More speed or just less power?
The guys at Redleg Nation have been having some fun with this quote from Walt Jocketty (via CTR):
“We’ve got guys who are better athletes and create some havoc on the basepaths and do something that is a little of different than we’ve done in the past.”
I think they are determined to make havoc the motto of the 2009 Reds. It begs the question though, given how bad the Reds were at base running last year, couldn't it be said they were pretty good at creating havoc in 2008?
The other question that has been sticking with me through all of this is whether or not the Reds really have that much more team speed this year, or are we just looking at a lot less power? On the surface, it looks like yes, they do. With the addition of Willy Taveras and his 68 SB (at a super 90% rate), the Reds look like they're are primed to burn on the basepaths.
But you know what I see? I see a season in 2008 that is not in line with the rest of Willy's career, when it comes to SB. The three previous seasons he had stolen 34, 33, and 33 bases, never at a rate higher than 78%, which is still excellent, but is not otherworldly like the 90% he pulled in 2008. Do we really expect Taveras to remain freakishly good at stealing bases? Or is it more reasonable to think that he'll fall back to his previous levels of good, but not great, stolen base prowess?
Of course, stolen bases aren't the only way that team speed can be utilized. There are various base advancement opportunities on hits, outs, and wild pitches, etc. Baseball Prospectus tracks all of this with a number they call Equivalent Base Running Runs - essentially the number of runs a player contributes to the team based on the number and quality of the opportunities they had to do so. In 2008, Willy Taveras was 2nd in the league in EqBRR behind Ichiro. Then again, in 2007, he was 104th, three spots behind Adam Dunn. It's hard to say what is a more realistic result for Taveras since the data on BPro only goes back to 2007 (baserunning statistics are a fairly new thing), but I'd be willing to bet that it's closer to the 1.4 runs he had in 2007 than the 11.9 runs he put up in 2008, mainly because I don't think he'll steal as many bases or at the same rate. (It's also worth noting that Corey Patterson was 73rd in 2007, about a half run better than Taveras in 48 fewer opportunities.)
I know it's not all on Taveras to create havoc on the base paths. The Reds also will have more time from Chris Dickerson and Norris Hopper, both of whom should be havoctizing (or is it havoculating?) on the bases more than Dunn or Griffey ever did. And Cherry will probably be out there more as well, though in the time that he played last season, he only added 0.1 runs on the bases, according to BPro. Then again, Ramon Hernandez is worse on the bases than any of the catchers who played last year. Oh, and Joey Votto (-6.6 runs) was the 5th worst baserunner in the big leagues last year. I did not expect that.
Okay, I'm rambling at this point. I think we all know what is going on here. The Reds are clearly going to have less pop in the lineup than they did in 2008, so the only way to sell it to the fans is to pretend there will be a ton more speed. The thing is, all this means is that Dusty Baker will be running at inopportune times even more, and we'll likely see even more outs made on the basepaths as the Reds try to push their team speed down everyone's throat. Man, I'm kinda starting to get depressed about 2009.
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I'm impressed Slyde.
I mean that. Your ability , and the ability of some others like you, to pull out a way to statistically analyze virtually every situation and acquisition is amazing. It’s a lot of fun lookiing at the game in so many different ways, even though I’m not always up to speed on whether Dips is divived by whip to equal sPlat or vice versa.
Keep up the good work.
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Jan 9, 2009 9:44 AM EST reply actions
I'll be honest
I don’t understand the method behind everything I post, but I usually understand the goal of what is being studied. With that, I’d suggest that any new stat be taken with a grain of salt, mainly because things are not always what we expect them to be and often two different people with the same goal can get different results based on differing data sources, methodologies, or just plain mistakes. When it comes to the new stats, usually I’m looking for “the best we’ve got” rather than something definitive. I’d say that EqBRR fits into the “best we’ve got” class.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
From the perspective of stathead who has never used EqBRR:
If Willy was excellent at basestealing for the last 4 years, and I believe he was, then a measurement tool that has him varying this wildly from year-to-year may not be terrificly dependable. At first glance the Adam Dunn 2007 comparison has left me understandably suspicious of this measuring stick. I’ve never thought of Dunn as an above-average baserunner.
How valid do you find this statistical measure, Slyde?
