Why Is Cincinnati So Racist?
by JD Arney on May 8, 2008 7:18 PM EDT
440 comments
So I just came across this and it was presumably brought on by this blog post about Ken Griffey Jr. potentially leaving and all I could think was how utterly predictable it all was.
I'm not from Cincinnati, not even from a suburb. You could maybe call Hillsboro, Ohio an exurb, but I think even that would be stretching it, as it's about the same distance from Hillsboro to Columbus (and Dayton for that matter) as it is to Cincinnati. That being said, I always identified with Cincinnati growing up, I consumed the Cincinnati media, and pulled for the Cincinnati teams, but I never really understood the racial issues and general idiocy of so many people who live there.
I don't think its at all a stretch to say that it really is worse in Cincinnati than it is in most other cities. Cincinnati is still the most recent city in America to have race riots. The Ken Griffey Jr. saga has always had racist undertones. No matter what you might think about Chad Johnson (and I've certainly given up on him, but not until I felt it was justified which was this offseason) there were definitely racist things going on there as well when it came to fan response.
For some reason, Cincinnati has a particularly toxic climate when it comes to sports, and this is a big part of it. And if you disagree I challenge you to listen to Cincinnati talk radio or read the Cincinnati.com or MLB.com boards or look at the man love for every white guy who plays hard in this city and tell me you don't see what I'm talking about.
**Obvious disclaimer, most Cincinnatians aren't racist, etc. etc. etc. and so on, but this is a real issue there and it definitely pertains to quite a bit of Cincinnati sports discussion. Also I realize this is probably outside of the scope of Red Reporter's usual fare, but that Daugherty blog post really got to me for some reason. So here we are.
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Beats me, but it’s a question that people in Cincinnati ought to be asking themselves. The demographic makeups of Dayton and Columbus are almost exactly the same. What is it about the city on the river that gives so many blatant haters so much free rein? (If I had to guess, I’d argue that the vileness of talk radio in the city gives permission and cover for even greater vileness among its listeners.)
I grew up outside Dayton and once considered living in Cincinnati, which I described as the only interesting city in Ohio. Not any more.
Racism is a moral failure akin to child abuse and rape. How so many people can justify engaging in it is beyond me.
by justcorbly on May 8, 2008 7:57 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I tend to agree with you
I think the issue that I see often is that there is an openness to being intellectually lazy. It seems like there are too many people who want to take the easy way out rather than challenge themselves to think a little further. But I guess that’s the general basis for any kind of ignorance.
I don’t really blame talk radio, though they are an enabler. If the public didn’t grab a hold of what they were saying, they would just say something different until the public listened.
It gets crazy on the road, and awful lonely. That's why I love pornography. This next song is all about my love of hardcore, barely legal pornography.
by Slyde on May 8, 2008 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whoa
Racism is a moral failure akin to child abuse and rape.
There’s a whole lot in that sentence that needs to be carefully parsed. I get where you’re headed in psychological terms, but actions are actions are actions.
'cause something is happening here, but you don't know what it is.
by Man Mountain on May 8, 2008 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
excellent point
"Hard being everybody’s hero, I suppose." - Buck O'Neil on Willie Mays
by Slyde on May 8, 2008 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
...after all these years, thats how I’ve come to think about it. Racism is obviously a moral failure. Having accepted that, it’s a judgment call to decide how to rank it among other moral failures.
In any case, I think racism is a universal human characteristic, just as the inclination to commit criminal acts knows no boundaries. Part of being civilized and socialized is to recognize the desire to take your bosses laptop or the desire to act on your attraction to his wife. We all feel desire and lust, but almost all of us have learned to think before we act. People who engage in racist behavior don’t follow that pattern. In many cases, they don’t even know their behavior is racist and offensive. In many other case, they do know and they don’t care.
There are social, as well as legal, sanctions for stealing your bosses laptop or acting on your attraction to his wife. Fewer sanctions exist for racist behavior. Perhaps that part of the problem.
by justcorbly on May 8, 2008 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am not sure
you can legalize morals. Or adjudicate them either
Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds
by Caleb on May 8, 2008 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
isn't the whole legal system based off of morals?
otherwise why would anything be illegal?
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on May 8, 2008 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
Any law will have a normative element to it.
At least it wasn't Grady Little.
by Paul Householder on May 8, 2008 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I probably worded that wrong.
Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds
by Caleb on May 8, 2008 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Most people...
...would find a strong correlation between the criminal code and behavior they consider immoral.
You can’t defend against a criminal charge or a civil action by arguing that “I am not sure you can legalize morals”. You won’t stay out of jail by arguing that what you did was not immoral.
Much openly racist behavior is illegal. Refuse to sell a house or a meal to someone based on skin color and you’re asking for a court appearance. Other racist behaviors aren’t illegal but are still just as offensive to their targets. Writing a blog post linking an athlete’s ability and desire with skin color is not a crime, but it is immoral and offensive.
Almost all of us have a kind of internal switch, a conscience, perhaps, that intervenes when we feel an emotional urge to engage in illegal or offensive behavior. People who engage in racist behavior seem to ignore that switch.
by justcorbly on May 9, 2008 8:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
good points
FWIW, on Tom Tango’s blog they have informally adopted a series of awards for bad contracts in the offseason (on either the team’s part or the player’s part). One of the awards is the Gritty White Guy award, as players of that type often seem to get an unusually large contract relative to their production. So that kind of racism isn’t restricted to Cincinnati, though I agree that it’s certainly the case that it exists in Cinci.
The Eric Davis saga was the most prominent example that I remember in terms of apparent racism-driven public opinion regarding a ballplayer. Sometimes, at least as I remember it, the discourse boiled down to “come on, boy, shake it off and play.” (say that in a southern accent and you’ll hear it).
As for how people can justify engaging in it, it’s probably the case that everyone is racist on some level. If not toward African Americans (or, in reverse, Caucasians), then toward Asians, Latinos (think about the immigration debate for a second…), etc. I think the important thing as an individual is to try to be aware of one’s prejudices in order to actively work to eliminate or at least reduce them. I don’t think there’s much to be gained by pretending they don’t exist (e.g. Stephen Colbert’s “I don’t see color”), but rather to confront them in ourselves and then try to modify our point of view via new experiences.
Anyway, just my $0.02.
-j
by JinAZ on May 8, 2008 8:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
its obvious
its in southern ohio and there are still a lot of racist rural people
by columbusOHcubsfan on May 8, 2008 8:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
city folk just don't get it
It gets crazy on the road, and awful lonely. That's why I love pornography. This next song is all about my love of hardcore, barely legal pornography.
by Slyde on May 8, 2008 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
then watch more reds games
you’ll understand
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on May 9, 2008 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
im a cubs fan
i understand you issue though
by columbusOHcubsfan on May 10, 2008 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'm not sure you do
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on May 10, 2008 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that statement isn't inflamatory is it?
People don’t stop and think before speaking, or typing.
Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds
by Caleb on May 8, 2008 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know in my heart of hearts that the wealthy white elite in this town are disturbingly racist.
The sports teams are and have been owned by those aforementioned white rich elitists.
From Robby to Lee May to Eric Davis, even to Barry Larkin – this town has never truly welcomed black/minority athletes. Anthony Munoz, Tony Perez, Archie Griffin, Joe Morgan were well received but never a part of the fabric of the city’s movers and shakers. Even Reggie Williams was eventually ‘put in his place’
I have had the pleasure and the humiliation of working with/for some of the richest white people in this part of country on an almost daily basis for over 25 years. Many of these people have good intentions, would give money to help the needy and believe that they are righteously non racist – but. almost to a person they wouldn’t allow their daughter to marry a black – not ever a “Brahman.”
I will not go into detail on this blog and name names and situations that I’ve seen up close and personal and I’m not a native to the city although I’ve lived here for 30 some years. My son in law is black (I’m white), my son’s fiance is Hispanic, daughter #2 is hot and heavy with her long time boyfriend (he’s Jewish she’s an agnostic Catholic) god forbid if daughter #3 wants to marry her sister!
I love all these folks – but you can’t believe the snide shit I hear from some of our ‘friends’
Go Jr – Go Dunner – Go – EdE – Go Dusty – Go BP….wait a minute Dunn is white…but he is from Texas…...Go Reds.
Eeyore has more fun than a Reds fan.
by Madville on May 8, 2008 8:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Reggie Williams
With all due respect, Reggie Williams was voted to city council. That shows some level of acceptance.
Then again, we should probably clarify; Cincinnati itself is not a racist city. However, the concentration of population that rings Cincinnati is quite prejudiced/racist.
by bobestes on May 8, 2008 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Way too easy to blame the rich white people because they have all the power and all your money
Isn’t 98% of America employed by white people who are rich? I’m not quite sure that’s what you are trying to say, but that’s where it seemed to start.. I’m pretty sure a comparable prcentage of middle and low class white people are racist too. It’s just far more common and acceptable to bash those who embitter us. We could blame Cub fans because we know we’ll get support from almost everyone, but that doesn’t make it their fault.
by Brian B on May 9, 2008 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know in my heart of hearts that the wealthy white elite in this town are disturbingly racist.
I have found this to be true as well.
by Pops Daniels on May 9, 2008 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree about it being a race issue with Griffey
Most Reds fans were/are frustrated with his injury history and how we only got one season of his prime. Now I believe Griffey thinks more people are after him then there really are but that is another discussion in it self. Now maybe it is because I am a little younger then most bloggers on this site but I tend to roll my eyes when a “race” story breaks out. In recent memory the only time I can recall a true racist moment was the Don Imus Saga because that really was racist and just plain being an asshole.
