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Reds sign Patterson, Hairston

Ol Dusty's veteran fetish has been scratched. At least they aren't major league deals.  So do either of these clowns make the team? And now I'll just ramble a bit more about how Dusty loves him some veterans!

From the Reds:

Tonight the Reds signed to minor league contracts and invited to Major League spring training camp OF Corey Patterson and IF Jerry Hairston Jr.

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yeah
they'll make the team. Patterson will be the regular CF before June 1.  Disgusting.

by eddroush on Mar 3, 2008 7:21 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I had the same reaction
Is this what Baker meant when he said he was talking to players about Cincinnati?

I guess this furthur decreases Jay Bruces big league chances.  Why when this team already has plenty of extra outfielders in Freel, Hopper, and Dickerson, would they bring in more.  For the good of Reds baseball somebody at Redreporter needs to kidnap Patterson until October.

One wonders where Wayne Krivksy is on the decision making poll.  Not that he didn't have his own veteran fetish, but he didn't have Jocketty jocketting between him and the owner, and he had Jerry Narron and Pete.  Neither a manager with a name.  Baker isn't a yes man like his predascessors, his name and contract give him more pull in the roster decisions, he is probably making more money than Wayne, and has more job security than Wayne. If Cincinnati has another rough year Krivsky may be on his way out, with Jocketty waiting in the wings.  I would like to go on record of saying I am against Walt Jocketty.  

The Dusty path to the World Series! (This is not an endorsement.)

by justin0070000 on Mar 3, 2008 8:00 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

... Crap...
Corey Patterson is one of the biggest busts I've seen... and Hairston? Oh jeez...
[Insert Witty Phrase Here]

by crolfer on Mar 3, 2008 7:45 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fuck You Wayne. Fuck You Dusty. Fuck You Reds
I'd like to believe they're just "insurance," but the first rule of Reds fandom is knowing that every shitty veteran signing will see more playing time in the bigs than he deserves.

see Womack, Tony; Castro, Juan; Ellison, Jason; Coats, Buck; Mays, Joe...

Two Dunns enter, but only one Dunn leaves...unless neither do because they decide to hunt, play cards, drink and fish. -Slyde

by Man Mountain on Mar 3, 2008 7:55 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ellison, coats
weren't veteran, but you can replace them with Stanton, Cormier. . .

by Brian B on Mar 3, 2008 8:00 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

thought about coats as soon
as I posted. But Wayne's explanation of the Ellison pickup at the time was that he'd been around, knew how to handle himself like a pro, blah blah blah.

It won't matter that Patterson is 28, he'll be defended as a guy who's experienced and can come in and compete and show the younger guys how it's done. Mark my words.

Two Dunns enter, but only one Dunn leaves...unless neither do because they decide to hunt, play cards, drink and fish. -Slyde

by Man Mountain on Mar 3, 2008 8:06 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

& Fuck You Bob!!!!
Core dude - Dustbag's core is not the core that is the core.

by Madville on Mar 3, 2008 9:13 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

fuck
Patterson is worse than Reggie Taylor. Both corey and Jerry Jr. will make the team a d get playing time. What a taking so long to get other out machines like Neifi Perez and Juan Pierre? Cubs fans are laughing their asses off at us right now.

by Brian B on Mar 3, 2008 7:56 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dude... Reggie Taylor could run 90 ft in 3.5
If he just bunted every time, the guy woulda hit .750
[Insert Witty Phrase Here]

by crolfer on Mar 3, 2008 8:04 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Unnecessary. Disappointing.
Unnecessarily disappointing.
Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Mar 3, 2008 7:59 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Expanding
The Reds just signed a player who has a .271 slugging percentage over the last two seasons, which barely tops his .260 on base percentage.  That's a 38 OPS+.  No way Hairston makes the team.  No way.

As for Patterson, he has a .291 OBP over the last 3 seasons.  If he even sniffs the lead-off spot, I'll be pissed.

Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Mar 3, 2008 8:06 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well... OPB is overrated according to Dirtface...
Or Dusty or whatever his name is.
[Insert Witty Phrase Here]

by crolfer on Mar 3, 2008 8:08 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dustbobdranopants
Core dude - Dustbag's core is not the core that is the core.

by Madville on Mar 3, 2008 9:14 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Link
http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/redsinsider/2008/03/reds-sign-patterson-hairston.asp

Any bets he's batting lead off on opening day? Let me rephrase that, any bets he won't be batting lead off on opening day?

Two Dunns enter, but only one Dunn leaves...unless neither do because they decide to hunt, play cards, drink and fish. -Slyde

by Man Mountain on Mar 3, 2008 8:01 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Patterson?
leadoff or second behind Hairston.

by Brian B on Mar 3, 2008 8:04 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

awesome!!!!
these dudes are cool and fast and good!

PSHYCH!!!!

