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Sabernomics and Social Change

In addition to thinking a lot about baseball, I also spend a lot of time thinking about and working towards social change. I would like to share some insights about sabermetrics, the scientific method, and thinking critically about our economic system.  Let me know if this makes any sense.

I am not a stat head (yet), but I do fully understand that the power of the scientific method is to systematically analyze past events so that accurate predictions can be made about the future. The reason sabermetrics work so well is that baseball is a rule based game, and as a result of these rules, easily identifiable patterns emerge: the pitcher starts a play by stepping on the rubber and tossing the ball (usually) towards home plate; the batter has three strikes or four balls to try to hit the ball in play and run towards first; certain events result in creating outs.  Baseball, in this way, becomes like a natural system where predictable things happen.  Scientific analysis, great at making predictions about natural systems regulated by natural laws, thus can also make accurate predictions about the cultural system of baseball regulated by its cultural rules.

I think understanding why we can use stats to predict what will happen in baseball is also telling when it comes to understanding our relationship to the economic system we live in.  In many ways we treat our current economic reality like a natural system, for example, a tropical storm moving across the Caribbean, and not a cultural system, for example, our beloved game of baseball.  I would argue, however, that economics and baseball are very similar in that they are both cultural systems guided by human made rules.  Right now it is the general cultural rule to only invest when profit can be made.  Right now, it is the general cultural rule that people with resources can choose what they want to do with them.  So right now, we have a global economic culture that tends not to invest many resources in places where profit cannot be made.  As a consequence, we have a lot of poverty in this world and not a whole lot being done about it.  

Economics, however, is not a natural system like a tropical storm.  Economics, in fact, is a cultural system like baseball.  Just as "sabermetricians" can use stats to predict what about baseball, economists can use data to predict what will happen in the global economy.  For example, if we raise taxes on businesses to provide healthcare and quality public education for everyone, less profit will be made.  Making less profit, most businesses will follow the rules of the game and take their money someplace else (China, Latin America, etc.) where they can make more.   Just as Slyde or Greg would tell you that Corey Patterson batting first everyday will probably lead to less run production in the Reds lineup, most economists would tell you that taxes are bad because they will probably lead to businesses leaving your country.

While both economics and baseball can be measured and predicted like weather patterns, they are both cultural systems.  Economics as we know it was created by humans and is continually perpetuated by humans.  It can be recreated with new rules that help to meet everyone's needs.  

As for baseball, I'm pretty happy leaving it the way it is.

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Nice post
This isn't relevant to what you're saying, but it reminded me of a Michael Lewis piece last year about betting on natural disasters.  Moneyball meets weather.

by ken on Mar 12, 2008 2:55 PM EDT reply actions  

Congrats Slyde on another off spring
Interesting post.
Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds

by Caleb on Mar 12, 2008 3:19 PM EDT reply actions  

Don't start blaming this on me
It's Bill James's fault!

Good post, Verka.  I've just started trying to learn more about economics, though not in a studious or scientific fashion.  I'm more of a philosopher than a scientist, though I like as much evidence as possible to help lead my thought.

Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Mar 12, 2008 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

In America
first you get the sugar, then you get the money, then you get the power.

and then the next version of excel

Two Dunns enter, but only one Dunn leaves...unless neither do because they decide to hunt, play cards, drink and fish. -Slyde

by Man Mountain on Mar 12, 2008 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Slyde
The man to check out is Milton Friedman.  During my 4+ years of studying econ I was pummeled with Keynes, econometrics, and studying why things like Britain banning/ putting heavily tariffs on textiles imports to save jobs thwarted the industrial revolution for a hundred years.  Globilisation is a comin' and we should embrace it.  Also, my suggestions that Friedman wrote are "Free To Choose" (sounds like a pro-choice novel but it isn't) and "Freedom and Capitalism."  These are great philosophical economics books if that's the type you would prefer.

Another great philosophical book The Travels of a T-Shirt in the Global Economy by Pietra Rivoli.  She doesn't necessarily take sides and explains what's going on globally.

And now I feel like Lavar Burton for suggesting books. Reading Rainbow Red Reporter.

by buckeye22fox on Mar 12, 2008 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Arrgg... Chicago
Yes, Friedman is in many ways responsible for economics as we know them today.  And he is, big gasp, from Chicago.

A book came out recently that really takes his approach to economics to task called The Shock Doctrine.  It is a very left leaning critique of putting people over profit and why that often results in death, torture, and displacement.  It is not perfect, but it is a good place to start looking at the problems of our economic system.