As for Chad I’m not sure what the overall city view is of him. As for the students and friends of mine I go to college we are happy for Chad that he is getting out of Mike Browns mess much like Corey Dillon did. We don’t hate him because he “talks smack” or “dances after a TD” we realize that he is one of the top 4 WRs in the NFL and how he put the Bengals on the NFL map.
Norris Hopper's #1 fan!!!
by Zach K on May 8, 2008 9:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I disagree with almost every single sentence in your post.
At least it wasn't Grady Little.
by Paul Householder on May 8, 2008 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
really? Why?
I like to read what you think
Norris Hopper's #1 fan!!!
by Zach K on May 8, 2008 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm too lazy.
Check out what other people have said below. They pretty much encapsulate what I’d say in my response.
The sentence that bugs me the most, however is: “In recent memory the only time I can recall a true racist moment was the Don Imus Saga because that really was racist and just plain being an asshole.”
There have been plenty of real racist moments in recent memory.
Start with Bill Clinton comparing Obama’s campaign to Jesse Jackson’s campaign after the South Carolina primary. Then listen to the recent speech of Rev. Jeremiah Wright at the National Press Club. Then go to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s recent remarks on how Israel is a “stinking corpse.”
Plenty of real racism to go around, folks.
At least it wasn't Grady Little.
by Paul Householder on May 8, 2008 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also..
Chad Johnson’s not really one of the top recievers in the NFL, is he?
I don't know how to paint a banana gourd to look like a Power Ranger.
by Fat Vegas Alan on May 8, 2008 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well the ocho cinco had a down year last year
but I believe for 05 and 06 he had the most receiving yards
by johnny cueto thinks we're sellouts on May 8, 2008 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm...
It is arguable, but that was one of the few sentences I actually agreed with.
Moss is better. Steve Smith is better. Marvin Harrison is better. It’s hard to find a fourth one.
At least it wasn't Grady Little.
by Paul Householder on May 8, 2008 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chad
Benefits from having a very good qb throwing to him.
That being said, he’s one of the finest route-runners and is a technically superior wide receiver.
by bobestes on May 8, 2008 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The others...
Aside from Smith (who has a rogues’ gallery throwing to him without Delhomme) do also (Brady, Manning).
At least it wasn't Grady Little.
by Paul Householder on May 8, 2008 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i take exception with your list
harrison is no longer better than johnson…
wayne is better than harrison
and tj is better than chad
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on May 8, 2008 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
TJ
couldn’t be a #1, nor should he be paid as one.
by bobestes on May 8, 2008 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he was a number one last year
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on May 8, 2008 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Welll
I’d argue that Chad drew some heat away from TJ, who spent much of his time in single coverage
by bobestes on May 8, 2008 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
your argument would probably be valid
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on May 8, 2008 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait till this year
Lets see what he does with double coverage and Palmer overthrowing him…
Norris Hopper's #1 fan!!!
by Zach K on May 8, 2008 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
palmer will be fine
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on May 8, 2008 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And a Black president!
I don't know how to paint a banana gourd to look like a Power Ranger.
by Fat Vegas Alan on May 8, 2008 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually, i don't think we can have a black president this year...
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on May 8, 2008 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
unless there's a lot of death
and miss rice takes over
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on May 8, 2008 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
pwned
At least it wasn't Grady Little.
by Paul Householder on May 8, 2008 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember when Reagan got shot..
And Al Haig said he was “in control here.”
Even though it was Tip O’Neill…
At least it wasn't Grady Little.
by Paul Householder on May 8, 2008 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
either waywas
pretty freakin scary
Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds
by Caleb on May 8, 2008 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unless...
We get to the Secretary of State in the chain of succession.
At least it wasn't Grady Little.
by Paul Householder on May 8, 2008 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh, you mean half-black
or, as rich white optimists in Cincinnati say, “half-white”
by Brian B on May 9, 2008 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nitpicking, here..
As I understand it, Reverend Wright’s speech was relatively genial and pretty well-received. It was his remarks/ridiculous stage show during the following Q&A session that caused the uproar.
I don't know how to paint a banana gourd to look like a Power Ranger.
by Fat Vegas Alan on May 8, 2008 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Picky, picky, picky...
At least it wasn't Grady Little.
by Paul Householder on May 8, 2008 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
here is how I look at it
Clinton was trying to put Obama’s credibility down…and that remark hurt Hillary in the race…it was hateful but I’m sure if Hillary was neck and neck with Edwards Billy Clinton would make some cheap shot towards him as well.
Rev Wright was around a time where white people treated black people awful for no reason other then being black. It doesn’t make what he is saying “right” but he does have the right to say that if it doesn’t harm anyone.
I’m not saying that there is no racisim I just don’t think majority of “Griffey haters” hate him because he is black.
Norris Hopper's #1 fan!!!
by Zach K on May 8, 2008 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
This is nitpicking, but black people still get treated pretty awful just for being black.
by bobestes on May 8, 2008 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes but that can be said for anyone
Radio stations openly broadcast White Hate speeches but many people don’t think twice about that.
I’m not saying white people are or aren’t treated awful…but at UC when I play with my friend in basketball they always make fun of me saying “ha White Guy playing ball” or when I make a tough shot “Oh Larry Bird”. I think it is funny but it could be considered “racist” and OMG how awful but it really isn’t a big deal
Norris Hopper's #1 fan!!!
by Zach K on May 8, 2008 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t blame you for this perspective; God knows it has been voiced ad nauseam, most notably by the anti-affirmative action crowd. However it completely ignores the societal (not to mention historical) context in which racist comments are made in contemporary American culture. As white men who might encounter such racist occurrences as the white hate speeches or obligatory "Larry Bird" comments mentioned you and I have the luxury of knowing that the vast majority of the community we live in (over 70% nationwide) is comprised of similar people, meaning that even if these stereotypes or messages were indeed true we share them with most people in our country. Quite different than hearing equally irresponsible and/or baseless remarks when you are part of a community which makes up a fifth or less of the US population, don’t you think? Not to mention the kind of additional emotional tripwires that exist due to the historical precedent of exploitation and subjugation based on racial qualifications in this country. I’ll step down from the soapbox now. What better way to acclimate yourself with a new group than by diving into a race relations thread!
by Bill Doran on May 9, 2008 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see your point
Norris Hopper's #1 fan!!!
by Zach K on May 9, 2008 7:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh.
You are missing the point.
You say: “Clinton was trying to put Obama’s credibility down…and that remark hurt Hillary in the race…it was hateful but I’m sure if Hillary was neck and neck with Edwards Billy Clinton would make some cheap shot towards him as well.”
Just because Bill Clinton would have done something bad to a white person, like Edwards does not make the statements he made (i.e., Obama = Jackson because they are both black, ergo you can dismiss them both) non-racist.
At least it wasn't Grady Little.
by Paul Householder on May 8, 2008 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
shoot
Look at what she’s saying now. He can’t win the white vote. Translation: the black guy can’t win.
by bobestes on May 8, 2008 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep. That too.
At least no one is trying to defend Ahmadinejad.
At least it wasn't Grady Little.
by Paul Householder on May 8, 2008 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will
I haven’t actually heard his most recent comments, but a lot of things he catches heat for are translation issues.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on May 8, 2008 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm.
Can’t speak to that, since I do not know Persian, but I haven’t ever heard him complain about mis-translation.
At least it wasn't Grady Little.
by Paul Householder on May 8, 2008 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he says
exactly what he means in a manner exactly how he intends it to be understood by “us”
Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds
by Caleb on May 8, 2008 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think he can
He doesn’t speak English (or doesn’t speak it well enough to catch the nuances).
But plenty of other people have complained.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on May 8, 2008 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ahmadinejad
says so many crazy and offensive things. I’m sure that due to the sheer volume, some are translation issues. But for every one of those there are probably many more where he says exactly what he means. Last year here in NYC, he spoke at Columbia (against the wishes of much of the community). When pressed about his country’s barbaric treatment of homosexuals, he simply insisted that Iran had no homosexuals. This particular example is not racist, but I don’t think I’m going out on a limb here to say that he’s a dangerous, prejudiced man.
On another side, I’ve seen him referred to as “I’madinnerjacket” several times in the national media (I think it may have been started by Maureen Dowd of the NYTimes, but I’m not sure). The initial explanation was that this was the best way to remember the pronunciation of his name. But isn’t this a form of bias as well? Yes words and names in other languages can be difficult for English speakers to navigate, but to me this is an unwarranted mockery of another culture’s language—whether the target is a lunatic or not. Yes, it’s the man who is ostensibly being mocked, but it is done in a way that manages to offend the innocent as well as the guilty. And that’s too bad, because it undermines legitimate criticism.
by ctnyc on May 9, 2008 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But isn't the "I'm-a-dinner-jacket"
Thing very similar to the west calling the capital of China Peking for so long? Or Mumbai in India?
"I'd walk through hell in a gasoline suit to play baseball" - Pete Rose
by Officer Dibble on May 9, 2008 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly
I don’t know the background of those cases. I will say that I hold the impression that a lot of media outlets still refer to Myanmar as Burma because they question the legitimacy of the junta that changed the name. If I’m wrong about this, somebody please correct me (my brain is a little fried at the moment; I hope I’m not mixing things up).
At any rate, as long as legitimate governments are making these kinds of decisions, it’s fair to say that the decisions should be respected. After all—it’s Istanbul, not Constantinople.
by ctnyc on May 9, 2008 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
...but it will always be Burma to me
This article covers some of the press confusion.
by Red Menace on May 9, 2008 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No doubt...
