Reds lose again wrap/open thread
by boobs on Apr 18, 2008 10:32 PM EDT
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PrintCan't say I'm surprised we didn't win this one, but the final score was a lot closer than what the game seemed. There's really not much offense outside our 3-7 hitters, and when half your hitters usually can't hit, you're not going to score a lot of runs. We could use a promotion of Jay Bruce and a catcher with a bat, and the latter could maybe be had with a trade of Bronson Arroyo. Just a thought. It might also clear up our rotation's log jam.
Although his stock might be a little low to sell at this point.
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Drunken ramblings: Can't name him, but
I think what we really need is a lead off hitter. And by “lead off hitter” I mean someone who can take a few pitches and get his ass on base.
Seriously, this is common sense to everyone here, but I don’t think it’s apparent to those who have any control over the team. Griffey and Dunn can walk and single all they want, but if the guy hitting #1 doesn’t make an out, it puts the offense in such a better position. Go ahead, MArty, and blame the middle of the order for the failure to sacrifice. But it would help if someone were actually on third base with less than two outs when the middle of the order is at the plate.
Maybe Kenny Lofton is the answer. Has he signed anywhere yet?
I think Lofton is still a free agent
But another lefty? We need some right-handed power, not another lefty.
The Bats game
The Bats radio guys expressed astonishment that no move was made today. They were expecting some big changes to be announced. They still think they’ll be announced soon.
Hairston did not play tonight, if that means anything.
Can't disagree at all with you
This team appears to be rudderless. There is no one leading the charge. I’m no Dusty fan but he can’t go out and pitch, field and hit. This roster is so, so, so, not good…way too many marginal guys flopping around in the bottom of a pretty leaky boat. Why is Casto even on the roster? He does nothing. Corey Patterson is everything I thought he’d be and Bako is just another place holder. I’m not sure what we’ll get with David Lee Ross when he comes back though:
Hatteberg is struggling
Corey is struggling – Back to earth
Bako is Bako – Back to earth
Casto is an embarrassment – needs to retire
Bronson is very worrisome
Coffee is consisitently inconsistent.
Edwin seems to lack fire…
Dunn is taking a long time to get going.
Gonzo is a question mark…will HE hit
So we’ve got Votto, BP, Kepp and Jr. with a little help from Fropper.
Goodby Fogg
Goodby Todd
Goodby Bako
Hello Beillze
Hello Jay
Hello David Lee
The sooner the better.
4-17-2008 The Father of the chaos Theory Dies
Oh and I forgot - We need a RH bat with some punch anf it ain't Jerry Jr.
4-17-2008 The Father of the chaos Theory Dies
I dunno Bubba - MP is not what he used to be and is full of VPness
I don’t know the answer…only the need.
4-17-2008 The Father of the chaos Theory Dies
so what happened with him anyway?
"Never perfect but perfectly forgiven." -Petra
by shortstopv2 on Apr 18, 2008 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Craig Wilson
had shoulder surgery last June. Apparently, when he reported for spring training with the Reds this year, Dr. Kremchek didn’t think he was healthy enough to play. So the Reds released him on the first day of spring training.
Wilson says it was just his opinion, and he was wrong. He signed with the Pirates last week, and passed his physical there. (The fact that the Pirates team doctor is the guy who did his shoulder surgery might have something to do with it.) He’s playing for the Pirates Triple-A club right now. Still trying to shake off the rust (since he missed all of spring training), but he hit a 3-run homer tonight.
thanks for the update
"Never perfect but perfectly forgiven." -Petra
by shortstopv2 on Apr 19, 2008 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Arroyo
I’m starting to think this guy is going to be an Eric Milton like force on this team for the next 3 years. He couldn’t break a window with his fastball at this point. I think he might have something wrong with his arm.
horrible comparison
he is a league average innings eater at worse. 2/3 of the games he gets quality starts, 1/3…not so much.
i was surprised he didnt do well this evening. night game, home game, warm weather. but…shat happens.
I was thinking the same thing.
and it seemed to me that he was throwing a lot of first pitch fastballs tonight instead of first-pitch breaking balls. And it wasn’t working. Just an observation.
there's nothing league average about the way he's throwing right now
If his fastball is 84-88 mph, that’s not going to get him league average results and he won’t last long enough to rack up innings.
i think bronson will come around
seems hes just getting bad breaks
"Never perfect but perfectly forgiven." -Petra
by shortstopv2 on Apr 18, 2008 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I hope you're right.