As for "globalization is a comin," again, economics is not like the weather.  It is only "a comin" because we have not worked together to make something else happen instead.

Tanzen!

by Verka Serduchka on Mar 12, 2008 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Friedman is from Brooklyn actually
Chicago by way of profession.

Klein can keep her Canadian citizenship and stay away from American economics.  She adheres to Keynesian theory and time has proven it incorrect and produces at best stagflation.  India after independence installed Keynesian views and South Korea installed free-market more Friedman-type philosophy.  You tell me which one in practice has been vastly superior.  I am convinced all economic ways are evil but it comes down to which system is the least evil for the fewest people and makes everyone have the best overall chance for economic success and freedom.  Activist economists such as Klein look at "All men are created equal" and assume that means equality of outcome when it should not mean that.  Keynesian economics are dead.

Anyhow I was wondering if Major League Baseball did not have the anti-trust exemption, what would the league be like?  It would make for less competition and an inferior product.  Other than that I wouldn't know definite effects.  Lower attendance? Fewer or more teams in a lower level of competition?  Cheaper tickets for fans?  Would there be the new stadiums that exist today?  
 

by buckeye22fox on Mar 12, 2008 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed (sort of)
Keynesianism is dead and Klein's book is flawed for that reason.  That fact does not negate the "evil"-ness" of our current economic system that she describes very well, even from here vantage point up north.

I do disagree, however, that all economic systems are evil.  We just haven't found the one(s) that work(s) for everyone yet.

And yes, Friedman is not really from Chicago.  It was just that- "and he is from, big gasp, the Chicago School of Economics"- didn't quite fit the Cubs bashing sentiment I was going for.

Tanzen!

by Verka Serduchka on Mar 12, 2008 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

"Keynesian economics are dead"
An interesting turn of phrase considering one of Keynes' well-known phrases is "in the long run, we're all dead." Was he being meaningful or merely flippant? A lot has been made of that off the cuff response, but it seems to me that Keynesian economics aren't really dead, whether they ought to be or not. A good portion of the upper-middle class and upper class approve of a Keynesian economic model with respect to federal and state government's role in the flow of capital. To wit, the so-called "death-tax" pushed for by luminaries such as Bill Gates and co a few years ago strikes me as rather Keynesian.

I deal with Keynes in my research almost exclusively as a cultural figure within Bloomsbury rather than as an economist, but I've encountered Klein as a champion of Keynes, all the while playing fast and loose with his writings. I have two close friends who are economists--one in academia and one doing consulting for green development in Georgia--neither thinks much of Klein as an idea person. The academic thinks she gets the situation with 2005 Tsunami exactly wrong.

Apparently, her Q&A with Alan Greenspan a few months ago revealed that she didn't even have a basic understanding of how the Fed worked. I didn't see it, however, so I don't know if that's accurate.

I am sympathetic to Klein's ideas, but in my very little experience of her work she strikes me as unconvincing. I'd be interested in hearing what more expert econ/polisci people think of The Shock Doctrine.

Two Dunns enter, but only one Dunn leaves...unless neither do because they decide to hunt, play cards, drink and fish. -Slyde

by Man Mountain on Mar 12, 2008 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

via wiki
The Shock Doctrine has received positive reviews from the Dow Jones Business News [1], The New York Times[2], and The Guardian[3].

It has also received negative reviews and strong criticisms from economists such as Tyler Cowen[4] and Anders Åslund. [5] The book's depiction of Russia under Yeltsin is disputed by Slate Journalist Fred Kaplan.[6]

by buckeye22fox on Mar 12, 2008 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Open Letter To Naomi Klein
I wont post any of the letter here again (I have already posted the beginning below) but I have recently finished writing a critique of The Shock Doctrine that explains more thoroughly this idea of economic rules, what I think is wrong with Klein's analysis, and what approach would be affective to changing our current economic system.  Here again is the link where you can download that letter if you like:

http://download.yousendit.com/6F8C97A079776091

Sorry, there is no mention of baseball there.  Musical chairs yes, baseball no.