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
Honestly, I don't know a lot about it
but I trust BPro to be at least reasonably accurate. I wouldn’t make player personnel decisions based on it, but I’d definitely take it into consideration in terms of valuing a player.
The thing to remember is that SB is only a slice of what happens in this number. It also takes into account other base running opportunities. But even still, part of the variation for Taveras is because he was a freakishly good base stealer in 2008. He had a large number of SB at an outrageously good rate. 2008 is in a different world in comparison to any of his previous results for SB. The SB portion of his EqBRR accounts for 8 of the runs in the difference between 2007 and 2008. That’s part of why you get such a large variation from 2007 to 2008.
As for Dunn, you may not have considered him above average, but I’ve seen in several other places that he’s average to slightly above average on the bases (I believe the Bill James Handbook has him that way). He may not steal a lot, but he rarely makes out on the bases and he does a pretty good job of going first-to-third. FWIW, BPro had him at about -2 runs last year. Eventually his size is going to catch up to him, and it looks like it may already be starting.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
Solid job here, Slyde. Thanks.
An justin thank’s ewe, two.
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
optimistic
I’m going to choose to be optimistic until proved otherwise. My gut says this is a 70-75 win lineup (even considering the pitching strength).
MLB Network showed the 95 Sea/NYY playoff highlights last evening before the national championship game. Griffey scoring from first on Edgar’s double was just as amazing as I remembered it. A comment that I had never heard before was “he looked like a deer running, the feet just barely touched the ground”. Junya was scorching earth between second and third and he used perfect technique rounding the bases (a lost art).
I’m not sure baserunning statistics will ever be “kosher” with me but I do like the phrasing the best we got. The best baserunners dont always have the most footspeed, and i’d rank Pujols very high up on the list of best baserunners.
surprisingly
Pujols does not do too well in EqBRR, he’s been in the negative the last two seasons. This is part of the problem with BPro’s numbers though, is that we rarely know the methodology behind what they do. That’s why I don’t typically reference them. Unfortunately, there aren’t a lot of freely available baserunning stats on the net.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
Is there a universally-applauded baserunner whose EqBRR verifies this consistently?
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
well
they only have the data for 2 years, but Ichiro, Jose Reyes, Jimmy Rollins, Chone Figgins, Grady Sizemore, Matt Holliday, Carlos Beltran, and a few others have come out consistently good both years. Taveras could be good as well, but given that I don’t think he’ll repeat his SB success from 2008, I suspect he’ll more likely finish around +2 or +3 runs next year than at +11.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
Ah, 2-year sample size. That'd do it.
Small sample sizes can lead to the worst in statistical analysis, as you well know. Cherry had a difference of 137 points in his BA from ’07 to ’08. And according to FayMath™, that means that this year he will hit .463! Buy your palyoff tickets now!
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
by PeteyHendrix on Jan 9, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
On RedsZone, they called it Faybermetrics
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
ME LIKEY
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
The Reds getting thrown out on the base paths
will cause me to break a many, many things near my desk this season. I’m thinking of buying cheap tchotchkas just to keep my lamps, speakers and external hard drive safe.
All Mickey Mouse films are founded on the motif of leaving home in order to learn what fear is.
Wait til you see all the poorly executed bunts Dusty has dialed up!
by Brendanukkah on Jan 9, 2009 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
Catch It!

All Mickey Mouse films are founded on the motif of leaving home in order to learn what fear is.
by Man Mountain on Jan 9, 2009 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
we still have mark berry as a third base coach
so baserunning blunders will still be a staple of cincinnati baseball.
i’m curious – were willy’s 68 stolen bases the only 68 times he got on base?
by Daedalus on Jan 9, 2009 11:23 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
interesting
it disappoints me that Walt and the boys cant just be honest with us fans. the kind of moves that Walt has made this winter show that he plans on this being a rebuilding year, but of course he couldnt publicly say that. he has to make these placating statements about “more speed” and “creating havoc” because he’s gotta tell us something. it insults our intelligence.
unfortunately, he’s probably doing the right thing. all the idiots eat this “team speed” crap up with a spoon.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 9, 2009 12:44 PM EST reply actions
Cas and veggies
Castellini is used to selling produce. Im pretty sure I’m looking at a head of lettuce and being told its a steak.
Nah….
Honesty is overated Charlie
Mads, he is a crazy old man. Plus we have kinda had the same sabrametric evolution togeather.
