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Trent "hearing" the 3rd player is Wilkin Castillo

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From what I'm hearing, the other player to be named is switch-hitting catcher Wilkin Castillo. Castillo has had a down year offensively, but something that's interesting is here's a catcher who has played every other position (besides pitching) except for first base and center.

Sounds like all 3 players are players who were more highly rated a year or so ago but have had some falls from grace due to injury or plateau in performance. Really, the only question is whether the return is better than 2 1st round comp picks. Also of note:

Adam Dunn may be looking for $100-$120 mil, but who knows about the off-season market. I'm sure that's what his agents are telling him he can get. The thing is, with a guy like Adam Dunn, he's a love-him, hate-him guy. There are many teams that appreciate when he does and other that focus on what he can't do. I've got the feeling the Reds' current front office is in the latter group. Thing is, that split will hurt his leverage. Either way, he's gonna get paid a lot of money and the Reds were scared he'd accept arbitration.

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6'0" and 200 pounds.

Wilkin is one of those new cute little catchers.

"Being a human cannonball is not just a job, Pee Wee. It's a career."

by Fat Vegas Alan on Aug 13, 2008 11:28 AM EDT reply actions  

And gg, howzabout a link to CTR?

"Being a human cannonball is not just a job, Pee Wee. It's a career."

by Fat Vegas Alan on Aug 13, 2008 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Castillo's not a bad prospect.

He is quite versatile and, although not ranked as one of Arizona’s top 10 prospects in the preseason, he was named by Baseball America the Diamondback’s best defensive catcher.

2008 has been rough for him at the plate - 6-41.245 .294 .347 in AAA. He has had his moments, though, having gone 6-46-.302 .333 .437 in AA in 2007 when he made the Southern League all-star team.

Interestingly, he hit better in the 2005 in the pitcher-friendly Low-A Midwest League (.302 .346 .411) than he did in 2006 in the hitter’s haven that is the High-A California League (.285 .329 .390.) He doesn’t strike out nor walk much. He has developing power but isn’t likley to be a slugger. He can run, as his 18 SBs in 2007 show.

So, if it’s Dallas Buck, Micah Owings and Wilkin Castillo, that’s not bad. I’mnot jumping up and down, but it’s a decent return. I’d rather have had Kotchman and Marek that Atlanta got from Anaheim for Teixiera, but this will do for now.

We Are ... Marshall!

by Thundering Turtle on Aug 13, 2008 11:35 AM EDT reply actions  

I think it's a return that tops two sandwich picks

and that’s good enough for me. Plus, the Reds saved $2 million – not to mention the signing bonuses they would have had to pay.

I’m more a hello man and a welcome man than a good-bye man. And to me Adam Dunn was more a person than a player.

by Slyde on Aug 13, 2008 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

I love the Reds but I hate being a Reds fan.

“We’ve traded the league’s home run leader. We got our backup catcher of the future. Well, at least we’ll have one less signing bonus to pay.”

"Being a human cannonball is not just a job, Pee Wee. It's a career."

by Fat Vegas Alan on Aug 13, 2008 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

well, that's not all we're getting

I think Owings, Buck, and Castillo is a pretty good return (if it is in fact the return). The point of the signing bonus comment was just to emphasize that there is still risk to going for the draft picks. Dunn wasn’t coming back next year, so I think this return is better than holding out for the draft picks.

I’m more a hello man and a welcome man than a good-bye man. And to me Adam Dunn was more a person than a player.

by Slyde on Aug 13, 2008 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

agreed

now that the tears have finally subsided, i think i can look a little more clearly at the deal. Owings looks like he can be a solid league-average pitcher, and while Buck isnt a legitimate bona-fide prospect, he is still intriguing. that seems like a reasonable haul to me for this deal.

with Castillo thrown in as well i think it tips the deal to us, even if just slightly.  we need a backup catcher for next year and he should be able to handle that.  i dont see any of these guys contributing on the level Dunn did, but thats not the point.  those two picks likely wouldnt have netted this kind of haul, so overall im satisfied with the return.  and, oh my, what if he had ACCEPTED arbitration?!!

by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 13, 2008 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

with Castillo thrown in as well i think it tips the deal to us, even if just slightly. we need a backup catcher for next year and he should be able to handle that. i dont see any of these guys contributing on the level Dunn did, but thats not the point. those two picks likely wouldnt have netted this kind of haul, so overall im satisfied with the return. and, oh my, what if he had ACCEPTED arbitration?!!

