Reds get swept by Pirates, wrap/open thread

by boobs on Apr 13, 2008 4:17 PM EDT

I'm going to forget this ever happened.

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hopefully this is just a blip on the radar

for a NL central champion reds team, i never heard anything from you guys but how do you guys think arroyo did yesterday?

"Never perfect but perfectly forgiven." -Petra

by shortstopv2 on Apr 13, 2008 4:21 PM EDT reply actions

Jesus swept.

by Brendanukkah on Apr 13, 2008 4:26 PM EDT reply actions

jesus walked

Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on Apr 13, 2008 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions

In the immortal works of Ken Singleton

"A man once told me to walk with the Lord. I'd rather walk with the bases loaded."

David Duchovny, why won't you love me?

by BubbaFan on Apr 13, 2008 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions

The Coffey was pretty bad today

And I was hoping Cueto would make that obnoxious Pirates fan remember his name. He did all right; they just left him in too long, I guess.

On the bright side...Bako is a hitting machine. Gonna be hard to send him down when Ross is ready to come off the DL.

David Duchovny, why won't you love me?

by BubbaFan on Apr 13, 2008 4:53 PM EDT reply actions

Bako is going to come down to Earth at some point

he is just a step above Chad Moller.

I don't really think you can say Dusty left Cueto in too long, he only threw 82 pitches. I feel like if we look at teh peripharals the Reds should have won the series. Ian Snell got by last night on smoke an mirrors last night. He was in trouble just about every inning, he had a game WHIP of 1.74. The Reds just defied the odds, and Mark Berry fucked up in the first, twice. Again this afternoon Cueto's periphals are good, 6 K's, 1 walk, and a game WHIP of 1.

The Dusty Path to the World Series!*

*Note this is not an endorsment of Dusty Baker.

by justin007000 on Apr 13, 2008 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions

Cueto did pretty well

The Pirates played over their heads today so tip the cap to them. Seriously they only had 6 guys get on base when he pitched and got 5 runs somehow...

Norris Hopper's #1 fan!!!

by Zach K on Apr 13, 2008 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions

yikes.

Just got back from a day at the beach just 15 kilometers from San Pedro, the town Johnny Cueto grew up in. On the bus ride back, I had a dream that J-Cuest no hit the pirates and the Reds won 1-0. At least I got half the score right....

Tanzen!

by Verka Serduchka on Apr 13, 2008 4:55 PM EDT reply actions

Aw, Mitch Hedberg's on "That '70's Show"

Let's all remember happier times, shall we?

by Brendanukkah on Apr 13, 2008 5:42 PM EDT reply actions

that fucker eats cake

he smell like flour

Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on Apr 13, 2008 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions

Ok let's face it

The Pirates got every break in the series...todays game showcased that to the extreme though.

Another thing I'm still not seeing EdE's upside to be a great 3B like many do...he seems to always start off awful but then get better as the season goes on but his overall numbers just turn out to be average compared to other NL 3B. I know he had a great 2nd half in '06 and was solid in the second half of '07 but with Jeff K's offense and with Gonzo coming of the DL soon it would be quite stupid to keep running EdE out there everyday when Jeff K is a better player. I hope Dusty moves Edwin to the 2nd spot of the line up and Jeff K to the 6th spot. Edwin is patient at the plate and makes the pitcher throw some pitches but for whatever reason can't hit well with runners on base in the early part of the season.

Norris Hopper's #1 fan!!!

by Zach K on Apr 13, 2008 6:16 PM EDT reply actions

given that threesome

I would play Kepp at short and EdE at 3rd. I am not a big fan of Gonzalez. He does start slow but is more than average the final 3 months

Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds

by Caleb on Apr 13, 2008 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions

I don't think anyone thinks he'll be great

but he's definitely a better option than Gonzalez offensively. My only real argument right now for people calling for his head is that you don't throw out a starter, especially one that has hit pretty good in the past, just because of a 13 game stretch. I know he's been frustrating, but he's not the only one failing to drive in any runs. And like I said earlier, he's pretty much won 2 games for the Reds this year with his bat. That's got to buy some good will, doesn't it?