Im Charlie Scrabbles and I approve this blogpost.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 3, 2008 8:03 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but honestly
i yawned when i read this.  biggest non-suprise since the time i got super contra for my birthday.  dustyshitforbrains looked around and said "we need a SS with a glove and corey patterson" and he got his wish.  i feel like we've all be staring at the meteor barrelling straight at us for the past few weeks and it just hit us in our collective Red faces.  i tell you though, i figured it would be well into May before i started feeling these annual pangs of dread.  so i am surprised at that.
Im Charlie Scrabbles and I approve this blogpost.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Mar 3, 2008 8:16 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Chicago in 2003 all over again
A team coming off a down period, with alot of young talent capable of putting it togeather and go on a good run.  Maybe we will see a playoff berth this year, but we will see Bailey or EV traded for more vetaran pressence, Cueto and the one not traded above will have 1 great season, and decline, and by 2010 will be cooked.  Votto's skills will decay as he sits on the bench behind Hatteberg, Dickerson, Patterson, Hopper, and Freel will all be on the depth chart above Bruce, Dunn will leave for free agency, (much to Marty's, tHom's, and Docs delight because he is the reason this team hasn't had a winning record since 2000, he single handedly forced the Reds to make bad decisions, and also went out and personally hit Ty Howinging, Chris Gruellers, Bobby Bashams, Josh Hall, and Seth Etherton repetivly in their pitching arm with a sledge hammer, but he missed each one 220 out of 550 swings, and he talked Jeremey Sowers out of coming to Cincinnati) and Cincinnati will go after Carl Crawford, or somebody else who is fast but won't replace Dunn's power.  Watch next year have an outfield of Freel, Hopper, Patterson, Dickerson, with Jay Bruce languishing in AAA.  Josh Fogg will keep getting starts despite his 5+ ERA because he is a veteran and it takes veterans a while to come around.  Mean while Bailey, Cueto, EV, Maloney, and Gardner will make up the best rotation in the International League, if not all of AAA. Marty and tHom will cause 12 strokes.  
The Dusty path to the World Series! (This is not an endorsement.)

by justin0070000 on Mar 3, 2008 8:37 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

only 12 strokes?
[Insert Witty Phrase Here]

by crolfer on Mar 3, 2008 8:44 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

each per month
until eventually Marty simply gets so angry at Adam Dunn for hitting a 2 run home run instead of a sac fly, and he self combusts.
The Dusty path to the World Series! (This is not an endorsement.)

by justin0070000 on Mar 3, 2008 8:48 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I really really like this
...because he is a veteran and it takes veterans a while to come around. I love it, if i knew how to do a lil' line at the end of all my posts that would be it.

by The Crushinator on Mar 3, 2008 9:28 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hairston I have no use for.
I expect the Reds won't either. As for Patterson, I'm not a fan of him, but I'm not as down about this signing as some, depending upon his role.

I know, Patterson can't take a walk to save his life and his bat doesn't exactly make up for that. When he gets on base, though, he can create some havoc. He has a little pop in his bat. He's around league average defensively. He's just turning 27, that magical year when Darrell Chaney types turn into Babe Ruth clones or some such speculation.

If Patterson is starting in CF and leading off on opening day, I won't be happy. If he's on the ballclub, well, maybe that's OK.

What does bother me is that here we have a former first-round pick who happens to be a supposed "five-tool" OF and Leatherbritches didn't sign him first. That's troubling. Maybe I'm about to talk myself out of liking this. Let's see how it plays out.

We Are ... Marshall!

by Thundering Turtle on Mar 3, 2008 8:15 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dusty is like that teacher
who all of the administrators think is good, and he thinks he is good, and thinks everyone thinks he is good, but his students think he is a fool.

(the fans are the students in that metaphor)

I was willing to be open minded on Dusty, maybe he learned something.  I thought the hiring was lazy by the Reds, considering i don't even think they did a round of interviews.  I wonder if he was Wayne or Bob's idea.  I am guessing Bob's, he wanted to impress the fans (and potential season ticket holders, (have you seen the Bakers dozen pacakage?)) with a big name.  I personally feel that they should have searched for a Rookie manager who has the potential to be a good manager.  They may have found a better/less harmful manager, who costs a helluva lot less, and wouldn't bring in Corey Patterson.

The Dusty path to the World Series! (This is not an endorsement.)

by justin0070000 on Mar 3, 2008 8:16 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I've got a tough lesson for you to learn..
The sad truth is that's just how most people are.  Everyone likes to smile and make nice-nice but the truth is that everything pretty much sucks.

The sooner you learn this and accept it, the sooner you'll start smoking and drinking.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Mar 3, 2008 10:04 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The sad thing is
if crolfer doesn't start smoking and drinking, I will have lost all faith in the power of the internet.
Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Mar 3, 2008 10:06 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Whoa! Whoa. Whoa. Whoa there.
The internet is the only thing that doesn't suck.

Slyde, I know you know this so please.. get a hold of yourself.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Mar 3, 2008 10:20 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I am like that teacher...
As a teacher at a private school in the Dominican Republic I can assure you that the administration doesn't really know a thing about me, I occasionally think I am doing a good job, I often wonder if anyone cares what I am teaching to the kids, and the students most certainly think I am a "gringo loco."

