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Around SBN: Knicks Beat Lakers With Familiar Strategy

Sunday Game Thread: Reds at Rays

I'm on a road trip today, but I wanted to throw up this all important game thread first.  It's the Reds vs. the Rays:


 vs  

Here's your Reds lineup (from CTR):
Freel cf
Hopper lf
Bruce rf
Votto 1b
Cabrera 3b
Keppinger ss
Kroski c
Castro 2b
Hanigan dh

Belisle p

Other pitchers on the travel roster
Adkins
Fogg
McBeth
Pelland
Ramirez
Roenicke
Salmon
Sauerbeck
Thompson

Today's game thread also includes a pop quiz.  Please state at least ten ways in which Paul Daugherty is wrong.  You have 30 minutes.  I have extra blue books at my desk if you run out of room.

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First..
Had to.. Hey I was thinking the Wiki needed some updating.. I updated broadcasters a little..
"Sometimes, you get so caught up in on-base percentage that you're clogging up the bases." - our very own D. Baker - Oh my..

by snohio on Mar 9, 2008 11:11 AM EDT reply actions  

Be honest
They're really just driving Sauerbeck to the county line to leave him there.  "Run along boy!  You're free now."

by Brendanukkah on Mar 9, 2008 11:54 AM EDT reply actions  

Here's one..
Although it is nit-picky..
How Baker runs a game strategically is far less important than what he is able to pull from his employees, 162 times a summer.
Summer starts June 20th and ends September 22nd which is 93 days. Hard to play 162 games in 93 days.

And with any luck maybe we could shoot for playing more than 162 games this year? How about 165 at least. (Yes that means being swept in the playoffs, but come on even that would take some luck..)

"Sometimes, you get so caught up in on-base percentage that you're clogging up the bases." - our very own D. Baker - Oh my..

by snohio on Mar 9, 2008 12:12 PM EDT reply actions  

Your right..
Oh shit.. I forgot that.. Ya know. We should go a whole season of not using them.. We should instead post audio recordings of the balls against bats and gloves to prove our points..

What does the sound of a baseball hitting turf sound like in front of an outfielder?

"Sometimes, you get so caught up in on-base percentage that you're clogging up the bases." - our very own D. Baker - Oh my..

by snohio on Mar 9, 2008 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

gameday?
Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on Mar 9, 2008 12:34 PM EDT reply actions  

thanks!
Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on Mar 9, 2008 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Daugherty
I love when people try to disparage sabermetrics by simplifying the argument, and end up proving the exact opposite of what they were trying to do.

Re: Blanton and W-L record
Daugherty would trade both Bailey and Votto for Blanton, and cares only about the W-L record of the pitcher in question.

Blanton was 14-10 in 34 starts.

Bailey was 4-2 in 9 Starts.  If he got 34 starts, Daugherty logic dicatates his record would be 15-8, which is way better than 14-10.  Bailey, again, by Daugherty logic, pitched way better than Blanton last year.  Why would he trade Bailey PLUS another guy for Blanton, when Bailey had a better record last year?

So, although he states the opposite conclusion, he really just proved that W-L record is a stupid way to evaluate pitchers.  And, um, I really hate to break this to him, but sabermetrics has been screaming this for a long, long time.

"Karma - there it was. The meaning of life, straight from Carson Daly's lips to my morphine-laced ears." -Earl Hickey

by BLee2525 on Mar 9, 2008 1:00 PM EDT reply actions  

I'm really really really hung-over.
Think Marty will help that at all?
The Dusty path to the World Series! (This is not an endorsement.)

by justin0070000 on Mar 9, 2008 1:03 PM EDT reply actions  

My email to Daugherty
I never email columnists, but I couldn't help myself:

"Hey Paul, here's another stat for you (don't worry, it's a simple one):

World Series Rings: Bill James 2; Dusty Baker 1

JD Arney"

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. --Oscar Wilde

by JD Arney on Mar 9, 2008 1:13 PM EDT reply actions  

Can't pick up WLW
would appreciate frequent updates on the game, as Gameday is so slow.
Reds fan for 40 years!

by gejoe on Mar 9, 2008 1:17 PM EDT reply actions  

Has Doc ever read a Bill James abstract?
Anyone with a library card can pick up one of James' mind-numbing baseball "abstracts," in which the author makes the game sound like a first cousin to biomechanical engineering.

