Put'em in the #1 hole.

by jacob brumfield on Feb 7, 2008 9:56 AM EST Comment 61 comments

Leadoff Hitters.
Are they really that important? Must the lanky slap-hittin speedster fill the position? Or should it be the guy with the best (pick your poison) AVG, OBP, SB, walk rate, friendly face, someone who works the count, disrupts pitchers while on the basepaths, ground ball hitter, fly ball hitter....

I am no genius on the matter, and this did not enlighten me. This here was helpful but made the matter more complex. And then I learn that we did this last year. So what's up with the leadoff spot? Is it some big myth made up in little league? Or is there a science behind choosing the right guy?

More importantly who slides into the hole in spring training?
Do we let multiple guys play in our hole?
Do we allow a newbie into our hole or go to someone with a little more experience?
Do these questions sound oddly gay?

Lets here who you want leading off for the Reds.

Poll

What name(s) would you want scribbled on top of the lineup card?

Ryan Freel

4 votes

Joey Votto

15 votes

Edwin Encarnacion

1 votes

Ken Grifey Jr.

1 votes

Jeff Keppinger

13 votes

Alex Gonzalez

1 votes

Brandon Phillips

14 votes

boobs

11 votes

Adam Dunn

3 votes

Scott Hatteberg

1 votes

Jay Bruce

10 votes

Norris Hopper

23 votes

97 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs | Comment 61 comments

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Comments

I'm not putting anything in the #1 hole

I learned that lesson the hard way.

I think it all depends on who is playing. If Freel is starting, lead him off. He has a history of getting on base well, though he wasn't as good last season.

If Bruce starts in center, then it depends on who is on the infield. If Keppinger is playing, then I'd be fine with him leading off. Again, he's pretty good at getting on base. Otherwise, I'd be okay with Hatte or Votto.

And if BP is ever leading off, I hope they put Dunn in the 2-spot, rather than (God forbid) Gonzalez.

I'm not superstitious...but I am a little stitious.

by Slyde on Feb 7, 2008 10:12 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I really want Freel to go back to his '04-'06 form

But I have this unsubstantiated sinking feeling it's not going to happen. If it does, then I definitely want him leading off when he's playing. (I think he's going to be leading off when he's playing, anyway).

I really like Dunner in the 2-spot. I was always pleased when he ended up there on the Narron random lineup rotation.

"Just remember, it's not a lie if you believe it." - George Constanza

by beasleymachine on Feb 7, 2008 10:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Dunn at the 2

watch out, bitches, we have a posse!

Superbike World Championship is the worldwide superbike championship.

by Man Mountain on Feb 7, 2008 10:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I voted for Votto

I really don't want Brandon leading off, but I'm afraid that's probably what will happen. I'd say NoHo, but that means Jay Bruce probably wouldn't be playing, and I want Jay Bruce playing (and not leading off). So that left me with Votto and his .360 OBP last September. I'm thinking that goes up a little this year, and that wouldn't be too bad leading off. The unfortunate part is he might be expected to run a little if he's leading off, and I'm not sure how good he is at that. He apparently had 17 steals at AAA last year, but got caught 10 times. And that's not too good.

"Just remember, it's not a lie if you believe it." - George Constanza

by beasleymachine on Feb 7, 2008 10:14 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

How's this look?

Bruce CF
Votto 1B
Griffey RF
Phillips 2B
Dunn LF
Encarnacion 3B
Gonzalez SS
Ross C

Or perhaps flip Votto and Bruce? I see this as our best 8. There doesn't seem to be a "prototypical" lead-off hitter. Obviously if Freel or NoHo start I'd lead them off, but with these 8 it's not very clear cut. I voted for Bruce.

by Lakeman on Feb 7, 2008 10:28 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I think this is the year to move Jr. down to 5 or

Something like this:

Bruce CF
Gonzalez SS or Keppinger
Phillips 2B
Dunn LF
Griffey RF
Encarnacion 3B
Votto 1B
Ross C

After Grif gets hurt:

Noho/Freel
Bruce CF
Phillips 2B
Dunn LF
Encarnacion 3B
Votto 1B
Gonzalez SS or Keppinger
Ross C

"Men are ruled,this minute by the clock, by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern. G.K. Chesterton 1917

by Madville on Feb 7, 2008 1:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Not bad

I like Keppinger in the 2 hole, but don't see Gonzalez playing there. I think your post-griff lineup is dead on.

by Lakeman on Feb 7, 2008 1:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

how can i be the only person

who voted for boobs?

Forshame.