I’m more a hello man and a welcome man than a good-bye man. And to me Adam Dunn was more a person than a player.

by Slyde on Aug 13, 2008 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

thanks

how does that happen? and how do you know how to fix it? are you a magician? how many fingers am i holding up? what did i have for lunch?

by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 13, 2008 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

the old triple click allows you to select it and then ctrl-c copies it

other than that, I don’t know why it happens. I think it’s God’s way of punishing people who don’t use the preview button.

I’m more a hello man and a welcome man than a good-bye man. And to me Adam Dunn was more a person than a player.

by Slyde on Aug 13, 2008 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Come on

“We need a back-up catcher” is justification for “I think it tips the deal to us”???

Back-up catchers are a dime a dozen; remember, we signed Bako to a minor-league deal and he’s only making $750k this year.

As I said below, while you wouldn’t get three “maybe” players in the draft, you’d have a much better chance of getting at least one “wow” player.

Often wrong, never uncertain.

by sidnancy on Aug 13, 2008 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

i dont disagree

but Owings has legit upside. his numbers last year are pretty solid, and if he can cut down on HRs (nothing says he will or even can, but it could happen. “upside”) he could be a solid 2-3.

i dont much care for the catcher, like you said, they are dime a dozen, but he’ll play for league minimum which is a few hundred grand less than Paul Bako. and he’s better than Bako. so he does have a little positive value, if only a little.

apparently Buck was a stud before he got hurt and looks like he’s still capable of it. he’s not Jarrod Parker, but he’s intriguing nonetheless.

the last time the Reds had supplemental picks, they got Frazier and Lotzkar. those guys have “wow” potential surely, but who’s to say Walt knows what he’s doing when it comes to drafting?

too many “what-ifs” and projections go into all this, and it should be said that this team could have come out doing alot worse than it did in this deal. i think these guys are a bit better than 2 picks. maybe not far and away better, but a bit.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 13, 2008 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the point about Walt's ability to draft is a good one

Not sure if Walt has any idea how to draft, but the point is that it isn’t his preferred tool for improving his club.

Their farm system existed primarily to serve as a tool for acquiring proven players, a strategy that proved to be quite successful. Some would question whether that strategy is still viable, but clearly that is what Walt is most comfortable with and it likely played a factor in why he went in the direction he did.

by bengalred on Aug 13, 2008 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right.

I’m not really bothered by the return from either the Dunn or the KGJ trades.

What bothers me is that neither of those guys will be on the team in 2009. (Not that I will miss the late-career KGJ). And what bothers me is that Kevin Mench and Scott Podsednik might be. And what bothers me is that an 80-win season will still seem very far away.

"Being a human cannonball is not just a job, Pee Wee. It's a career."

by Fat Vegas Alan on Aug 13, 2008 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right

but I’ll still take those guys over CoreyP

by saboscork on Aug 14, 2008 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

From Sickels
A switch-hitting Dominican catcher with a quick bat, Castillo shows intriguing line-drive hitting skills. His strike zone judgment is weak and he doesn’t draw many walks, but he has a knack for making contact even on pitches he shouldn’t swing at. He probably won’t hit for a great deal of power, but if he can keep the batting average up he should be useful. Castillo is quite athletic and has good speed for a catcher, though he doesn’t use it very well on the bases and gets caught stealing too much. He has a strong arm and good defensive skills, and is athletic enough that he can even play middle infield in an emergency. I don’t think he’ll hit quite enough to start for a major league team, but he should get to the majors as a backup and could have a long career due to his versatility. Grade C.

Sounds like a Dusty guy to me.

I’m more a hello man and a welcome man than a good-bye man. And to me Adam Dunn was more a person than a player.

by Slyde on Aug 13, 2008 11:38 AM EDT reply actions  

"Dusty guy"

“switch-hitting Latin catcher who can play the infield”. sounds to me like there’s a new love machine in town.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 13, 2008 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

His strike zone judgment is weak and he doesn’t draw many walks, but he has a knack for making contact even on pitches he shouldn’t swing at. He probably won’t hit for a great deal of power, but if he can keep the batting average up he should be useful. Castillo is quite athletic and has good speed for a catcher, though he doesn’t use it very well on the bases and gets caught stealing too much.