That is to say, if I were the Reds Manager, Krivsky would confuse me for a batboy, the clubhouse manager might occasionally compliment my for punctual arrival at the ballpark, I might occasionally think I am doing a good job, I would often wonder if anyone cared how I filled out the lineup card, and I would field a team compiled completely of Dominicans.

And no, Corey Patterson, would not be on my team. (And not just because he is not Dominican)  

Tanzen!

by Verka Serduchka on Mar 3, 2008 8:57 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Who
is running this team? For serious and stuff...

by eddroush on Mar 3, 2008 10:17 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

THe team is run by committee
The committee=

Big Bob
Jocko
Waynr
Dustbobdrainopants
The taut and stingy corpse of Vet. Baseball reporter - Jack Moran

The sum is less than the whole.

Core dude - Dustbag's core is not the core that is the core.

by Madville on Mar 4, 2008 9:37 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If it matters
Hairston will wear No. 15 and Patterson will wear No. 23

by cesarhernandez on Mar 3, 2008 8:52 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

low numbers for a spring training invitee
who has no prior history with the club.  Most non-roster players have high numbers, that would be changed if the make the club.
The Dusty path to the World Series! (This is not an endorsement.)

by justin0070000 on Mar 3, 2008 8:55 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think the Reds made moves for the Pennant!
That is, for the Cubs or Brewers to win the pennant!!

Muwahahahaha!

What a collection of idiots.

Castellini, Baker and Krivsky.

Larry, Curly and Moe.

This is just about enough to cure me of +40 year of rooting for the Reds.  I thought 1982 was bad, just wait for this year.

Corey Patterson.
Jerry Hairston.

Let that sink in.

I can't wait to see Hopper, Freel and Patterson all in the same outfield some night in Cincinnati.

That should fill up the stands.

And Jay Bruce will rot in the Minors this year.  I wish they HAD traded him for Erik Bedard, because he will be USELESS to the Reds' this year.

What a joke. What a cruel joke, and what a waste of money it is to pay Dusty Baker to run this circus.

Can you say "worse than last year"?
Because they will be worse than last year.

I think it is time to start drinking heavily.

"I guess I picked a bad day to stop sniffing glue!"- Lloyd Bridges

by Lonesome George on Mar 3, 2008 10:27 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Our one chance
Daedalus is in Florida now (I think).  We have to charge her with a sacred quest to kidnap at least two of the group: Corey Patterson, Jerry Hairston, Dusty Baker.  Bind them, gag them, take them in a fan boat out to the middle of the Everglades, and lose them.

Help us, Sister Daedalus.  You're our only hope!

by Brendanukkah on Mar 3, 2008 10:31 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I like the move....
I think everyone who follows the Reds closely knew Bruce would probably be starting the year in AAA. Therefore, it would really come down to a battle between Freel and Hopper for the CF spot. Hopper, whose stats from last year look like those of a fine leadoff type hitter, is by no means a proven commodity. Hopper has exactly 18 more major league extra base hits than I do and is no more than average defensively in CF. Freel on the other hand is coming off major knee surgery and has always been injury prone not to mention a pretty mediocre player even when healthy. Freel and Hoppe are not dynamic leadoff hitters. I'm not by any means saying Patterson is better than either of the two or that he is a dynamic leadoff hitter or even a respectable leadoff hitter. What I am saying is that the difference between Freel, Hopper and Patterson is not really discernable. Patterson though has far more potential than Freel or Hopper. So therefore I see no problem with bringing in a player to "compete" for a roster spot who was once regarded (by the same people who rank Bruce #1) as the best prospect in baseball.

by WayneNarron on Mar 3, 2008 10:37 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Does anyone know..
..why Patterson didn't play past the first week of September last year?  I mean, the Orioles did finish the season, right?

I guess most people are pretty upset right now... But hey, check out this cool thing I learned to do with Corey's 2007 splits!

by Fat Vegas Alan on Mar 3, 2008 10:45 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Woops. I meant...
..to provide another link for his splits.

(The cool thing was in his '07 game logs.  The splits are just Corey Patterson splits. FWIW, he played better in July and August.)

by Fat Vegas Alan on Mar 3, 2008 11:07 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nothing left to do but . . .
 start a Neifi-Watch website . . .

by CablinasianRam on Mar 3, 2008 10:49 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is opening day...
too early for "Fire Dusty" sign?

by xjjeep90 on Mar 3, 2008 11:34 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That would be awesome.
And I think that might be as good of a nickname as any we've come up with: Fire Dusty.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Mar 3, 2008 11:41 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

expounding
fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck Castro  fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck.
Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on Mar 4, 2008 3:09 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

please read aloud
with gusto
Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on Mar 4, 2008 3:11 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

gusto?
Who's gusto?  
2-0 count: one pitch, one zone

by rojosoto on Mar 4, 2008 8:35 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He's not on our roster
he walks too much
Two Dunns enter, but only one Dunn leaves...unless neither do because they decide to hunt, play cards, drink and fish. -Slyde

by Man Mountain on Mar 4, 2008 12:37 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow
Guys you know I love "scrappy" players but this is not a good move!
I Misremember lots of things

by Zach K on Mar 4, 2008 8:42 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

god fucking damnit
if cincinnati signs a player who is so bad Zach doesn't like him, we are in trouble.  It is kinda like a 3AM girl turning you down.
The Dusty path to the World Series! (This is not an endorsement.)