...his attitude towards gays is medieval. (Though that is one thing he has backtracked on.) But that’s hardly unusual in the Middle East. Homosexuality is punishable by death in Saudi Arabia, and they’re our good buddies.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on May 9, 2008 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
his attitude mimics much of america in that regard
by Daedalus on May 9, 2008 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's true...
i watched borat
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on May 9, 2008 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
good point
Though our president admits gays exist. He think they’re going to hell, like the Jews, but he admits they exist. ;-)
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on May 9, 2008 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he just got carried away
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on May 9, 2008 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But is that racist?
She and Bubba obviously love this country and they even more obviously love the Democratic Party. If Hilary were to come out and clearly state, “I don’t think this country is ready to elect a Black president,” is she being racist?
Full disclosure: I voted for Hillary. I’m getting all kinds of fired up for Obama. But I’m assuming that McCain will win^ in November because he’s the old White guy and in a time of war and economic uncertainty, most folks are gonna trust the guy that most reminds them of Thomas Jefferson, Walter Cronkite and Wilford Brimley. But I’m not racist. (Go ahead, someone tell me that in fact, I am. I’m listening.)
^ Not the worst thing in the world.
I don't know how to paint a banana gourd to look like a Power Ranger.
by Fat Vegas Alan on May 8, 2008 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Naw
Obama has been double teamed by McCain and Clinton for two months now, and he’s polling ahead of McCain. It’s a potentially toxic environment for the GOP this year. See that race in LA and Hastert’s seat in IL.
Change election, baby.
by bobestes on May 8, 2008 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well you didn't vote republican
so you cleared the first test of not being racist…
(I’m going to hide in the corner now, so that I can avoid thrown objects.)
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on May 8, 2008 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
republican here
start ducking jr
Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds
by Caleb on May 8, 2008 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i know
you’re the one i was afraid of the most :-)
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on May 8, 2008 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not me
Be what ever party you want to be. It really doesn’t matter because the “leaders” of the parties really do not care about us, the common working people. It is all about them maintaining their positions of power and influence.
Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds
by Caleb on May 8, 2008 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well i will definately agree with that
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on May 8, 2008 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Caleb, why do you like the taste of puppy blood?
I don't know how to paint a banana gourd to look like a Power Ranger.
by Fat Vegas Alan on May 8, 2008 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
see my vest
see my vest
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on May 8, 2008 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
cause I can't get cat blood anymore
Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds
by Caleb on May 8, 2008 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not a Republican
Not a Democrat.
Neither party represents my interests. I just know I can’t vote for the Hilldabeest….
by cesarhernandez on May 8, 2008 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and
I disagree with the notion that BIll and HIllary just love their country and party soooo much. It’s the pursuit of power, that’s it.
She’s damaging Obama so she can run in 2012. That’s why she said what she said today.
by bobestes on May 8, 2008 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, common.
You sound as cynical and jaded and your average Thursday night blogger.
I don't know how to paint a banana gourd to look like a Power Ranger.
by Fat Vegas Alan on May 8, 2008 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think McCain has a good chance of winning
But only partly because of race. Yes, there are some yahoos who won’t like the idea of colored folk living in the White House. But mostly, I think it’s that Obama is letting himself be painted as the sort of elite intellectual that has been a loser for the Dems for the past 40 years or so.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on May 8, 2008 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wilford Brimley can be frightening
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. --Oscar Wilde
by JD Arney on May 9, 2008 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
but is that a racist statement?
Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds
by Caleb on May 8, 2008 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don't think so
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on May 8, 2008 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it is
She said “hard-working” and non-college educated white voters won’t vote for a black guy. She, as an upper-class white woman, is assuming that lower-class white voters are incapable of seeing past race and voting on the merits of a candidate.
This does nothing to advance the national dialogue on race (which is not intelligently discussed by the media) and class (which is taboo). I thought her condescension was sickening.
Obama is wrongfully criticized by some for offering nothing more than “empthy rhetoric.” But maybe that’s because his opponent’s rhetoric is uninspiring at best and offensive at worst.
by ken on May 9, 2008 7:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hillary is in a bad spot
she gets her fair share of backlash from voters just because she is a woman.
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on May 9, 2008 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I definitely agree with this.
The only reason Nancy Pelosi stays in is because she mentions the fact that she has 5 kids every other sentence.
Hilary Clinton ain’t nobody’s mama. Except Chelsea’s. I guess. My point being that she’s defying gender roles and that weirds people out.
Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.
by andromache on May 9, 2008 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think she gets that backlash
because the average American thinks she was played for a chump with the whole Lewinski thing. Of course, the immediate angle would be to sympathize with her, but the longer she keeps Bill around, the less sympathetic she seems.
"I'd walk through hell in a gasoline suit to play baseball" - Pete Rose
by Officer Dibble on May 9, 2008 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh ok
so If Bill Clinton pulled a cheap one on Edwards that is ok, but when it is Obama that is not ok…yeah that sounds like we believe in equality right?
Norris Hopper's #1 fan!!!
by Zach K on May 8, 2008 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh.
Obviously, reading comprehension is not your strong suit.
Please re-read the comment and then try responding again.
At least it wasn't Grady Little.
by Paul Householder on May 8, 2008 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
and I as I said before i looked at it as a poorly played political move…that is what I am trying to say
Norris Hopper's #1 fan!!!
by Zach K on May 8, 2008 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I give up.
This is why I almost did not respond to your first question. If someone else wants to try to explain it to Zach, go ahead.
‘than? Caleb? bob?
At least it wasn't Grady Little.
by Paul Householder on May 8, 2008 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i would, but i don't remember what the argument is about...
and that’s a lot of posts to scroll through to figure it out
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on May 8, 2008 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's why I'm headed to bed with my Posnanski.
Hummina hummina!
I don't know how to paint a banana gourd to look like a Power Ranger.
by Fat Vegas Alan on May 8, 2008 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK. Imagine Bill Clinton does make a crack about Edwards.
Likely, it’s going to be about him being a lawyer.
Not about Edwards being white. And using white stereotypes like being…educated.
Now since this is hypothetical, I can’t prove this.
But you still see the point. One attack is based on race. The other probably wouldn’t be.
Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.
by andromache on May 8, 2008 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh boy...
Get ready for a “torrential flood of illogic.”
At least it wasn't Grady Little.
by Paul Householder on May 8, 2008 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
(from Zach, that is)
I agree with your post, ‘mache.
At least it wasn't Grady Little.
by Paul Householder on May 8, 2008 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he could go with a negative white stereotype
like being a racist wifebeating nascar loving southerner
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on May 8, 2008 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right.
Because that is totally what Clinton would say about Edwards. I think the closest you could get is implying that since Edwards is from the south, he is racist.
Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.
by andromache on May 9, 2008 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i was joking with that
although, i doubt clinton would attack edwards on being a lawyer…considering he’s a lawyer
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on May 9, 2008 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the type of lawyer clinton is vs. edwards
is lightyears apart. edwards made his millions chasing ambulances.
by Daedalus on May 9, 2008 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and didn't clinton get disbarred?
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on May 9, 2008 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that had nothing to do with his practicing law
and everything to do with what is is.
by Daedalus on May 9, 2008 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes. And that would make him...
No longer a lawyer, so he can therefore make fun of Edwards for that.
At least it wasn't Grady Little.
by Paul Householder on May 9, 2008 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
touche
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on May 9, 2008 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair -
Edwards also did some good work. Like, the Sta-Rite pool drain cover case. It seems ridiculous – but the company knew that the fact that they didn’t put a warning that they had to be nailed down had already resulted in several injuries. The little girl in question was nearly completely eviscerated and had to be hooked up to a feeding machine every night for the rest of her life.
He also did really cheap shit – especially with all the c-section/childbirth stuff. But he had his moments.
Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.
by andromache on May 9, 2008 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
true
and we do need trial lawyers to protect us from corporations. but legal protections have been abused to the point where we have serious problems with the legal system and now it’s tough to fight real corporate abuses in some places.
by Daedalus on May 9, 2008 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
People give that McDonalds hot coffee case a lot of shit
but there were dozens of complaints brought to the company’s attention before that case ever made it to trial, and Mickey’s refused to change anything about the way it did things.
"I'd walk through hell in a gasoline suit to play baseball" - Pete Rose
by Officer Dibble on May 9, 2008 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And that coffee was ridiculously hot
There was something wrong with the machine.
Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.
by andromache on May 9, 2008 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
True
But plaintiffs’ lawyers line up for those cases. For the brilliant ones like Edwards, they can cherry-pick the best cases with the most egregious facts, which brings them truckloads of money. It’s much harder (and more admirable, imo) to be a public defender, consumer advocate or some other non-profit lawyer.
by ken on May 9, 2008 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Clinton made his chasing skirts.
Badda bing!
"I'd walk through hell in a gasoline suit to play baseball" - Pete Rose
by Officer Dibble on May 9, 2008 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how did Clinton make his?
Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds
by Caleb on May 9, 2008 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem with that logic is that
Hilary attacks Barack for being ‘elitist.’ Which may or may not be true, but it seems awfully disingenuous coming from the mouth of someone who makes millions of dollars a year.
Same with her faux “sympathies” of the working man’s problems filling up the old gas tank, hunting, or going to church. I would hazard a guess to say that she’s not done any of those things in many, many years.