Justin
I agree with you
in that it sucks for those fans that can see through Walt’s comments and know they are horse crap.
But I also think that it is not neccesary for the G.M. to come out and tell the fans that this is season is essentially a punt. I think that would have worse repercussions in fan interest and ticket revenues.
I think that is the responsibility of the media and journalists to comment on and confront Jocko about. My problem lies not with the G.M. playing up our moderate strengths and ignoring our glaring weaknesses, but with local media not calling him out for it.
"Here's to you, Mr. Ceremonial First First Pitch Thrower Outer"
I'm not necessarily faulting Jocketty for BSing the public
I’m just not sure his BS is accurate either.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
Taveras burning up the basepaths
Great blog.
One possible reason for Taveras improvement on the basepaths is he is learning the pitchers moves. Joe Morgan used to have a book on pitchers. Maybe a coach in Colorado worked on that facet of the game with him because they realized how effective he could be on the basepaths.
His outstanding success is not limited to 2008’s major league record 90% success rate. If you remember back to 2007, Taveras had leg problems and missed a lot of games. However, in spite of this in his last 59 games he tried to steal 22 times and was successful 21 times (95.5%).
I may be wrong but Taveras has been successful in 89 of his last 97 attempts (92%). I tend to think that this dramatic increase in his success rate is due to knowledge and not a law of averages question. His increase in the number of attempts is because of his high success rate.
I would be surprised to see his success rate dip below 85% this year. Assuming 150 healthy starts I would guess 75 – 85 SB this year.
75-85 SB?
21 players in modern baseball have done that and only once since 1992. And you think Willy Taveras will do it? I wish I was that optimistic. I’ll be shocked if he goes over 50.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
Follow the company line
I think it is safe to say that prior to Taveras no one had ever been successful in 92 out of 100 SB attempts at any time in their career.
If Taveras gets on base there is a pretty good chance he is going to attempt to steal not only because of his success rate but because as you have pointed out causing havoc is now the company line.
The only question is will he get on enough to play 150 games. My thought is he will be good for about .5 SB per start.
reply button!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! mmk?
i can’t remember what it’s like having someone steal more than 30 something bases. i was too young when ED did his 50 something. (am i forgetting someone?)
off the top of my head
Larkin stole 50+ the last playoff season and Deion went for about that many also one year, I think. Other than that…..maybe Bip Roberts one year?!?
re
I think it is safe to say that prior to Taveras no one had ever been successful in 92 out of 100 SB attempts at any time in their career.
I’d be willing to bet that’s not true. I don’t feel like going through the play index, but to take one example Carlos Beltran SB/CS from 02-04:
35/7
41/4
42/3
Depending on how they shook out he probably did it. And that’s just the first guy I looked for (albeit possibly the greatest percentage base stealer ever).
ok, I fooled around with this a bit
If you count Beltran’s 6-6 in the ’04 playoffs he went 92-100 from late ’02 through ’04. He also went 91-100 from late ’99 through June of ’03. Others can take a crack at Tim Raines or whomever.
"Crack." "Tim Raines"
You did that on purpose!
by Brendanukkah on Jan 11, 2009 9:22 AM EST up reply actions
For Raines
I’ve found a couple of streaks of 93-102 and a 94-104.
How about some local flavor?
From Sept 19, 1986 to Sept 8, 1988, Eric Davis went 94-101 (93%), including one streak where he was safe on 42 of 44 attempts. Bad. Ass.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
he had 80 in 86
but then again he could do everything but stay healthy
oh right
that was the year he had 37 homers, right? three homers shy of becoming the first 40-40 guy (guess it would have been 40-80).
In '86 he was 27-80
In ’87 he went 37-50.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
the good ole days
When the minor league system pumped out ED, Kal, Oneill, Tracer, Sabo, Oliver, Larkin, Stillwell, Dibble, Charlton, etc. in a short time span.
Those were good times!
happy days are here again
votto, bruce, alonso, soto, frazier, stubbs, valaika, francisco, thompson, lotzkar, dickerson
Well, they aren’t here yet, but happy days are here soon, no?
if they can get here
and be here with Cueto and Volquez we could have some fun.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions!"- Dr. Stephen T. Colbert DFA.
by justin007000 on Jan 11, 2009 7:58 PM EST up reply actions

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