by justin0070000 on Mar 4, 2008 8:46 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A View from a Cubs Fan
Hate to say it but the fun has just begun with Dusty! Last year I really thought the Reds were a scary up and coming team and they still very well may be. I cannot imagine what the hell he wants with Corey Patterson and worse yet........Jerry fuckin Hairston!  You already have better guys than them.......Norris Hopper for example and the up and coming Bruce. Hopefully for the Reds sake Dusty will choke on his toothpick! From a Cubs standpoint I hope to see Corey in CF in May when I visit for 2 games in what I have been told is a wonderful ballpark.

Any suggestions on a reasonably priced hotel to stay in with my 2 11 yr old sons?

Uh oh........Neifi Perez is taking a physical in Reds camp right now!!

by plenz on Mar 4, 2008 10:27 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I've never stayed in a hotel downtown
but I have a friend that stays at the Millenium Hotel every time she comes to town for a game.  I think it's reasonably priced.

There may be some out-of-towners who have better, more experienced suggestions.

Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Mar 4, 2008 10:39 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Better, more-experienced suggestions
Corey Patterson has some!

Seriously, why am I not drunk yet?

by Brendanukkah on Mar 4, 2008 10:41 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Omni Netherland
It is on the National Historic Registry - One of the few original Art Deco hotels. Be sure to dine in the Palm Court, very nice chow.
Core dude - Dustbag's core is not the core that is the core.

by Madville on Mar 4, 2008 9:31 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The best rates are really by the lake
And I know you might have heard that it was called Great American Ball Park, but they recently changed the name to Progressive Field.  Oh, and the pitchers don't bat in our stadium.  Have fun though, it should be a great time for you and your sons!

(/already too many Cubs fans at GABP)

by Brendanukkah on Mar 4, 2008 10:40 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

maybe...........
I'll get to see Patterson in CF, Neifi at SS and Hairston at 2B............would be nostalgic!
How are the seat in..I think its called view level or something....upper deck. Or are bleachers better?

by plenz on Mar 4, 2008 10:50 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes...
because any "girl" who is out at 3am must want sex.  

Try telling that to the judge.

Tanzen!

by Verka Serduchka on Mar 4, 2008 12:30 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This has to be said
Give it a rest already.

So they signed a couple of guys with major league experience to minor league deals.  So what?  It happens all of the time.

Do you know why Dusty has such a bad rep as a manager?  Because of the frikkin' Cubs.  If he'd had a record for any other team like he did with Chicago, people would be falling all over themselves whooping what a great manager he is.  But since he couldn't take the Cubs, and their dirtbag fans, to the World Series, all sorts of things are thrown at him.

Ooooo, he loves his vets!!!  Fact:  While manager of Chicago, the "batting age" of the team (as calculated by bbref.com) dropped every single year; with the exception of 1 year, the "pitching age" was 28 (even with an ancient Maddux getting significant time).  The "batting age" in SF has gone up since he left SF (it was over 33 in '06), while both the batting and pitching ages at Chicago were higher last year than in '06.

Oooo, he destroys young arms!!!  Fact:  Kerry Wood, as a 25 year old, already had pitched 692 innings in the bigs, and had missed an entire season due to injury, before Baker came to Chicago.  Mark Prior had one great year, and started having problems.  Sure, he probably went too deep in 2 or 3 games at the end of the season, but (a) it was only 2 or 3 games; (b) if Baker hadn't used him, and the Flubs lost, the yelping would be greater; and (c) we now know that Prior's mechanics, rather than being "perfect", are now shown to cause early and serious arm injuries.

Barring something surprising happening, this team will be older at 6 (and probably 7) of 8 positions in '08, and it has nothing to do with Baker.  And the bench will be significantly older, too.  Hatteberg, Freel, Stanton, and Castro should have all been gone long before Baker was hired, but the Reds committed significant money to them before he got here.

What really makes me laugh is the hand-wringing over Corey Patterson.  His story is exactly the opposite of the pre-conceived notions about Baker, so now he's being denigrated for having "veteran presence".  Guess what - he's younger than every viable CF option the Reds have right now except for Bruce; he's also the best defensively out of all of them.  And given what happened with Patterson, why are you surprised that Baker would want to hedge his bets a bit with Bruce right now?