I think WLW is organizing the welcome parade as we speak.

Kentuck Arts Festival: October 18th.
Details at Sinful Savage Tigers

by Man Mountain on Aug 13, 2008 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

When I was looking at the list of potential PTBNLs

I figured Scherzer was out of the question. So I then figured the best pair would be Owings and Castillo. So this isn’t horrible.

Castillo seems like he’ll be a handy guy to have around. He’ll have value as a utility guy, and if it helps push junk like Bako and Valentin off the roster, so much the better.

I could live with a catching duo next season of Hanigan and Castillo.

by cesarhernandez on Aug 13, 2008 11:47 AM EDT reply actions  

What's a "catching duo"?

Don’t we need a trio?

"Being a human cannonball is not just a job, Pee Wee. It's a career."

by Fat Vegas Alan on Aug 13, 2008 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, that's rule three of the Dusty Manifesto

1. The CF will hit leadoff
2. Walks stink
3. Carry at least 3 catchers
4. Swing early, swing often
5. Relief appearances for starters are fine, as long as they throw at least 50 pitches
6. Toothpicks are always made of maple, never ash

by bengalred on Aug 13, 2008 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

#6 is wrong

Those are Australian chewing sticks infused with tea tree oil to you, mister.

How can such a good looking man be so bad at getting to first base?

by jch24 on Aug 13, 2008 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Rrrrriiiiiiiight.....

Must be the tea tree oil that allows Dusty to “hear” the stats

by bengalred on Aug 13, 2008 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

rec'd

this is the kind of info that makes me love this site !

AKA redsfan68 Nobody listens to Andrew

by nlt-andrew68 on Aug 13, 2008 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

It seems a little early to try moving Owings.

I’ve been a fan of Micah Owings for a few years, and yes, it’s more because of his bat than his arm, but I think moving him anywhere right now would be premature. He really only has about a year and a half in the minors (less than 200 innings) and he still put up a 4.30 ERA with a 1.28 WHIP in the majors last year. He needs to re-gain some control and do a better job keeping the ball in the park, but his stuff is above average and even if he just manages to pitch like he did last year, we end up with an above average starter who’s gonna give us some of the runs he gives up back just because he can rake. Given how our bench usually looks, he’ll probably be the best hitter on it when he’s not pitching.

Of course, if the pitching thing doesn’t work out then moving him to the OF seems like the best option, but it just seems silly to try and move a 25-year-old starter who has already experienced success in the major leagues after half a rough season.

by Geki on Aug 13, 2008 11:57 AM EDT reply actions  

There you go.

Moving things around just for the sake of it.

"Being a human cannonball is not just a job, Pee Wee. It's a career."

by Fat Vegas Alan on Aug 13, 2008 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Owings to LF

I don’t suggest that the man stop pitching, but in his spare time, it serves us well to exploit his hitting talents.

by PeteyHendrix on Aug 13, 2008 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

When he was used as a DH on his offdays during interleague,

it ended up seeming to affect his pitching the next time out.

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 13, 2008 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

"2 1st round comp picks"

A technical point, but there isn’t a guaranteed first-round pick for the team losing Dunn. Something like the top 15 picks are protected, and if a team signs two Type As it obviously can’t give both losing teams a first-round pick. So at best you only obtain a late first-rounder, and there is a good chance that you pick in the second round (which follows the sandwich round). In general I feel like people around here have been overvaluing the Dunn draft picks. Pwings, Buck and Castillo sound like they’re worth considerably more.

by ken on Aug 13, 2008 11:58 AM EDT reply actions  

I disagree.

I’m sorry, but I don’t see how Owings, Buck, or Castillo are anything special.

Owings – Possibly hurt, possibly a back-of-the-rotation guy if his recent struggles aren’t a new lack of ability, and has always given up a lot of HRs (which will fit nicely in GABP). If all else fails, he’s a better pinch hitter than any of the dreck we have.
Buck – Coming off TJ surgery, was a 3rd round pick befoe that, and has made it as far as high-A ball. He’s a long way away.
Castillo – Poor strike zone judgement, runs fast but poorly, has no power, and now can’t hit for average.

Three guys with major, major issues and not alot of upside. I’d rather take my chances that with two extra chances in the top 60 (at worst), I’d find at least one with higher upside.