Oh, I'd be interested in trying Votto at the top of the lineup, but whoever the leadoff guy is will be running a lot with the toothpick calling the shots. And Votto won't be that guy. I'm positive we'll see Hopper/Freel, which has the potential to be bad unless NoHo really is a infield hit witch or Freel reverts back to pre-running-into-shit-Freel. Damn, I'm hungover

Superbike World Championship is the worldwide superbike championship.

by Man Mountain on Feb 7, 2008 10:40 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Doing shots of tequila every time

one of the Mexican attackers beat our defenders along the flanks? Yeah, that would have left you with a hurtin'.

Ay caramba! Que lastima!

(Dempsey and Altidore are total studs, though.)

by Brendanukkah on Feb 7, 2008 10:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

you said it

if they can sure up (or is it shore up? im almost sure its sure) the defense they can be a world cup contender. tim howard was pissed. very pissed.

is it April yet?

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 7, 2008 7:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

From what I've read about the game

The entire American side was disorganized in defending set plays. Howard was having a baby.

I do like our form going forward, but I just don't see it as varied or deep enough to get out of a medium to tough group in the WC. I think Bradley will rotate in enough young guys to find out what works.

I do love that a number of our U-21s are in Europe rather than MLS and that Bradley is encouraging that.

Superbike World Championship is the worldwide superbike championship.

by Man Mountain on Feb 7, 2008 10:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

the U-21s look really promising

im actually getting pretty excited about american soccer. and ive never even been a soccer fan. that has to be a good sign.

is it April yet?

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 7, 2008 11:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I would have voted for boobs

but I'm saving all of my votes for the Ohio Primary. In Ohio, voting rules don't apply and it's every man for himself.

I'm not superstitious...but I am a little stitious.

by Slyde on Feb 7, 2008 10:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

In Ohio, voting rules don't apply

very true. Forget the vote and take it straight to the courts

Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds

by Caleb on Feb 7, 2008 7:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I vote Grifey

Let the mystery man lead off!

by Brendanukkah on Feb 7, 2008 10:43 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Grifey

sounds like one of the Little Rascals.

Superbike World Championship is the worldwide superbike championship.

by Man Mountain on Feb 7, 2008 10:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Was he the one played by Leonard Nimoy?

by Brendanukkah on Feb 7, 2008 10:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Four I wouldn't mind....

Brandon Phillips - because for at least one at bat he won't be swinging for the fences, and he has the speed

Ryan Freel - can work a count and force a pitcher to show plenty of pitches(as can Hatte), can take pitchers attention away from the batter while on base

Norris Hopper - because he can yell "Surprise cockfags!" (points) as he lays down a drag bunt on the first pitch of the game

Joey Votto - the whole, 'he's good at getting on base' deal

I would rather have Dunn, Griff, EdE, and Bruce in as many rbi situations as possible

Kepp and Hatte- meh

Gonzalez and Ross- heck no

oh, and boobs are never first, they go second or third...and if you put them fourth or fifth, you're just wasting precious time.

by jacob brumfield on Feb 7, 2008 1:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

team america

to be honest, boobs should never be batted at all

Superbike World Championship is the worldwide superbike championship.

by Man Mountain on Feb 7, 2008 1:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Earl Weaver

usta have the "pitcher" bat in the lead-off spot, therefore having a pinch hitter lead off the game (on the road, of course), then have the pitcher bat in the "one" spot ever after ( in that game).

Novel idea, at least for road games.

No options were harmed in the making of this comment.

STOP TALKING ABOUT OPTIONS! YOU OBVIOUSLY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT HOW THEY WORK. -Geki

by Lonesome George on Feb 7, 2008 2:10 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Maybe

we shouldn't cut stanton after all. He could start for us every game on the road.

by Lakeman on Feb 7, 2008 2:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Does that mean

the "real" starting pitcher would actually be pitching in relief? Meaning, let's say it's Bronson's day to pitch. I guess you give Harang the start, pinch hit for him with the first batter of the game, and Bronson throws 7 innings in relief. I'd love to see that just to mess with people's heads when looking at box scores/stat sheets later. I suppose the downside is you waste a pinch hitter who can presumably get on base (if you're letting him leadoff).

"Just remember, it's not a lie if you believe it." - George Constanza

by beasleymachine on Feb 7, 2008 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't believe it

It's a waste of a player just to have your pitcher bat one position later in the lineup. I don't see any advantage to such a move. Why would he do it?

I'm not superstitious...but I am a little stitious.

by Slyde on Feb 7, 2008 2:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

hmmm

I know why

Superbike World Championship is the worldwide superbike championship.

by Man Mountain on Feb 7, 2008 5:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I thought

that whomever was penciled into pitch, had to face at least one batter (unless injured) before he could be removed from the game. I guess that does not include starting pitchers?

The Dusty path to the World Series!

by justin0070000 on Feb 7, 2008 3:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't rain on our parade

with your technical "rules" and "details."

"Just remember, it's not a lie if you believe it." - George Constanza

by beasleymachine on Feb 7, 2008 3:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

Was looking that up as I was posting. Rule 6.10(b).

by ken on Feb 7, 2008 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You lawyers and your rule 6.10(b)s

always getting in the way of everyone's good time.