I just don't understand you people sometimes.  Josh Hamilton tears up the league and is traded for a guy who's never shown an ability to get major league batters out, and you hail it as a great trade (while Kyle Lohse, who's still sitting out there unsigned, is likely to be much better this year than Volquez); then, when the team has to scramble for a CF, you wail when we give a minor league deal to the best option out there.  And with Jr. always a step away from another DL trip, having another decent OF in the organization is a plus - if he takes Dewayne Wise's job, I won't shed any tears.

just....wow.

by sidnancy on Mar 4, 2008 11:00 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you know exactly why we don't like this trade
I want Bruce to start. That's it. 'veteran presence' is just a funny talking point. I don't care how old Patterson is, I want the best players In the lineup, and patterson signing virtually assures us that won't happen. He's not taking the place of dewayne wise, he's taking the place of jay Bruce.

As far as Hamilton, I don't think anyone hailed it as a great trade. Most of us were sad to see him go but realized it was a decent time to sell because of his significant injury risk. Plus we had Bruce, but now we don't. We have corey Patterson

Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on Mar 4, 2008 11:21 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This is what I'm talking about
I want the best players In the lineup, and patterson signing virtually assures us that won't happen. He's not taking the place of dewayne wise, he's taking the place of jay Bruce...Plus we had Bruce, but now we don't. We have corey Patterson  

That's crap.

First, it's a minor league deal.  If they really were putting his name above Bruce's on the roster, they'd guarantee the money.  They're not, which shows that they don't know what's going to happen.

Twelve months ago, no one imagined that we'd be having a conversation about Bruce being the starter in CF - he'd had zero ABs above low A ball; even now, he's got fewer than 250 ABs above A, and strikes out too much.  He won't turn 21 until just after opening day.  There's no reason to think another couple of months in AAA won't help him.

Jay Bruce will be a star in the league for years to come.  Giving the powers that be an extra month to decide if his time is now, or in 3 months, isn't the end of the world.

One of the national writers said that if the Reds want to win this year, Bruce should be in CF on opening day.  In my mind, they could win the division, but they have about a 0% chance of even making the World Series, let alone winning it, this year.  I'd much rather the Reds make sure Bruce is ready for a run of great Reds teams instead of selling their souls for a division championship this year.

just....wow.

by sidnancy on Mar 4, 2008 11:46 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If the Reds were to win the division..
..it would likely be because Harang, Arroyo and whoever is not Matt Belisle at the third spot will have had good-to-great seasons (along with Burton, Weathers and Cordero in the pen).

If that's gonna happen (it won't) and the Reds are gonna win 85 games (they won't), I'd like to be able to take our chances against the Mets.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Mar 4, 2008 12:22 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

look
I hope I'm wrong and Patterson doesn't start on opening day. Its hard to tell what dusty will do for certain, but my intuition says Patterson. I don't know why you think you need to tell me how to feel about it, but I feel pissed at the prospect of cp starting instead of Bruce, even with the likelihood that it'll be freel or hopper. I was holding out hope that Bruce would kick ass this spring and win the job outright, but this signing makes the prospect of that happening look very bleak to me. I hope I'm wrong. And I understand that you have a different outlook, but I don't feel the need to tell you your opinion is "crap".
Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on Mar 4, 2008 1:19 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Let me rephrase
What I think is "crap" is that Patterson was signed to be the starting CF.  I think Baker, and the rest of the brain trust, think like you and I do - that they'd rather see Bruce win the job.  If they really thought they HAVE to have a CF, they would have caved in to Lofton's demand for a major-league deal instead of signing Patterson.
just....wow.

by sidnancy on Mar 4, 2008 4:05 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

to add to your Hamilton comment
not only was Hamilton an injury risk, he could fall of the wagon any day.  I hope he doesn't, but there is a very real possibility that he will.  I am guessing if that happens he will be finished with baseball and possibly life.  I just want to add that I am not predicting he will fall of the wagon, just that he could.  Plus he wanted Johnny Narron, but the Reds didn't, so trading him to Texas where the Narron brothers are working, and have a history was to his benifit.  EV has tremendous upside, and seems close to putting it all togeather.  

Personally I would not have traded Hamilton, and let Bruce spend much of this season, except when injury called and September, polishing himself in AAA, (he is only 20 so it isn't likely that his skills will erode from an extra year in the minors) extend Dunn, and have an outfield of Dunn, Hamilton, Bruce in 2009.  But I do see the reasoning behind the trade, and I understand why it happened.

The Dusty path to the World Series! (This is not an endorsement.)

by justin0070000 on Mar 4, 2008 11:46 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The problem
with signing Patterson is how he's likely to be used.  Dusty's been harping about the lack of a true leadoff guy for the past few weeks, and now he has at his disposal a guy with an abysmal OBP who mostly batted leadoff or second for Dusty in Chicago.  As flawed as Freel and Hopper are, they're much better suited to leadoff.  

Of course, the other problem is who Patterson is blocking.  This is a winnable division, and starting Bruce helps us the most.  Whether doing so stunts his growth is debatable, but if that's what they were worried about I would've held onto Hamilton.  

by ken on Mar 4, 2008 11:54 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

c'mon sid
I'm not going to get into most of what you wrote because I don't think it's relevant to the Patterson signing, at least from my perspective, but I wanted to look at your last paragraph.