Often wrong, never uncertain.

by sidnancy on Aug 13, 2008 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

i feel like you are saying what I am thinking

Dunn was probably the top hitter available on the market. The Reds should have gotten more than 3 prosepects who each have a potential fatal flaw. I am hoping that atleast one of these players becomes a solid major leaguer, but I feel like the Reds gave up a future Hall of Famer, so they really should have gotten one high level prospect who is close to being big league ready, and one low level prospect who has some upside. I would feel better with the draft picks.

The Dusty Path to the World Series!*

*Note this is not an endorsment of Dusty Baker.

by justin007000 on Aug 13, 2008 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Isn't Owings a "high level prospect who is close to being big league ready?"

In fact, he’s already been in the big leagues. And Buck is certainly a low-level prospect with some upside.

by bengalred on Aug 13, 2008 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Owings is missing a start on Wednesday because of arm problems

and Buck is a risk because he is 24 years old in single A, and has already had TJS. At best Owenings is going to be a mid-level pitcher. I would like a little more of a sure bet (handicapping that with the understanding that no prospect is a “sure bet”)

The Dusty Path to the World Series!*

*Note this is not an endorsment of Dusty Baker.

by justin007000 on Aug 13, 2008 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Have you been drinking?

You went from Owings (Correct) to Owenings (not correct). I kinda like Owenings though

"I got a list of demands written on the palm of my hands. I ball my fist and you're gonna know where I stand. We're living hand to mouth! Hand to mouth!"

by 3 Fast 3 Furious on Aug 13, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wait a minute...

Did we get Buck Owens from the DBacks?

If so, I’ll buy Walt a beer.

"Being a human cannonball is not just a job, Pee Wee. It's a career."

by Fat Vegas Alan on Aug 13, 2008 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hell, Spike Owen could help this team right now.

"I got a list of demands written on the palm of my hands. I ball my fist and you're gonna know where I stand. We're living hand to mouth! Hand to mouth!"

by 3 Fast 3 Furious on Aug 13, 2008 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jess Owens?

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 13, 2008 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

e

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 13, 2008 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Buck

is in A+ because he came out of college and lost a year to surgery. he’s still pretty new to pro ball and he should move up quickly if he succeeds.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 13, 2008 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

draft picks are even less a sure thing

The Reds weren’t going to get a sure thing for 1.5 months of Dunn. It just wasn’t going to happen.

I’m more a hello man and a welcome man than a good-bye man. And to me Adam Dunn was more a person than a player.

by Slyde on Aug 13, 2008 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why not?

There was obviously interest in him. The DBacks desparately need a bat in their lineup. They now get the first chance to negotiate a new contract with him.

It’s going to take a lot of convincing for me to think other than that Jockety simply game him away for what he could get, instead of doing his job and getting equal value.

Often wrong, never uncertain.

by sidnancy on Aug 13, 2008 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

What do you realistically think the Reds should have gotten for him?

What leverage did they have besides 2 draft picks?

I’m more a hello man and a welcome man than a good-bye man. And to me Adam Dunn was more a person than a player.

by Slyde on Aug 13, 2008 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just don't feel very good about two sore armed pitchers

and a back up catcher.

I would feel better about Buck if he didn’t have one TJS on his resume already, or Owings if he had showed some resemblance of a major league pitcher this season, and wasn’t day to day with shoulder stiffness.

The Dusty Path to the World Series!*

*Note this is not an endorsment of Dusty Baker.

by justin007000 on Aug 13, 2008 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Realistically?

One good prospect, one guy like Buck or Castillo, and no cash going to Arizona.

None of these three guys address the real problems, either short- or long-term with this team: A dependable starter, a shut-down reliever, a power bat, someone to get on base occasionally. All any of them do is nibble at the periphery: An OK pitcher who can hit (for a pitcher) (and who is possibly hurt), a high-A ball pitcher with significant injury questions, and a guy who projects as a back-up catcher.

The leverage they have is not making the trade. The DBacks are in a tenuous position without a bat, and the next best solution is Gary Sheffield and the $14M they’d have to pay him next year (not to mention a boxcar load of baggage he brings).

Often wrong, never uncertain.

by sidnancy on Aug 13, 2008 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

The leverage they have is not making the trade.

Better known as two draft picks.