James writes about his subject in an incredibly approachable manner. It was his best gift as a writer. He was a populizer, along the lines of Carl Sagan (here's a recent taste of James). Nothing is farther from the truth than claiming his writing made baseball sound like biomechanical engineering, rocket science, brain surgery or any other frighteningly-complicated-thingy.

by Red Menace on Mar 9, 2008 1:44 PM EDT reply actions  

that cant be true
it's called an 'abstract', like those paintings where people's faces look like piles of dog shit. that ain't approachable.
Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on Mar 9, 2008 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I get the feeling...
..that it's not so much Bill James and his subject matter that Doc finds "mind-numbing" as it is...books.

I mean, he's belittling "anyone with a library card" and yet admits that he's astounded by a baby boomer's ability to remember Van Morrison lyrics.

When you get right down to it, Doc's column is the equivalent of a bully shoving a kid down on the sidewalk because he's carrying home an arm load of... books.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Mar 9, 2008 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Of course...
..there is this one.

And there's also Dusty's contribution to this one due out later this month.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Mar 9, 2008 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

what's with the hate for
biomechanical engineering?

I mean, maybe Bill James makes them sound alike in that they are both beautiful and can save thousands of lives.

Also, perhaps they are both things that are too complicated for Daugherty to hope to understand

Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.

by andromache on Mar 9, 2008 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

we r kucking their ass
Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on Mar 9, 2008 2:02 PM EDT reply actions  

Well, shite.
I swear my little XM display told me that the game started a 2.  I guess that's why numbers are dangerous.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Mar 9, 2008 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Paul Daugherty, the apostle of Cincy baseball
The the apostle Paul of the Cincy Enquirer:

"The best thing about Baker is that from all accounts, it's important to him to know his players individually: what jazzes them, what scares them, the situations that best suit their talents and temperaments. Contrary to the notions of the seamheads and stat freaks, players are not numbers.

"Managing" means exactly what it says: the ability to manage people. How Baker runs a game strategically is far less important than what he is able to pull from his employees.."

True, and yet not so true.
True: a manager has to know how to motivate players and get the best out of them.  I hope Dusty can do a better long term job than Dave Miley, Jerry Narron, or Bob Boone.  I actually think Pete Mackanin did an ok job of handling the team in his brief tenure.
Not so true: Their statistics are what makes them what they are. Dusty like Corey Patterson; why not let him bat clean-up? Or Ryan Freel; he hustles and is scrappy. Why not? Really.
Damn, those statistics again! It would seem a "better choice", using those statistics, that Ken Griffey, Adam Dunn or Brandon Phillips would make a better clean-up hitter. Why?

So by selectively using the numbers that he likes, Dusty doesn't quite manage by "the seat of his pants", as the Apostle Paul would indicate.

The fact is (fact!) that baseball IS a game of numbers and statistics. More than just about any other sport. The numbers tell the story.  They will write the story; which kind of eliminates the need for the silly make-believe fervor that the Apostle Paul of Cincy would like us all to read and believe.
Yes, Dusty has "won" 1162 games, all without his players.
Fact: you need players, good players, to win consistently in baseball
Fact: you judge the players by their statistics
Fact: If you are too stupid to understand the statistics, Paul, perhaps you could get a job writing about TV or movies or other artistic endeavors, something so subjective that no one will notice your lack on intelligence when it comes to understanding numbers.

I filled my blue book, and now I'm done.

Thank you for not smoking; except for Cool God, who can do whatever He wants.

"I guess I picked a bad day to stop sniffing glue!"- Lloyd Bridges

by Lonesome George on Mar 9, 2008 2:15 PM EDT reply actions  

Annnnd...
..Freel makes another nice play with a diving catch what the Rays' announcers call "a late break on the ball."

by Fat Vegas Alan on Mar 9, 2008 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll give it a go.
The best baseball managing is done by the seat of your pants, using good, old-fashioned, pre-sabermetric logic. That's another reason to like Dusty Baker. (Beyond his knowledge of single-malt Scotches and Van Morrison lyrics, which is merely astounding and downright Renaissance.) If Baker manages by a book, it's one inside his head, not one written by Bill James.

It's also one called "See Spot Run". Shut it, Doc.

The other day, the Reds manager decided he wanted Joey Votto and Adam Dunn to swing their bats more. "I don't like called third strikes," Baker said.

Adam Dunn wasn't even mentioned by Dusty, actually, and Dusty kinda skirted around the question when specifically asked by Fay about Dunn. We get it, Paul. You hate Adam Dunn. Probably because Adam Dunn is far more intelligent, makes far more money, is significantly better looking, and could beat your moronic ass any time he pleased. But he won't, because he's not an assclown like you.

Can we get an Amen?

Nope!

It always amuses when fans defend heart-of-the-order hitters by pointing to their on-base percentage. Wow, look at all those walks.

Not as much as it amuses when idiot sportswriters think they actually know something about baseball. Another thinly veiled shot at Dunn, though. Good to see you've got your journalistic integrity and don't hold stupid vendettas, Paul.

