bag if called a catch initially and runners back to original bag if initially called no catch. Give each team 1 challenge per game. If initial call was incorrect they get 1 final challenge, If call was correct they do not get a second.

by Eric Davis for Manager on Oct 31, 2009 3:42 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't like it personally

I understand the advantages to using it, but I feel like replay is something baseball just doesn’t need. And I think it gets confusing on certain calls- Like where do you put baserunners, etc if a call is overturned? Home runs might be okay, but other than that, I just think we should leave it alone.

People Don't Kill People. Burning Couches Kill People.

by crolfer on Oct 31, 2009 5:24 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Given that

every play during a playoff series is potentially game changing, review has to be instituted in such a way that it doesn’t slow down the game with constant consultation. Sticking the extra umpires in the booth, using the same technology Fox has at its fingertips to call up a replay in a split second, seems like it would largely solve the problem of delays.

The workflow would have to be figured out. What plays would the booth umpires weigh in on and would their ruling – presumably given to the on-field umps through an earpiece – always trump the on-field decision? I think homerun are a no-brainer. It’s an incredibly high impact play with no awkward re-start. Either all runners score or everyone goes back to one. Fair and foul within the field of play is trickier. This is something where replay could be used to make the umpire team more accurate, but it’s clear that an immediate decision is needed, unless players can somehow be said to assume a borderline case is fair until told otherwise. If the technology can provide an immediate decision when runners are on base, then there’s no reason to settle for flawed outcomes. Safe-out plays and tagging up that can be overturned without affecting the outcome of the gameplay (runners, player behavior etc) could be reviewed in the booth as well, though it seems awkward to make this standard. I would still rather have more accurate decisions from the umpires.

You could allow challenge flags, but if replay can be used quickly, for a set of predetermined plays – and is available for the umpires to consult on the fly – I don’t see the necessity other than as a device to heighten the drama.

Yeah, those guys and the Cincinnati Reds. They're a terrible football team. / Because they're a baseball team? / Exactly. You know who's the worst football team? The Philadelphia Flyers. - Best Show

by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Oct 31, 2009 7:38 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

We remember

Denkinger and Richie Garcia because they blew calls – two calls in 25 years. Now we’re seeing multiple blown calls every game. Has the job gotten harder? I don’t believe so. Maybe the current group of umpires just isn’t very good. If your starting staff’s ERA is 9.00, do you campaign for raising the mound, or expanding the strike zone? No. You go find better pitchers. MLB just needs to find better umpires.

The man who will one day be President is, at this moment, lying in his cradle, trying to find some strategic way to get his big toe in his mouth.

-Mark Twain

by poojols on Oct 31, 2009 8:51 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I believe

there are so many complications that it wouldn’t work out. Many of those advocating for replays are not accounting for the consequences of this. Say a line drive past first base is called foul, and then a coach throws his challenge flag. The replay shows it was clearly a fair ball. What happens? Does the player get an automatic double? A single? What happens to the runners on base in this situation?

There’s too many complications involved. Home runs, sure that makes sense as there’s no play in the field with those. Maybe on a tag-out, or a force out, some situations it would make sense, as those are generally at the end of a play. Even that could get complicated—imagine a double steal attempt for example. Replay doesn’t really work for baseball because, unlike NBA and NFL there is no stoppage of play. This is especially true when there are runners on base.

by cokane on Nov 1, 2009 3:03 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

what happens when a home run is reviewed and called a not home run?

I think you could very easily determine standard base movements for reversed calls. I’m certain that a team getting a double instead of a foul ball would be happy with that outcome.

Definitely a good argument.

by Slyde on Nov 1, 2009 7:38 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

agreed

There are already situations where the umpire decides what the likely outcome would have been – interference calls, for example. They could do the same for replays. It may not be perfect, but it’s better than blatantly wrong calls.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Nov 1, 2009 7:59 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

again

we’re only talking about 1 or 2 plays a game, tops. And really it’s only needed during the playoffs, when a simple mistake can cost a team a series.

Definitely a good argument.

by Slyde on Nov 1, 2009 8:50 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

what happens if a player hits a ball that bounces over the wall?

how would anyone figure out where the runner might end up? That’s too complicated, so let’s just call him out.

All sarcasm aside, you can’t just dismiss the idea because the outcome could get complicated. If in your first example a player is held to a single, the offense might be getting screwed, but it’s not getting screwed as much as if it were called a foul ball. Some kind of expanded replay system would increase the accuracy of the calls. I’m not sure why anyone takes stands against it. Why don’t you fuckers want to get it right?

Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...

by boobs on Nov 1, 2009 11:02 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

my comment above wasn't against replay's

it was simply saying that some things need to figured out.

i mean sometimes Walt is like a prison shower, you know it is gonna happen, but it isn’t a good thing.

by justin007000 on Nov 1, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

another wussy agnostic viewpoint

we need more talk radio on this site!!!!!

Definitely a good argument.

by Slyde on Nov 1, 2009 8:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

FUCK REPLAY

EITHER HE IS SAFE OR OUT, WE ARE AT WAR. MOVING ON!!!

i mean sometimes Walt is like a prison shower, you know it is gonna happen, but it isn’t a good thing.

by justin007000 on Nov 2, 2009 12:25 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

nice snarky reply

No need to get all angry about this stuff. My example was a simple one for the purposes of being clear, but obviously there’d be more complicated real cases if we had replay. And no doubt if there was a limited challenge rule, the complicated plays would likely be the ones to get the review. If it’s limited to the playoffs I can have no problem with it. Seems like it would be tedious, dull, confusing, and complicated over 162 games.

There’s more to watching sports than getting it right! I haven’t watched these playoffs, but the past years never seemed to have horrible umpireage.

by cokane on Nov 2, 2009 9:35 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oh, it wasnt that snarky

i even cast away the snark in the second part. anyway, sorry if it came across that way. sure there’s more to sports than getting it right, but given the choice between getting it right more often or getting it right less often, i choose the former. again, sorry if i came across as an ass

Alway the optimist...I like your think kid...

by boobs on Nov 2, 2009 3:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i love it

T and A all the way!

by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 2, 2009 4:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

A little of both sure can't hurt


http://www.sports-wired.com/women/showPhoto.asp?ID=129
http://www.sports-wired.com/women/showPhoto.asp?ID=133

To understand Israel and the Middle East, you must understand Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson. -Glenn Beck (former cocaine addict and pedophile.)

by Madville on Nov 2, 2009 6:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I Propose...

…just having the computers review and electronically call the plays, relaying the messages down to umpires who look and dress like those young ladies. It would make baseball more exciting to watch.

by tonywf on Nov 3, 2009 12:23 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

here

“relaying the messages down to umpires who are those young ladies.”

Fixed

by cokane on Nov 5, 2009 12:55 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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