Can Joey Votto win the NL ROY?
A few weeks ago I said this:
If it weren't for Geovany Soto (.294/.371/.514), I'd say that Votto has a good shot at the NL Rookie of the Year Award
Well now I'd like to change my tune a bit. Since I made that statement on September 4th, Votto has continued to be on a tear while Soto has cooled off some and now their offensive numbers for the season are damn near identical. Let's take a look:
Player PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS+ TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
Votto 571 511 66 149 31 2 22 79 7 5 57 101 .292 .364 .489 119 250 0 1 9 2 7
Soto 561 493 66 141 35 2 23 86 0 1 61 121 .286 .364 .505 122 249 0 5 6 2 11
Soto does still have a slight edge offensively, mainly because of the 4 extra doubles and the extra home run. Their OPS+ is, for all intents and purposes, identical and I think you could argue that Votto makes up for the slight difference in SLG with his slight advantage in AVG. Either way, both of those numbers could easily shift in the other player's favor during the remaining 4 games.
Since the offensive numbers are basically a wash, voters from the BBWA will have to look elsewhere to differentiate the two. This is where Votto is going to have some trouble. Soto plays an important defensive position on the team with the best record in the league. He also has the advantage of having a reputation of "working well with the pitchers," something Votto can't receive credit for. And while Soto hasn't been outstanding defensively, he's definitely held his own. Justin's system has him at 1.9 runs above average defensively and he's thrown out about 27% of would-be base stealers, which puts firmly in the middle of the pack for the league.
Votto hasn't been a slouch defensively either. His error numbers are definitely too high, but he makes up for that with some of the best range at the position. Justin's system has him as the 4th best defensive 1B in the league, though admittedly there are some shortcomings in his system for 1B, just as there are for catchers. Of course, the big problem facing Votto here is that he is playing one of the easiest defensive positions on the field while Soto is playing perhaps the hardest position. This is why, despite Votto leading in offensive runs above replacement and defensive runs above replacement, Soto takes the lead in total value once you adjust for position (again using Justin's system):
Player BRAR FRAR PosAdj TtlVal
Votto 32.9 10.58 -7.4 36.1
Soto 30.9 1.88 8.0 40.7
It's still a tight match, but Votto definitely has some work to do in making his case. And as we all know, most writers won't look at something like Total Value or VORP or anything along those lines. The biggest obstacle facing Votto may just be the 86-79 lead that Soto has in RBI. But then, you all could easily guess by now that Soto has had 80 more runners on base for him than Votto this season. How big of a difference is that? Votto has driven in 16.9% of the runners that he has had on base for him this season. Give him 80 more base runners and his 7 RBI deficit becomes a 7 RBI lead.
On top of that, Votto has had more big hits this season than Soto. He's had 14 hits to give his team the lead and 5 to tie the game compared to Soto's 10 and 4. Also, Votto has hit very well in late and close situations (.313/.382/.488) and with RISP (.289/.414/.500) while Soto is slightly less good in L&C (.303/.389/.395) and RISP (.264/.358/.472). So, situationally I think Votto closes the gap on Soto, if only slightly.
Ultimately though, I think Soto will win out because his team was better than the Reds. That's a shame for Votto because he's a very deserving candidate, but then so is Soto. It sure would be nice to see Votto win, and I think he has a case, but it's not so strong that I'll be outraged if he doesn't win. Besides, the Cubs will need some salve for their wounds after choking in the playoffs anyway.
What do you think? Does he have a shot?
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Rec'd for using the word salve
And I agree with this post in its entirety. Plus, I didn’t want to bother with a fanpost but the Fay article today made me howl with laughter.
Vote Pops in '08. I promise nothing and I'll do it!
by Pops Daniels on Sep 25, 2008 10:38 AM EDT 0 recs
I shall defer to MM on this
He summed it up quite nicely last night.
"Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est."
by jch24 on
Sep 25, 2008 11:57 AM EDT
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Sorry
missed the game thread. Nicely put.
Vote Pops in '08. I promise nothing and I'll do it!
by Pops Daniels on
Sep 25, 2008 2:11 PM EDT
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except that i pulled a justin
and typed “incompetent” instead of “incompetence”
So, who’s incompetence now, Manfred Honeyacre Mountain?
Kentuck Arts Festival: October 18th.
Details at Sinful Savage Tigers
by Man Mountain on
Sep 25, 2008 2:19 PM EDT
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Yeah, but
In this medium, who really gives a shit.
Vote Pops in '08. I promise nothing and I'll do it!
by Pops Daniels on
Sep 25, 2008 2:32 PM EDT
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My favorite response to this story was from BBTF poster "Cabbage"
Patterson can’t hit that either? geeze.