Unless they're intentional walks, or the big boppers are being pitched around, walks aren't what you want from players hitting third through sixth. You want them up there smart-hacking.

Smart-hacking is an oxymoron. You're just a regular moron.

As Baker said: "(Votto) needs to swing more. I'd like to see him more aggressive."

By-the-book managing is for men who aren't confident in their ability to read players and situations. It's for managers who don't know their players' personalities. It's what you do so you can say later, after it backfires: "Don't blame me. I went by the book."

And by the head-book managing results in Juan Castro pinch-hitting for Josh Hamilton. I'll take excuses over outright failures.

The best thing about Baker is that from all accounts, it's important to him to know his players individually: what jazzes them, what scares them, the situations that best suit their talents and temperaments. Contrary to the notions of the seamheads and stat freaks, players are not numbers.

Rather a seamhead than a Dustafarian, hot stuff.

"Managing" means exactly what it says: the ability to manage people. How Baker runs a game strategically is far less important than what he is able to pull from his employees, 162 times a summer.

The first possibly accurate thing you've said in this article. Of course, if you're pulling from Norris Hopper and Corey Patterson and Jeremy Affeldt and Scott Hatteberg over Jay Bruce and Homer Bailey and Joey Votto, you're doing more damage than good. Even if you pull the absolute best that Juan Castro can give you out of Juan Castro, Juan Castro is going to be a crappy baseball player. Statistics and common sense dictate this. If you pull the best you can out of Jay Bruce, then you're actually doing something.

Anyone with a laptop can locate the Web site baseball- reference.com and sound like an expert. Anyone with a library card can pick up one of James' mind-numbing baseball "abstracts," in which the author makes the game sound like a first cousin to biomechanical engineering.

Maybe you should try that "sounding like an expert" thing, because right now you "sound like a fucktard".

It ain't that scientific.

The NFL does the same thing, in a different fashion. To convince you that pro football is actually a 17-week MENSA convention, The League whips out its 800-page playbooks and offers up oh-so-serious coaches who work 20 hours a day and act as if their jobs involve brain surgery and a red telephone.

Possibly, it's less complex. Block. Tackle. Win.

Brilliant! "Alright, offensive linemen go ahead and block. Linebackers, you go ahead and try to tackle the guy with the ball. Victory is assured. Assured!

Baseball's cerebral side involves numbers. While I believe in baseball-card wisdom - you are who the back of your card says you are - it's just a little piece of the whole. When some of us (OK, me mostly) advocated dealing, say, Votto and Homer Bailey for Oakland pitcher Joe Blanton, the Statboys came out flame-throwing numbers:

Blanton's a creation of his spacious home ballpark! Look at his ERA, home and away! Blanton's a flyball pitcher! Check out his ratio of groundballs to flies!

If you shot back that Blanton has won 42 times in the last three years - and that he went 7-5 at home last year and 7-5 on the road - if you suggested that no number matters but Games Won, you were dismissed as an illiterate.

No number matters but games won? I...what...what?

(Actually, maybe Blanton won as many on the road as at home, even with a much higher road ERA, because Oakland's hitters worked under the same conditions as their pitcher. Allow more runs, score more runs. And factually, flyball man Blanton gave up only 16 home runs in 230 innings last year. But never mind.)

Take out the exceptional condescension and you're starting to formulate a real argument as to why the Reds should trade for Joe Blanton. That's not a "never mind".

Numbers are fun to look at but dangerous to dwell on. Baker understands this. If Dunn walks 30 fewer times this year, he'll drive in 15 more runs. His on-base percentage will dip. Oh, no.

And if the batters in front of Dunn walk 30 more times, he'll probably drive in quite a few more runs as well. Ba-pow!

If Votto takes fewer first-pitch strikes, his run production will improve.

Joey Votto has never had a problem with run production! He struck out once -- once -- looking in a spring training game, Dusty commented on it, and you based an entire ridiculous article on it (and probably four hours on your unlistenable radio show).

And so on. Here's a stat: Wins as manager: Dusty Baker, 1,162; Bill James, 0.

Oh yeah? Here's another one. Losses as manager: Dusty Baker, 1041; Bill James, 0. And I got those numbers from baseball-reference.com. I'm not gonna lie, I feel like a fucking expert right now. Shit yeah.

by Geki on Mar 9, 2008 2:48 PM EDT reply actions  

Fogg stays in for his third inning.
But it seems that everyone else has been replaced.

(Fogg gets it done 1-2-3.)

by Fat Vegas Alan on Mar 9, 2008 2:59 PM EDT reply actions  

Oh the Fay.
"He told to me to basically forget what happened so far and get after it," Belisle said. "He said while staring in my eyes."