WHY SHOULD I CHANGE IT? HE'S THE ONE WHO SUCKS!

by Slyde on Apr 13, 2008 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions

his defense has me worried

Maybe a sports psychologist would be good for him. I think he may just be pressing too damn much.

The Dusty Path to the World Series!*

*Note this is not an endorsment of Dusty Baker.

by justin007000 on Apr 13, 2008 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions

I'm not basing this off a 13 game stretch

Career wise EdE career wise creates 5.6 Runs a game and Jeff K has created 5.5 for his career. No big difference right? Now I didn't say we should get rid of Edwin but If Jeff K is still leading the team in Runs Created and Batting Average I say we start him at 3rd over Edwin. Edwin's rough defensive start is also concerning 4 errors in 13 attempts is god awful. Now I didn't look up the Win Shares or OWS stats but if a "clutch" home run is the reason one would want to keep him around and not the big picture of things I can't understand that logic. I do like Edwin's patiences at the plate he leads the team in walks right now and I'm sure he is up there with pitches seen but after that everything is below average...

Norris Hopper's #1 fan!!!

by Zach K on Apr 13, 2008 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions

Honestly, I'm tired of defending EdE already, but I feel like you deserver a response

Don't be offended if I don't respond after this. I may cut myself off because I'm sure people don't want to hear it right now.

Career wise EdE career wise creates 5.6 Runs a game and Jeff K has created 5.5 for his career.

Two things about this. First, EdE did it over nearly 1300 career PAs. Keppinger is barely over 500. Also, EdE did all of that while under the age of 25, Keppinger turns 28 next week. I like Keppinger. I think he's a very good hitter, but I think Edwin has more upside still than Keppinger, and he's proven over a greater number of at bats to be more productive, even if it's only slightly. Besides, I'm fine with Keppinger at SS.

Edwin's rough defensive start is also concerning 4 errors in 13 attempts is god awful.

He's actually had 26 attempts (9 PO, 13 Assists, 4 Errors) going into today's game. It's still not good, but it's better than the 13 you quoted. But really what if he goes 2 weeks without an error? Or a month? He did it last year. Fielders slump just like hitters. His defense was greatly improved last season after coming up from Louisville. He's not going to be a wizard in the field, but if he can get to adequate, he'll be more than valuable overall.

if a "clutch" home run is the reason one would want to keep him around and not the big picture of things I can't understand that logic.

The point of bringing up the two big home runs was more to say that he's still helped the team, not to say he'll continue to win games with home runs. You know how I feel about "clutch." I'm not calling him a clutch player so much as saying that he deserves a little slack since even while he's struggled he's done some things to drastically affect a couple of wins.

Honestly, what this comes down to is that I'm not one to start panicking just yet. Three days ago people were seriously talking about 90+ wins for this team and now all of the sudden everyone is talking about who should be dumped or traded or whatever. This isn't a great team and it's not going to suddenly become a great team by putting Gonzalez in for Edwin (a move that is at best a lateral move). And I don't see the point, on a team already scarce with right-handed bats, of benching or sending down one of them to get more playing time for a historically weaker hitter.

WHY SHOULD I CHANGE IT? HE'S THE ONE WHO SUCKS!

by Slyde on Apr 13, 2008 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions

I don't think Ede is a bad player

My arguement is when Gonzo comes back that if Jeff K is still playing better then Edwin that he should start instead of EdE. Sorry about putting 13 attempts Instead of 26 that was just a goof up on my part...yes I just said that. Now I know most people here are not Gonzo fans but he had a real solid season with limited ABs last season

Gonzo 393ABs 16HRs .272/.325/.468 5.0 RC per game

EdE had over 100 more ABs and finished with the same amount of HRs and a lower slugging percentage. For a middle of a line up hitter who has played close to 2 and half MLB seasons we can get a pretty good idea of what to expect. 10-15 HRs, lots of doubles and a very solid On Base Percentage. That is why I sugjest if we keep Edwin he should not be hitting 6th but 2nd. I know his career slugging percentage is above the NL average for a 3B but it has been declining rapidly after his '06 season.