I really expected him to perform better than this. Still early, but I’m really concerned about his velocity.
i wouldnt be so much concerned about his velocity
as concerned about his location. Greg maddux is a testimony to that.
"Never perfect but perfectly forgiven." -Petra
by shortstopv2 on Apr 18, 2008 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Arroyo
Bronson couldn’t get the ball over the plate early, and that put a lot of pressure on him to make perfect pitches. I really think he went away from his usual game plan of throwing breaking balls for strike one and using the fastball as a show-me pitch off the plate. Maybe it’s throwing to Bako that has him lost.
you know what i never even thought of that
arroyo really excels with ross, very good point brian
"Never perfect but perfectly forgiven." -Petra
by shortstopv2 on Apr 18, 2008 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I wonder...
who we might be able to get for say EdE and Bronson… we could through Coffee in on the deal for the right RH hitting 3b or C. Could be a young strong prospect. But again I don’t know who is really availabe.
Bronson’s value may seem low but there are a lot of teams hoping/looking for someone they think that they can turn around…sounds like ol’ sweaterpants BS.
4-17-2008 The Father of the chaos Theory Dies
we cant afford to get rid of edwin
regardless of what radioheads think
Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah
OWWW - I am no radio-head.
I know it is early in the year for EdE. However if Gonzo comes back and hit 15-17 hrs. and plays decent SS then why not Kepp at 3rd. EdE’s value is his POTENTIAL. We could really use a decent hitting catcher.
4-17-2008 The Father of the chaos Theory Dies
radio head
Yeah, that was a bit out of line. But I’m calling you radiohead from now on . . . if I remember this tomorrow, that is.
that wasnt a crack at you
but consider this: Edwin is a career 101 OPS+ hitter, and a lot of us assume that will only improve (maybe a lot). Gonzalez had a career year last year of 99 and has a career mark of 80. On top of that, Edwin is five years younger and still a couple years away from his prime, whereas gonzalez is way past his. When Sea Bass comes back, he needs to be on the bench.
Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah
id have to disagree with this one
gonzo’s defense is tons better than eddie e’s and so is keppingers, plus if gonzo puts up what he did last year ill be pleased. Eddie on the bench instead of castro, with eddie playing maybe some first and 3rd every couple of days sounds good to me
"Never perfect but perfectly forgiven." -Petra
by shortstopv2 on Apr 18, 2008 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions
im sorry you enjoy being wrong
alex’s defense has gone downhill significantly, and his career year last year did not compare to edwin’s seasons that didnt meet expectations. And there’s a lot to be said about Edwin being only 25, which everyone JUST LOVES TO FORGET.
Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah
i dunno
16 HR 75 rbi third sackers with 100 OPS+, and shaky D, kinda grow on trees.
saving grace is 25 years old…
grows on trees?
in our organization? Who can replace that right now, assuming that he doesnt even improve?
Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah
devil's advocate
freel is 96, 93, 93 three of last four years.
keppinger is 123 last year and 125 ytd
we wouldnt move stanton for helms, and helms was 149 two years ago.
im not anti-EE, but im not putting the eggs in his basket.
here is a guy who took a lot of heat for the Reds once upon a time. check his numbers.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/driesda01.shtml
Like I said, Edwin shouldn't be bearing the weight of the organization
But he if he hits, he’s the key to the organization.
helms' career ops+ is 95
he’s had one season of more than 280 at-bats. He’s 32. I would have liked to have had him on the bench, but he’s nowhere near as valuable as Edwin.
Freel did put up 96-96-93 from 04-06 (when he was much older than edwin) but he’s a shell of himself since the concussions. He now struggles for 60. And Keppinger wouldnt be a bad idea, but you cant replace edwin with keppinger because he’s a starter. that leaves guys who are past their prime (and never as good) like freel and gonzalez, guys off the free-agent scrap heap who aren’t as good now and were never as good as edwin (helms) and guys who are a couple years away from tasting their cups of coffee (Francisco, Waring, Frazier).
I’m not putting all our hopes on Edwin’s shoulders, but we need his bat in addition to the other capable hitters we have. 16 homers and 76 RBIs in 500 at bats in a 24-year-old season does not grow on trees.
Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah
But trading those guys would still leave up with the crap that is the rest of the team.