Either Dusty is creepy or the Fay doesn't deserve his job.

by Geki on Mar 9, 2008 3:02 PM EDT reply actions  

Fay
Today's blog post was a great example of how difficult it is to read John Fay.  Now I understand why his newspaper stuff reads like a bulletpoint list of quotes - because that's the best the editor can do with the garbage that Fay gives him.

by Brian B on Mar 9, 2008 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

my shot at the Doc:
you must be dumb or something.

pencils down.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 9, 2008 3:08 PM EDT reply actions  

Heres mine
   I know change is hard to deal with Paul.  I don't know all the ins and outs of statistical analysis either but I don't stomp my feet and throw a hissy fit when I hear a new point of view.  Get out of the way Paul, you are officially obsolete. Don't worry though, you'll always be my number one "baseball guy."

by The Crushinator on Mar 9, 2008 3:15 PM EDT reply actions  

thompson
just struck out the side.  what did austin kearns do today?

by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 9, 2008 3:24 PM EDT reply actions  

lol
and the debate lives on...
Reds fan for 40 years!

by gejoe on Mar 9, 2008 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

John Erardi
Lost in the middle of the Daugherty asshattery, Erardi wrote up a nice little article about run differential, and what the Reds need to get on the right side of it.  I am HTML stupid, so I hope I got these tags right.

Run Differential
Step 1: The Formula
Step 2: The Sliding Scale
Step 3: How to Get There
Step 3a: The Bullpen
Step 4: The Offense
Step 4a: The Encarnacion Factor
Step 5: The Bottom Line

This is great stuff.  Definitely worth a read.  It's basic enough that you don't need a 300-level sabermetrics education to understand it, and in-depth enough that the Slydes of the world won't be bored.  Can somebody please email this to Daugherty?  I get the feeling he has me on "ignore."

"Karma - there it was. The meaning of life, straight from Carson Daly's lips to my morphine-laced ears." -Earl Hickey

by BLee2525 on Mar 9, 2008 3:25 PM EDT reply actions  

Wow
Very good read indeed.  It's nice to get these glimmers of rationality and insight in the mainstream media.  Maybe not everyone will be caught off guard when the Actas and Hillmans of the world start to really change the game.

by Brendanukkah on Mar 9, 2008 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

How can
Erardi and Daugherty exist on the same newspaper staff?  Shouldn't they cancel each other out, like matter and anti-matter?
Like stupid (St Paul) and anti-stupid (John Erardi)?

Really, in a few short essays, Erardi nails it completely. And he didn't have to show off with any really fancy statistics.

  1. How do the Reds get to the point of giving up fewer runs?  (Question: Does the addition of Joe Blanton really help the situation, looking at those crazy sabremetric statistics?  Maybe not, huh?)
  2. How do we get more run production? Which is why some of us questioned trading Josh Hamilton for Edinson Volquez. Volquez may indeed SOME DAY be a fine pitcher, but losing Hamilton puts a big donut hole in the offense.  Especially if Dusty insists on playing the menage au trois of Freel/Hopper/Patterson in CF.
"I guess I picked a bad day to stop sniffing glue!"- Lloyd Bridges

by Lonesome George on Mar 9, 2008 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just popping in to say "hi"
the Slydes of the world won't be bored.

Just wanted to point out that I helped Erardi on the article again, but the majority of the thought and math work was done by Greg Gajus (Greg in Atl here on RR).  It's not as obvious in the online version as it is in the print version.

I'm not bringing this up to toot my own horn (if I could do that I'd never leave the house - oh wait, I don't ever leave the house).  I'm bringing it up to praise Erardi for his willingness to look outside of the traditional train of thought and try to do something more than the crap that Doc spews.  The fact that he's willing to admit that he isn't an expert, but still wants to explore the concept is a breath of fresh air.  I wish that Erardi got more pub at the Enquirer, but I get the impression that his bosses aren't as into the stat side of things as he is.  Hopefully that will continue to evolve.

Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Mar 9, 2008 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

also
please send an email to Erardi at JERARDI@ENQUIRER.COM and let him know your thoughts on the article.  Hopefully if he gets enough support on the article, the Enquirer may be more interested in running similar pieces in the future.
Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Mar 9, 2008 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hmmmm...
Maybe this article deserves a thread of its own.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Mar 9, 2008 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

What are your thoughts on Bubba
getting the Craig Wilson treatment from the Mariners?

by Geki on Mar 9, 2008 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm really bummed, of course
But not totally shocked.  Since the Reds released Craig Wilson, I've been wondering about Bubba's shoulder.  Wilson had his shoulder surgery a month before Bubba had his, so if Wilson wasn't ready to play yet, you kind of figured it might be an issue with Bubba, too.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Mar 9, 2008 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

do you think...
it would be worth it to email a sports editor at the enquirer, pointing out how much more enjoyable it is to read an informative, open-minded piece like erardi's, than to read daugherty's combative, insulting article?
Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.

by andromache on Mar 9, 2008 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

absolutely
I don't think they will change their tune overall, but I do think it is more likely that we would get more articles from Erardi throughout the season.  And that's definitely a good thing.
Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Mar 9, 2008 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

at my newspaper
there is a great deal of attention paid to the few readers who bother to call in and complain. (We now have a policy of running NHRA results because of, we assume, one or two angry callers.) e-mailing can do some good, too, but I think calling to speak to the editor will have the most impact.

Here are the numbers at the Enquirer:

Assistant Managing Editor/Sports, Josh Pichler: (513) 768-8437
Assistant Sports Editor/Online, Tim Curtis: (513) 768-8055.

If you call the sports editor, I would suggest telling him how much you enjoyed Erardi's work and how thoughtful/thought provoking it is, and not just screaming that Doc is an asshat. Editors are usually very protective of the writers, and you'll get nowhere fast if you try to convince them that the writers are idiots. Maybe politely draw a contrast, but no more than that.

You can also hit up John Erardi to thank him here: (513) 768-8446.

Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on Mar 9, 2008 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is good
I hope people's responses will focus more on Erardi's success than Doc's failure.  People like Doc aren't going anywhere any time soon, but hopefully we can encourage The Enquirer to give us more thought provoking work like Erardi's in the future, rather than just resorting to more of Doc's silliness.
Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Mar 10, 2008 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

I emailed and called
this morning and left messages. Thanks for the tip, boobs.

Just the tip, though.

Two Dunns enter, but only one Dunn leaves...unless neither do because they decide to hunt, play cards, drink and fish. -Slyde

by Man Mountain on Mar 10, 2008 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Figures!
What a show off! :D
"I guess I picked a bad day to stop sniffing glue!"- Lloyd Bridges

by Lonesome George on Mar 9, 2008 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Heh, no
My main contribution was the lineup section, which was weird because I generally don't worry too much about lineup construction as much as who is in the lineup.  But, it was still fun to do.  I had a good time figuring all of the different permutations of the lineup.
Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Mar 9, 2008 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I really enjoyed Erardi's pieces
My one criticism is the over reliance on the passive voice ("Sabermetricians say..."). I thought the strongest parts were when Joel, Greg or the evidence were cited as the source rather than the faceless consensus of sabermetricians.

The movement in a lot of ways is an upheaval of the appeals to top-down authority such as Daughery's column. It's important to advance the method of thinking rather than a new authority.

by Red Menace on Mar 9, 2008 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed
The copy that I saw before it went to print had a lot less of that passive voice.  I think the problem lies in the fact that the paper doesn't have the space to go into the reasoning behind what was being said.  Plus, I think they were trying too hard to make it sound like "experts" wrote it.  
Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Mar 9, 2008 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

And there you go.
"The fact that he's willing to admit that he isn't an expert, but still wants to explore the concept is a breath of fresh air."

Having been a sports writer who covered everything from Frisbee golf to MLB, I wasn't an expert on all of it. No writer can be the well of all knowledge on every subject he covers. That's why as a writer/reporter you seek people who are experts.

When I covered college football, I knew the team very well. I didn't know as much as the coordinators, though. It wasn't hard for me to recognize that if you have Chad Pennington and Randy Moss on the roster, then quite often you have No. 10 throw the ball deep to No. 88. Understanding exactly what made that work, though, meant digging deeper into the minds of those who knew more about football than did I. It was quite fun, actually.

Doc has some points about managing. Motivating people is a great part of it. Knowing how to get players to respond -- who needs the pat on the head and who needs the kick in the rear -- is a real part of sports. Can it be measured statistically? Who cares? To portray the sabermetrics crowd as a bunch of geeky goobers, though, I can't fathom that. There isn't a statistic to measure everything, but the numbers are darned important in the decision making process in so many ways, from in-game management to whom to acquire in the off season.

Heck, I'm preaching to the choir, here.

