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Great Game, But ...

H_tiny by JD Arney on

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Um, WTF Dusty?

Can't really see the reasoning behind that in a game the Reds were winning 9-0. And it's not like the bullpen needs resting the day before an off day.

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agreed

The oddest thing was that nobody was warming up. If Aramis had gotten a hit and things fell apart Edinson would have had to throw quite a few more pitches while the bullpen got going.

Volquez got out of the inning by digging deep and getting some extra life on his fastball. Brantley was very impressed by the speed, but that’s when things get very dangerous for a young arm.

by Red Menace on May 7, 2008 7:29 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Agreed

after whoever it was singled, the Cubs broadcast showed the bullpen coach taking the tarp off of the mounds.

'cause something is happening here, but you don't know what it is.

by Man Mountain on May 7, 2008 7:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

That's been photoshopped

I can’t find anywhere on the net where the pitches have been circled. How do you expect Dusty to notice if it hasn’t been highlighted for him?

I’m only concerned about the pitch count because of two reasons:
1. Volquez pitched a lot with men on base today. High pressure innings where he had to step it up.
2. Volquez was struggling in his last inning. He walked 2 and seemed to be pressing to finish the inning. It’s unnecessary stress in a 9-0 game.

But it was a fun win, so I’m going to remain blissfully ignorant and hope that the unnecessary pitches don’t come back to haunt us.

It gets crazy on the road, and awful lonely. That's why I love pornography. This next song is all about my love of hardcore, barely legal pornography.

by Slyde on May 7, 2008 7:30 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

I'm going to disagree a little

I’m a little weird in saying this, but I want our young pitchers to struggle here and there. I’d rather them traverse those situations with a nine run cushion as opposed to a one run game. Baseball at the MLB level is a mental game more than a physical one

I say that Edinson learned that he can pull his own ass out of the fire he created today. That seed will bear great fruit in the future, say next year when it matters.

Please Note: I may be totally full of shit.

by jch24 on May 7, 2008 10:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I have no problem with him struggling

but he was struggling all day and getting himself out of the fire. I don’t believe it was necessary in the 7th inning. He only had one 1-2-3 inning all game. I don’t think there is anything wrong with taking him out in the seventh because he looks gassed.

It gets crazy on the road, and awful lonely. That's why I love pornography. This next song is all about my love of hardcore, barely legal pornography.

by Slyde on May 8, 2008 6:26 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Pretty funny interview with Votto

ESPN news interviewed Votto by phone about the 3 jacks and Adam Dunn pestered him the entire time. Pretty entertaining.

The season doesn't start until the Cincinnati Reds take the field! Reclaim The Opener!!

by TheC on May 7, 2008 8:00 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Seriously...

How can anybody not like this guy?

"Karma - there it was. The meaning of life, straight from Carson Daly's lips to my morphine-laced ears." -Earl Hickey

by BLee2525 on May 7, 2008 8:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I don't know what channel this is on Adam!

In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.

by chandrathan on May 7, 2008 9:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

i get the feeling that Adam Dunn

is like the dude on my high school basketball team that would sneak up behind you in the locker room shower and pee on your leg.

If you don't get a good-night kiss, you get Kafka dreams.

by Charlie Scrabbles on May 7, 2008 9:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

did he tell you it was raining?

In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.

by chandrathan on May 7, 2008 9:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

no

but he would wipe his ass with your towel when you werent looking. i think he’s a teacher now.

If you don't get a good-night kiss, you get Kafka dreams.

by Charlie Scrabbles on May 7, 2008 9:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

he should die

In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.

by chandrathan on May 7, 2008 9:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Reminds me of:


This guy and

Eyore has more fun than a Reds fan.

by Madville on May 7, 2008 8:35 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

This guy even more

/Mark-Prior—First-Game-Photograph-C10108942.jpeg&imgrefurl=http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/90557&h=129&w=103&sz=25&tbnid=4_EtkWnYow4J:&tbnh=129&tbnw=103&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dphoto%2Bof%2Bmark%2Bprior&hl=en&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=1&ct=image&cd=3”/>

Eyore has more fun than a Reds fan.

by Madville on May 7, 2008 8:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Really?