I'm not superstitious...but I am a little stitious.

by Slyde on Feb 7, 2008 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

How about this

Pencil in Javier Valentin as your starting pitcher and have him throw one pitch (pitchout) then pull him.

Pitching Statline for the year: 32 G 3 W 0 L 0.0 IP

by Lakeman on Feb 8, 2008 10:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Actually

The pitcher that starts the at bat is the one that is credited with the result of the at bat, so he would have some innings pitched, assuming the next pitcher actually gets an out on the batter.

I'm not superstitious...but I am a little stitious.

by Slyde on Feb 8, 2008 10:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

gotcha

10.2 IP

Bruce Bonser? Boone Bonser? Boot Bonser?BOOSE BONZER?

by Lakeman on Feb 8, 2008 11:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

also

you can't win if you start the game but don't pitch five innings.

Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on Feb 8, 2008 12:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

So you're suggesting

that we pitch Valentin for 5 innings? I really don't think this is a good idea.

Bruce Bonser? Boone Bonser? Boot Bonser?BOOSE BONZER?

by Lakeman on Feb 12, 2008 12:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Valentin would have to complete the at bat

unless he is injured on the first pitch. You could have him walk the lead off batter, or even better just hit him.

The Dusty path to the World Series!

by justin0070000 on Feb 8, 2008 2:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

thats ridiculous

you are going to all this trouble to get one less at-bat for your pitcher and in the end you are giving their leadoff man a free base every game? thats CRAZY!!!

is it April yet?

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 9, 2008 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

crazy like Fox

Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on Feb 9, 2008 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Didn't know about this

But Weaver used to list an off-day SP as his DH to throw off the other team. I'm not really sure if this was a significant advantage, but I guess it prevents the other side from knowing if you were going with a LHB or RHB that day. In any event, it gave him some options. MLB later passed a rule to stop this by requiring the DH to hit at least once, unless the opposing pitcher is changed.

by ken on Feb 7, 2008 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I would guess

You'd do it, because your pitcher would essentially bat 10th the first time through the lineup.

Something like this:

1st time through:

Stanton (Valentin)
Freel
Gonzalez
Griffey
Phillips
Dunn
Encarnacion
Votto
Ross

2nd time through:
Harang
Freel
Gonzalez
Griffey
Phillips
Dunn
Encarnacion
Votto
Ross

Something like a double switch in the first inning? Is this right?

by Lakeman on Feb 7, 2008 2:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, but

The counter argument is that it just burns a bench player really early in the game. It seems like not much of a tradeoff. And if you're really that worried about having to have your pitcher bat, there's always 14 other teams that you can go to.

by Brendanukkah on Feb 7, 2008 2:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The counter counter argument is

that it was Earl Weaver and he liked to mess with people's heads

I think he only did it during September of '74 or '75, and he was scrapping to get more offense (runs) per game, so that is what he did.

If you have good starters and you don't expect to use up your bull-pen, it's one way to guarantee that your best pinch hitter gets used in an effective way.

That was Earl, and he managed to win. Whatever.

I just threw that out there because it seemed like a fun thing to do.

And because I can no longer discuss options.

STOP TALKING ABOUT OPTIONS! YOU OBVIOUSLY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT HOW THEY WORK. -Geki

by Lonesome George on Feb 7, 2008 4:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't take the Options thing so hard...

...Geki is just mean, he knocked the ice cream out of my hands, and kicked me in the shins then told me if I cried he would punch my mom in the uterus.

"Sure, I'd like to tape a baseball game without the express written consent of Major League Baseball, but that's just not the way it works." -Hank Hill

by jacob brumfield on Feb 7, 2008 4:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Why not list Valentin as the SP

in your scenario, since he won't pitch anyways? That way we could "save" Stanton.

by ken on Feb 7, 2008 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't like it

I think a manager needs to pick his spots with his best pinch hitter. A pinch hitter with nobody on, in the top of the first is a waste. There may be a situation in the 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, extra innings when you have a couple of men on and really need a hit, or a sac fly, or something, but you used your pinch hitter as a one time only lead off man.

The Dusty path to the World Series!

by justin0070000 on Feb 7, 2008 4:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think it's weird too....

It's just that this discussion of who the Reds' should have lead off reminded me of seeing that back in the '70's on Saturday afternoon baseball.

Ideally, you have somebody who can hit 0.300, walks a lot, has an OBP of 0.40 or better (Morgan and Rose both had an OBP of around 0.390 or 0.400 in 1972, and both scored over 100 runs) and can steal 50 bases a year (Morgan batted second and stole over 50 bases).

We don't have a player like that. Hopper is close, but we would all rather have Bruce start in CF, Griffey in Right and Dunner in Left.