"I'd walk through hell in a gasoline suit to play baseball" - Pete Rose
by Officer Dibble on May 9, 2008 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This may be true
but the sad reality is that you pretty much have to be a millionaire to effectively run for high national office, particularly president. Until real campaign finance reform is embraced, that will always be the case. And there will always be politicians putting on false personae to try to prove that they have the interests of the “regular joe” at heart. Let’s not forget that our Connecticut-born, Ivy League-educated, grandson of a congressman and son of a president, current Commander in Chief has somehow managed to convince a significant slice of the American electorate that he’s just a down-home, regular guy.
by ctnyc on May 9, 2008 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the obamas
were still paying back their student loans until three or four years ago. they claim it was the success of barack’s book that put them into the higher tax bracket, and i believe that, because i know working with non-profits and then as a state legislator does not make one rich.
we are so jaded by politics that we are quick to say no politician can actually care about people. but it just isn’t true. (see dean, howard.)
by Daedalus on May 9, 2008 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't misunderstand
Perhaps I wasn’t clear in my post, but I think it’s absolutely true that politicians can care about people. I may be naive, but I honestly believe that most (not all but most) politicians get into the business because they do care. But that doesn’t make them “regular joes,” no matter how hard they may try to position themselves as such.
by ctnyc on May 9, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's interesting to me that we've sort of come full circle to discussing "regular Joes"...
..in this thread about race and the general public’s perception about race and the “regular Joe-ness” of millionaire athletes.
Yum-o!
by Fat Vegas Alan on May 9, 2008 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which STILL blows my mind to this day
"I'd walk through hell in a gasoline suit to play baseball" - Pete Rose
by Officer Dibble on May 9, 2008 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget...
..Skull and Bones coke-blowin’ regular guy.
Yum-o!
by Fat Vegas Alan on May 9, 2008 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FWIW.. I don't think there are many national office holders in the entire country..
..that weren’t in a church, a cathedral or synagogue at least once or twice sometime in the past four or five months. And yes, by “in a church” I mean: as a member/congregant in a pew, standing up, sitting and/or genuflecting at all the apropriate times on one’s respective Sabbaths.
Just sayin.’
Yum-o!
by Fat Vegas Alan on May 9, 2008 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Being in the building
Has utterly no relation to whether you are actually “there,” if you know what I mean.
"I'd walk through hell in a gasoline suit to play baseball" - Pete Rose
by Officer Dibble on May 9, 2008 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention
She’s been in the pocket of the pro-corporate DLC for years and years now.
by bobestes on May 9, 2008 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No it really is simple
My main point was that majority of reds fans are frustrated with Griffey because of his injury history. Paul was upset when I made the comment about how to me the only true race issue in recent memory was Don Imus. Now was Race involed in those comments sure but it didn’t harm anyone unlike Imus’s comments who attacked college girls for no reason. Now Clintons remark was bringing up history of who won a primary in South Carolina before, Rev Wright is allowed to say what he wants to the people of his church so that is why I feel no one was harmed by either of those incidents. Now this is just what I think as I said before and you can disagree with me but because it doesn’t make sense to you I appreciate if you do not say it is not logical.
Norris Hopper's #1 fan!!!
by Zach K on May 9, 2008 7:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
*sigh*
At least it wasn't Grady Little.
by Paul Householder on May 9, 2008 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And by the way, it's not logical.
At least it wasn't Grady Little.
by Paul Householder on May 9, 2008 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Final attempt.
A couple of yes or no questions:
Suppose there is a 10-year old black girl who has no pre-conceived notions about white people. She goes to church for the first time with her father, and it happens to be Wright’s church. She hears from Wright that white people are all greedy and out to get black people and believes that, because her dad brought her to the church, and the entire crowd agrees with Wright.
1. Has she been harmed? Yes or no?
2. Has society been harmed if she then grows up to be a judge or police officer and bears this bias against white people? Yes or no?
If the answer to either question is “yes”, that would be why I think your view is illogical.
At least it wasn't Grady Little.
by Paul Householder on May 9, 2008 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Furthermore...
How can you say that Wright’s remarks don’t “harm anyone”?
Racist speech by anyone who is looked upon as a leader harms those who follow it.
This is not to say that Wright should not be allowed to say what he wants, but we should also feel free to criticize it as being quite harmful.
At least it wasn't Grady Little.
by Paul Householder on May 8, 2008 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well I don't know how to argue this
because I agree Wright can say what he wants and we hte people can say what we want about it.
The problem with this election is that the average American is dumb. We are so caught up in stupid bullshit like “The White Vote” “The Black Vote” IT is the peoples vote ok…and right now we are entering a critical election and we are talking about race and stupid stuff that doesn’t matter. I only care about issues and who agrees with what I feel about the way this country can go…now the guy I like doesn’t have a change in hell to win but I”M still going to vote for him because he can get the job done and really is for change.
Norris Hopper's #1 fan!!!
by Zach K on May 8, 2008 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're not...
You’re not a Ron Paul supporter? Right?
by Brendanukkah on May 9, 2008 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am
I unregistered from the Libertarian Party before the primaries to vote for the man.
Norris Hopper's #1 fan!!!
by Zach K on May 9, 2008 7:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, so you were the one.
I don't know how to paint a banana gourd to look like a Power Ranger.
by Fat Vegas Alan on May 9, 2008 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As an Obama supporter
I sure as hell hope that Ron Paul runs for President as an independant this year. Let the GOP feel what it is like to have someone splitting the vote for a change.
"I'd walk through hell in a gasoline suit to play baseball" - Pete Rose
by Officer Dibble on May 9, 2008 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nice.
sure nader’s not gonna jump into the fray this year?
by Daedalus on May 9, 2008 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, he's already there
but he has successfully marginalized himself to the point of not mattering any more. Back in the good old days of 2000, voting for Nader was seen by some as a protest vote against the party machinery that gave us wooden old Al Gore and his know nothing pal GeeDub.
I think if they people who voted for Nader in 2000 could have it to do over again, I doubt that most would vote the same way again.
And there are sure enough pissed off Reepubs that McCain is going to be the nominee that I could see upwards of 15% of the vote being syphoned off to Paul.
"I'd walk through hell in a gasoline suit to play baseball" - Pete Rose
by Officer Dibble on May 9, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Voted for Nader in 2000.
The thing I would do (am doing) differently now is not wait for the president to improve things. I don’t really think Nader or Obama or Hillary can make the fundamental changes to this world that will improve things for everybody.
I do think, however, that collectively we can.
Tanzen!
by Verka Serduchka on May 9, 2008 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i sort of disagree
i think the president can do much to repair america’s image in the eyes of the rest of the world. a different president, a different foreign policy, a different cabinet – those things do make an overall difference.
but in the end, yeah, it’s up to us. but we can’t be sitting here waiting for the world to change. (I know you aren’t.)
by Daedalus on May 9, 2008 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Changes yes,
fundamental changes, I don’t think so.
The US of America has been involved in some sort of military intervention abroad pretty much every decade of its existence, regardless of the political party in power.
Tanzen!
by Verka Serduchka on May 9, 2008 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
RE: "Improving things for everybody"...
When the moment comes when “the people” have pushed their grassroots agenda to a critical mass, who’s gonna be sitting in the Oval Office putting pen to paper?
“Change you can believe in”?
Or..
“Let me give it to you straight.”?
Yum-o!
by Fat Vegas Alan on May 9, 2008 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely admit
that leftist presidents tend to not murder, dissapear, and demolish people’s movements like those from the right.
I guess the idea I am trying to get at is that this political system and the whole nation-state era is relatviely new and young. There is no reason that the world we build has to involve presidents at all.
Not saying we don’t need leadership or organization, we just don’t need to be tied down by the way it is now, or the way it has been in other times.
Obviously, I am talking about a distant future, but if we are going build something better lets be as creative as possible with the vision we are workng towards.
Tanzen!
by Verka Serduchka on May 9, 2008 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you proposing we trade our everyday players...
..for some unproven relievers?
Yum-o!
by Fat Vegas Alan on May 9, 2008 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Truly Racist Moments
They’re not typically as overt as the Imus debacle, sure, but how about something like this:
2 Years ago, MLB and Holiday Inn sponsored the “Look Again” Award. Here’s there little blurb on it:
Behind every great team on the diamond, lurking in the shadow of baseball superstars, live the role players who sacrifice for their team in often unrecognized effort. Which of these role players’ best deserves recognition for their contributions as the Holiday Inn Look Again Player of the Year?
The nominees for the award were as follows (each team got 1):
American League
Angels: Robb Quinlan
Athletics: Mark Kotsay
Blue Jays: Reed Johnson
Devil Rays: Ty Wiggingon
Indians: Jake Westbrook
Mariners: Jake Woods
Orioles: Brian Roberts
Rangers: Mark DeRosa
Red Sox: Kevin Youkilis
Royals: Mark Grudzielanek
Tigers: Brandon Inge
Twins: Jason Tyner
White Sox: Joe Crede
Yankees: Scott Proctor
National League
Astros: Chris Burke
Braves: Brian McCann
Brewers: Brian Shouse
Cardinals: David Eckstein
Cubs: John Mabry
Diamondbacks: Eric Byrnes
Dodgers: Andre Ethier
Giants: Mark Sweeney
Marlins: Wes Helms
Mets: Jose Valentin
Nationals: Nick Johnson
Padres: Woody Williams
Phillies: Shane Victorino
Pirates: John Grabow
Reds: Ryan Freel
Rockies: Garrett Atkins
Notice anything?