Josh Hamilton tears up the league and is traded for a guy who's never shown an ability to get major league batters out, and you hail it as a great trade

I quickly perused the thread from the day of the trade, and I have a hard time finding anyone who thinks it was a great trade.  I think the general theme was "I'm not happy about it, but at least they got back someone with some upside."  Plus, as boobs said the upside was supposed to be an open spot for Bruce.

when the team has to scramble for a CF, you wail when we give a minor league deal to the best option out there.

Why did the team have to scramble?  How is Patterson that much of an upgrade over the players already in house?  Frankly, I trust Freel and Hopper's ability to get on base a lot more than Patterson.  And you know with Dusty, whoever is playing from those three is batting lead-off.  I'd definitely rather either of the other two in that spot than Patterson.

And if Patterson was the best option available, so what?  That doesn't make him a good player.  Over the last three seasons, these are the players with the worst OPS+ (min 1200 PAs):
 Cnt Player            OPS+   PA  From  To
+----+-----------------+----+-----+----+----+
    1 Adam Everett        65  1397 2005 2007
    2 Brad Ausmus         67  1350 2005 2007
    3 Yadier Molina       69  1278 2005 2007
    4 Nick Punto          70  1499 2005 2007
    5 Royce Clayton       71  1291 2005 2007
    6 Aaron Miles         72  1267 2005 2007
    7 Miguel Olivo        76  1202 2005 2007
    8 Corey Patterson     76  1482 2005 2007
    9 Craig Counsell      78  1419 2005 2007
   10 Jason Kendall       78  1816 2005 2007

There are some bad hitters on that list.  Outside of Everett and Molina for their defense, would you want any of them on the Reds?

As for the minor league deal, all that means is that they don't have to guarantee him money yet.  It doesn't mean that he won't make a couple million if he makes the team.  Obviously, there is no sense in speculating on the amount of money, but my point is that it's only a low-risk deal if they decide not to keep him.

And with Jr. always a step away from another DL trip, having another decent OF in the organization is a plus - if he takes Dewayne Wise's job, I won't shed any tears.

boobs already touched on this one, but I wanted to point out that I find it very unlikely that Patterson will actually spend any time in the minors.  I could be wrong, but I expect him to make the team and start in CF and lead-off 3-4 times a week.  I don't see it as adding depth to the outfield.  I see it as adding a bad player to the lineup, and that's why I don't like it.

Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Mar 4, 2008 12:09 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Like I said...
If the choice was Corey Patterson leading off and soaking up 400 AB this year versus a third catcher like Chad Moeller stinking up our roster, I would take the third catcher, since it wouldn't be as big of a delta between the optimal and the actual.
At least it wasn't Grady Little.

by Paul Householder on Mar 4, 2008 12:59 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't get it.
As for the minor league deal, all that means is that they don't have to guarantee him money yet.  It doesn't mean that he won't make a couple million if he makes the team.  Obviously, there is no sense in speculating on the amount of money, but my point is that it's only a low-risk deal if they decide not to keep him.

No, what it means is he hasn't made the team yet.  Again - Baker gets bashed for rushing Patterson, then when the Reds pick Patterson up as insurance against Bruce not being ready, it's a bad thing?

How is Patterson that much of an upgrade over the players already in house?

He's much less of an injury risk than Freel; he's better defensively and a better baserunner than either Freel or Hopper; while he doesn't get on base as much, he's probably no worse overall offensively than Freel.  Plus, because of Griffey, the Reds really need an extra outfielder, so even if he's no better than Hopper or Freel, he'd be a good short-term addition to the team.

Over the last three seasons, these are the players with the worst OPS+ (min 1200 PAs):

Nice end points.  Over the past 2 seasons, he has a higher OPS+, and stolen more bases at a higher percentage, than Freel.  But you can only make your point with that 3rd season.  

Baker isn't the perfect manager (who, besides me, is?), but I just think people see all of these ulterior motives when the facts might just speak for themselves:  Baker, until a couple of weeks ago, had never seen Bruce (a 20 year old with 250 ABs above low-A) play; just in case he isn't ready, the Reds sign a guy with major league experience to a minor-league deal.

They're guaranteeing money to Jeremy F. Affeldt, and promising him a chance to start, and you're worked up about Corey Patterson getting a spring training invite.  I know he isn't the answer out there; I also know what Bruce should become.  I just refuse to get too worked up about signing this player to this team at this time - he could prove useful and inexpensive.

just....wow.

by sidnancy on Mar 4, 2008 1:36 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just to be clear
I never mentioned Bruce.  I'm not upset about him starting in Louisville, though I do believe that if the Reds are going to be competitive this year, he needs to be in CF.  I understand the risk of dropping a 20-year old in Majors before he's ready, so I can understand the desire to be cautious.  It's not what I would do if I'm trying to win now, but I understand it.

Plus, because of Griffey, the Reds really need an extra outfielder, so even if he's no better than Hopper or Freel, he'd be a good short-term addition to the team.