EdE will (is) improve(ing). He isn’t killig the team, but his production is the key to the team.
The rest of the team ain't so bad
Kepp, BP, Jr, Donkey, VOTTO
Bench guys like NoHo, Farney and Valentine.
Maybe its a little unrealistic but I think that J. Bruce will be an impact player sooner than later. Dump Coffee and Fogg. Weathers will proabably come around and that other old guy…Murker he’s okay
Bring up Bray.
Make a trade for a RH bat, it is more important than another pitcher.
But how long do you wait for Edwin to be CONSISTENT?
4-17-2008 The Father of the chaos Theory Dies
June it is then...How about the 19th?
That’s Mrs. Madville’s and my 32nd anniversary of wedded bliss for and years of training and struggle for her.
Radiohead killed the Video Star
im sick of waiting every year for eddie e to heat up
i know its a long season, but isnt that was spring training is for? to warm up?
"Never perfect but perfectly forgiven." -Petra
by shortstopv2 on Apr 18, 2008 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions
hey, he's not making outs
at a terrible rate, which is what Gonzo would be doing.
i didnt really see that from gonzo last year
you probably know more about him than i do, but i thought he did pretty well with the bat as a Red. Its just edwin is suppose to support this team with him being one of our only right handed bats, and until we get someone who can hit constantly as a right hander we will struggle offensively
"Never perfect but perfectly forgiven." -Petra
by shortstopv2 on Apr 19, 2008 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions
the guy had a career year
but his OBP was only .325 compared to Edwin’s .379 at this point in the season. Gonzalez also had a career high SLG, and its higher than Edwin’s right now, but I don’t expect Gonzo to repeat that percentage or Edwin’s to remain where it is right now.
Has no one noticed that Edwin has gotten hot?
He has an 8 game hitting streak which raised his average from .083 to .241. He’s played in 16 games. The first 8 he didn’t hit (but did get on base and smacked that clutch homer) the last 8 he’s hit .366. I just don’t understand why we’re having this conversation now.
the only problem is he seems to do this every year
usually you try to get the kinks out in spring training
"Never perfect but perfectly forgiven." -Petra
and yet, his numbers don't look bad at the end of the season
Everybody slumps at some point in the season. What difference does it make when you slump? Hell, we’d be pretty lucky if everybody only slumped for 8 games at a time. I’m looking at you Corey Patterson.
WHY SHOULD I CHANGE IT? HE'S THE ONE WHO SUCKS!
somewhere i heard
ryan garko was available maybe not
"Never perfect but perfectly forgiven." -Petra
by shortstopv2 on Apr 18, 2008 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Roster makeup is the issue
Hatteberg doesnt serve a real purpose with Votto here. And his GABP splits are waaaaay above his road splits.
Patterson is a 5th OF. He has reverted to his OBP career mean. Great defensive sub, LH bat off the bench. That is it. Bruce needs to be here within a month.
Lack of RH bats has been an issue for several years.
im not that worried about the pitching. i am worried about the O.
On the fucking money abc2. Offense, consistent O is where we're deficient.
Bruce needs to be here now. So does Belizzle (He is not as bad as Fogg, period) and so does Bray. Why doesn’t anyone but me think that Keppinger is the best guy we’ve got for a leadoff hitter.
Kepp
J.Bruce
Griff
Dunn
BP
Votto
Edwin (or Gonzo)
Ross
this could work.
Radiohead killed the Video Star
He'd be a good choice
Who has said he wasn’t? Although I’d prefer someone who works the pitcher more. The Reds just don’t one of those guys.
I think everyone here probably thinks he's the best choice for leadoff
but they are yet to allow any of us to make these decisions.
Yeah
It’s “same guy syndrome” as Fay put it. They’re all good players (except maybe Castro), but too many of them are too similar.
We don’t need two left-handed first basemen. We don’t need two scrappy, speedy, right-handed contact hitters. We don’t need two left-handed pinch-hitters.
how about Kenji Johjima?
He’s not playing real well so far this season, but buying low on him wouldn’t be a bad move, IMO. He might be able to put up good numbers outside of the AL West and all of those huge parks.
Seattle could use Hatteberg. Don’t know who else.
Well speaking of Hatteberg..it is about my bedtime
Better luck tomorrow. Go Reds.