We Are ... Marshall!

by Thundering Turtle on Mar 9, 2008 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

The big problem I have with Doc
is that he totally misrepresents what stats freaks in general believe and then pretends that they know nothing because of it.  Well, that and the fact that he's an asshead.
Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Mar 9, 2008 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Darryl Thompson
Strikes out the side.  Now, that's good managing!
Quick! Somebody make a Cincinnati loves Ken Griffey Jr. too! video

by TheC on Mar 9, 2008 3:28 PM EDT reply actions  

I hope to see Roenicke pitching the ninth
he hasn't pitched in at least 3 or 4 days hasn't he?

by The Crushinator on Mar 9, 2008 3:48 PM EDT reply actions  

It's over.
McBeth finished it.

Reds win!

by Fat Vegas Alan on Mar 9, 2008 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow. 5 Tampa errors.
But if it weren't for Edwin Jackson's junk, the Reds would have lost.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Mar 9, 2008 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Geki says it all:
Maybe you should try that "sounding like an expert" thing, because right now you "sound like a fucktard".
Core dude - Dustbag's core is not the core that is the core.

by Madville on Mar 9, 2008 4:23 PM EDT reply actions  

what did he say?
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Mar 9, 2008 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

He said if I know so much I guess i should be
the manager!!! I've never had a grown man use the classic "If you love it so much why don't you marry it" defense, of course made popular by the great debater Johnny Cochran, and Joe Zenga in thrid grade.

by The Crushinator on Mar 9, 2008 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow
Sounds awfully think-skinned.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Mar 9, 2008 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just sent back a "hell yeah
Ill be the manager" email, so hes probably going to try to work something out. So from now on all suggestions can be sent directly to me.

by The Crushinator on Mar 9, 2008 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

wow
Has he gotten worse over the past two years, or have I just grown smarter?  

Why does he hate statistics so much?  Yeah statistics aren't everything, but there isn't a better way to objectively judge a players worth.  If we went by what I saw, I guess Harang is a bad pitcher, I have seen him pitch in person on 5 occasions (I go to atleast 6 games but I always miss him) , he was roughed up 4 times.  But Brandon Claussen is great, I saw him pitch twice, and he won both times, pitching a combined 13 innings and giving up 3 runs.

The Dusty path to the World Series! (This is not an endorsement.)

by justin0070000 on Mar 9, 2008 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

What did Claussen sound like?
Was he really "popping" the ball into the catcher's mitt?  Why did we give up on him?

He was just so....GOOD?

Anecdotal reporting should always trump the seasonal or career stats of any player or pitcher.  That's the basic reporter's way of analyzing anything.

"Numbers? Numbers? We don't need no stinkin' numbers!" - Paul "Gringo" Daugherty

"I guess I picked a bad day to stop sniffing glue!"- Lloyd Bridges

by Lonesome George on Mar 9, 2008 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

RE: hating stats
ive thought about this alot lately.  and if you all would indulge me, i would love to share.  

i would liken "old-school" baseball to fundementalist religions.  the argument is that validity stems not from logic and reason, but from "faith" or "gut-feeling" or, as has been recently posited, "Dusty's ears".  so when science attempts to explain such phenomena as prayer or God or what-have-you, the excerise is fundementally flawed.  you cant explain God with science.  its the same way with "old-school" baseball.  in old times, players were evaluated with ethereal metrics like "speed" or "heart" or "hustle" or "power".  but then stat-heads came along and attempted to explain it in a new way, using logic and reason and hard science.  to the old-school baseball dude, this is akin to heresy.  

now, i realize this might be construed as inflamatory to someone of faith, but please rest assured i mean no malice.  in equating the argument between new-school baseball (which is right) and old-school baseball (which is wrong) to the argument between science and faith, im drawing now normative conclusions, merely metaphysical ones.  its the nature of the argument im equating, not the validity.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 9, 2008 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've been thinking about this a lot lately
I spend a great deal of my online time involved in the skeptic movement. The similarities of the arguments I find myself in there and in the baseball world are striking. In one tab it's Adam Dunn and strikeouts, in another it's the ability of dowsers or autism and vaccinations, but I feel like I'm firmly on one side of the fence in all regards.

The classic line of attack on sabermetrics--that we don't watch games or don't enjoy the crackofthebat aesthetics--is essentially the unweaving the rainbow argument, that when science explains a phenomenon it robs it of it's beauty and wonder; that scientists are cold, passionless people.

by Red Menace on Mar 9, 2008 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

related
Best-baseball-writer-in-America Joe Posnanski has a wonderful piece that in many parts seems to be a direct rebuttal to Daugherty, including this nugget:

*I want to point out that I got these statistics from the Bill James Website. I would also like to take a moment to say something about my friend Bill, something that he probably would not want me to say. But every couple of weeks, it seems I will see yet another person throw Bill out there as the essence of statistical evils and pajama-wearing baseball geekdom. It makes makes me pretty ill. True, part if it is because we are friends, but a much larger part is that if you read Bill's work at all, if you look at his theories with anything resembling an open mind, if you consider at all what he's getting at ... you realize that the man LOVES baseball. I mean loves baseball, loves the game, loves the stories, loves the characters, loves the ins and outs of strategy, loves the moments, loves trying to figure out why things happen, and why so many people buy into stuff that is probably nonsense. I don't mind people saying that Bill is full of crap -- hell, we ALL have to deal with that (and Bill is never shy about saying that someone else is full of crap, including me). But the people who try to make it sound like Bill's love and understanding of baseball are wrapped up in obscure mathematics and unworkable thoughts and cold data just don't get it at all.