I had come to consider Bruce as that extra outfielder.  I figured he'd start in Louisville and once someone got injured, he'd be brought in to see how he'd do in a lower pressure situation.  If he fails, then hopefully the injured player will be back soon.  Now it seems more likely that if Griffey goes down, the outfield will have both Patterson and Fropper in it.  That's not good.

Nice end points.  Over the past 2 seasons, he has a higher OPS+, and stolen more bases at a higher percentage, than Freel.  But you can only make your point with that 3rd season.

To be fair, the previous 3 years is almost always what I look at when discussing a player coming to the team.  So, it's not like I picked those three just to make my case stronger.  And it's also not like his OPS+ of 87 over the last 2 years suddenly turns him into a good player.

They're guaranteeing money to Jeremy F. Affeldt, and promising him a chance to start, and you're worked up about Corey Patterson getting a spring training invite.

Well, I'm not really "worked up" about it.  Just because I don't like the move doesn't mean I'm tying a noose.  I'm just tired of the Reds making lateral moves under the guise of providing competition.  I was looking forward to a team with a little youthful vigor, but it's feeling more like the last two seasons.  (And I'm not just talking about Patterson at this point)  I guess I'm just more willing to watch the team fail because of youth than fail because of talent.  We've been watching the latter for too long now.

Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Mar 4, 2008 2:05 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Optimism
I had come to consider Bruce as that extra outfielder.  I figured he'd start in Louisville and once someone got injured, he'd be brought in to see how he'd do in a lower pressure situation.  If he fails, then hopefully the injured player will be back soon.  Now it seems more likely that if Griffey goes down, the outfield will have both Patterson and Fropper in it.

Over the past couple of years, I've been quite the naysayer on this site - I hated The Trade; I questioned the Hobbs trade; I predicted either 70 or 72 wins (I forget which) last season.  Because, for past 7 years they've made so many bad moves, I've come to expect more of them.

But I don't get the same general feeling now.  Some of the right pieces are falling into place - Votto has shown his ability; I think EdE is progressing; Bailey, Cueto and Bruce are thisclose.

I really get the feeling that Votto will start, with Hatteberg used as a PH.  I also really get the feeling that Bruce will go to Louisville so he can play every day, and get called up to start if there is an injury.  I would much rather have him starting 5X a week in AAA than 2-3X in the bigs, and I get the feeling the Reds feel the same way - alot of what Dusty's said has hinted at that.

I'm not 100% convinced that Bruce is ready, but I am convinced that Fropper starting in CF is bad.  Patterson will play good defense; he has a chance to hit well (at least a better chance than Freel); he's awfully cheap insurance against Bruce not being major-league ready April 1.

I'll tell ya, I'm more concerned about Krivsky putting pressure on Baker to use Affeldt/Fogg/Volquez than in Baker's use of the position players.  There's no reason to believe (other than the drunken mutterings of Flubs fans) that Baker doesn't know what he's doing - look at his record.

just....wow.

by sidnancy on Mar 4, 2008 2:37 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was more optimistic a month ago
before I saw the plan start to be put into motion.  My brain has never expected them to win it this year, but my heart had other ideas and was speaking a lot louder in January.  Now my brain is starting to come back to life and it's depressing my heart.  Stupid brain.
Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Mar 4, 2008 4:20 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hey...
But what's your response to Slyde's point that you mischaracterized this site's reaction to the Hamilton-Volquez deal?

You kind of ignored that point, which was sort of the underpinning of your "this site is too negative/cynical" post to begin with...

At least it wasn't Grady Little.

by Paul Householder on Mar 4, 2008 2:26 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I stand corrected
on the amount of enthusiasm for that trade; I remembered it as a Krivskyish "that's what we need to give up for a good SP".

But my point wasn't "this site is too negative/cynical"; it was that the Reds gave up their best option in CF for a SP with lots of potential but no real success to back it up, then when they try to do something to cover their losses, everyone wails.

Not signing a ML-ready OF only compounds the Hamilton trade in my opinion.

just....wow.

by sidnancy on Mar 4, 2008 2:46 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks for admitting that.
That's what separates an opinionated person (which you are, but which I appreciate) from Michael or ctownboy, etc. (whom I don't like).

I think the point here is not so much that Corey Patterson in the abstract is good or bad.  In the end, if he is used properly (pinch runner, defensive replacement, etc.), he is probably better than the third catcher.  The problem is, given EnDusty's track record with him, it seems fairly likely that he will wind up batting leadoff for a good portion of the season (which is the result of EnDusty's lack of comprehension of OBP).  I would love to be wrong about this and have him on the bench being used properly, but I think I'd rather see Freel and Hopper lead off than Corey Patterson.

I think you're right that Hamilton's departure created an offensive hole in CF pending Jay Bruce's arrival.  It is just that I would rather have helped plug the hole with a guy like Kenny Lofton (who actually does get on base and therefore create runs) and is less able to be abused by EnDusty than Corey Patterson.  Where Corey Patterson and his .300 or so OBP does not belong in the leadoff spot, I can handle having Lofton (who will be perceived by EnDusty as a "speed guy" who should bat leadoff) in the leadoff spot, with his .350-.380 OBP.