People Don't Kill People. Burning Couches Kill People.

by crolfer on May 7, 2008 8:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I mean this guy

If the picture turns out

Eyore has more fun than a Reds fan.

by Madville on May 7, 2008 8:44 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

I don't see 118 pitches as a huge deal when a pitcher has 6 starts under his belt already

The bullpen has been hit pretty hard in the past 10 days with Ceuto and Arroyo’s outings that lasted less than 2 innings. It does concern me that he had nobody warming up as EV’s pitch count got close to 120. I don’t like to see pitchers go above 120, and this sends up a red flag that Dusty is going to flat out ignore pitch counts in games that are out of hand, I am pretty sure that Prior and Wood had some incredibly high pitch counts in September in games that the Cubs had comfortable leads. I would be a little more concerned if he let Cueto or Bailey throw that many pitches on a regular bases because they are a little younger. EV logged a combined 178.2 innings last season and 154 in 2006, so I don’t think 118 pitches is that crazy. It wouldn’t be unthinkable to pencil Volquez in for 200 innings this season.

The Dusty Path to the World Series!*

*Note this is not an endorsment of Dusty Baker.

by justin007000 on May 7, 2008 8:59 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

i just had another thought

I am a little more concerned now that Waynes gone. I think Wayne had some limits for the young pitchers that Walt won’t have. We all saw what happened to Matt Morris in St. Louis. TLR abused him, he had an injury early in his career, bounced back for a few impressive seasons, but now his career is over at a seemingly young age. I have not seen anything in writing about Krivksy keeping tabs on the pitchers, but I am inferring he would because of his caution with Homer Bailey.

The Dusty Path to the World Series!*

*Note this is not an endorsment of Dusty Baker.

by justin007000 on May 7, 2008 9:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Pitch counts

If you look at pitch counts that past couple of years, it looks like Krivsky had it at about 120 max. There were a few instances where pitchers went over 120 (Arroyo last year, and the team took a lot of flack for it) but it seems that pitchers typically were pulled in the 110’s at the latest.

So far this year, pitch counts seem the same. Harang and Arroyo under 120, Volquez was 100 at first, 120 lately, and Cueto only over 100 once, I think. Like you said, we’ll see what the Walt/Baker combo brings.

For all the crap Baker gets about pitch counts, it’s interesting to look at his pitch counts when he first started out in San Francisco. When Bob Quinn was the GM, Baker’s pitch counts were 100 or less more than half the time. When Sabaen took over, the sky was the limit.

For this game, I think he started the inning under 100. I let him start the inning, but I also have thepen warming up. I would have pulled Volquez after the walk.

by rojosoto on May 7, 2008 9:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

"it wouldnt be unthinkable to pencil Volquez in for 200 innings this season"

not if his arm falls off in August.

now of course that is a bit hyperbolic, but seriously. with everything we know about youth and pitch-counts there is no excuse for letting someone like EV throw 118 pitches in a game. in any game. ESPECIALLY in a game led by 9 runs. but ESPECIALLY in a game where the ‘pen has the next day off. i can tolerate a certain amount of ignorance from my baseball team, i mean, they just arent going to know how to run a team as well as i can. but something as rudimentary as pitch counts has to be on like page 4 of Dusty’s orientation booklet.

If you don't get a good-night kiss, you get Kafka dreams.

by Charlie Scrabbles on May 7, 2008 9:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Volquez will probably get an extra day off before his next start

If he goes over 110 in his next start I will be concerned, but it he goes over 110 once every 6 or 7 starts I don’t think his arm will fall off. But like I said the biggest reason I am concerned is Dusty and Walt’s track record.

The Dusty Path to the World Series!*

*Note this is not an endorsment of Dusty Baker.

by justin007000 on May 7, 2008 9:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Define Jocketty's track record

Here’s Morris’s rookie season in 1997. LaRussa the manager and Jocketty the GM.

He was kept under 100 pitches per game (except for a 103 count start on May 11) until the 2nd to last start in May. That May 23 start was 116 pitches. He stayed at or below 110 until July 16. Other than one 121 pitch start on July 21, he never exceeded 120 pitches.

by rojosoto on May 7, 2008 9:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I'm not seeing why 110 pitches

is the magical number. For some guys it might be 80, others 125

Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds

by Caleb on May 8, 2008 2:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I was at the game (LUCKY ME!)