I’m more a hello man and a welcome man than a good-bye man. And to me Adam Dunn was more a person than a player.

by Slyde on Aug 13, 2008 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's more than that

Because of the DBacks’ position, the Reds don’t have just the leverage of “we don’t need to trade him, we’ll get picks”. They also know the DBacks don’t have a good alternative, and will miss the playoffs unless they start scoring some runs. It doesn’t seem to me the Reds forced the “you need him more than we do” issue (of course, that could just be the car salesman in me).

Often wrong, never uncertain.

by sidnancy on Aug 13, 2008 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Look at it this way

They already missed on Tiexiera; do you really think they would have not made a deal for Dunn, too?

Often wrong, never uncertain.

by sidnancy on Aug 13, 2008 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

We didn't make a deal

for a big bat last year, even with similar offensive issues, a more competitive division, and a second place in the NL West spot. Even when close teams like the Padres got guys like Milton Bradley.

Unless you count Jeff Cirillo off the waiver wire as a “big bat”.

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 13, 2008 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Dodgers

Didn’t pick up Manny Ramirez last year when they were 1 1/2 games out, either.

Often wrong, never uncertain.

by sidnancy on Aug 13, 2008 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here why

there wasnt that much interest in Dunn

by saboscork on Aug 14, 2008 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

I see what you're saying

But in order to get someone with more certainly, the D-backs would have wanted something more than just a 2-month rental of a guy no one else seemed to have much interest in.

by bengalred on Aug 13, 2008 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

how do you know, nobody else had no interest in him?

the Diamondbacks record allowed them to get Dunn. I Boston would have liked to get Adam Dunn, because he would replace the offense lost by Ramirez, and money isn’t an issue there. If the Reds woulda eaten some of his contract, Tampa Bay may have had an interest.

The Dusty Path to the World Series!*

*Note this is not an endorsment of Dusty Baker.

by justin007000 on Aug 13, 2008 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

the thing is

we dont know who showed interest on July 31. those deals could have been much better and Joke-etty (thats my new nickname for him. like it?) might have turned his nose up to them. we just dont know. but considering the value of 1.5 months of Dunn and the two picks, i think this deal is alright. perhaps we could have had passed on a better deal, perhaps not. but the deal that was made is reasonable and im ok with that.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 13, 2008 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

Regardless of what anyone thinks the “fair trade value” is, when you’re a crappy, looking-to-rebuild, payroll-restricted team facing the walk of a high-priced slugger with some clear deficiencies, you’re not going to get it. period.

by bengalred on Aug 13, 2008 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

is that so?

I feel that Florida and Minnesota would disagree with you.

The Dusty Path to the World Series!*

*Note this is not an endorsment of Dusty Baker.

by justin007000 on Aug 13, 2008 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why would the Red Sox want Dunn?

Bay, Drew, Youkilis, and Ortiz are already there.

I’m more a hello man and a welcome man than a good-bye man. And to me Adam Dunn was more a person than a player.

by Slyde on Aug 13, 2008 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re

I think you’re overestimating the worth of seven weeks of Dunn. That’s a couple of wins, and even in a division race Arizona isn’t going to move a significant part of their young core for a rental.

As for our haul, I’m more sanguine than you. Owings has already performed better than a back-end starter. He had a nice rookie year (152.7 IP, 109 ERA+, 106/50 K/BB). and followed it with a good April and May before he got a hitch in his mechanics. Not an uncommon occurrence for young pitchers. Buck was set for the first round before his elbow problems, and even then he still got picked in the third. His K rates aren’t good post-surgery, but he’s showing solid control and he seems to generate a lot of groundballs. Castillo, well, we can use another catcher. I haven’t looked at him closely yet.

Three guys with major, major issues and not alot of upside. I’d rather take my chances that with two extra chances in the top 60 (at worst), I’d find at least one with higher upside.

You aren’t guaranteed two choices in the top 60. Last year the sandwich round had 34 picks. If the team signing Dunn has a top 15 pick, or signed another Type A with a higher rating than Dunn, Arizona’s other pick is bumped down to the second round. That pick could be down at 80 or worse depending on the size of the sandwich round.

by ken on Aug 13, 2008 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

You got me thinking..

Let’s suppose that the Dunn trades nets Buck and Owings. And let’s suppose that Buck and Owings are the Reds’ fourth and fifth starters in 2010 and/or 2011. And let’s suppose they’re not awful.