Giving Corey Patterson to EnDusty is like giving an end-stage skid-row alcoholic a bottle of denatured alcohol.  Yes, you're giving it to him so he can sterilize surgical instruments, but there is a very good chance he is going to abuse it and drink it until he goes blind.

At least it wasn't Grady Little.

by Paul Householder on Mar 4, 2008 3:48 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Like I just replied above...
I think this proves my point about the plans:

It is just that I would rather have helped plug the hole with a guy like Kenny Lofton (who actually does get on base and therefore create runs) and is less able to be abused by EnDusty than Corey Patterson.  Where Corey Patterson and his .300 or so OBP does not belong in the leadoff spot, I can handle having Lofton (who will be perceived by EnDusty as a "speed guy" who should bat leadoff) in the leadoff spot, with his .350-.380 OBP.

I think they signed Patterson because they want Bruce to win the job, and didn't want to commit a major league deal to Lofton.

just....wow.

by sidnancy on Mar 4, 2008 4:07 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh, and I forgot..Don't give me too much credit
Thanks for admitting that

When presented with the blue dress, it's tough to debate what the definition of "is" is.

just....wow.

by sidnancy on Mar 4, 2008 4:09 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

aye
and yet there are still those who will debate the existence of the blue dress, even while they where it.
Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Mar 4, 2008 4:15 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

*wear
That's it.  No more tequila shots during work.
Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Mar 4, 2008 4:21 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Royce Clayton?
Hey, the Reds need a SS and if Royce is available, then maybe ... well, it sure would take the spotlight off the Patterson signing, now wouldn't it?
We Are ... Marshall!

by Thundering Turtle on Mar 4, 2008 4:43 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow Sid - I don't think very many RRs
hailed the Josh Hamilton Trade as a great move, in facr most of the posts were at best skeptical...I would never have given up Hobbs for the'new guy - what's his name'. I want Bruce to be given a shot at CF, not Fropper or Patterson or Dickerson. When Griffey goes down with another injury we'll all be nodding our heads at the stupidity of trading Roy.
Core dude - Dustbag's core is not the core that is the core.

by Madville on Mar 4, 2008 9:38 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed--no need to freak out
Although the Reds have a lot of good young talent--it has to be developed properly and smartly. The last thing we want is Jay Bruce to hit the FA market at the age 26, before he has peaked as a player. Patterson isn't "blocking him"--Patterson allows us to have some depth in CF until they call up Bruce in June.

What will most likely happen is that Patterson and Hopper will platoon in center, with Patterson also serving to spell Griffey from time to time--if memory serves, he gets hurt--a lot.

It isn't a bad move.

by goffchile on Mar 4, 2008 11:57 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As of this moment
this trade isn't a bad move.

But looking at the Reds and Dusty Baker, I just do not trust them to use Corey Patterson responsibly--as a pinch runner/late innings defensive replacement. He really doesn't give the Reds much of anything they need as a pinch hitter either.

If he makes the big club, he'll probably end up starting. If he starts, he'll probably be 1 or 2 in the lineup.

He has to become a completely different offensive player for that to be anything but a negative.

Two Dunns enter, but only one Dunn leaves...unless neither do because they decide to hunt, play cards, drink and fish. -Slyde

by Man Mountain on Mar 4, 2008 12:48 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So...
..you don't trust Dusty to answer the Reds phone at 3am?

by Fat Vegas Alan on Mar 4, 2008 3:38 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

as much as I trust Walter Mondale
The Dusty path to the World Series! (This is not an endorsement.)

by justin0070000 on Mar 4, 2008 4:01 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I do
if it's the secret Canadian Trade Agency bat phone ringing.
Two Dunns enter, but only one Dunn leaves...unless neither do because they decide to hunt, play cards, drink and fish. -Slyde

by Man Mountain on Mar 4, 2008 5:44 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Things (I Don't) Remember
I'm definitely not happy about Hairston and I'm very apprehensive about Patterson. All of my opinions have already been stated (but, as always, more eloquently). It was strange, I seemed to have memories of Patterson coming up big against the Reds. In checking his splits he seemed to do pretty well against the Reds but nothing too massive. He seemed to play really well against HOU. Still, according to my calculations (aka fingers and toes), Patterson has an OPS of .702 within the NL Central.

by RiverfrontDave on Mar 4, 2008 4:28 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Go Reds!
Red Reporter- Because every Reds fan needs a place to overreact.

by jacob brumfield on Mar 4, 2008 5:29 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Can we trade Dusty for a PTBNL?
You can't have manslaughter without laughter

by crolfer on Mar 4, 2008 9:28 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Putz to be named later...
Core dude - Dustbag's core is not the core that is the core.

by Madville on Mar 4, 2008 9:43 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sounds good to me...
Especialy if the Putz happens to be JJ.
You can't have manslaughter without laughter

by crolfer on Mar 4, 2008 9:47 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

*especially...
You can't have manslaughter without laughter

by crolfer on Mar 4, 2008 9:47 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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