The post also has some great stuff about Aaron Harang.

http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/03/09/statheads-and-true-wins/

by Red Menace on Mar 9, 2008 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Joe Posnanski is amazing.
He really is. Every time I read something by this guy, he manages to be logical, reasonable, interesting, and not Paul Daugherty. Astounding.

by Geki on Mar 9, 2008 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

2008 Team Preview
Came across a solid article detailing the Reds lineup, pitching rotation and bullpen for this season. It even gives a conclusion with a win total expectation, and insight on the team's future. Has a user poll at the end too!

http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2008/03/09/the-2008-cincinnati-reds-high-risk-high-reward/

by ET90210 on Mar 9, 2008 4:34 PM EDT reply actions  

Daugherty
has officially been FJM'd
"Karma - there it was. The meaning of life, straight from Carson Daly's lips to my morphine-laced ears." -Earl Hickey

by BLee2525 on Mar 9, 2008 6:17 PM EDT reply actions  

And it is glorious.
http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2008/03/theres-war-brewing.html

Kudos to whoever sent it to them, considering there's a good chance it's an RR.  And Geki's version was pretty good too.

"I'm just like everybody else. I have two arms, two legs, and four-thousand hits." - Pete Rose

by BK on Mar 9, 2008 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wish I could erase my memory
And enjoy it all over again from the start.

by The Crushinator on Mar 9, 2008 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don't get too upset, I guess
Columnists survive as long as Daugherty has by reflecting the readership they serve.

In the Enquirer's case, they're mostly very conservative, totally averse to risk or change, and hate nerds.

So, I can imagine he probably looks at a set of issues, says "what can I write about today that's gonna get the bubbas saying "you tell em paul"" then puts pen to paper.

Check his blog. He's saying that the cold snap is proof that there is no such thing as global warming. Yep.

by bobestes on Mar 9, 2008 8:21 PM EDT reply actions  

Appearing on WLW
Hi everyone,

Great thread.  I've been invited to appear on WLW tomorrow around 7P to discuss Erardi's article.  Please post or send me any (preferably Reds related) examples that might help illustrate some of the basics.  I definitely want to try to work in park effects, the absurdity of pitcher wins as a measure of quality, and of course, the value of walks and OBA.  I'd also really love a good analogy to make the point of how silly it is to ignore stats ("like running a radio station without looking at the ratings" is the best I have now, but would love ideas you all have).

Thanks,

Greg in Atl

by Greg in Atl on Mar 9, 2008 9:45 PM EDT reply actions  

Congrats, this should be fun.
Running a baseball time while ignoring stats is like being a sportswriter while knowing nothing about sports.

You should bring up BLee's latest Fun With Numbers and specifically Dunn's RBI percentage, though. Yeah.

by Geki on Mar 9, 2008 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

The problem is
all those numbers really don't fly in a radio format. I think Greg should stick to rhetoric. Such as:
"It's the middle of the order's job to drive in runs, not walk."

Answer: "It's everybody's job to score runs. And the best way to do that is for everyone to try to not make outs."

etc  

by Red Menace on Mar 9, 2008 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good luck, Greg!
I'll try to come up with some stuff for you in the morning.
Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Mar 9, 2008 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Talk to Slyde
you: here are some logical reasons for why stats matter in baseball

daugherty: you live in your mom's basement. I win.

by bobestes on Mar 9, 2008 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think you might....
..try to avoid saying things like "it's silly to ignore stats" becuase Doc and others can then say, "Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. Nobody said that anyone shold ignore stats.  Blah blah blah..."  (In fact, Doc states in his column that he believes in "baseball card wisdom" which is his way of saying, "Of course you've gotta consider stats-- AVG, HR, RBI, wins, ERA, saves... these are stats, right?")