What? no i don’t want to go to bed with Hatte, its just that his play is putting me to sleep…geez
Radiohead killed the Video Star
this always cheers me up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w29O0IjO2Y&;feature=related
Can't win with this team
Tinker with it here and there, and they are still high risk low return – Dunn will be gone next year, as will Griffey – time for new young blood. But right now they are stuck with low production at key spots in lineup, rookie pitchers, Arroyo, Castro – it’s frankly just not that good a team. Bring in Jockety to make the moves that have to be made.
i dont entirely agree
while i do think we’re not a great team, i think we’re closer to being one than we have been in years. This team might not win as many games as in 06, but on paper it’s a better team and one that’s closer to a 90-win team than a 70-win team. I honestly believe that if we call up Bruce and get one more righty bat and regular production from somewhere else, we are a very good team that can contend in the central. i like the idea of a harang-cueto-volquez-bailey-belisle rotation, and i think our bullpen will be leaps and bounds better than last year once a season’s worth of stats are recorded. that leaves the lineup, and if we can get some production out of the center field and catcher slots and some of the other guys break out of their power slumps, it’s a good lineup again.
Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah
I agree a little bit ...
But what I see on this team is a large dependency on power slots that don’t deliver. It’s high risk, low return – occasionally Dunn will come through, or Encarnacion, but all too often the team gets something going only to have it snuffed out by those two. I see a need for new blood, as with this deck of cards, no matter how you shuffle it, there seems to be a vacuum somewhere in the lineup – a rally-killing force.
There’s been some bad signings – Freel, Arroyo, Castro, Coffey, that take up valuable slots – now they have the horses in AAA to make things happen, but no mobility – they can’t bring people up without eating contracts. Not gonna happen.
I’ll be happy with a 500 season, saints permitting, and look to a Griffey/Dunn-less team in 2009 with speed and power and on-base potential in 7 slots, instead of three or four.
dunn and encarnacion don't have on-base potential?
Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah
NL 3B's (age 25 production)
Granted, I dont have every national league third sacker’s name memorized. i went with the one i do know, which might slightly skew the analysis b/c i dont know who the no-performers are.
Name and OPS+
Atkins – 93
Kouzmanoff – 109
Zimmerman – 114 (age 21)
C. Jones – 108, 139, 118 (by age 25)
D. Wright – 139, 133, 150 (by age 25)
Aramis – 74, 122, 72, 102 (by age 25)
Rolen – 121, 139, 119, 129 (by age 25)
Braun – 153
Glaus – 98, 150, 133, 113 (by age 25)
Cabrera – 130, 151, 159, 159 (by age 24)
Uncle
EdE does not compare favorably with…
-a future Hall of Famer (Cabrera)
-a potential HOFer and perennial MVP candidate (Jones)
-a perennial MVP candidate who should have won it last year (Wright)
-the best all-round 3rd baseman of the last decade (Rolen)
-an American League juicer with the most beautiful RH swing I’ve ever seen (Glaus)
-the 2007 ROY (Braun)
-the 2006 ROY runner-up with a lower career and by-season OBP than EdE (Zimmerman)
-a dude who’s hauling in 10mil per who had an absolutely freakish year 23 season, a shit year 24 season, and an EdE like age 25 season (Ramirez)
-a guy with an NL pennant? (Atkins)
-a slugger who, like, Zimmerman is less of threat to get on base than EdE (Kouzmanoff)
Go home, Elpidio.
I've got a plan and it's as hot as my pants...
by Man Mountain on Apr 19, 2008 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
right
EdE is not going to be Miggy, Chipper, or David Wright. he most likely will never put up a season that is top 5 among NL third basemen for that year. if someone thinks EdE is suppose to be an all-star, they are dreaming. i would happily take the next 4 years at around 110-120 OPS. and that possibility is certainly attainable. and, again, because i dont think it has been said enough, EdE is just 25.
Abraham Lincoln said that if you're a racist, I will invade you with the north.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Apr 19, 2008 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
how are we supposed to get one of those guys?
you can compare him with the other guys in league all night, but those guys are on those teams. What we have to work with is the guys on our team and free agents. yes, he’s probably not one of the top 10 third basemen in the world, but that doesnt mean that his services grow on trees
Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah
We are in a golden era of third basemen
You can play this game with Votto too. He’s behind Pujols, Howard, Fielder, Lee, Berkman, Texeira, Adrian Gonzalez, maybe Conor Jackson… Throw the bum out!
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