I couldn’t see the pitch count but I figured it was over 110. The concerning thing is that Edinson always pitches well enough to put up this kind of pitch count every game. Plus he was laboring, as Cueto was the other day. Its troubling. I hope it is reigned in.

by Blue on May 7, 2008 9:43 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

this is what makes his performance so earth-shattering

its obvious he still has work to do. this is a dude leading the NL in Ks and ERA and HE STILL HAS WORK TO DO!! HE CAN GET BETTER!! oh, and his name is not Homer, neither is it Cueto. this is so awesome!

If you don't get a good-night kiss, you get Kafka dreams.

by Charlie Scrabbles on May 7, 2008 9:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I like where you're head's at

Seriously, the young talent on this team makes me giddy. I have no idea why they’re dragging their feet on Bailey and Bruce. They should be up here tomorrow.

by Brendanukkah on May 7, 2008 10:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

You have to tell us

obc and I were at the game. You need to meet us so we seem like real people, damnit. :)

Please Note: I may be totally full of shit.

by jch24 on May 7, 2008 10:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Well unless the Reds skip Bronson

He will get an extra days rest. How ugly does the Saturday matchup look? Arroyo vs. Santana. Yuck.

Find me on MySpace- http://www.myspace.com/mixfmkyle

by MixFMKyle on May 7, 2008 10:29 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

mightaswell start the weakest pitcher against Santana

and hedge bets of the other two games. It would be better if the other two starters came from the group of Harang, Volquez, and Cueto, not Matt Belise.

The Dusty Path to the World Series!*

*Note this is not an endorsment of Dusty Baker.

by justin007000 on May 7, 2008 10:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Brantley said it best the other day...

Its garbage that a quality start is considered 6 innings of work. I think Dusty is trying to send a message that he expects his picthers to put in 7 innings of solid baseball.

by joektoe on May 7, 2008 10:54 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Rob DIbble said the same thing on XM radio.

It is so easy for relievers who work 1-2 innings, at most 3, unless it is an unusual situation, to say well starting pitchers should throw a lot of innings. Brantley was a starter for a brief period of time and was pretty awful.

The Dusty Path to the World Series!*

*Note this is not an endorsment of Dusty Baker.

by justin007000 on May 7, 2008 11:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

The odd thing about "quality starts"...

...is that I don’t think I’ve very often heard them discussed except by analysts and PBP guys casting aspersions at the defining parameters of a “quality start.”

FWIW, I think that Vin Scully created the term (and said parameters) in order to give some credit to an MLB team’s back-of-the-rotation guys when they go out and “keep their team in it.” It’s a nice way to say, “Hey, will you look at that… Matt Belisle didn’t throw up all over his dick today.”

I think “quality” is kind of supposed to be spoken softly and applied loosely. Kinda like saying “Glad All Over” by the DC5 is a quality rock and roll recording.

I’ve got no problem with that. (And I’ve got no problem with Vin.)

I don't know how to paint a banana gourd to look like a Power Ranger.

by Fat Vegas Alan on May 7, 2008 11:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   1 recs

i think there is something to the quality start stat

I know that much of it depends on luck and it doesn’t do much to predict the future, but I like the starters to go at least 6 innings. I am more concerned about innings than earned runs, because generally if a guy is going 6 or 7 innings he isn’t giving up too many runs unless the bullpen is really really hurting.

The Dusty Path to the World Series!*

*Note this is not an endorsment of Dusty Baker.

by justin007000 on May 7, 2008 11:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

quality

You hear it all the time. “They call 6 innings and 3 runs a Quality Start. That’s a 4.50 ERA! That’s not exactly what I’d call quality. Bob Gibson used to… grumble… grumble…”

These critics always fail to grasp that those parameters are the minimum requirements. Rob Neyer once looked at the ERAs of pitchers from the past year in their Quality Starts and Wins. In Quality Starts pitchers had a substantially lower ERA (and other peripherals). That makes sense if you think about it. Pitchers can give up any number of runs and still get the win. The only bar to cross is 5 innings and Quality Start goes one better than that.

For what it is QS is a very useful tool. Peyton Manning doesn’t play defense and starting pitchers aren’t expected to pitch 7+ innings every time out. Times change.

by Red Menace on May 7, 2008 11:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

does winning factor into quality start?

Should not the team be required to get the victory? Or at the very least, the pitcher should be in line to get the victory when he exits the game.

Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds

by Caleb on May 8, 2008 2:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

So Harang's start on Tuesday was not quality?