"You never want to give up a 7-0 lead, in your rival's ballpark, that would put them in first place. Never want to do that." - Ron Darling
by Slyde on
Sep 25, 2008 10:31 PM EDT
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meh.
You should remember this thread from August 12th, started by Griffey’s Animal, in which about 10 of us do better than that.
Kentuck Arts Festival: October 18th.
Details at Sinful Savage Tigers
by Man Mountain on
Sep 26, 2008 4:42 AM EDT
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I guess that's why I liked it
because I made the same joke.
"You never want to give up a 7-0 lead, in your rival's ballpark, that would put them in first place. Never want to do that." - Ron Darling
by Slyde on
Sep 26, 2008 8:10 AM EDT
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No.
There are 2 reasons Soto will be ROY over Votto:
1. He deserves it. As you stated, while they have similar offensive numbers, Soto’s defensive position makes him much more valuable. The voters know/think this, also.
2. The stuff that shouldn’t count but does – team record, RBI, the fact that no one’s been paying attention to the Reds or their players since June.
It’s somewhat disappointing that the Reds have 3 rookies play important roles this year, but none will win ROY; worse, one of the Flubs will. But, yea, seeing them self-destruct in the playoffs will soothe the hurt some.
Often wrong, never uncertain.
by sidnancy on Sep 25, 2008 10:55 AM EDT 0 recs
he should take 2nd place
but he really doesnt have a shot to beat out Soto. he’s the catcher for the team with the best record in baseball. if i had one, my vote would be for Soto. he might have a fight for 2nd though as Jair Jurrjens should take some votes.
but luckily we all know Votto is going to be the better player over the next 10 years. he’s really becoming my favorite Reds player.
"for integrity of races and the game" - Dusty Baker
by Charlie Scrabbles on Sep 25, 2008 10:55 AM EDT 0 recs
I thought about mentioning Jurrjens
but I figured his numbers weren’t so good that he would really have a shot over Votto.
"You never want to give up a 7-0 lead, in your rival's ballpark, that would put them in first place. Never want to do that." - Ron Darling
by Slyde on
Sep 25, 2008 11:15 AM EDT
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i dont think he's good enough either
but some might see that 3.68 ERA from a rookie and throw some votes his way. i think Jurrjens is a solid 3rd place, but its obvious that these people dont care what i think.
"for integrity of races and the game" - Dusty Baker
by Charlie Scrabbles on
Sep 25, 2008 1:04 PM EDT
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The clutchiness argument
is bolstered by Votto’s advantage in WPA (1.71, 0.97) and WPA/LI (1.95, 1.50), which I’m sure will register with the BBWAA. Votto also may have a slight baserunning advantage. But yeah, it’s gonna be tough to top Soto in ROY voting for the reasons you give. A few weeks ago Peter Gammons was talking about Soto as an MVP candidate. Plus, the last two NL 1B ROYs (Howard, Pujols) put up monster seasons.
I just noticed how ridiculously high Votto’s linedrive rate is this year – 25.9%. If you gave him some extra singles to normalize his babip with the expected, this race could be a closer call.
by ken on Sep 25, 2008 11:17 AM EDT 0 recs
No
Soto is a catcher (tougher position) and plays in the #3 media market for the team with the best record in baseball. And he started the ASG in front of the largest collection of baseball writers/voters during the season.
It’s not fair but it’s true. Votto would have to blow him out of the water to win.
"Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est."
by jch24 on Sep 25, 2008 11:41 AM EDT 0 recs
FWIW
That’s what I like about Justin’s system. It adjusts for position difficulty. So, a really good defensive first baseman will have more value defensively than a crappy catcher, even though the catcher players a tougher position. Unfortunately for Joey, Soto is not a crappy catcher.
"You never want to give up a 7-0 lead, in your rival's ballpark, that would put them in first place. Never want to do that." - Ron Darling
by Slyde on
Sep 25, 2008 11:51 AM EDT
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Are you being a wise guy?
Every once in a while I like to do analysis. It reminds me that blogs can be more than just game threads.
"You never want to give up a 7-0 lead, in your rival's ballpark, that would put them in first place. Never want to do that." - Ron Darling
by Slyde on
Sep 25, 2008 11:49 AM EDT
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Like on Monday when I'm gonna post an S.I.S. diary
by chandrathan on
Sep 25, 2008 11:50 AM EDT
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About the Steelers/Ravens game?
"Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est."
by jch24 on
Sep 25, 2008 11:50 AM EDT
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I was encouraged to keep trying when I attempt wit
So there you go.
by Brendanukkah on
Sep 25, 2008 12:09 PM EDT
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My gift to you guys!
*may or may not be safe for work
by chandrathan on Sep 25, 2008 11:58 AM EDT 0 recs
Saw that this morning on reddit
And giggled my butt off.
"Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est."
by jch24 on
Sep 25, 2008 11:58 AM EDT
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this sort of thing makes me wonder...
do you think the graphic designer or whoever that was working on it was trying to get it done before the deadline, brings the work home…and then his wife walks in on him trying to draw a pair of maracas over a pornstar’s johnson and suddenly the poor guy has LOTS of ’splainin to do? Anyone else think of stuff like that?
...because there's already someone posing as Jacob Brumfield
by Cy Schourek on
Sep 25, 2008 1:14 PM EDT
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nope
"for integrity of races and the game" - Dusty Baker
by Charlie Scrabbles on
Sep 25, 2008 1:31 PM EDT
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No
You got way too much time on your hands.
"Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est."
by jch24 on
Sep 25, 2008 1:35 PM EDT
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"time"
Kentuck Arts Festival: October 18th.
Details at Sinful Savage Tigers
by Man Mountain on
Sep 25, 2008 2:15 PM EDT
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Code words
There are children present.
"Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est."
by jch24 on
Sep 25, 2008 2:22 PM EDT
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"children"
Kentuck Arts Festival: October 18th.
Details at Sinful Savage Tigers
by Man Mountain on
Sep 25, 2008 2:31 PM EDT
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No, children was right
He just meant to type “presenting.”
by Brendanukkah on
Sep 25, 2008 2:39 PM EDT
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"type"
Kentuck Arts Festival: October 18th.
Details at Sinful Savage Tigers
by Man Mountain on
Sep 25, 2008 2:52 PM EDT
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"Man" Mountain
"You never want to give up a 7-0 lead, in your rival's ballpark, that would put them in first place. Never want to do that." - Ron Darling
by Slyde on
Sep 25, 2008 3:02 PM EDT
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innuendo?
in-your-endo!
The Todd’d
...because there's already someone posing as Jacob Brumfield
by Cy Schourek on
Sep 25, 2008 5:01 PM EDT
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I used that line on my wife the other day
and she was offended. I was disappointed that I had to explain that it was a “the Todd” line. I mean, I even did the high five thing.
"You never want to give up a 7-0 lead, in your rival's ballpark, that would put them in first place. Never want to do that." - Ron Darling
by Slyde on
Sep 25, 2008 5:33 PM EDT
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between this
and the “the 80’s will be around forever!” line from earlier in the summer, I’m beginning to fear for the sanity of Mrs. Slyde.
although I’m sure that role playing when you wear that silvery superhero suit must be erotic.
...because there's already someone posing as Jacob Brumfield
by Cy Schourek on
Sep 25, 2008 6:52 PM EDT
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if mrs. slyde isn't up for a little in her endo humor, i'm not sure about her
by chandrathan on
Sep 25, 2008 6:55 PM EDT
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What, not one joke about 'nukkah's dear old mum here?
"Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est."
by jch24 on
Sep 26, 2008 10:13 AM EDT
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Votto is good but won't win it
Soto plays on the division winner in a more demanding physical role and is higher profile
Votto might be the better player long term, but for now it’s Soto’s award
by SullyBaseball on Sep 25, 2008 12:33 PM EDT 0 recs
Question for Reds fans
I haven’t been to Great American Ballpark but I was at Riverfront a while ago
I always liked Cincy and always thought there were good fans there.
(I was there while davey Johnson was managing)
My question is do you miss Riverfront?
Not the stadium but going to a place that brings back so many great memories?
I pose the question here
But I am curious what your take is
by SullyBaseball on Sep 25, 2008 12:36 PM EDT 0 recs
I miss Roy Oswalt not pitching there
Cueto is going for his 10th win tonight, but he has to face the biggest Reds killer of them all to do it. Sure, he’s got Berkman standing on that grassy knoll (with the flagpole, in center field), but when it comes to killing the Reds, Oswalt can usually just act alone.
by Brendanukkah on
Sep 25, 2008 3:39 PM EDT
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Hell of an execution
One shiny rec for you, sir.
"Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est."
by jch24 on
Sep 25, 2008 3:42 PM EDT
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No.
Hey Dusty...Are you sure you're OK? You might need an MRI.
by Paul Householder on Sep 25, 2008 4:52 PM EDT 0 recs
Paul sums it up quite eloquently.
Ibn Khaldoun and Hulrich Zwingli - now that's real reform, Mr. McCain.
by Madville on Sep 25, 2008 5:44 PM EDT 0 recs
Yes.
Hey Dusty...Are you sure you're OK? You might need an MRI.
by Paul Householder on
Sep 26, 2008 12:14 PM EDT
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(Thanks, BTW)
Hey Dusty...Are you sure you're OK? You might need an MRI.
by Paul Householder on
Sep 26, 2008 1:57 PM EDT
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