Is everybody happy?

"Being a human cannonball is not just a job, Pee Wee. It's a career."

by Fat Vegas Alan on Aug 13, 2008 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

no

There are still people starving in Africa for God’s sake!

People Don't Kill People. Burning Couches Kill People.

by crolfer on Aug 13, 2008 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh... you meant the trade...

Not particularly. I’d want to get more than a 4 and 5 starter out of Dunn regardless of how they pitch…

People Don't Kill People. Burning Couches Kill People.

by crolfer on Aug 13, 2008 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

And I think that's probably unrealistic.

Remember, we’re only giving away a few weeks of Dunn.

"Being a human cannonball is not just a job, Pee Wee. It's a career."

by Fat Vegas Alan on Aug 13, 2008 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

eh, this is true

I can dream can’t I?

People Don't Kill People. Burning Couches Kill People.

by crolfer on Aug 14, 2008 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

the Reds were giving up more than that

they also gave up the rights to exclusivly negoitiate with Dunn before he hits the free agent market. Not that it matters because according to Hal, Walt does not neogitiate contracts mid season.

The Dusty Path to the World Series!*

*Note this is not an endorsment of Dusty Baker.

by justin007000 on Aug 14, 2008 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Jocketty has negotiated contracts mid season

and one would think he might make an exception to his staunch personal code considering he was given the fucking job in mid season

Kentuck Arts Festival: October 18th.
Details at Sinful Savage Tigers

by Man Mountain on Aug 14, 2008 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

2011 seems far off

It’s a little like saying we’ll be happy about the Trade if Darryl Thompson is our fourth or fifth starter in 2011. That would be a nice long term benefit, but it doesn’t necessarily make it a good trade.

Now, I clearly don’t think this was as bad as The Trade, but it’s frustrating to see 2011 put forth as the timeline for when this move might start to bear fruit.

by Brendanukkah on Aug 13, 2008 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

No

You shouldn’t rely on the “blind squirrel finding a nut” theory of baseball trades.

The pertinant questions are: Is either likely to be regular members of the rotation, and will that rotation be a quality rotation (remember, Josh Fogg is a “regular member of the rotation” today)?

Often wrong, never uncertain.

by sidnancy on Aug 14, 2008 8:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree

First, Arizona gets more than just “7 weeks of Dunn”. They also get:
1. $2 million
2. The first opportunity to sign him to a LTC.
3. Compensation if he doesn’t resign.

Second, they are currently tied with the Dodgers for the lead in the West. A “couple of wins” could be the difference between making the playoffs and not. That could be the difference in a couple of million dollars for the franchise.

Third, their “young core” is already either (a) in the big leagues, or (b) in Oakland. One good prospect, and one prospect with issues, shouldn’t be too much to ask for their best chance at another playoff run.

You aren’t guaranteed two choices in the top 60. Last year the sandwich round had 34 picks….That pick could be down at 80 or worse depending on the size of the sandwich round.

In ‘08, the 8th pick was in the 3rd round; same in ‘06, ‘04, and ‘03. In ‘05 it was the last pick in the 2nd round sandwich picks.

Often wrong, never uncertain.

by sidnancy on Aug 14, 2008 8:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

A few things

1. Technically, but they also assumed an extra $2mm. And of course we saved ourselves the same amount.
  
2. Generally, I agree that this is a key selling point. This should have meant something, but it didn’t here because we were negotiating with Arizona after the non-waiver deadline. I doubt they would commit long-term to another corner/1B when they already have Upton, Jackson, Tracy, etc. and their (foolish) committment to Eric Byrnes.

But if Walt didn’t sell this advantage when talking to other teams in July, he wasn’t doing his job. That this didn’t get done in July is the biggest problem I have, because after the deadline sellers lost much of their leverage. We could only negotiate with one team at that point.

3. We’re starting to split hairs on the compensation. To see how many picks are in the sandwich round, I would only look at the last two years because the new CBA produces more Type Bs (Scott Schoeneweis?). 34 sandwiches in ‘07, 16 in ’08. Arizona’s non-sandwich pick could be as high as 16 or as low as something like 80 – it all depends on who signs Dunn and how many Type Bs are signed. There’s a lot of variance here, which didn’t strengthen our negotiating position.

Ultimately, this comes down to (1) are Owings, Buck, Castillo and the saved $$ of more value than the two compensatory picks, and (2) did the Reds extract enough value for a rental of Dunn. I say (1) on yes, with the obvious caveat that my knowledge of these prospects and the draft are limited.

With (2), I’m not sure. You seem to think that Arizona was desperate. I think they were willing to mostly stand pat and not trade away someone really valuable (like Parker) for a shot this year because they have a young team that should contend for years. Maybe there were other teams further along the success cycle willing to give up more, but we don’t know if Dunn was actively shopped in July. We also don’t know how much less “baseball people” value Dunn than us. Even assuming that Byrnes is more englightened than someone like Ricciardi, we have to remember that there are other Ricciardis out there, which suppresses the demand for Dunn.

by ken on Aug 14, 2008 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jockety received alot more than I expected

Owings is till first round value and you get him sans a 2 million dollar signing bonus.
Castillo and Buck are nice additions with some upside.
Jockety doesnt get enough credit for moving Griffey although that was probably more due to the idiocy of Kenny Williams. Trading a bottom 5 RF and receiving any salary relief and an actual player that may stick with the Reds is a major miracle.
If the numbers work that the Diamonbacks and the White Sox were splitting the salaries of Dunn and Griffey- the Reds save about 5 million. By trading for prospects rather than keeping the comp picks the Reds save another 2 million. So if they put this money back in the draft that would equate to drafting 3 players with signability issues next year.
And in the picture although most of the local criticism of Dunn is moronic. I do believe some trepidation is warranted in not wanting to sign him to a long-term deal. But I dont see Dunn getting close to a 100 million dollar offer and may have to sign a short term deal.

by davidmac84 on Aug 13, 2008 12:32 PM EDT reply actions  

I agree

I don’t think Dunn will get the 6 year contract needed to get over $100 million. And I could see someone getting him for a steal in a “prove yourself” contract.

Then again, if he blows up the last month and a half, teams may be knocking down his door.

I’m more a hello man and a welcome man than a good-bye man. And to me Adam Dunn was more a person than a player.

by Slyde on Aug 13, 2008 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

$100M+ would surprise me.

But I think Dunn’s agent has to be excited by the move to Arizona.

A .230 BA on a 70-win team doesn’t exactly say “give me lots of money over lots of years.” So the trade might have happened at the right time for more than one reason (the other being Dunn’s entrance into a pennant chase).

So here’s to good timing.

Good timing is better than bad timing.

"Being a human cannonball is not just a job, Pee Wee. It's a career."

by Fat Vegas Alan on Aug 13, 2008 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

You were hungry for it?

"Being a human cannonball is not just a job, Pee Wee. It's a career."

by Fat Vegas Alan on Aug 13, 2008 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're such a cut-up.

"Being a human cannonball is not just a job, Pee Wee. It's a career."

by Fat Vegas Alan on Aug 13, 2008 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

now now now

let’s not lose our heads.

I’m more a hello man and a welcome man than a good-bye man. And to me Adam Dunn was more a person than a player.

by Slyde on Aug 13, 2008 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

You killed it.

Now it’s lying there like the beheaded and gnawed-upon corpse of a 22 year-old Canadian carny on the back of bus.

"Being a human cannonball is not just a job, Pee Wee. It's a career."

by Fat Vegas Alan on Aug 13, 2008 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

In terms of the quality

of the return for the ‘ol Donkey, I’ll reserve judgement until I get a reaction from sMarty and Doc. If they watch the guys play and hate them, it’s pretty likely that we got good quality players.

Overserved and underwhelmed.

by Pops Daniels on Aug 13, 2008 3:48 PM EDT reply actions  

Also

Is C. Trent Guildenstern the only one reporting this? This article claims it’s another pitcher. Thoughts?

Overserved and underwhelmed.

by Pops Daniels on Aug 13, 2008 4:00 PM EDT reply actions  

Coutlangus

The comedic value is appropriate for this team right now

by bengalred on Aug 13, 2008 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey

at least we could make more jokes about… that

by bobestes on Aug 13, 2008 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

It leaves me

tongue tied.

Overserved and underwhelmed.

by Pops Daniels on Aug 13, 2008 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Overserved and underwhelmed.

by Pops Daniels on Aug 13, 2008 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

How am I the only one to rec this?

"My wife ain't never ran and got me no pheasant." - Fistbands

by BK on Aug 13, 2008 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

you need coutlangus

to give her an orgasm? that’s bush league.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 13, 2008 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Har Dee Har

I’ll bet you didn’t know that I’m a quadriplegic. Now how do you feel, you bastard. While you’re at it, why not just dump me out of my chair.

Overserved and underwhelmed.

by Pops Daniels on Aug 13, 2008 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm pretty ok with the return we got for Dunn...

My question is (and maybe it’s already been answered) Why couldn’t we have completed this deal before the trade deadline so that we didn’t have to put up with all of this waiver nonsense?

by chandrathan on Aug 13, 2008 4:00 PM EDT reply actions  

maybe the Dbacks felt like it would help their leverage in the deal?

Or maybe it went the other way around and they didn’t offer as much before 7/31? Who knows what evil lurks in the minds of GMs.

I’m more a hello man and a welcome man than a good-bye man. And to me Adam Dunn was more a person than a player.

by Slyde on Aug 13, 2008 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

on bavasi's mind

What do you mean, "blank slate"?

by boobs on Aug 13, 2008 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have to think the Hudson's season ending surgery

Made their need for a dependable bat more pressing.

Kentuck Arts Festival: October 18th.
Details at Sinful Savage Tigers

by Man Mountain on Aug 13, 2008 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

We claimed Dunn off waivers

BEFORE O-Dawg got injured, though.

Manny Ramirez and the Dodgers: Filling the dubious shoes left open by Barry Bonds and the Giants.

by DbacksSkins on Aug 13, 2008 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

then Byrnes has some excellent anticipatory skills

I’m more a hello man and a welcome man than a good-bye man. And to me Adam Dunn was more a person than a player.

by Slyde on Aug 13, 2008 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really?

So the story that he was sent through waivers on Friday was true?

Kentuck Arts Festival: October 18th.
Details at Sinful Savage Tigers

by Man Mountain on Aug 13, 2008 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's cuz the snakes...

traded for Dunn as a reaction to Manny becoming a Dodger. They didn’t need to make the trade pre-deadline.

by PeteyHendrix on Aug 13, 2008 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I still don't like it...

People Don't Kill People. Burning Couches Kill People.

by crolfer on Aug 13, 2008 10:53 PM EDT reply actions  

Well Dunn grounds out w/bases loaded tonight to lose the game for Arizona.

I’m so over him and so bored with this trade talk. So Crolfs how’s the forensic entomology going.

Or is this reason that you’re into bugs?’ Cause you get a free lifesife blow-up doll with each one?

You can tell your uncle stuff that you could not tell your dad. That is kind of the role of an uncle. I feel very much like a father sometimes but sometimes I feel like a teammate.
Dusty Baker

by Madville on Aug 14, 2008 12:07 AM EDT reply actions  

not bad...

Found a good one at band camp today… think it might have killed Lincoln. Sending it away for DNA testing.

People Don't Kill People. Burning Couches Kill People.

by crolfer on Aug 14, 2008 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Uh. I'm confused

You found ‘one’ at Band Camp?
one what?
VW
Blow-up doll
dead insect

Which Linclon?
Abe
Mike
George W. Lincoln

You can tell your uncle stuff that you could not tell your dad. That is kind of the role of an uncle. I feel very much like a father sometimes but sometimes I feel like a teammate.
Dusty Baker

by Madville on Aug 14, 2008 12:35 AM EDT reply actions  

Living insect.

Probably some sort of Oak Borer.

and the Lincoln I’m referring to is Abe.

People Don't Kill People. Burning Couches Kill People.

by crolfer on Aug 14, 2008 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

mmm... is it buprestidae?

Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.

by andromache on Aug 14, 2008 6:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Aha - I thought that was it!

I know all about the recent huge genome-scale Phylogenetic Study Of Birds that rewrites the evolutionary tree-of-life.

You can tell your uncle stuff that you could not tell your dad. That is kind of the role of an uncle. I feel very much like a father sometimes but sometimes I feel like a teammate.
Dusty Baker

by Madville on Aug 14, 2008 6:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

nope, I'd like to see one of those though...

People Don't Kill People. Burning Couches Kill People.

by crolfer on Aug 14, 2008 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

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