Unless you can't resist (or avoid) your WLW appearnce becoming a crossfire of points and counterpoints, you might try to convey that there are universally acknowledged simple "counting stats" that do an okay job of putting a value on a player's past body of work but do not necessarily do the best job at predicting future performance.  I really like the aforementioned column by Joe Posnaski.  He's being honest and earnest about how every fan has their own way to appreciate the game but he's perhaps not 100% free of left-handed compliments:

"I think to a large degree it's great and romantic to watch baseball your whole life the way you watch it when you are 12 years old. You don't have to study baseball to enjoy it; you don't have to strive for a deeper understanding to appreciate the game.

I think this might be Joe's thanking dear old Dad for teaching his ten middle school son the undeniable humor of a well-timed fart, while acknowledging that in later years when the boy starts meeting and hanging with some cool ninth-graders he might discover Life of Brian and unfortunately, Dad just might not get it.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Mar 9, 2008 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was looking at Bakers record
in 1993, and 2004 his teams colapsed at the end of season, including losing a 10 game lead in the NL west in 1993.  To me it is the job of a manager to keep the ship afloat in September.  In 1998 the Giants lost a won game playoff to the Cubs.  I feel like he can't hold a team togeather down the stretch.
The Dusty path to the World Series! (This is not an endorsement.)

by justin0070000 on Mar 9, 2008 10:12 PM EDT reply actions  

All that said ...
I think Daugherty has a point. There's far more to this game than numbers. For one thing, it's a manager's ability to intimidate a player, as Baker did today with Belisle. That matters a whole lot, and there's no number to measure it.

by Billingsfan on Mar 9, 2008 10:20 PM EDT reply actions  

his ability to seduce his starting pitcher?
I see what you are getting at.  Joe Torre was never a great "stratagest" but he kept that team togeather in all the craziness of New York + Steinbrenner.  But as I said right above it seems that when the times get tough on Dusty's teams they fold up.  2004 was a disastor.  He didn't seem to do anything to steady that team.  Remember that one time Kent Mercker called Steve Stone in the middle of the game, because he found out Steve Stone said less than nice things about his screaming at an opposing player?  Then instead of stopping it there, Baker let Kent Mercker scream at Steve Stone on the team flight, and tried to get him banned from the team charters.  I really don't think Steve Stone lost those games, if the Cubs were relying on Steve Stone, they were in a lot of trouble, he blew his arm out in the early 80's, and just doesn't have the velocity or break he once had.  At the end of the day he ran Stone and Chip Caray out of town.  Dusty Baker should have told Mercker that it doesn't matter what the announcers say, that he needs to worry about pitching.  His inability to play the best 8 players in the best order is just apart of his short coming as a manager.
The Dusty path to the World Series! (This is not an endorsement.)

by justin0070000 on Mar 9, 2008 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Certainly
And even a guy like Bill James would admit that. No one proposes that the game is managed by numbers alone.

However, Daugherty's approach is to say "all that stuff is nerdy bullshit", which is a little... dumb.

by bobestes on Mar 9, 2008 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Of course
and nobody says otherwise.  Red Menace, for one, has claimed several times that he would be a terrible manager because living in one's basement does not prepare one for dealing with people on a day-to-day basis.  Or something like that.

I'm all for Dusty being a rah-rah, motivate your players kind of manager.  And I don't discount that he has good qualities as a manager.  He has lots of success on his record, though I don't give him overriding credit for that as Daugherty seems to (I mean, Dusty did just happen to manage one of the greatest offensive players the game has ever seen).   But I do believe that much of what I've heard talk about strategy-wise is flat wrong.  

Does that mean that he can't be successful?  No, but it doesn't help a team that will need everything to go right in order to be competitive this year.

Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Mar 9, 2008 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

actually
I've been practicing quite a bit whenever I encounter people. Today the nice guy at the Wendy's drive thru asked me how I was and I said great. After he took my order I tried to talk a little more with him, but it didn't go so well and I retreated to eat my Baconator back below ground in front of the computer.

Tomorrow I'll try going to a Starbucks. Those people are usually pretty friendly and I might get a little back and forth conversation in.

by Red Menace on Mar 9, 2008 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

You might try this:
Block. Tackle. Win.
Two Dunns enter, but only one Dunn leaves...unless neither do because they decide to hunt, play cards, drink and fish. -Slyde

by Man Mountain on Mar 10, 2008 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

I have read Bill James ...
Anyone who reads him will find a lot more than numbers - a real love of the game, which we all share here. Daugherty is flat out wrong about that. He's also wrong about the numbers not having significant importance - they are abstractions of reality. Smart people know how to read them, sense when to discount or emphasize them.

But I took comfort in the fact the Dusty has a psychic presence on the team that gives them reason to try harder, as Belisle did today. Sort of reminded me of Jack Nicholson in the Departed, except that he didn't whack his pitching arm with a work boot.

by Billingsfan on Mar 10, 2008 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

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