It gets crazy on the road, and awful lonely. That's why I love pornography. This next song is all about my love of hardcore, barely legal pornography.

by Slyde on May 8, 2008 2:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I'm just asking?

Or is this one of those times when winning is over valued? Was it a good game by Aaron? yes. Was it a great game? no.

I just think the QS stat is one of those BS things created for the sole purpose of $$.

Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds

by Caleb on May 8, 2008 2:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I don't disagree

that’s why I’d rather look at Game Score than quality start. Then again, I don’t really look at either that much.

It gets crazy on the road, and awful lonely. That's why I love pornography. This next song is all about my love of hardcore, barely legal pornography.

by Slyde on May 8, 2008 2:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I don't understand

For the sole purpose of $$? Who’s making money?

by Red Menace on May 8, 2008 6:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

brendan's mom, for one

Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on May 8, 2008 6:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I bet the "quality starts" get thrown around by the agents of second and third tier starters.

But I don’t know if that’s what Caleb meant.

I don't know how to paint a banana gourd to look like a Power Ranger.

by Fat Vegas Alan on May 8, 2008 6:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

What's worse?

A couple extra pitches? Or pitching someone 3 days in a row that’s had, say, recent shoulder trouble?
You decide, 2008!

He had alot to say.
He had alot of nothing to say.
We'll miss him.

by sukr on May 7, 2008 11:13 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

yeah

didn’t Dusty openly worry about Brays durability during spring training? Well I guess the best way to find out if he is durable is to pitch him 3 days in a row. I guess this is still better than last June when Narron ran Majewksi out there 15 times in 8 days.

The Dusty Path to the World Series!*

*Note this is not an endorsment of Dusty Baker.

by justin007000 on May 7, 2008 11:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Clownboy is living in the past (along w/the AntiClog)

Back in the early 20th century up until around 1965 or so starting pitchers were pretty much expected to go for at least 7 or 8 innings. Times and expectations have changed. David Weathers suggested that Brantley Shut the Fuck up or go get his uni on and get out on the field and pitch. DW was talking about JB’s tirade on desire, but I think Stormy’s response fits just as nicely here.

You see, Jeff and Rob, good managers today, are armed with all kinds (statistical) information that wasn’t available back in the day. And they are able to make winning adjustments, set up highly functional lineups, oversee their bull pens and know the limits of their starters. So while you guys and Dusty complain about how great the old ‘Dodger Way’ was….the Reds continue to flail.

Eeyore has more fun than a Reds fan.

by Madville on May 7, 2008 11:17 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

it is different

the game is more offensive than it was 50 years ago. Guys are stronger and there are more quality hitters now than there were at that time. At that time positions like shortstop and second base were seen as primarily defensive positions and as long as they stayed above .200 it was ok. Now catcher is the only position where it is acceptal for a guy to be defensivly minded, and that is only to a certain point.

I think the hitters have changed more than the pitchers. Guys always threw 95 mph. That is more of a talent than anything else. A fatfuck like Mike Stanton can hit the high 80’s so conditioning doesn’t have that much to do with velocity. A position player can go to the weight room, (or pharmacy) and add on 10 or 15 homeruns in a season. A pitcher can’t go into a weight room and add 10 miles onto his fastball.

The other change is in 1968(?) the mound was lowered. I think that has also helped the offense.

Plus there is still the unexplained mystery as too why more pitchers get hurt today than 50 years ago. Is it that pitchers always did get hurt, but the talent was as deluted so it wasn’t as noticable? Is it the mound being lowerd? Is it that it wasn’t as noticable because a guy would get hurt lose effectiveness, and bow out because there weren’t Tommy John and Shoulder surgeries weren’t performed? Has floradation affected their precious bodily flulids causing them to lose their essence? It has even changed in the last 20 years. I am pretty sure Maddux threw over 150 pitches a few times in his younger days. He seems to have had little ill effect. But now a young guy throws 118 pitches and that is a danger zone.

The Dusty Path to the World Series!*

*Note this is not an endorsment of Dusty Baker.

by justin007000 on May 7, 2008 11:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Is it that pitchers always did get hurt, but the talent was as deluted so it wasn’t as noticable?

Seems like you could make the argument that talent is more diluted now than, say, 1947-1960. With more teams in the league now there are more pitchers in MLB who would have been in the minors before.

Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds

by Caleb on May 8, 2008 2:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

One could also argue

that the player pool is a lot larger and the training regimens are better refined. The system has evolved more than the talent has been diluted.

And I don’t believe that there are more injuries than in the past. I just think the issue is watched more closely now since there is a great deal more money involved for the players.

It gets crazy on the road, and awful lonely. That's why I love pornography. This next song is all about my love of hardcore, barely legal pornography.

by Slyde on May 8, 2008 2:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

exactly $$

but I think there are guys who would not have made a roster in pre expansion days pitching today. On the flip side there were a lot of guys who would not have been able to play today.

Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds

by Caleb on May 8, 2008 2:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Add into this the kids..

You need to consider the number of kids playing baseball too. How many kids were playing ball in that to draw from versus today with their fancy soccer and intercity basketball and all. That’s also approaching the baby boomer era. One could argue that the talent pool has been reduced just because less kids are playing. But I guess now you increase the talent pool over that era with all of the international players and worldwide scouting.

This could really be an interesting discussion!

-Do not play golf behind Dave Parker.

by snohio on May 8, 2008 2:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Well

I think the International factor is pretty huge. In 1960, 95% of all innings were pitched by players born in the U.S. In 2007, that number was down to 75%. Similarly, 90% of the plate appearances in 1960 were from U.S. born players, that number was just 71% last season. I bet if we did something more sophisticated like compare Win Share percentages we’d find an even larger shift.

It gets crazy on the road, and awful lonely. That's why I love pornography. This next song is all about my love of hardcore, barely legal pornography.

by Slyde on May 8, 2008 3:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

if we did something more sophisticated

How would we do that? I hate to admit it but you guys are slowly converting me on some of these “new fangled” stats

Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds

by Caleb on May 8, 2008 5:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

The Dominican press

is pretty hyped on Volquez today.

A couple headlines:

Edinson Vólquez asombra a todos

Volquez astonishes everyone
>¡Vólquez estuvo fenomenal!, poncha 10 bateadores

Volquez was phenomenal, striking out 10 batters!

Both articles quoted him saying this:

En los dos últimos años no había lanzado como estoy lanzando ahora. Hay una razón detrás de cada lanzamiento que hago. Antes simplemente lanzaba.

The last two years I was not throwing like I am throwing now. There is a reason behind each pitch I throw. Before I was just throwing.

The pitcher/thrower distinction is a bit cliché but it might be appropriate here. Perhaps Soto has really helped him put it together mentally and he is changing speeds more and becoming much less predictable. Why isn’t Soto the pitching coach on this team?

As for the pitch count, I am okay with letting Volquez go around 120 every now and again, but yeah save it for a 1-0 game when the bullpen is toasted and no offday is in sight.

Tanzen!

by Verka Serduchka on May 8, 2008 9:36 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Wow,

that is one big lio de html

Tanzen!

by Verka Serduchka on May 8, 2008 9:38 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

disagree

that… looks… awesome!

Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on May 8, 2008 12:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I'm sorry

I think this is a non-issue.

No one would talk about Dusty and “blowing up young pitchers” if it wasn’t the freakin’ Flubs. “OOH, he ruint us! He destroyed the greatest pitchers of our generation!”

Bullcrap. Wood missed the entire ‘99 season to injury. His manager in ‘98? Jim Riggleman. Don Baylor was (mostly) the manager through ‘02. Baker didn’t show up until Wood had already pitched 691 innings.

Prior? His “perfect mechanics” are anything but. I saw a study (I can’t recall where) that pitchers with his “reverse W” motion (look at his arms in the picture above (why they don’t call it an “M” motion, I don’t know)) are much more prone to injury.

Further, if he so ruins young pitchers, why doesn’t anyone mention Victor Zambrano? Z was the same age as Prior, he pitched more innings than either Wood or Prior, and threw as many pitches. I’ll tell you why – they’re the freakin’ Flubs, and if it doesn’t fit their whiney story, they just ignore it.

It’s one game, after the bullpen pitched too many innings the past few days. Like I said, I’m not concerned.

Often wrong, never uncertain.

by sidnancy on May 8, 2008 9:36 AM EDT reply reply   2 recs

Nice!

Norris Hopper's #1 fan!!!

by Zach K on May 8, 2008 9:43 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

did you mean carlos?

In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.

by chandrathan on May 8, 2008 9:57 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs