We're 12-16. Is the glass two-fifths-full or three-fifths-empty?
The Reds are 12-16 (hey! that's not awful!) and only a game ahead of the last place Pirates (who swept the Reds earlier this month). The offense has not really shown any consistency and as a result they're getting much of the blame for the team's slow/poor start put on them.
But did you know that aside from Edinson Volquez, the Reds' starters have a combined ERA of 5.58? (Note that the 5.58 ERA includes Harang's 2.76 through 42 innings.)
And did you know that nine different times the Reds' starters have given up five or more earned runs in six or fewer innings?
April 4 : Fogg vs PHI 4ip 6er
April 7 : Arroyo vs PHI 5.2ip 5er
April 13 : Cueto vs PIT 6ip 5er
April 15 : Harang vs CHI 6ip 5er
April 16 : Fogg vs CHI 2ip 9er
April 21 : Belisle vs LAD 4ip 5er
April 23 : Arroyo vs HOU 3.2ip 8er
April 24 : Cueto vs HOU 7ip 5er (To his credit, Cueto pitched a nearly perfect sixth and seventh.)
April 29 : Cueto vs STL 1.2ip 6er
Ugh.
Nine times?!?! In only 28 games?
I wonder if that leads the league or perhaps even all of baseball...
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in my mind
The Reds won two out of three in Pittsburgh. So, they’re a .500 ballclub.
Please don’t bother me with reality!
by rojosoto on Apr 30, 2008 11:50 AM EDT 0 recs
i voted for belisle to be gone...
i wanna see homer bailey.
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on Apr 30, 2008 11:55 AM EDT 0 recs
off the team or out of the rotation?
Personally, I’d prefer Belisle in the pen and Fogg “gone” but they pitch with similar results. So, if only one has options, I’d send that one to AAA to take Homer’s starts, and let Homer make starts at the major league level.
by rojosoto on
Apr 30, 2008 11:58 AM EDT
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no not off the team...
i meant out of the rotation…
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on
Apr 30, 2008 12:08 PM EDT
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Wow
So far, 100% of the vote agrees with you.
It gets crazy on the road, and awful lonely. That's why I love pornography. This next song is all about my love of hardcore, barely legal pornography.
by Slyde on
Apr 30, 2008 11:59 AM EDT
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let's keep it that way!
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on
Apr 30, 2008 12:09 PM EDT
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It's actually 8 times
Cueto pitched 7 innings (according to your data) on April 24th.
Eight is still tied for the most, with Kansas City and Florida.
It gets crazy on the road, and awful lonely. That's why I love pornography. This next song is all about my love of hardcore, barely legal pornography.
by Slyde on Apr 30, 2008 11:58 AM EDT 0 recs
Yeah, I guess I was trying to have my stale crackers and choke them down too.
On April 24, Cueto did give up five runs in fewer than six innings. But he also stayed in the game and pitched two more scoreless innings. So there’s that.
Thanks for the list.
I don't know how to paint a banana gourd to look like a Power Ranger.
by Fat Vegas Alan on
Apr 30, 2008 12:43 PM EDT
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I know this is a small thing
but every time I check the line-ups and see Corey Patterson batting lead-off, I am disheartened about the team and their chances not just to win this year, but to put together a successful program. I do not dislike Corey Patterson. I love what Corey Patterson can do if he’s put in the right situations, but he’s not. And Dusty seems unwilling to change.
Perhaps I’m wrong in seeing the CP situation as a microcosm for what is philosophically wrong with the team, but there it is.
The situation in the top of the first last night was another touchstone moment for me.
Patterson singles and Piniero walks Keppinger on 5 pitches.
-With runners on 1st and 2nd, Ken Griffey works a 6 pitch at bat to a full count – one of those foul balls, btw, was about 15 feet from of a 3-run jack.
-With a full count and no one out, Baker calls a double steal OR hit and run.
-The pitch to Griffey is a pitch off the outside corner that’s probably ball 4.
-But either because it’s a hit and run OR because Griff knows that it’s the kind of pitch that Molina will be able to gun to 3rd base quickly, he waves at it for strike 3.
-Essentially, Baker has taken the bat out of the hand of the 3 hole hitter - a hitter who also happens to be one of the most successful of his generation.
-Baker has also given a free out to a pitcher who’s struggling early.
The base-running clusterfuck that ensued with BP’s grounder was frustrating, but, for me, it only compounded the problem of “aggressive” play that Baker’s hit’n’run/double steal call introduced. In the top of the FIRST FUCKING INNING.
Now, there are other problems that are more responsible for the day to day woes of the team (Arroyo’s “dead arm,” fielding errors, Dunn’s pitiful slugging % large among them), but I can abide mistakes and slumps from hitters, fielders and pitchers. What I find absolutely deflating is clear personnel mistakes and managing ourselves out of runs. That’s where my frustration lies.
In a bizarre way, I could have more easily accepted Griffey grounding into a double play in the first inning last night than the “successful” double steal that occurred – if only because it would have meant letting the big hitters hit with men on base. Nothing cute, nothing “aggressive,” just simple baseball.
Reading over this post, I’m tempted to delete it. I’m afraid its the kind of knee-jerk over-reaction, built on small and anecdotal evidence, that leads to poor discussion and claims to find demons in a grain of sand. But these things are why I’m a pessimist rather than an optimist.
Definitely an antisocial type. Woof, woof, woof! That's my other dog imitation.
by Man Mountain on Apr 30, 2008 12:47 PM EDT 0 recs
My knee-jerk over-reaction built on small and anecdotal evidence of reading your post is...
.... you are brilliant.
The season doesn't start until the Cincinnati Reds take the field! Reclaim The Opener!!
by TheC on
Apr 30, 2008 12:51 PM EDT
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hey
you made an argument. It may be knee-jerk, but at least you have reasoning behind it. And it’s a lot better reasoning than so-and-so should be traded/sent down because he’s in a slump.
What bugs me is the lack of creativity from Dusty to shake things up. His idea of trying something new is to swap Phillips and Griffey in the lineup for one day. His inability to see past his paradigm of CF bats first, middle infielder 2nd, split up lefties, big burly guy hits 5th, etc is disconcerting. The fact that EdE has batted higher than 6th just twice this year and Votto has never batted higher than 6th even while the two guys were the only real productive players on the team is ridiculous. To see Patterson get 5 at bats a game while Votto barely gets 4 frustrates me to no end. Hell, the top 3 OBP guys on the team have batted 5, 6, and 8 for the majority of the season. If you want to shake things up, try to give more at bats to guys who aren’t making outs. Who knows, maybe you’ll see the offense start to get some more consistent life to it?
It gets crazy on the road, and awful lonely. That's why I love pornography. This next song is all about my love of hardcore, barely legal pornography.
by Slyde on
Apr 30, 2008 1:23 PM EDT
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Re: Votto and Encarnacion
To you at all buy the theory that he doesn’t want to ruin a good thing by putting more pressure on these young hitters by moving them up in the order?
The season doesn't start until the Cincinnati Reds take the field! Reclaim The Opener!!
by TheC on
Apr 30, 2008 1:43 PM EDT
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DO you... obviously
The season doesn't start until the Cincinnati Reds take the field! Reclaim The Opener!!
by TheC on
Apr 30, 2008 1:43 PM EDT
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Nah
Especially if the older more experienced guys aren’t getting it done.
It gets crazy on the road, and awful lonely. That's why I love pornography. This next song is all about my love of hardcore, barely legal pornography.
by Slyde on
Apr 30, 2008 1:49 PM EDT
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If Dusty managed the Big Red Machine,
I wonder if his lineup would look something like this:
CF Geronimo
2B Morgan
RF Griffey
1B Perez
LF Foster
3B Rose
SS Concepcion
C Bench
Good golly. I was just messing around, but even at that they’d still win 100 games.
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on
Apr 30, 2008 8:49 PM EDT
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Yeah
as they say, ultimately the order doesn’t matter as much as who is playing.
My problem isn’t the order by itself as much as the fact that Dusty pretends that he’s making adjustments when all he’s really doing is moving two players by one spot. And while all of that is happening, the two hottest hitters keep missing out on possible at bats. I don’t think he needs to permanently shift EdE and Votto up to the top of the order, but if he did it for a few days until some of the other bats came around it would make more sense than flipping BP and Griffey and hoping it changes everything.
It gets crazy on the road, and awful lonely. That's why I love pornography. This next song is all about my love of hardcore, barely legal pornography.
by Slyde on
Apr 30, 2008 9:07 PM EDT
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We have some sort of E.T. mindmeld going on
Goddammit Loggins! The smooth grooves of this song alone will make it to at least number two!
by Red Menace on
Apr 30, 2008 2:51 PM EDT
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Co-Pat
and to a lesser extent Harriston, are the new Juan Castro’s of this team. where Castro was the unproductive bosom chum of Krivsky, now the new guard has taken over with fresh bosom chums in tow. Patterson will be on the team, getting regular at-bats, all year long. not because he’s productive, but because Dusty says so. his running ability and agressiveness are what Dusty crave, and no one else on this team exhibits those traits. Bruce will be brought up around the all-star break once Jr and/or Dunn is dealt and Patterson will continue to suck. he may not lead off all year long, but he will be our CF. i think Freel has shown, in his limited action, that he has mostly recovered from his myriad injuries and can still probably be a decent ball player. better than Patterson anyway. but Dusty has an agenda and the authority to implement it. so yes, i agree this is the philosophy of Dusty Baker, and i dont like it. it may feel like a knee-jerk reaction because you are reacting to a particular instance that rattled you. but this is just an example of the overall Baker philosophy. we knew this when he was signed. we just didnt know how it would manifest itself.
Abraham Lincoln said that if you're a racist, I will invade you with the north.
by Charlie Scrabbles on
Apr 30, 2008 6:13 PM EDT
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That's out of line.
Patterson is much, much more valuable than Castro. Not only is he not “not productive”, but he’s the best option right now for CF.
He’s going to be less than OK with the bat, but a big plus in the OF and on the bases. Castro’s career OPS+ (57) is only slightly better than Patterson’s worst year (54); Castro’s best year (79, in 348 PA) is worse than any of Patterson’s 5 other seasons with that many PAs (though he also had a 78). Patterson has never stolen fewer than 15 bases in a season, and never at a lower rate than 75% (he’s at 80% for his career); Castro is 5/13 for his career.
Freel would make a better leadoff hitter (hell, I would). But Patterson’s defense more than makes up for the offensive difference between those two.
Patterson may be Dusty’s “boy”; he certainly isn’t a good leadoff hitter. But he’s absolutely better than Castro (who someone famously called “the worst hitter in MLB history), and better overall than any other CF on the team.
Often wrong, never uncertain.
by sidnancy on
Apr 30, 2008 8:21 PM EDT
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i may not have been clear
my analogy of Patterson/Castro was not about their numbers, but rather that Patterson will be with this team, getting regular at bats, making more than he is worth, long after he ceases being valuable to the team simply because he is well liked by the Man in Charge. i know Patterson’s numbers arent near as embarrassing as Castro’s, but i still think the analogy is valid. and FWIW, I think we can both agree that Bruce should be this team’s everyday CF,not CoPat.
Abraham Lincoln said that if you're a racist, I will invade you with the north.
by Charlie Scrabbles on
Apr 30, 2008 9:54 PM EDT
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Uh, no.
I think we can both agree that Bruce should be this team’s everyday CF,not CoPat.
I’ve posted time and again that I’m not convinced Bruce should be playing CF for the Reds – his plate discipline is still atrocious (5/24 bb/k, which makes me think pitchers in the bigs might have a field day against him), and what he’d add over Patterson in offense would be completely negated on defense.
I wouldn’t be shocked to see Patterson with the team next year, nor at this point do I think it would be the end of the world. One or both of Dunn/Jr won’t be around next year, opening up a corner spot for Bruce, leaving Patterson to fight with Freel, Hopper, Dickerson, and Stubbs. Freel has proven he can’t play everyday, and isn’t that much better than Patterson offensively (and can’t touch him in the field); Hopper has shown he isn’t any great shakes offensively (and can’t touch Patterson in the field). Then you have the question of whether Dickerson is an improvement, or if Stubbs can hit at all.
I’ve never been a Patterson fan (probably because he started with the Flubs), but I think many on this board don’t realize what he is. This year, he’s 15th in OPS out of 32 CFs with more than 75 PAs, while adding excellent defense and baserunning. Last year, he wasn’t great, but also wasn’t any worse than the starting CFs for Boston or the Yankees, nor much worse than Jim Edmonds, Vernon Wells, or Andruw Jones. Wells and Jones are better defenders, but not the others, and none of them are as good on the basepaths. Add it all up, and he’s an average CF.
And if you can trot out a team with average or better players at every position, you’ll be a pretty good team.
Often wrong, never uncertain.
by sidnancy on
May 1, 2008 9:46 AM EDT
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He's also been extremely "unlucky" with Balls in Play (.187)
Looking at Patterson’s career splits by position in the batting order, it seems that he’s more effective hitting behind the heart of the line-up. In his career, he’s gotten over 500 PAs at 4 positions in the line-up: 1st, 2nd, 6th, and 7th. His numbers:
Batting 1st: .251/.296/.424
Batting 2nd: .254/.299/.375
Batting 6th: .272/.298/.428
Batting 7th: .281/.330/.485
Patterson is obviously an elite athlete, even among other professionals. Could it be that as an elite athlete he’s better able to change his approach at the plate than other players? Perhaps being given the role the “table-setter” alters his approach (i.e., look to make contact), but ultimately doesn’t suit his capabilities? This might be where using Fan Graphs’ plate discipline stats could eventually give us a clearer picture of whether or not a given hitter changes his approach depending on where he appears in the line-up.
However, Patterson’s line at the 6th spot isn’t really better than his line at lead off. It’s his line at 7th which really jumps out at you as a marked improvement. It’s hard to believe that his approach would be necessarily different from the 6th spot to the 7th. It probably has more to do with the line-up and team surrounding him when he got those at bats.
So, in what seasons did he get the bulk of those plate appearances at 7th? In 2004 with the Cubs and in 2006 with the Orioles.
The 2004 Cubs finished 16 games over .500, but were 3rd in the division behind that insane Cardinals team and the Astros. This is the season that Patterson’s obvious deficiencies as a lead-off hitter forced Baker to push him back in the order.
In 133 PAs at the 7th spot, he posted an excellent: .319/.389/.509
The 2006 Orioles finished 22 games below .500 in the only season that Sam Perlozzo got to himself. Perlozzo refused to bat Patterson anywhere north of 6th in the line-up and Patterson had his second best all around offensive year in which he played more than 100 games.
In 244 PAs at 7th, he posted: .280/.324/.484.
In 151 PAs 6th, he posted: .319/.356/.468
This season Patterson has actually been quite successful as the very first hitter of the game: .333/.400/.500. But he’s been pretty shitty afterwards. Even when he leads off a later inning: .182/.270/.364.
So, can we glean anything important from this information? If anything it just adds more weight to the argument that almost everyone on this site has been making since game 1: If he’s going to play, drop him down in the line-up.
Based on his career numbers, Patterson should probably be hitting 6th or later.
Based on about 100 PAs this season, he should only bat in the first inning.
Definitely an antisocial type. Woof, woof, woof! That's my other dog imitation.
by Man Mountain on
May 1, 2008 12:25 PM EDT
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So the key the Reds offense
is to bat Corey Patterson 6th or lower and then make sure they get enough hits to get him an at bat in the first inning. If they do that, they’ll be in much better shape.
Somebody fax this to Dusty.
It gets crazy on the road, and awful lonely. That's why I love pornography. This next song is all about my love of hardcore, barely legal pornography.
by Slyde on
May 1, 2008 12:52 PM EDT
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why stick with an average CF?
i concede that Patterson is certainly better than terrible, perhaps even average. but my whole point here is that bringing in Patterson in the first place was just a stupid move. perhaps Bruce wasnt ready after ST, but still we had Fropper who has proven time and again to be able to play average baseball. and as Dusty has pointed out many times, Freel performs better against righties, so Patterson’s lefty bat is not the reason. Patterson is obviously Dusty’s dude and was brought in on his specific request, even if it was redundant. regardless of Patterson’s performance, he is the new Juan Castro because he would not be on this team if not for his relationship with the Boss. and even if we cant agree about Bruce, we can agree that that is a terribly inefficient way to run a baseball team.
Abraham Lincoln said that if you're a racist, I will invade you with the north.
by Charlie Scrabbles on
May 1, 2008 7:37 PM EDT
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Except that he doesn't
Freel’s career OPS vs. RHP is .739; Patterson’s is .734, though he’s played in less hitter-friendly parks than Freel. Plus, neither Hopper nor Freel play defense as well as Patterson; with Dunn and Jr. out there, having as good of a CF as possible is doubly important.
And while he’s “Dusty’s dude”, if he helps the team, so what?
Often wrong, never uncertain.
by sidnancy on
May 2, 2008 8:30 AM EDT
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But given Dusty's insistence on CF = leadoff hitter,
I’d rather have the higher OBP guy. Freel has a .362 OBP vs. RHPs; Patterson is at .306.
Totally agree about the importance of CF defense on this team, but honest question – is Patterson really that much better than Fropper? I know that Dial has posted some numbers about Patterson’s impressive fielding in Chicago, but I don’t know how that compares to the other two. Patterson has an edge in RZR, but it’s hard to put that into context.
by ken on
May 2, 2008 9:25 AM EDT
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You've hit the nail on the head MM
The problem is more the manager than the players, although I’m not a Fropper man, I would still like to see Farney leaad off. But mostly Dusty is living in the past
"I'm not a gearhead at all" Danica
by Madville on
Apr 30, 2008 9:30 PM EDT
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This is a practice year
We have two rookie starters and an unresolved 5th spot in the rotation (and some may argue an unresolved 2nd spot too). I think the Reds need to bring up Bailey in another month or so and let our 3 rookies just get seasoned. Interestingly and fortunately, the one who is having the most success so far is the one who has the most experience. I think that’s a really good sign. So…. this year is practice. Don’t expect a pennant. But 2009 could be interesting. That has been my take since Spring Training and I’ve seen nothing this year to change my mind.
The season doesn't start until the Cincinnati Reds take the field! Reclaim The Opener!!
by TheC on Apr 30, 2008 12:49 PM EDT 0 recs
I agree
That next year we can be very good, however if we do things the right way this year could be very successful. DBakes needs to start making better choices and needs to shake up the lineup. Give me Keppinger, Votto, Edwin, Griffey, Phillips, Dunn, Freel, and Bako just once. Or move Dunn up in the order. Maybe he will see better pitches batting front of Griffey. But the simple fact is Edwin is currently our overall best hitter and there is no end to that insight so do not bat him 6th! Votto is proving himself to be very good so lets move him up in the order.
Jockitch also needs to hope that Arroyo can string together some good starts and try to deal him off. If he begins to show some flashes of being the pitcher he was 2 years ago then a contender will jump on him because he is reasonably signed and could bring back more than just minor league depth. Lets send him away and one of Griffey/Dunn for a future CF/SS/or pitching prosepect. Say Griffey and Arroyo to ATL for the top CF prospect that just got suspended and some others. Or add alex gonzalez for Yunel Escobar and Jair Jujjens (i know theyd never give him up or these other guys up with the way they are going, but I’m just spitballing.)
I just want to see something happen that makes this team look like they are not stagnating. Right now we can be in the middle of the pack in the ceentral for years to come but with a few ballsy moves, but right moves not made in haste, we could be at the top of this division with a younger and better pitching club than anyone in the division.
Hatteberg for Jeremy Reed? Or someone along those lines. I think that would be a reasonable move.
or Griffey/Arroyo/Hatteberg for Clement or WBelantien and Reed.
My point is moves can be made, don’t rush them but hopefully they are working on some.
by kennythered on
Apr 30, 2008 1:54 PM EDT
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I definitely agree with this sentiment.
And part of the problem almost seems to be a feeling of “if we win now, it won’t look like the last half decade has just been shitty and going nowhere. —those were the rebuilding years.”
Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.
by andromache on
Apr 30, 2008 4:13 PM EDT
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Funny, I was thinking of Reed the other night but I couldn't remember his name.
And now that you’ve given me his name, I can’t find him on any 2008 roster.
He must be injured and rehabbing somewhere?
I don't know how to paint a banana gourd to look like a Power Ranger.
by Fat Vegas Alan on
Apr 30, 2008 8:31 PM EDT
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I'm wondering if they'll do something like
Hatteberg for Greg Norton, who was DFAd today. I’m not advocating it, necessarily, just wondering. Norton is a switch-hitter and he’s batting better than .400. His BA tends to fluctuate wildly year to year, but he has some pop, has had decent OBP and can play 1B, RF or even 3B in a pinch.
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on
Apr 30, 2008 8:52 PM EDT
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Problem is
He’s a switch-hitter who has a career .647 OPS as a right-handed hitter. I think I’d rather have either Hatteberg.
It gets crazy on the road, and awful lonely. That's why I love pornography. This next song is all about my love of hardcore, barely legal pornography.
by Slyde on
Apr 30, 2008 9:01 PM EDT
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Yeah
I’m not a huge Norton fan. However we do need something better coming off the bench because Hatte is just not suited for the spot. If we are giving the job to Votto at first, through slumps or anything else, its time to find someone better suited as a bench player.
mlbtraderumors.com reported a possible padres fire sale. I’d be more than happy to add Tony Clark and all of his contract for a ptbnl.
by kennythered on
May 1, 2008 12:49 PM EDT
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Jordan Schafer
Lets get him in a deal with the Braves. He’s a CF that can rake. (He won’t be a lead off hitter so I’m sure Dusty won’t like that)
by kennythered on
May 1, 2008 2:35 PM EDT
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Why would the Braves deal him?
He just got busted for roids, so his value is rock bottom. Trading him now is silly.
by Geki on
May 1, 2008 8:47 PM EDT
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I heard...
...the Reds told the Louisville Bats to stretch out all their relief pitchers. Dunno if they’re looking for a starter or a long man for the pen. Maybe they’re just preparing for a season where they’re expecting the starting rotation to have trouble going deep.
Dunno if I want to see Bailey called up. Watching the Yankees’ young guns struggle, I think I’m being won over to the idea of “veteran presence.” At least some. I think three rookies might be too much. The other night, Phil Hughes was nearly in tears after a terrible outing (six earned runs, including two homers, in 3.2 innings). Just watching him, I couldn’t imagine sending him out there again. It would be downright cruel. But there was some worry that sending him back to AAA might crush his confidence even more. So the Yankees came up with solution: putting him on the DL for an injury many believe is non-existent.
I don’t think Hughes is particularly fragile, emotionally. He’s struck me as being a very mature and down-to-earth young man. (Chad Moeller’s temporary replacement was awful, and it wasn’t Hughes’ fault, since other pitchers had trouble with him, too, but Hughes took responsibility for the numerous crossups.) But he’s only 21, and he’s under a lot of pressure, being “Phil Phranchise” and the team struggling so much. Ian Kennedy has struggled as well, but he’s a couple of years older, with college experience, and there are fewer expectations for him.
I dunno, I guess I’d think twice about bringing up a young pitcher with the idea that he’ll turn around the team.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on May 1, 2008 7:37 AM EDT 0 recs
How about
How about Bailey in the ‘Pen?
He would get to work almost everyday, because Belisle and Arroyo haven’t been great and Ceuto and Volquez don’t go deep, and I feel it would be positive for his confidence. I don’t think he would have to change his stuff or the way he pitches much to be successful ad it would stress him getting the ball over the plate. My worry about it would be how Dusty uses him. I wouldn’t want him to be a 8th inning set up man, but I’d want him used the way Liriano and Santana were at the starts of their careers. I feel itd also strengthen the pen currently and also give us an excuse to say bye to Fogg-Dogg.
by kennythered on
May 1, 2008 12:53 PM EDT
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It's an interesting idea
The Yankees did that with Joba Chamberlain, and it’s been very successful. Pitching only an inning or so added a few more mph to his fastball, and made it much more effective.
But I wonder if it’s what Bailey needs. They want him to work on his secondary pitches. He wouldn’t have to do that as a relief pitcher.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on
May 1, 2008 5:19 PM EDT
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Given that the pen has been pretty successful so far
Todd Coffey notwithstanding, I don’t think that’s likely. With Burton, Cordero, Bray all looking like they’re locks to be around for a while and Roenicke and some others nearing the majors as well, I don’t think it’s time to put Homer in the pen. Give him another shot to succeed as a starter, at least.
by Geki on
May 1, 2008 8:48 PM EDT
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Am I correct in assuming that there is no longer any contract/clock benefit to keeping HB in the minors?
Meaning.. if he continues to pitch well and Belisle does not, we could expect to see HB back in CIncinnati soomer rather than later?
I don't know how to paint a banana gourd to look like a Power Ranger.
by Fat Vegas Alan on
May 1, 2008 9:18 PM EDT
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No sure
I have no idea about the clock but my feeling is if he needed his confidence back, he got it back in AAA. Lets allow him to be a reliever. I understand the working on his secondary stuff argument, and if thats what he is doing that is fine, but that can also be refined up here with seemingly better coaching right, in bullpen session? Also there is always room in the ‘pen for someone with Bailey’s stuff. I like all the guys you mentioned A LOT but none of them are on the same level as Homer.
I am just not for stagnating prospects. If its for contract purposes okay, or even development process keep him down, but I am not sure Bailey is getting anything at all from being down there.
by kennythered on
May 1, 2008 9:52 PM EDT
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If they're playing the service clock game,
they should keep Homer down another month. He has 41 days of service time listed in Cot’s. If he came up now and stayed on the roster through the end of the year he’d have slightly more than a year of service time. But if he joined the Reds in early June, I think his service time at the end of ‘08 would be less than a year. I have no problem with doing that, given that he could benefit from staying in Louisville and that Belisle should be given a real shot at the rotation.
by ken on
May 2, 2008 9:12 AM EDT
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No the reds are fine
They will be a contender next year if our young players get some playing time this year.
Norris Hopper's #1 fan!!!
by Zach K on May 1, 2008 9:02 AM EDT 0 recs
To answer the original question
I a 3/5 empty kind of cat, in that Dusty’s meddling appears to be such a hindrance for this season. We all know that the roster is screwy and the young starters are going to have their ups and downs. As many of us have expressed all along, Bob is not being realistic with his thinking that this team can win consistently this season. I think they’ll look good in stretches and god-awful in others, ultimately ending up just shy of .500 for the season. The longview is good, but realism aint gonna stop Jocko from wheeling and dealing to placate the boss. Let’s just hope that the young talent isn’t tossed away for empty veteran hope.
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy. -Tom Waits and others
by Pops Daniels on May 1, 2008 1:03 PM EDT 0 recs
My take
The Good:
I think past this year we’re set at 1B, 3B, RF, closer, and at least 3 rotation spots. I’m not concerned about the bullpen (Wayne Krivsky? I’d like you to meet Kent Merker and Mike Lincoln. You may remember them – you didn’t have to trade away any starting position players to get either one.)
The Bad:
I think we have major problems at C. The rest of the OF is potentially a mess.
I don’t know:
Will BP’s attitude become a problem? How long can he stay successful striking out 3X as often as he walks? If the worst happens, (a) can he be traded with that contract, and (b) can Keppinger take over at 2B?
What happens if neither Dunn nor Jr are back next year?
It appears Keppinger should play everyday; what happens when AGon comes back?
In the end, I’m optimistic. If Dunn and Jr. are both gone, that leaves a ton of money to acquire a free agent or two. If AGon can play, I think BP gets traded and Keppinger gets shifted to 2B; if not, I think we’re OK as we stand now. I think Arroyo recovers to be what he’s always been, and at least 2 of the youngsters become solid ML pitchers, leaving only the 5th spot in the rotation open – and like the non-closing bullpen, those guys are usually freely available. I think what we’re seeing from EdE is his break-out; I think Votto’s is still coming. Unfortunately, I don’t think any of the 3 catchers should be on the team next year – unfortunate because there’s no one in the minors.
All of that is next year, though. I also think the Reds are Arroyo pitching the way he always has, plus Dunn keeping it together, away from making a run this year. I’m not convinced they’d get far in the playoffs, but I think they can at least get there (knowing full well that they’d need to go 75-58 to get to 87 wins, or 78-55 (.586) to get to 90).
Often wrong, never uncertain.
by sidnancy on May 1, 2008 2:08 PM EDT 0 recs
If Dunn and Griffey are gone, and Gonzalez can play
I wouldn’t be surprised to see this:
C ?
1B EdE
2B BP
3B Keppinger
SS Gonzalez
LF Votto
CF ?
RF Bruce
But like you said, that’s next year. We’ve still got 5 months to go. Unfortunately, I still don’t feel like this team is better than .500 at the end of the year.
It gets crazy on the road, and awful lonely. That's why I love pornography. This next song is all about my love of hardcore, barely legal pornography.
by Slyde on
May 1, 2008 2:30 PM EDT
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I'd imagine
A move of Edwin to LF if both Griffey and Dunn are gone. That would open 3B up for Kepp, though I’d prefer on with more power.
Part of me wonders what would be move valuable, letting them walk and getting good compensation picks or trading them?
I agree with your assessment of our starting rotation in that only Harang, plus two more spots are set. I would like to see Griffey or Dunn packaged with Arroyo to a contender. That would get us a decent haul of prospects if Arroyo straightens out.
My feeling on Phillips is most of his attitude problems are towards the media, which tend to be over emphasized and with the “veteran leadership” of the clubhouse in Griffey and Dunn. Honestly, if we let those two go, I’d would be happy to slap the C-tag on Phillips and allow him to be our leader. The guy plays hard, he has fun, and the only reason he hasn’t been our leader is because Griffey and Dunn have shot him down a few times.
We needs some help at Catch
Votto at 1st
Phillips at 2nd
AGon + whatever we can get in the trades of Dunn/Griffey at SS
Kepp + whatever we can get in trades at 3B
Edwin in LF
?? in CF
Bruce in RF
Harang/Cueto/Volquez/Arroyo/Bailey in our rotation + one free agent signing, because Bob likes to spend money, in our rotation.
I think that could contend with this type of a lineup depending on what we get in trades. Its make or break on Griffey and Dunn. If we get good value it can put us over the top. If we get no value we have a long road ahead.
by kennythered on
May 1, 2008 2:32 PM EDT
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Clarification
I don’t think Dunn is gone. It would make the Hamilton deal look very bad once Volquez come back to earth (which I hope he is already on earth and we are seeing the real deal) and Big Bob loves Dunn so he will give the guy a fat pay check.
That last post of mine really makes me worry about the paper I just turned in in my American Lit. class. Sorry for the grammar and shit.
by kennythered on
May 1, 2008 2:39 PM EDT
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per wayne krivsky the reds and dunn have had zero conversation about an extension...
he’s as good as gone
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on
May 1, 2008 2:50 PM EDT
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Well
I am not sure if that is too meaningful. Lookign at Wayne’s situation. Bob probably never told WK what to do about since he was just chomping at the bit to cut him loose. I could see the order to signing him going down soon to Jock, once Dunn starts to hit a little.
by kennythered on
May 1, 2008 2:52 PM EDT
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That would be something
It would make the Hamilton deal look very bad once Volquez come back to earth (which I hope he is already on earth and we are seeing the real deal)
I guarantee Volquez’s ERA will be something north of 1.3 by the end of the season. Guar-on-tee.
Often wrong, never uncertain.
by sidnancy on
May 1, 2008 5:17 PM EDT
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hahaha I agree
But one can wish. We don’t always have to be realists. Let me romanticize about EV and his fine, fine potential.
by kennythered on
May 1, 2008 9:53 PM EDT
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the only reason he hasn’t been our leader is because Griffey and Dunn have shot him down a few times.
I’ve never heard this before. Do you have a source or a story or an anecdote? I’ve always been under the impression that BP wants to be the leader, but people on the team aren’t particularly interested in following him. This may be Griffey and Dunn’s doing, but I’ve never heard of any specifics, just anecdotal evidence and heard it from a friend who heard it from a source kind of stuff.
It gets crazy on the road, and awful lonely. That's why I love pornography. This next song is all about my love of hardcore, barely legal pornography.
by Slyde on
May 1, 2008 2:42 PM EDT
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I will look for the article
I do remember hearing something about a Phillips and Griffey issue however. Not sure if it was on the radio or in the paper. I don’t think there is dislike in the relationship but I remember Griffey telling Phillips through a reporter that some people need to know their place in the clubhouse after Phillips made a remark about everyone not putting their best effort forth all the time. He also said the focus in the club was not on baseball but it was more on other things. There was also a seperate time before this that Phillips said its tough to win when not many of them care about the game until its game time.
by kennythered on
May 1, 2008 2:50 PM EDT
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C. Trent...
...had the most dirt on that. Unfortunately, his articles and large portions of his blog are gone now, with the late lamented Cincy Post.
The incident you are describing sounds like the same one where BP and Hamilton got into a bit of a feud. (BP started it, by complaining about the attention Hamilton, Griffey, and Bailey got.)
I don’t think BP is a clubhouse leader, and I don’t think he ever will be, unless he grows up. (It could happen. Griffey was reportedly something of a pain himself, when he was young.) Trent hinted that no one on the team likes him, and pointed to an incident where BP made the last out in an inning, and no one brought him his hat and glove. He had to go into the dugout and get them himself. That is a big-time snub in baseball-land.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on
May 1, 2008 5:13 PM EDT
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I don't understand
I would like to see Griffey or Dunn packaged with Arroyo to a contender. That would get us a decent haul of prospects if Arroyo straightens out.
If Arroyo “straightens out”, he’s well worth the money he’s being paid, and an asset to the team. If he doesn’t, the contract is an albatross and noone will give you a bucket of warm spit for him.
I’d would be happy to slap the C-tag on Phillips and allow him to be our leader.
Everyone knows my stance. His opinion of himself was hugely exaggerated (and not backed up by performance) in Cleveland, which is why they gave him away; his quotes about Hamilton, and the recent spat with the reporters, shows me he hasn’t changed an is the last guy I’d want to be team captain.
And he isn’t all that, either. With all of the talk about Patterson, remember that BP is only a year younger, has an OBP only 10 points higher in his career and a SLG also only 10 points higher, giving him a career OPS+ advantage of…4 points.
Its make or break on Griffey and Dunn. If we get good value it can put us over the top.
No one in their right mind is going to give much for Jr – he’s hideously expensive (remember, he has a $4M buyout for next year), has full no-trade rights, and is a shell of his former self. Dunn might bring good prospects, but only if the team is assured of getting to sign him long-term; even then, they’ll probably be prospects, not MLB-ready.
Often wrong, never uncertain.
by sidnancy on
May 1, 2008 5:13 PM EDT
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