It’s not “nappy-headed hos,” but in a way, it’s more damaging. This kind of stuff perpetuates the racial stereotypes that have long outserved their usefulness (if they had any to begin with), but is done in such a manner that it’s almost impossible to confront the issue. I mean, there’s not even a token Torii Hunter or Chone Figgins in there.
"Karma - there it was. The meaning of life, straight from Carson Daly's lips to my morphine-laced ears." -Earl Hickey
by BLee2525 on May 8, 2008 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember
the Scrappy White Guy Award! I can’t believe Holiday Inn didn’t get more shit for that..
Who ended up winning it anyway?
-Do not play golf behind Dave Parker.
by snohio on May 8, 2008 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Was there any doubt?
Who’s the scrappiest, whitiest ballplayer ever? The guy so white and scrappy, he’s actually an albino? Grit. Hustle. Heart. Eckstein
"Karma - there it was. The meaning of life, straight from Carson Daly's lips to my morphine-laced ears." -Earl Hickey
by BLee2525 on May 8, 2008 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't get it?
What am I supposed to notice? Is there a sailboat in there?
by Brian B on May 9, 2008 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
I’m also speaking from what my peers and I think but we are all sick of Ryan Freel. I mean we all love a guy who gives it his all and makes more money then we will ever see for doing that. The whole not going to the playoffs since we were all too young to really know what the hell was going on isn’t exactly making us like him more. I think it is more of the people who grew up with Pete Rose who like Freel’s hustle that was like Petes…but that is all of Pete’s game Freel has…
Also Pat Forde wrote an article last year on ESPN.com that was about how “weird” Cincinnati is because we support Josh Hamilton but look down upon Chris Henry…How is that the same thing. Hamilton was trying to work his way back to what he was and Chris Henry was still clubbing hitting on under aged girls after all of his legal problems and meetings with Roger Goodell. I’m not saying Cincy isn’t racist but it is everywhere and I’m getting real sick of us taking the slack all the time.
Norris Hopper's #1 fan!!!
by Zach K on May 8, 2008 9:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think it's a generational thing
College-age and high school students are less likely to be as racist as people 30 and over. I’m sick of Freel too, but there are plenty of people my age and older, who remember Pete Rose and how he played, who just love his hustling whiteness. Remember, black guys are never ‘hustling’ or ‘scrappy’, ya know.
I remember all the hateful stuff said about Eric Davis. Cincinnati fans have no sympathy for injury prone players. They want all their heroes to be ‘tough and hustling’ like Rose.
by cesarhernandez on May 8, 2008 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
Cincinnati and Philly sports fans for whatever reason are proud to be “Tough with their star players when they aren’t tough”. I think that majority of the college-age kids don’t really care we just want results that equal wins are better the team.
Norris Hopper's #1 fan!!!
by Zach K on May 8, 2008 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zach - I'm almost 60 and I remember (vaguely) what college was like in 1967.
Blacks were in school to ‘play’ ball
They weren’t invited into any fraternities (at a time when at my school 98% of students were Greeek).
I am no paragon of racial virtue – but I spent a fair amount of time demonstrating for civil rights = also equal acceptance. When I lived in Madison Wisc. we marched down state street and were hosed by the police
When I was in Berkley i ‘69 I got pepper gassed in the Bastille day riots (again for racial equality.
My youngewst daughter is in school now at OSU – She would agree to a point with – whomever gets the best results thats who should play. etc.she’s played basketball and soccer in high school and club soccer at college with all sorts of different races of women. She doesn’t see it either. But she will, when she comes back home to Cincy. She will when she gets into the real world.
Eeyore has more fun than a Reds fan.
by Madville on May 8, 2008 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Man....
Those must have been really interesting times to be in college. I hear stories about what it was like on campuses and find it totally fascinating.
Big difference when the people fighting in the war are your friends and classmates instead of poor people (like now), huh?
by bobestes on May 8, 2008 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do I detect
sarcasm?
Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds
by Caleb on May 8, 2008 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no no
didn’t mean anything bad. Just proposing an idea that if you compare the war now to the war in the 60’s, most people don’t really know the people that are fighting this one as intimately as they did Vietnam, given the all-volunteer army, which some (myself) believes disproportionately affects low-income americans.
Don’t see many kids from Indian Hill fighting in this one.
by bobestes on May 8, 2008 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's a kid from suburbia in the fight
You’d be surprised at the number of volunteers from Harvard, Cal, Stanford, and the like.
by buckeye22fox on May 8, 2008 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In theory
A draft is the only “fair” way to fight a war. Then every segment of the population has to serve.
by bobestes on May 8, 2008 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please don't send any forced entries my way
my “poor” sailors do just fine.
by buckeye22fox on May 8, 2008 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have nothing but respect for you
and everybody putting their lives on the line. But when I hear about recruiting difficulties and people serving up to SEVEN tours, I can’t help but think that the sacrifice is not begin shared equally in this country.
by ctnyc on May 9, 2008 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A little Milton Friedman
would help you on this topic and a lot of others, too, if you like capitalism.
by buckeye22fox on May 8, 2008 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ugh. I'm certainly no economist, but I've never like Friedman.
I’m more of a Galbraith person.
Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.
by andromache on May 8, 2008 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
gatewood?
he likes pot!
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on May 8, 2008 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
john kenneth
Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.
by andromache on May 8, 2008 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Garbage economist
that only poly sci majors like. Friedman proved him and Keynes wrong and that their philosophy could only result at best in stagflation. It has always amazed me how little liberal arts majors study economics. At least that was the way it was at The Ohio State University.
by buckeye22fox on May 8, 2008 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you'd be doubly surprised by how little
an engineering major studied economics.
Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.
by andromache on May 8, 2008 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey now,
some of us liberal arts majors take econ seriously…
in the sense that econ as we know it is seriously the problem, and not the solution to global inequality.
But you already know how I feel Buckeye.
Tanzen!
by Verka Serduchka on May 9, 2008 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hey, do you know hernando de soto?
the economist, not the explorer.
by Daedalus on May 9, 2008 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't think so.
Can you send me a link that would summarize his approach to economics?
Tanzen!
by Verka Serduchka on May 9, 2008 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes
he’s the president for the institute of liberty and democracy in peru. (the spanish site might have more info.) you can also find a lot on him at the the center for international private enterprise, a democracy organization.
he wrote “the other path” and “the mystery of capital,” the latter being a sort of rehash of the first. he wondered why free markets thrived in some countries but not others. basically he says that it comes down to property rights. in third world countries, many people earn their living from the informal economy. the dominance of this sector hinders economic growth. people in these countries have assets – what he calls dead capital – but since their businesses are informal, they can’t convert to working capital that can help grow their businesses.
the other path talks about how peru chased away the terrorist group “the shining path” by giving titles to cocoa farmers in the two biggest cocoa growing regions in peru, the shining path was deprived of recruits and money. the group went to the cities to find recruits, where their leaders were arrested. a fascinating read.
by Daedalus on May 9, 2008 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks.
I am heading home but I will be sure to check out his ideas and give my 2 pesos another day (perhaps when we take up sexism and homophobia).
This has been fun, I think a lot of things would begin to change if people just talked to each other more about things that matter.
Thanks you RedReporter.
Tanzen!
by Verka Serduchka on May 9, 2008 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh you said 'a little' Milton Friedman
Guess this is too big.
Eeyore has more fun than a Reds fan.
by Madville on May 8, 2008 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, like that ever happened
Dubya spent the war pretending to serve with a national guard unit.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on May 8, 2008 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unless you crank up the deferment system, of course.
"I'd walk through hell in a gasoline suit to play baseball" - Pete Rose
by Officer Dibble on May 9, 2008 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was just thinking about that
The port workers in California went on strike on May Day…to protest the war in Iraq. WTF? There was hardly any coverage of it, and it seemed really strange to me. A labor union, striking to protest the war?
Then I thought about some more. Back in the ‘60s, college kids were facing the draft, so they protested. Now, it’s blue collar kids who are doing the fighting. So it’s labor who is protesting.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on May 8, 2008 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
An interesting note:
We were discussing this the other day. College is a lot more expensive than it used to be. My grandfather was never more than a small farmer, and he still put three kids through college. Most of my friends worked 30 hours a week on top of 16 hours of classes. Much of the ‘activist’ component at colleges are being kept too busy to protest.
A lot of which is just justification – but the amount of money we pay per credit hour makes skipping class to go to a demonstration a lot less tenable.
Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.
by andromache on May 8, 2008 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But skipping class to go to a Reds game...
Would be worth it, if they didn’t suck.
At least it wasn't Grady Little.
by Paul Householder on May 8, 2008 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
even when they do
it is worth it
Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds
by Caleb on May 8, 2008 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That and the fact that our institutions of higher education have become glorified professional prep schools. It is hard to engage in the kind of intellectual inquiry and analysis necessary to create any meaningful protest movement when our colleges and universities are so busy preparing masses of accountants, teachers, lawyers, sales people.
by Bill Doran on May 8, 2008 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
The University in the past 30 years has moved away from the “professional school” model, probably to everyone’s detriment.
While some professions such as Law, Medicine and Business are still well-staffed and popular in Universities, specialized programs in the Humanities and Social Sciences have taken over for the kind of “job training” disciplines. Look at the death of “teacher’s colleges” and the move of “technical schools” off the University Campus proper.
You can not be a part of a University program today -even in the hard sciences – without being assured that the most important part of your education will be the intellectual inquiry and analysis into the social responsibilities and ramifications of your scholarship. It is suggested and repeated over and over.
Furthermore, University faculties, administrations and student groups actively promote protest and dissent. Take a stroll through any student union, common area, or classroom building and you will be inundated with invitations to protests, rallies, teach-ins and the like. The de facto position of every University faculty I’ve worked on is that fostering a specific and particular code of social justice is our first priority. We are encouraged to encourage our students to enter into the culture of dissent and are asked not to count absences for students who miss to attend larger political campus events. During my training to teach Freshman composition 5 years ago, we were given theoretical essays that explained that our social-constructivist approach to organizing the classroom was intended (fingers-crossed) to break down the notion of the “individual” as promoted by the military-industrial complex.
Regardless of what you think the University’s role should be in terms of these issues (I am, admittedly, conflicted about it), the bare fact is that the culture of protest and dissent we want today’s youth to be engaged in appears to them (based upon the model of the late ‘60s) as a behavior promoted by an established authority. It’s an oversimplification, but there is some truth to the idea that the radicals of the 60s have become part of the authority they rebelled against.
Whether University students want to engage in mass political dissent or not, they’ve shown, in my opinion, a widespread indifference to the types of dissent that denizens of the late twentieth century recognize.
So my point is that “the culture of dissent” is so prevalent at Universities that students, oddly, tend not to notice it.
'cause something is happening here, but you don't know what it is.
by Man Mountain on May 9, 2008 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what do you mean by this?
specialized programs in the Humanities and Social Sciences have taken over for the kind of "job training" disciplines.
Do you mean programs like “Womens Studies” or “African American Literature” or “Public Relations?”
by Daedalus on May 9, 2008 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cultural Studies programs, yes
Af-Am literature not so much.
Literature programs in general are getting smaller with respect to the University as a whole, particularly as we move towards a more amorphous and cross-disciplinary notion of what constitutes the Humanities.
What I’m disagreeing with in Bill’s post is the idea that Universities are becoming more like professional schools (i.e., preparing students for a particular profession rather than preparing them with a given set of theoretical tools).
It seems to me that the opposite is the case.
'cause something is happening here, but you don't know what it is.
by Man Mountain on May 9, 2008 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh, i agree with you
and i’m just coming to realize this. i’m job searching right now, and i realize that i’m not really prepared for any particular profession. the job market seems to be made for those who are, however. i studied political science. not once did i ever have a discussion with anyone in the real world at the time about what i could do with that. i figured that if i learned enough about the world, i could do anything i wanted.
yeah, there are jobs in politics. but they are specialized jobs like legislative assistants, etc. where you get the training is from internships, and well, i had to work and couldn’t afford to take an unpaid internship in DC that would allow me the training to get one of those jobs.
that’s my personal experience but i have observed others with similar issues.
by Daedalus on May 9, 2008 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
also i'm curious to know
what do you think about literature programs getting smaller?
by Daedalus on May 9, 2008 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's a whole book about this in my head
but to keep it short, I think it’s mostly just mutability.
“Studying” any literature outside the “classics” is only about 225 years old. Most people I meet tend to have a rather romantic notion of studying literature in college, but It’s a relatively new and ever-changing academic idea.
IMO the are two other major contributors to the “decline” of the discipline (and I mean that purely in terms of its importance and support with respect to the University).
1. There are simply other “narrative” art forms that seem more vital today like film, television, video games and multi-media. There’s still a stigma attached to “studying” stuff like video games, but that will slowly change. In any case, it’s the same sort of stigma that was attached to studying contemporary “novels” in the nineteenth century.
2. The way lit departments justified their existence has shifted from an amalgam of “seeking after truth” and canonical cultural literacy to promotion of social justice, unsettling of dominant cultural norms and a “scientific” approach to textual analysis. When it comes to these latter goals, there are other disciplines better suited to conduct that kind of inquiry. Thus the shift towards cultural studies, intellectual history and sociology and away from the literature professor as literature professor.
As a 20th century Brit guy, I spend much much more time reading, writing about, and discussing Marx, Gropius, newspaper circulations, Benjamin, early radio protocol at the BBC, circuses, etc. than I do Yeats or whatever.
'cause something is happening here, but you don't know what it is.
by Man Mountain on May 9, 2008 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with your analisis
that the general trend of higher learning institutions is towards theoretical tools and away from specific professions.
I understand this trend to be directly connected to the changing nature of our global economy, a change that geographer David Harvey explains by describing the shift from Fordist assembly line production of the first 2/3 of the 20th century to what he calls Flexible Accumulation:
[Flexible Accumulation is] marked by a direct confrontation with the rigidities of Fordism. It rests on flexibility with respect to labour processes, labour markets, products, and patterns of consumption. It is characterized by the emergence of entirely new sectors of production, new ways of providing financial services, new markets, and, above all, greatly intensified rates of commercial, technological, and organizational innovation. It has entrained rapid shifts in the patterning of uneven development, both between sectors and between geographical regions, giving rise, for example, to a vast surge in so-called ‘service-sector’ employment as well as to entirely new industrial ensembles in hitherto underdeveloped regions . . .
In other words, production and consumption patterns shift so fast today that it no longer makes sense to train folks in specific jobs but in broader, more general, skills.
I take Harvey over Friedman anyday with respect to understanding the global economy. Buckeye?
Tanzen!
by Verka Serduchka on May 9, 2008 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry,
let me cite my source
The quote is from page 147 of Harvey’s book, The Condition of Postmodernity
Tanzen!
by Verka Serduchka on May 9, 2008 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And yes,
as much as I loved putting theory into practice ,I do pine for academia at times.
Tanzen!
by Verka Serduchka on May 9, 2008 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
loved
and still love.
Talking to myself again…
Tanzen!
by Verka Serduchka on May 9, 2008 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I respect your right to talk about yourself
But I think we could do it better collectively.
;-)
'cause something is happening here, but you don't know what it is.
by Man Mountain on May 9, 2008 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
zing!
I am reaching you folks!
Tanzen!
by Verka Serduchka on May 9, 2008 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting perspective…
Perhaps this can be chalked up to our apparently divergent experiences in higher education. My graduate degrees are in History and Curriculum Design, and in my work I have found a consistent movement towards making courses (particularly survey level courses) more geared towards preparing our students for the job market. This is good for me, as a great deal of my research and work is geared towards developing more effective Social Studies content courses for future SS educators.
However, ever increasing program requirements (which leave many of our education students with practically no room for elective courses that spark their intellectual curiosity) and the efforts of administrators to make the university more marketable through the development of niche programs (Photochemical Sciences and Popular Culture here at BGSU) at the expense of what I rather flippantly refer to as the core liberal arts curriculum, along with a myriad of other institutional humbugs, have narrowed the reach that the social messages these courses can contain have on our student population. And since by far the largest programs, here at BG, at my alma mater Miami, and by and large through out most of the nation, are in fact business and education I feel that these problems are probably universal.
by Bill Doran on May 9, 2008 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
miami - you too? yay
by Daedalus on May 9, 2008 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hence the Doran!
And I must say that my BA in History left me just as ill prepared for the job market as your training in Political Science!
by Bill Doran on May 9, 2008 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Word
That English minor didn’t do me too many favors neither.
Actually, considering I worked in a bookstore for the two years after graduation, the History/English thing seems to be a really good way to go.
...to make $6.75/hr.
by Brendanukkah on May 9, 2008 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Miami Alum here, too. Huzzah!
"I've been rapping for about seventeen years, okay? I don't write my stuff anymore. I just kick it from my head. I can do that. No disrespect, but that's how I am."
by 3 Fast 3 Furious on May 9, 2008 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting about Miami
I won a Harrison Scholarship to Miami (full ride), but ended up turning it down. One of the things that turned me off of the school was that a number of racist vandalisms had occurred the day before my visit. There was a lot to like about Miami, but it’s a good illustration of how SW Ohio still has some distance to go towards eliminating racism.
by Brendanukkah on May 9, 2008 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
was that the time
the black student association blocked off the road? i was there. it felt nice to stand up for something, a real protest.
it didn’t change anything, though. at that time, miami had a 4% minority population – that’s all minorities – and i’m sure it hasn’t changed much in the nine years since i graduated.
by Daedalus on May 9, 2008 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oddly...
I turned down a full ride to OU that I received through their American History contest and turned it down because of what I saw at Miami during my visit (all the superficial beauty the school is so renowned for). The racism was still alive and well, although I didn’t really appreciate it until 9/11. I hesitate to place undue blame on SW Ohio for it at Miami, as a great many of our students were obnoxious rich white kids from Chicago, Columbus, and Cleveland in addition to Cincinnati.
by Bill Doran on May 9, 2008 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
superficial beauty
That’s an interesting phrase. My parents went to MU and I can see that. In looking at schools I visitied a lot of tobacco road schools-Davidson, Duke, Wake Forest-and I was struck by the same thing. There was an immaculate white-picket-fenceness, but it seemed like it was built by and on an antiquated white gentry/black labor dynamic. It made me feel… icky.
by Red Menace on May 10, 2008 4:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That Popular Culture program at BGSU is pretty renowned
There’s some good work that’s come out of it.
by Brendanukkah on May 9, 2008 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a fine program...
with some really fascinating work. However letting your History and Political Science departments (not to mention Economics, Psychology, et al) rot away while you flaunt your “great” (if being large makes one great) College of Education seems rather counter-productive.
by Bill Doran on May 9, 2008 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Totally off topic
How many Reds fans do you find in Bowling Green? I would think that most of the people there would cheer for the Tigers or the Indians.
by Brendanukkah on May 9, 2008 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right on the money
The locals are almost all Tigers fans and most of the students seem to be behind the Tribe.
by Bill Doran on May 9, 2008 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There was also...