Tanzen!

by Verka Serduchka on Mar 12, 2008 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Removing the antitrust exemption
would make running the league more difficult.  I briefly explained some of my thoughts here.  I really doubt it would make much of a difference for fans.  Most teams already price tickets at the highest level they can get away with, like any business would.  It's possible that another baseball league could enter the market and compete, but I doubt it (e.g., XFL).

by ken on Mar 13, 2008 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

The philsophy of money
Create a product,then create a need, 1st. market the NEED, then the product. Go offshore and produce the product as cheap as you can get away with. Off credit cards e/'rewards' to any one remotely able to read and write, then sell the hell out of the product. Oh first mark up the product (or if you're smart 'the service') about 4 times then give 40% off if the customer uses your credit card. Make sure that the credit card has low intro rates but as soon as any thing remotely seems amiss with your customer's credit THEN crank the rate up to about 23%. Meanwhile use some of your profit to buy a lawyer or two in DC to beat on your congresspersons and bitch like hell if you have to pay any taxes.

Don't forget you are taking the 'risk' so make sure you pay the help as little as possible and keep them part time so you don't have to fuck around with benefits. Finally move your headquarters to Belize or somewhere so you have absolutely no taxes or accountability and scream like a banshee when moderate Republicans talk about reaching across the aisle to help the less fortunate (I.E. lazy fuckin'losers in the projects - you best customers).Ain't that right Sam!

Well that pretty well sums up the American Philosophy of Money.
Thanks you and Good Luck

Core dude - Dustbag's core is not the core that is the core.

by Madville on Mar 12, 2008 4:22 PM EDT reply actions  

So, are you saying that you fear..
..sabermetrics might eventually cause some facet of the rules of baseball to be changed? Or just the off-the-field economics of the game?

Or none of the above?

by Fat Vegas Alan on Mar 12, 2008 4:58 PM EDT reply actions  

Actually...
I am using my keen organizing skills to talk about something pretty unrelated to Reds baseball to a population of people who have gathered to pretty much talk about Reds baseball.

But yes, if we changed the rules of the game of baseball, it is possible that Corey Patterson might actually then become a good leadoff hitter.

Tanzen!

by Verka Serduchka on Mar 12, 2008 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Like
you get a free base for looking good in your uniform?

I've got to get to work on my Tigrmetrics book.

Two Dunns enter, but only one Dunn leaves...unless neither do because they decide to hunt, play cards, drink and fish. -Slyde

by Man Mountain on Mar 12, 2008 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nice post, comrade!
But I think you (or at least the capitalists you portray) are taking a pretty simplistic view of the situation.

Isn't trying to maximize profits today, at any cost, a relatively recent phenomenon?  I didn't study much Econ in college, but I seem to remember reading that even the Robber Barons thought that a certain amount of social justice equalled increased profits in the long run, even if it meant lost profits in the short run.  In other words, while higher taxes would be needed to fund universal health care, they would also look at both lower out of pocket expenses (no more employer-funded health care) and increased productivity (people would go to the doctor when they needed to, not just when they could afford to).

Back in the '80's, everyone bemoaned the fact that the Japanese could make things cheaper than the US, blaming it on the unions (especially their fringe benefits).  What everyone overlooked was that while in the US employers funded health care and retirement, in Japan the government did - lowering the cost of doing business.  How much of the rise in employee conpensation the past 10 or 20 years is increased health care premiums, and how much is actual wage increase?  It's like the worst of both worlds - my boss is spending more to employ me, but I'm not making any more money.

I guess my point is that you're right in that the economy is a cultural system, not a natural one, but I don't see an easy way to change the culture the way you could easily change the rules of baseball.

just....wow.

by sidnancy on Mar 12, 2008 7:46 PM EDT reply actions  

Lets all get together and write a song about
changing the economy and get all the RRs into the studio and create a video. Or we could change how we individually operate/support out businesses.

Oh and don't forget to vote.

Core dude - Dustbag's core is not the core that is the core.

by Madville on Mar 12, 2008 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bloggers of The World Unite!
I would certainly agree that our version of economics today is both very young in the grande scheme of human history, and very short sighted in terms of making money now at the expense of our environment and the general well being of future generations.

With regards to governments paying for healthcare being away to lower the cost of business, my understanding is that the money that governments would be using to pay for healthcare would in a large part being coming from taxes on businesses and corporations.  I don't know much about how Japan pulled it off but I imagine they were making better products than us, and, like Sweden for a short period of time, this allowed them to have large profits and a high tax base to support healthcare and lots of government social spending.  

Due to the fact that this particular economic system must continually expand with each production cycle, corporations are forced to continually find ways to cut corners to make profits.  For this reason you have seen jobs moved over seas, and the jobs that do remain in the States are often restructured (made part time, seasonal, or temp labor) so that the company doesn't have to pay high wages or provide quality healthcare and benefits.

You are also right that there is no easy way to change this economic culture.  I would argue, however, that currently one of the biggest obstacles to making this change is the belief that it is possible.

How easy is changing the rules of baseball?  Someone who was baseball conscious during the time of the addition of the DH want to comment on what that process was like?  What are some other major changes to the game?  Raising the mound?  Changing the composure of the ball?  How and why did these come about?

Tanzen!

by Verka Serduchka on Mar 12, 2008 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Scare Tactics?
From the Friedman article you posted:

A more radical reform would, first, end both Medicare and Medicaid, at least for new entrants, and replace them by providing every family in the United States with catastrophic insurance (i.e., a major medical policy with a high deductible). Second, it would end tax exemption of employer-provided medical care. And, third, it would remove the restrictive regulations that are now imposed on medical insurance--hard to justify with universal catastrophic insurance.

This reform would solve the problem of the currently medically uninsured, eliminate most of the bureaucratic structure, free medical practitioners from an increasingly heavy burden of paperwork and regulation, and lead many employers and employees to convert employer-provided medical care into a higher cash wage. The taxpayer would save money because total government costs would plummet. The family would be relieved of one of its major concerns--the possibility of being impoverished by a major medical catastrophe--and most could readily finance the remaining medical costs.

The problem I see with this solution is that it is only a solution for people who can "readily finance the remaining medical costs" not covered by the universal catastrophe covered in Friedman's plan.  I would argue, that contrary to Friedman's belief, "most" people would not be able to "readily finance" their own healthcare coverage.  Obviously, the millions of Americans in poverty would struggle with that, and the millions more who are walking that tight rope between getting by and getting evicted, holding a steady job, and being swallowed alive by financial debt would probably have trouble too.

Also, from an international perspective, the majority of the world is living without formal health care, and access to private medical institutions is usually off limits because it is not affordable.  

I work with an organizing school in the Dominican Republic and the approach we take to meeting healthcare needs in economically poor communities is to focus on the resources that are "readily" available: medicinal plants that grow in the yard that can be made into cough syrup or combined with vaseline to create a decongestant/pain relieving balm.  The goal of the workshop is, of course, not just to make natural medicine, but to learn about and to practice working collectively to solve community problems.  In working together to meet our own needs, we are in essence, creating new rules for our own local economies.  

Economics as we know them will never meet everyone's needs because it is not economics goal to do so.  For that reason, we should work to operate under new rules that will.  

Tanzen!

by Verka Serduchka on Mar 12, 2008 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Socialized health care would be terrible
When Britain and Sweden nationalized health care as a populist move it triggered many basic economic principles.  In the UK, the number of doctors declined, health care costs rose (causing higher taxes), the free market of new medicine was severely restricted, and the fewest number of new hospitals of industrialized nations were built.

It is safe to assume, Britain being the case study, that the same would happen here if health care was nationalized.  That would mean less money for you and I to purchase mlb.tv, attend Reds games, or to pay for internet services so that I can opine here.

Here's a thought: the American Medical Association has an unfair advantage and a monopoly on medicine.  Alternative options are not available on a massive scale.  If somehow we could create competition to the AMA, we could sink health care costs immediately.  That in turn would allow for more people to be covered by health care and allow me to purchase more Reds tickets.

by buckeye22fox on Mar 12, 2008 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed, Again (mostly)
If I have not made it clear, I am not arguing for socialized health care, I am arguing for different rules to guide our economic practices.  

Maybe it was a mistake to bring up Klein's book the way I did.  I have actually spent a great deal of time writing a critique of her book using many of the very criticisms of Keynes that you have brought up here.  

The difference in our thinking, that I am seeing, is that I think alternatives systems can be created on local levels independent of the greater economic context, and these alternatives are worth working toward (Not to mention it is really fun and worthwhile to work collectively with people to solve problems).

To hopefully clarify a bit where I am coming from here is the beginning of an open letter I wrote to Klein:

Dear Naomi Klein,
    I recently finished reading your latest book, The Shock Doctrine.  Your detailed account of the connections between neoliberal economic policy and the use of violent repression, the decline of welfare states, and the rise of corporatized war and disaster capitalism is compelling.  You begin by threading together the recent histories of military brutality in the Southern Cone of South America, union busting in Margaret Thatcher's England, and the Tiananmen Square massacre in China.  Through these histories you make explicit that acts of violent political repression against leftist organizers were not chance occurrences during periods of economic transition.  On the contrary, you show that they were deliberate acts of "shock therapy" used by governments to numb and eliminate those opposed to the implementation of neoliberal policies such as the privatization of public services, the elimination of spending on social programs, and the deregulation of industry wage, safety and environmental standards.
    You continue on to demonstrate the "constricted freedom" of post cold-war governments in Poland, Russia, and South Africa, who, in spite of initial aspirations to build social democratic welfare states, ended up implementing neoliberal economic reforms with disastrous consequences for the majority of their people.  You then bring your analysis of neoliberalism to the United States, describing the rise of the privatized war machine and the parallel emergence of the occupation of Iraq as a profitable market for investments in military technology, homeland security, and the rebuilding of basic infrastructure destroyed by the aforementioned military technology.  Finally, you tie it all together by concluding that the neoliberal economic model, in its thirst for new markets, is now preying upon areas struck by natural disasters to accumulate the profits it desires.  "Disaster capitalism," as you aptly name it, was evident in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina and in Sri Lanka after the tsunami when large numbers of poor people were prevented from returning to their weather damaged homes in order to create lucrative new investment opportunities on the land they previously inhabited.  The scariest part of neoliberalism's trajectory, as you note at the end of your book, is that when war and disaster are profitable enterprises, there are increased incentives to start wars and allow natural phenomena to deteriorate into social catastrophes.      
    To begin, I want to say that I learned a lot from reading your book.  I was continually impressed by your ability to organize complex historical events into easily understandable patterns.  You have clearly demonstrated neoliberalism's historical dependence on political, economic, and physical "shock."  I am writing you, however, because despite my deep appreciation for the work you have done, I also have a major concern. You do a very good job of describing many of the problems that come with neoliberalism, but I am afraid your analysis does not give a good account as to why neoliberal ideas are being implemented in the first place.  Without a clear understanding of why neoliberalism is the policy of choice for many governments and economists today, you are unable to put forward a comprehensive vision for how neoliberalism can be transformed.
     For these reasons, I am concerned that many people will read your book and become motivated to make change, but will not be equipped with the right tools to do so.  I am concerned that without the right tools, these motivated people will continue to focus on pressuring governments and/or economists to make change but will not have much success persuading them to do so.  I am concerned that these motivated people, after not having much success, will start to believe those who say that the fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the Soviet Union prove that free market capitalism is the final stop on the train of economic history.  Moreover, I am concerned that these motivated people, frustrated by their inability to make change, will reluctantly give into the idea that capitalism (and the neoliberal ideology that now accompanies it) is the only way to organize economies after all.
    With these concerns in mind, I would like to make a suggestion.  I would like to suggest that you take a look at another book that maps the rise of neoliberalism in the latter half of the twentieth century.  The book is The Dilemmas of Social Democracies by two Peace Studies Professors at Earlham College, Howard Richards and Joanna Swanger.  Instead of focusing on the violence and repression associated with neoliberal economics, Richards and Swanger focus on rules.  They would argue that your book takes a wrong turn on the second to last page of the introduction when you make the claim that there is no reason that market-based economies are incompatible with decent wages, free health care, and quality public education.  They would say that there is a very good reason that markets and government led social welfare programs do not mix: the basic cultural rules that shape our current economy do not allow them to.  They would explain that until the basic rules of our economy are changed, governments have few options for making economic policies that serve the needs of all of their people.  
    Fearing that people might understand this to mean that capitalism is here to stay, Richards and Swanger would then enthusiastically proclaim that effective strategies for ending the problems of neoliberalism do exist.  There is no reason that the basic rules of our current economic cannot be changed or that concerned people can work collectively to change them so that everyone's needs can be met in ecologically sustainable ways.  In the following pages, I will explain some of these strategies as I more fully articulate my concern with your book.  I will start by describing what Richards and Swanger mean by "basic cultural rules of capitalism."  I will then summarize a few of their case studies of nations whose experiments with social democracy failed as a result of these basic cultural rules.  One such case study, that of South Africa after Mandela rose to power, is particularly illuminating.  Both you and Richards and Swanger give detailed accounts of how Mandela's South Africa ended up implementing neoliberal economic policy, but have very different explanations as to why this happened.  The conclusion of this letter will explain how your differing analysis of South Africa, and the rise of neoliberalism in general, lead to vastly different approaches to transformative social and economic change.    
    According to Richards and Swanger, the basic cultural rules that shape and sustain our current economic system are made up of a couple of interconnected parts.  First, as Marx explains in Capital, capitalism is based upon a culture of accumulation through commodity exchange.  Commodities are not produced in order to meet people's needs directly, but to sell to make profit that is then reinvested in the production of even more commodities.  Second, a simple set of ethics exists that produces, protects, and makes normal both the right to own property and the freedom to do with it whatever one wishes.  This minimalist set of ethical values emerged in western culture as the Romans sought to create a basic system of rules- a common economic language- that could facilitate commerce between the vastly different cultures that had been conquered in their quest for empire.  Enlightenment philosophers, such as Immanuel Kant, and classical economists, such as Adam Smith, would later adopt this emphasis on property and freedom to construct the ethical foundations of free market capitalism.
    Focusing on the two interconnected parts of capitalism's basic rules allows Richards and Swanger to provide a simple explanation as to why capitalist markets and welfare states usually cannot coexist peacefully. This simple explanation, preceded by another brief summary of capitalism's interconnected parts, now follows.  First, the summary: at the core of capitalist culture is the accumulation of profit through investment.  At the same time, the ethical values of property and freedom give investors the right to do what they want with their capital because it is their capital.  The freedom to invest in whichever market one chooses, the freedom to remove investment from one market and place it in another, and the freedom to not invest in any market at all, are guaranteed by the rules of the system.  Now, the simple explanation: in a capitalist economic system where the purpose of investment is to make profits, and the basic rules of the system give investors the freedom to choose where they invest, investors inevitably choose markets where profit can be made.  One is unlikely to find profitable markets in countries with high wages and a large tax base to support government funded health care and education.  Thus, markets in these countries are not usually chosen.

You can download the rest of the letter that has some case studies supporting this critique of Klein as well as some tools to help us work towards creating other rules here:

http://download.yousendit.com/6F8C97A079776091

Hope this clarifies what I am trying to say better.

And, uh, oh yeah, go Reds.

Tanzen!

by Verka Serduchka on Mar 12, 2008 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Except
The US already spends more per capita on health care than any country in the world.  What do we get?  Among the lowest life expectancies in the industrialized world.  Among the highest infant mortality rates in the industrialized world.  Oh, and the highest paid doctors.

I've talked to many doctors who would welcome nationalized health care.  Two in particular:  One worked in an emergency room in Detroit.  He said that those without, or who have inadequate, insurance are wasting valuable (and expensive) resources by waiting until they have to go to an emergency room, where they have to be treated whether they can pay or not.  The other used to be a general practioner in Canada.  He said that the horror stories you hear are generally overblown - sure, you can't get a liposuction this week, but if you really need an MRI today the gov't will pay for you to go to the nearest hospital to get one if it's really necessary (even if it's the US).

And again, the proof is in the pudding.  Despite all of the breast-beating, Canadians (and almost every other nationality with socialized medicine) are healthier and live longer than Americans, while spending less money.

I'd also like to dispel the myth of the "free market" when it comes to medicine - there isn't one.  Sure, you can choose your family doctor, but that isn't where the real costs are.  If you have a heart attack, do you have the ability to shop around for the cheapest care, or call 2 or 3 EMS services to find the cheapest ride to the hospital?  Even if you break your arm, are you going to call 3 or 4 hospitals to get the best price?  Of course not.  Why do you think health care costs rise so steadily?  Because no matter what, we need health care, so we pay for it.

just....wow.

by sidnancy on Mar 13, 2008 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

the myth of the "free market"
is a big-un - The Free market ain't Free.
Core dude - Dustbag's core is not the core that is the core.

by Madville on Mar 13, 2008 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Neither is free sex
always remember that crolfer!
Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Mar 13, 2008 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Rghto - Guv'ner
Core dude - Dustbag's core is not the core that is the core.

by Madville on Mar 13, 2008 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also Verka
another reason costs are so high.

"http://www.wherethemoneygoes.com/"

I think it is a bit much of unnecessary Obama wife bashing, but the overall point is excellent no matter what economic view you have.

by buckeye22fox on Mar 12, 2008 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Couple of quick thoughts
With regards to governments paying for healthcare being away to lower the cost of business, my understanding is that the money that governments would be using to pay for healthcare would in a large part being coming from taxes on businesses and corporations.  I don't know much about how Japan pulled it off but I imagine they were making better products than us, and, like Sweden for a short period of time, this allowed them to have large profits and a high tax base to support healthcare and lots of government social spending.

I recently heard that 31% of health care spending is for administration; a single-payer system would significantly shrink that.  We talk about "economies of scale" all of the time, but the two places where we could make the scale the largest (and save the most on administrative costs) - health care and retirement - we avoid like 3 day old potato salad.

I would argue, however, that currently one of the biggest obstacles to making this change is the belief that it is possible.

I agree.

How easy is changing the rules of baseball?

This is where baseball and the economy diverge.  I don't think anyone would argue that the things you mention actually changed the game (other than the DH, and many would argue it changed the game for the better); the economy (or more precisely, the way the economy is viewed to work best) would have to be materially changed to make it "work" better - not lowering the mound different, but getting rid of the pitcher altogether different.

And just to add a bit of humor, I'm glad they made the ball more self-assured.

just....wow.

by sidnancy on Mar 12, 2008 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Speaking of Cultures
A few years ago the founder of Sony wrote a book about his business experiences. Don't remember the title BUT he basically pointed out that Japan is extremely homogenous and that shared culural point of view is pervasive. If the government asks citizens to support Japanese produced products they would because of their unspoken agreement on their cultural loyalty to the motherland. He lso pointed out that Americans were not homogeneous and that becasue of the lack of shared culture Americans only looked for what was good for their own 'specific group/culture' NOW and fuck the long term.
Core dude - Dustbag's core is not the core that is the core.

by Madville on Mar 12, 2008 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the book you're talking about
is The Japan that Can Say No.  The Sony guy (Morita) co-wrote it with the a nationalist politician (Ishehara).  It was written at the apex of the economic miracle and boasted that it would surpass the U.S. due to its superior work force and harmonious business-government relationship.  He also decried U.S. racism against Japan while making his own race-based assumptions about the superiority of the Japanese worker.  Of course, the book failed to foresee how ineffective politicians (like Ishehara) and bloated bureacracy would not serve the country's long-term interests and contribute to the lost decade.

by ken on Mar 13, 2008 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

what the hell happened here?
Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on Mar 13, 2008 12:51 AM EDT reply actions  

I don't know...
But it scares me...
You can't have manslaughter without laughter

by crolfer on Mar 13, 2008 8:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

No need to worry.
So, A Ukrainian drag queen in the Dominican posted an open letter to an anti-globalization intellectual on a Cincinnati Reds message board.

Happens all the time.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Mar 13, 2008 8:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

that and collecting
spores, molds and Dustbugs
Core dude - Dustbag's core is not the core that is the core.

by Madville on Mar 13, 2008 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Honestly...
I prefer ants, bees and grasshoppers.
You can't have manslaughter without laughter

by crolfer on Mar 13, 2008 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

You should try
dead hooker body parts. Endless hours of enjoyment.
I enjoy pooping.

by Pops Daniels on Mar 14, 2008 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

I can't believe
my first post to Red Reporter is about economics.

Really, I've been lurking for over 2 years.  Back from the Leatherpants days.

Verka --
I think your analysis of economics as a cultural system is half-right.  I tend to think of it like engineering.  There are certain rules in engineering that are objective and scientific: that's the physics.  But designing a bridge is more than just the physics.  You have to work within the physics, but there is still a lot of latitude to design the bridge with the characteristics and aesthetics you want.

So, there are certain rules in economics that are not cultural but objective: supply and demand, comparative advantage to name two.  But there are other parts, like central banking and property law, which are culturally-based designs, meant to push the economy in the direction that is desired by the designers, by using the natural objective economic forces in the desired way.  You can't change supply and demand, but you can decide whether you want a system designed for maximum GDP or for maximum equality.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled baseball.

And I'm not doing any karaoke.

by bbjones on Mar 14, 2008 11:15 PM EDT reply actions  

I'm assigning you "Mr. Jones"
Sing it, rook!

(Ok, you've probably actually been reading this site longer than I have)

(Welcome to posting)

(Seriously.  Counting Crows)

by Brendanukkah on Mar 14, 2008 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

i like ballad of a thin man
and me and mr. jones
Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on Mar 15, 2008 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Homophonic musical musings
Core dude - Dustbag's core is not the core that is the core.

by Madville on Mar 15, 2008 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

the RR influence
I have a feeling I'm going to find myself at a karaoke event this weekend. It's like when you hear someone mention they ate Chipotle and it worms its way into your subconscious and before you know it you're eating one of those burritos.

by Red Menace on Mar 15, 2008 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't see
what is objective about supply and demand.  How is demand not a cultural phenomenon,  particularly in an economic system that uses advertisements to generate demand in order to sell what is produced to make enough money plus profit to start the cycle over again?

Comparative advantage is a little more interesting.  Originally, it was more objective, meaning that, for example countries with more fertile soil to grow corn had a comparative advantage to grow it when compared to a country that was mostly desert and was good at producing something else, say widgets.  Now, in our current global economy, comparative advantage is often gained through countries lowering wages, getting rid of environmental standards, violently oppressing unionizing, etc.  Thus, much of the global South now has a comparative advantage in producing lots of things that used to be produced in the global North.

It is important when having this conversation about cultural vs. natural laws, however, to always step outside of the system we have.  No matter whether it is more efficient for one country to produce corn and another to make widgets for whatever reason, does not mean that those countries have to only produce corn and widgets respectively, and then exchange them with each other.  Producing for exchange, while sometimes very logical, is but one cultural option for organizing our global economy or economies.

Tanzen!

by Verka Serduchka on Mar 15, 2008 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re
  • Demand is partially a cultural phenomenon, but it is based on universal human needs to a large extent.  Food, shelter, transportation, clothing - we all need some form of these, even if our consumption patterns within each category can vary.  
  • As for comparative advantage, I'll make the traditional argument that everyone has benefitted.  The global South has seen wages rise due to increased demand for goods where they have the comparative advantage.  The global North has seen prices fall since they no longer have to produce those goods.  The savings gained from fallen prices outweighs the jobs lost, on the aggregate.  It's up to the government to ensure that the savings are distributed equitably.  I'd also add that war is less likely in an integrated world economy because countries have vested interested in each other.  

by ken on Mar 16, 2008 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

the objective
The objective part of comparative advantage is that "if each participant produces the thing that they have a comparative advantage in, the maximum amount of stuff will be produced."  That's essentially a mathematical statement.

The cultural part is whether "producing the most stuff" is really the goal you want to achieve.  The physics part is the "law" of comparative advantage; the engineering part is designing a system using those laws to achieve your goals.

Likewise, supply and demand is objective in the essentially mathematical statement, "For a constant supply, the more people want something, the higher the price will be.  For a constant demand, the more of something there is, the lower the price will be."  The cultural choice (which, you'll notice, I haven't yet taken a stand on) is about how to use that objective law to build the kind of economy you want.

Likewise with taxes as mentioned.  The objective part: if you tax something more, consumption of it will be reduced.  That is a values-free statement.  Now, that can be an unwanted side effect of your tax, or like cigarette taxes, it can be part of the goal.  That's the cultural part.

What we can't do is stuff like, "Let's reduce prices without changing demand or supply."

In other news, thanks for the warm welcome! and I think next time I better post about baseball. :)

by bbjones on Mar 16, 2008 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh... and welcome
It is also important not to forget our humanity in these conversations about things that matter, and things that don't, as well as everything in between.

So thanks for joining the conversation and happy posting.

Tanzen!

by Verka Serduchka on Mar 15, 2008 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think that a reggae
inspired 'Bridge Over Troubled Waters' would suffice.
Core dude - Dustbag's core is not the core that is the core.

by Madville on Mar 15, 2008 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

yer blues
just like Dylan's Mr. Jones...

yes I'm lonely.... wanna die.....

Oh wait.  That was Fat Vegas Alan's previous incarnation, right?  Does that mean he should have to sing twice?

by bbjones on Mar 15, 2008 1:03 AM EDT reply actions  

newbie mistake
didn't even post in the thread properly...

by bbjones on Mar 15, 2008 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

Uhhhh...
As an economist, I kind of take exception to the blanket statement about the badness of taxes.

Taxes have distortionary effects, this is true.  But there are ways to minimize these effects, or use them to accomplish certain social goals (i.e. tax cigarettes heavily both to raise revenue and to discourage smoking).  And more importantly, public programs can be worth the expense when the social benefits of the programs exceed what individuals would have gotten on their own in the absence of the programs.

Health care and education, in fact, are two great examples of how public provision can lead to large public benefits.  By making sure that everyone can read and obtain basic job skills, we are increasing worker productivity and avoiding a whole host of other major social issues that arise in the presence of an uneducated underclass.  Public health insurance shifts that responsibility from businesses, where it has become a huge burden, and if the government can reduce administrative costs and otherwise improve allocation of services (both likely if done correctly), we can come out better with taxes + public provision than without both.

by Gray on Mar 16, 2008 8:37 AM EDT reply actions  

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