Norris Hopper's #1 fan!!!

by Zach K on Apr 14, 2008 7:29 AM EDT up reply actions

Okay, so I'm going to respond

but this is not so much about EdE as it is about evaluating players. You are comparing EdE to Gonzalez last season, a year for Sea Bass that looks very different than any of his previous years except maybe one. I'm afraid it might be a bit optimistic to think that Gonzalez is going to come back from injury and put up another career year like he did last year. Whereas, with Edwin only being 25, it's not unreasonable to think that he might improve on what he did last year. He was a pretty good hitter (.307/.370/.476) after he came back up from Louisville as well - and that's in nearly as many games as Gonzalez played all of last season. Given what we've seen from him in the past, I think he's got 35 2B/20 HR power, if he can just get the hell out of this slump he's in.

And for what it's worth, he's gone .333/.375/.533 since his day off against Milwaukee. It just sucks that none of those hits came when he had the bases loaded those 3 times. (Sorry, that last part is more about Edwin that player evaluation).

And I agree that maybe a temporary move up to the 2-spot in the order might help him to just focus on see-the-ball/hit-the-ball. Maybe he feels a little too much pressure in his spot to not only break his slump, but also to get it done in critical situations.

WHY SHOULD I CHANGE IT? HE'S THE ONE WHO SUCKS!

by Slyde on Apr 14, 2008 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions

Gonzales returns

Kep goes to 3rd, EE is the right handed part of a platoon with Votto at 1st. Any opinions?

by EJ on Apr 13, 2008 6:44 PM EDT reply actions

That... Sucked... Holy... Crap...

The Pirates need to die...

by crolfer on Apr 13, 2008 7:05 PM EDT reply actions

I think

there are still Reds on base at PNC park as we speak.

I can't wait for the reaction to Dusty up in Chi-town. Should be entertaining.

by xjjeep90 on Apr 13, 2008 8:27 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs

Sean Casey...

...just hit a ground rule double off Phil Hughes. Would have been a homer in any other park. OTOH, it might have been a fly out in this park, if Bobby Abreu weren't so scairt of the fence.

This is Hughes' bugaboo. It sometimes takes him 30 pitches or more to get out of an inning. Especially the first inning. He gets better as the game goes on, but by then his pitch count is so high they can't leave him in too long.

David Duchovny, why won't you love me?

by BubbaFan on Apr 13, 2008 8:42 PM EDT reply actions

I just can't justify EE

I want to like Edwin Encarnacion. One of the high school guys I coached knows him and says he is a really nice guy and wants to succeed. Because of this, I want him to do well. He shows flashes of being really good .....but......I just cannot justify it unless he produces. When he is on, he hits for a solid average, solid power, and usually hits well with men on base. At best, he is an average defender. So, at best, I think his upside is an average to slightly above-average third baseman. Yet, his inconsistency is infuriating.
I have to agree that the Reds must at least consider putting Keppinger at 3rd and Gonzo at SS when he returns. I see EE as a guy who can play 3rd on some days and 1st against tough lefties. I realize that EE's offensive upside is better than Gonzo's. However, I don't think it is THAT much higher. If they both have a good year, I think you would see .285 20-25HR 85RBI from EE and .265-.270 18-25 HR and 70RBI from Gonzo. However, this move would significantly upgrade your defensive consistency, which means something in my book. If EE doesn't start producing, I think the Reds have to consider this.

Thoughts?

by nighthawk32 on Apr 13, 2008 10:15 PM EDT reply actions

justifying EE

EE career OPS+ - 101
Sea Bass career OPS + - 80

last year, Sea Bass had the best offensive year of his 10 year career. his OPS+ was 99. he will never hit that well again. EE is 25 with only 1158 ABs for his young career. he has plenty of room to grow. as for the defense, Sea Bass is getting by on his reputation by now. his range was shown to be just average last year for a SS. EE is clearly the better player, whether you are playing for this year or next.

Abraham Lincoln said that if you're a racist, I will invade you with the north.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Apr 14, 2008 8:06 AM EDT up reply actions