...a lot more government funding, or so I’m told. People who went to college in the ‘60s and ‘70s tell me that they took out student loans at really low interest rates and invested the money, or blew on it sex, drugs, and rock and roll. The standards for students loans were a lot looser.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on May 9, 2008 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and
there was a hell of a lot of defaults on those loans. There are a whole bunch of “professionals” running around who never repaid a penny of Student Loans.
Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds
by Caleb on May 9, 2008 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Word
Everyone told my dad he was a dope for repaying his student loans. But he did it. It would never have occurred to him not to, even though money was really tight and everyone else was blowing ‘em off.
Today, student loans cannot even be erased with a bankruptcy. And it’s all those people who didn’t repay theirs that are the reason. IMO, student loans are going to be crippling for kids today. One, college debt has gotten so much greater than it used to be. College has gotten more expensive, and financial aid is harder to get (other than loans). And two, I think they’re likely to be working in an entirely different and more difficult economy than the baby boomers did.
Perhaps most painfully…the percentage of Americans who get degrees has not increased in recent decades, but the percentage that goes to college has jumped. That means there are a lot of kids going to college, but dropping out without getting a degree. They end up with debt, but not the diploma. The worst of both worlds.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on May 9, 2008 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's been a ton of work on this
and there are a lot of structural and population variables that make comparing the two eras tricky, but long story short, the socio-economic make-up of the military seems to be about the same.
'cause something is happening here, but you don't know what it is.
by Man Mountain on May 9, 2008 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
why?
because the rich kids bought their way out of the war?
by Daedalus on May 9, 2008 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, yes and no
As always, the history seems to be a lot more complicated than CCR songs.
'cause something is happening here, but you don't know what it is.
by Man Mountain on May 9, 2008 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
rec'd
'cause something is happening here, but you don't know what it is.
by Man Mountain on May 9, 2008 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh god
you sound like my high school teachers “Real world” what the hell am I in the “Fake world”?
Norris Hopper's #1 fan!!!
by Zach K on May 8, 2008 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry Zach...that was rather parental of me...
What I mean is that once you are out of a somewhat protected environment ( where most of the your colleagues are of similar age and are not directly competing for your life’s sustenance) then you you will eventually have to face a different reality. That reality is one where winning is rewarded with money and power and winning is defined by those with money and power, Those who have money and power for the most part are elite and white. they don’t give a rats ass about anything during the business process that doesn’t add to the bottom line. They have to find ways to produce and win, or their companies fail, their jobs are eliminated and they lose the ability to provide adequately to sustain their standard of living. The ruling class does not like the following folks getting into their circle:
Chinks
Negroes
Gooks (Vietnamese)
Pakistanis and Indians
Hispanics
Africans
Gays and Lesbos (who actually are proud of their orientation)
Feminists
the list goes on. I am really not exaggerating. The country as a whole has made a lot of good progress since my college days – hell we’ll either have a Black, a Woman or a Senior Citizen as our next president…unheard of 35 years ago. But in the seamy underbelly of business and politics there is still a strong current that says=White is Right and Money is Power and the Victors write the History.
And Dunn is the problem with the Reds, but at least he’s not a mouthy, uppity nigger.
Eeyore has more fun than a Reds fan.
by Madville on May 8, 2008 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I know what you ment
but seriously have some PC with that last post ha
Norris Hopper's #1 fan!!!
by Zach K on May 8, 2008 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
Trust me on this.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on May 8, 2008 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shows how much times have changed, 'Ville.
They weren’t invited into any fraternities (at a time when at my school 98% of students were Greeek).
An interesting parallel is that I go to Xavier, in Cincinnati, where all fraternities are outlawed, EXCEPT the black fraternity.
"My wife ain't never ran and got me no pheasant." - Fistbands
by BK on May 8, 2008 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dumb question...
Why are we “frustrated with Griffey’s injury history,” but Freel gets a pass because “we all love a guy who gives it his all?” I’d venture to say they’ve missed about the same number of games the past few years. Griffey’s injuries have been torn muscles and tendons, not exactly something you can play through. Freel’s the guy who sits with tweaks and pulls. But, somehow, Freel’s injuries are almost seen as redeeming, while Griffey’s are worthy of scorn.
When Griff goes down holding his leg, what’s the first reaction? “Oh, god. Here we go again.”
When Freel comes out of a game injured, the reaction is “Hope he’s OK . We need that sparkplug.”
Why the double standard? Do you honestly think there’s absolutely no racial element in the difference in how Freel and Griffey are treated?
"Karma - there it was. The meaning of life, straight from Carson Daly's lips to my morphine-laced ears." -Earl Hickey
by BLee2525 on May 8, 2008 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well that is a matter of a person perception
I and my fellow peers don’t root for any player to get injured {Except Vina when he used to play}. I honestly think people in Cincinnati base on what they think of they player based on if he wears his emotion every time he plays or if he is calm and looks like he not trying. Look at Adam Dunn who has been the hot topic the past two years for the reds. He is the best offensive player we have had but he doesn’t look like he is putting in 100%...I myself before learning from many great baseball people on this blog thought this was true and that is why sports fans don’t care for Griffey or Dunn.
i’m not saying there’s no racial element to people thinking that way it would be idealistic to think that. I mean it was just over 40 years ago that every human being in America could sit on the bus next to each other where ever they wanted! As I said before since I’m younger then most here I just see things as when someone says or wishes bad on someone as a hateful act. That is why I think “Hate Crimes” are stupid…if you are going to try to murder someone of course you hate them…
Norris Hopper's #1 fan!!!
by Zach K on May 8, 2008 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not race
Freel is a bad comparison to Griffey because Freel looks like he is hustling. Freel/Hopper or Freel/Phillips are better comparisons, because both look like they hustle and everyone in Cincy loves both. Griffey/Dunn is the right comparison – everyone in Cincy hates both because they look like they are not trying.
by Erock02139 on May 8, 2008 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's the problem
There’s a racial element to the perception of “hustle.” Look at the list of nominees for the “Look Again” award I posted above. When you see articles written about “scrappy” guys who “play the game the right way” and “hustle” and have “heart,” they are almost invariably written about white guys. Eckstein. Erstad. Freel. Eckstein. LoDuca. Wright. Ecksten. I can think of 2.5 non-white guys (Hunter, Figgins, and Jeter) who are often written about that way.
"Karma - there it was. The meaning of life, straight from Carson Daly's lips to my morphine-laced ears." -Earl Hickey
by BLee2525 on May 8, 2008 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Holiday Inn
may be racist, but that does not mean that Cincinnati is. Norris Hopper and Phillips are both scrappy guys who are loved by Cincinnati. I think Cincinnati fans lack an updated understanding of the game because they still have an announcer who believes its 1977 – but that does not mean the town is racist.
by Erock02139 on May 8, 2008 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really don't think that your average white Reds fan would want their daughter dating either of these men.
Zach man loves NoHo…I don’t know who really could love BP more than he already loves himself.
Eeyore has more fun than a Reds fan.
by Madville on May 8, 2008 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Although I am not white...
I would not want my daughter dating NoHo because he can’t seem to hit the ball out of the infield.
At least it wasn't Grady Little.
by Paul Householder on May 8, 2008 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'm pretty sure that paul householder is white
i just checked your picture, and i think i’m right
you are the real paul householder, right?
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on May 8, 2008 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes I am.
And I am the czar of all the Russians also.
At least it wasn't Grady Little.
by Paul Householder on May 8, 2008 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
awesome
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on May 8, 2008 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah but he would only get to first base with her then...
Norris Hopper's #1 fan!!!
by Zach K on May 8, 2008 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
OK.
You may have a loony view of what is racist and what is not, but this was genuinely funny.
Rec’d.
At least it wasn't Grady Little.
by Paul Householder on May 8, 2008 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i also rec'd it...
This means that Zach is no longer posting reclessly!
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on May 8, 2008 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of schools where the hell is Crolfer tonight?
This is the kind of discussion that he’s probably already had in Junior year civics class.
Eeyore has more fun than a Reds fan.
by Madville on May 8, 2008 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
History
Well, I’m going to fuck up historical facts left and right, so correct me where I’m wrong.
But, if memory serves me correctly, Cincinnati was ground zero for freed slaves making it out of the South. In fact, most of the city’s poorest African American population is directly descended from such folks. You’re talking about people whose familes have known nothing but being poorer than dirt from day one.
So, you had a ton of freed slaves coming over and putting down roots (or trying to make a life) in Cincinnati, specifically the West End, where Union Terminal is today. I’ll get back to the West End in a second.
Naturally, they competed for low-paying jobs working on the docks and such (the Ohio River was a superhighway back then), directly with other fairly not-well-to-do segments of the population, including the recent German immigrants.
To the best of my knowledge, German immigrants had a much easier time “melting” into society; when you’re 2nd or 3rd generation German and you don’t have an accent, it’s hard for people to hold that against you like they do your skin color. But prejudice and resentment gets passed down like hair color.
Coming back to the West End, this was pretty much a totally African-American neighborhood in the early part of the 20th Century. So basically, it was considered a slum. So the city had a policy where they literally bulldozed the entire neighborhood and kicked everybody out. Problem solved, right? Well, many of the German immigrants were ditching Over the Rhine for places like Corryville, Clifton and Sharonville, so most of the African-American population ended up there in OTR.
So, OTR went from a working-class hood to a pretty poor neighborhood. Around the 1960’s, there was an influx of poor folk from appalachia, and where did they settle? OTR.
Now you have poor people of different races living side by side, and not necessarily peacefully.
So you’ve got people of German descent who are passing down their prejudice against blacks, you’ve got people of appalachian descent doing the same thing, and you’ve got the people that were here all along not ever really wanting to have anything to do with blacks anyway.
Point being, Cincinnati has had this mixing of the races that hasn’t gone very well, by virtue of its location and history. Much differently than a place like Columbus or even Dayton. Old attitudes and prejudices die hard.
And it’s my opinion that it’s the typical white Cincinnatian response to say to the Pat Fordes of the world “screw you, we’re sick of everyone calling us racist”. Cincinnati isn’t racist, but it’s not open-minded, either.
by bobestes on May 8, 2008 9:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Keep in mind
Even though Cincinnati was a free state, it’s not like white people up here were exactly thrilled with freed slaves coming over and putting down roots.
by bobestes on May 8, 2008 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was also going to say
something along the lines how the city is made of German and Applachians, and their racist attitudes, but ya beat me to it.
Remember, this is the city that only 20 or so years ago had the owner of a major sports franchise referring to her players as “million-dollar n-—-.” And some people still loved her. Marge was quite the battle axe. She reminded me a lot of my German grandmother.
by cesarhernandez on May 8, 2008 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about Dunn?
I think this is a case of believing what you want to believe and/or what you are told. Dunn is the Reds best offensive player, and the national media seems to like him, but in Cincinnati, they hate him (see e.g., Daugherty and Brennamen). Meanwhile, they love Norris Hopper, and by far the most popular Red is Brandon Phillips.
Basically, I don’t think Griffey’s race is the problem.
by Erock02139 on May 8, 2008 9:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Dunn doesn't look like he's trying
He’s looks like a clumsy, lazy oaf in the field and that’s what pisses idiot fans off. Oh yeah, and remember, strikeouts are the devil’s candy.
by cesarhernandez on May 8, 2008 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And?
I agree with you that Cincy fans can be moronic in their idolization of Marty and Daugherty and villification of Dunn, but my point is that their wilingness to love Hopper/Phillips in spite of obvious downfalls and hate Dunn in spite of obvious abilities shows that it is the hustle factor, not race that makes people not like Griffey.
by Erock02139 on May 8, 2008 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that the hustle factor
is more important, especially in Cincy, land of Pete Rose. Also, I think Griffey actually gets more of a pass from the Cincy fans/media because he’s a link to the glorious Big Red Machine through his father, and that he’s from Cincy.
I think if his name was “Ken Griffin” with no ties to this area, you’d see a LOT more venom than is already directed his way.
by cesarhernandez on May 8, 2008 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is true.
However, Ken Griffin would have had little or no incentive to have ever come to play in Cincinnati. He might have stayed in Seattle with Alex Rodgers and Andy “Large Member” Johnson.
I don't know how to paint a banana gourd to look like a Power Ranger.
by Fat Vegas Alan on May 8, 2008 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Griffey has been under his Dad's thumb for-fucking-ever
I truly believe tha he came back here to get parental approval.
Eeyore has more fun than a Reds fan.
by Madville on May 8, 2008 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
Weren’t the Reds really the only team to go hard after him? I mean we traded a bunch of stiffs for Griffey.
by bobestes on May 8, 2008 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I recall
(and perhaps I’m misremembering) other teams were interested, but the Mariners were pretty much over a barrel when Griffey announced that he would only accept a trade to the Reds. That would certainly account for the less-than-stellar return for the Mariners.
by ctnyc on May 9, 2008 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who says that BP is the most popular ? Go to a game and see how many Griffey and Dunn jerseys are being worn and then try to find like 5 BP jerseys.
Eeyore has more fun than a Reds fan.
by Madville on May 8, 2008 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's Phillips
Jerseys are expensive so they’re a lagging indicator. Here’s a survey where Cincinnati fans chose Phillips as the biggest star attraction. I think he showed up in one by ESPN this spring too.
Which player on your team is the most worth paying to watch?
Brandon Phillips 35.6%
Ken Griffey Jr. 31.7%
Aaron Harang 14.4%
Adam Dunn 7.4%
Ryan Freel 5.9%
Yup, Ryan Freel.
by Red Menace on May 9, 2008 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Edinson Volquez!
Johnny Cueto!
Joey Votto!
And last year it was Josh Hamilton. Did I tell you about this game I saw where he made this throw…?
by Brendanukkah on May 9, 2008 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of the Wagon del pueblo
He was interviewed on the radio here yesterday (I didn’t hear it but I found this article about it).
Basically he said he has worked hard to get where he is this year, but, to be honest, the NL is weak sauce compared to the AL:
``He trabajado duro para llegar donde me encuentro en estos momentos, pero tengo que admitir que la Liga Nacional es más débil que la Americana’‘
He also said that even though he could win 20 games this year he won’t lose his humility and he plans on returning to the DR Winter League to pitch for the Toros del Este:
``No pierdo la humildad, sigo siendo la misma persona y aunque pueda llegar a ganar 20 juegos, tengo planes de lanzar otra vez con los Toros del Este en la pelota invernal (dominicana)’‘
Finally he has expressed a desire to pitch in the World Baseball Classic the happens every four years.
Look forward to seeing Edwin and Edinson down here after Christmas, I just hope that VW takes it easy andn only pitches a few games like Cueto did this past year.
Tanzen!
by Verka Serduchka on May 9, 2008 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not so fast!
pero tengo que admitir que la Liga Nacional es más débil que la Americana’‘
Someone needs to tell Edinson that for only the second time since the onset of the DH, the NL is outscoring and outhitting the AL.
2008 AL NL Batting Average .256 .259 On-Base Average .329 .333 Slugging Percentage .392 .409 Runs per Game 4.4 4.6
http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=408997
by Red Menace on May 9, 2008 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Must be all the artillery in the NL
Tanzen!
by Verka Serduchka on May 9, 2008 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviosuly those surveyed don't go to the games and buy Jersey's
Eeyore has more fun than a Reds fan.
by Madville on May 9, 2008 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Give Cincinnati time . . .
We’ll run Phillips out of town too. Unless he plays the media like Larkin did, but we know that’s not going to happen.
by Brian B on May 9, 2008 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not totally sold.
Far be it from me to get into a discussion like this, but I’m far from sold that this is actually a racial issue. Everyone likes to just stir the pot and since he is African American and hinted at the fact he wants to leave every throws that around.
I think people in Cincinnati and even outside when talking about Cincinnati just love to throw race into everything which always makes it worse.
Personally I loved Barry Larkin, Eric Davis, and Pokey Reese. Add to that Sean Casey, Jason Larue (quit laughing) and Jose Rijo.
Any like for Sabo quickly vanished the day he corked (superballed) his bat. Next time Ryan Freel goes down I’ll say here we go again and Pete Rose can just suck it for lying to everyone all of those years (not that I believed him.)
Outside of the Reds, Clemens is a POS, Bonds bites the big one and I never understood how Darryl Strawberry got away with as much as he did.
I don’t know, I just think everyone is making a bigger deal that should be.. I vaguely remember when Griffey left Seattle it wasn’t on good terms and had death threats and racist remarks thrown about, peoples memory is very short.
-Do not play golf behind Dave Parker.
by snohio on May 8, 2008 9:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I grew up with a racist father
When I was a kid, I of course would follow the Reds, Bengals and OSU football religiously. My dad was pretty busy with his work, so I would be his primary source for what’s new with the team. Whenever the Reds got a new player, whether from the minors or from trade, one of the first questions out of my Dad’s mouth would be “Is he white or black?”
My dad’s two most-hated Reds players were Dan Driessen and Eddie Milner. In the 80s, he like Ron Oester and Nick Esasky a lot. After Milner’s came, anytime the Reds had a young, kinda speedy black outfielder, dad would say “Oh great, another Eddie Milner.”
by cesarhernandez on May 8, 2008 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Driessen
was always one of my least favorite players. Not because he was black but because he replaced Tony Perez
Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds
by Caleb on May 8, 2008 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dad always mentioned the Perez thing
too, but he also would bring up the race thing, calling him lazy and such.
by cesarhernandez on May 8, 2008 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thank god you are here to make some sense...
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on May 8, 2008 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's what I just don't get
Why Pete Rose is a hero in Cincinnati. I don’t know if it’s because people love a rebel, but he was an asshole when he played here, and more or less shit on Reds fans everywhere by betting on baseball.
by bobestes on May 8, 2008 9:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Don't get me started...
"Karma - there it was. The meaning of life, straight from Carson Daly's lips to my morphine-laced ears." -Earl Hickey
by BLee2525 on May 8, 2008 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reds fans loved Pete
because he was one of them. Local boy from the rough section of town made good, and his style of play was what was idealized. The myth was he was good because he busted his butt and worked hard, overcoming his shortcomings. That image spoke to the working man, the immigrant, trying to get ahead. The truth is that while Rose did work damn hard, he was also a damn talented hitter with plenty of natural ability.
by cesarhernandez on May 8, 2008 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Larkin & Jr.
That was one of the reasons I like Larkin and Jr. It always helps being the hometown kid. Granted the latter grew up with money and talent and went to a good school.
I’ve played softball with Byron (co-ed low level rec league where he had no business playing) and he was actually the nicest guy we ever played against (and his team took that persona).
I think personally think there is as much if not more elitism in Cincinnati than racism, but the racism gets more of the “blame” if you will. In my opinion, BobEstes is very much on the right track. You can look at the Eastside / Westside “rivalry” and it is not about race, it is about differences on how one is raised and what social and or economic class they are in.
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