Having BP lead off is not terrible. He actually only "leads off" once a game. He might frequently come to bat with men on base to drive in, in key rbi situations (clutch?!). You should set up your line-up so that your best hitters come to bat most often. I think it makes no sense to have some ding-dong banjo 0.240 hitter in the two-spot just so he can "hit behind the runner" or some such numb-skull idea that's been in baseball forever.
If Hatteberg plays, he bats second (IMHO).
If Votto plays, bat Edwin second. Or Votto.
Bat Dunn third, so that he gets the protection of Griffey; plus he walks a lot. This could force pitcher to bat to Dunn; fewer walks but more production on 3-2 counts?
Griffey is experienced enough to bat fourth and suffer from being pitched around in certain situations.
If Bruce plays, bat him fifth.
If Hopper plays, he bats lead-off and BP bats fifth.
Bat Ross eighth no matter what.
Gonzalez 7th, unless he's tearing it up (unlikely).
Sixth is Edwin or Joey. Flip flop them between sixth and 2nd.

Dusty will bat Gonzalez second, because that's where Short-stops bat, you know, to hit behind the runner. Never mind that A-gon doesn't do that.

STOP TALKING ABOUT OPTIONS! YOU OBVIOUSLY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT HOW THEY WORK. -Geki

by Lonesome George on Feb 7, 2008 5:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Heh

Dusty will bat Gonzalez second, because that's where Short-stops bat, you know, to hit behind the runner.

I just looked up what he did in Chicago, and a huge majority of the time in 2003 and 2005-2006, Dusty had his 2B or SS bat second. It didn't matter who it was, the batter in the 2-hole was almost always a middle infielder. In 2004, he broke from that method and tried a variety of players in the 2-spot, including Derrek Lee and Michael Barrett.

And of course, the player in 2003 that started the most games batting second for the Cubs? Alex "Not Sea Bass" Gonzalez.

I'm not superstitious...but I am a little stitious.

by Slyde on Feb 7, 2008 5:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

And I didn't even have to look it up...

to know that. And that's a pretty sad commentary on how a lot of baseball managers think (or don't, as the case may be).

STOP TALKING ABOUT OPTIONS! YOU OBVIOUSLY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT HOW THEY WORK. -Geki

by Lonesome George on Feb 10, 2008 11:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

OPENING DAY TICKET "LOTTERY"

From Reds.com: In a continuing effort to make Opening Day tickets available to as many fans as possible, the Cincinnati Reds are pleased to announce a new ticket opportunity for the March 31 game vs. the Arizona Diamondbacks. Starting on Monday, Feb. 11 at 9 a.m. through Tuesday, Feb. 12 at 5 p.m.(...THAT'S TODAY!!), fans can register below for a chance to purchase up to four individual Opening Day tickets. Since there are a limited number of tickets available through this opportunity, applicants must complete and submit the registration form below to participate in this opportunity to purchase Opening Day tickets.

Link.

Take a look around this dump. You're just a tourist with a typewriter. I live here.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 12, 2008 1:11 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

MORE LOTTERY FYI

REGISTRATION PERIOD ENDS: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 @ 5:00 p.m. ET
OPENING DAY RANDOM DRAWING: On or about Wednesday, February 13, 2008
WINNERS NOTIFIED VIA E-MAIL: On or about Wednesday, February 13, 2008
OPENING DAY SALE FOR WINNERS: Thursday, February 14, 2008 @ 9:00 a.m. ET

Take a look around this dump. You're just a tourist with a typewriter. I live here.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 12, 2008 1:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks Alan.

I would have forgotten had you not reminded us.. Now you have less of a chance to "win".. If I win the chance to buy tickets, maybe I'll sell you one. :)

-The red brick wall was the color of a brick-red crayon.

by snohio on Feb 12, 2008 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

im buying 10

and selling the other 8 on ebay for a huge profit.

Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on Feb 12, 2008 2:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

oui

Superbike World Championship is the worldwide superbike championship.

by Man Mountain on Feb 12, 2008 5:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I've got extras.

I'll trade you four tickets to the parade for two tickets to the game.

Take a look around this dump. You're just a tourist with a typewriter. I live here.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 12, 2008 3:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

the lottery is bullshit

i think it should be first come first serve. I am glad I got to go to opening day in 1999, because I doubt I will ever be able to attend another opening day in Cincinnati.

The Dusty path to the World Series!

by justin0070000 on Feb 12, 2008 7:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

stinking capitalist

i hope you never see another opening day.

is it April yet?

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 12, 2008 8:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Opening Day is overrated

Game 2 is when the real fans go.

I'm not superstitious...but I am a little stitious.

by Slyde on Feb 12, 2008 8:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

a real fan goes to game 4

against Pittsburgh, in subfreezing weather.

I did enjoy that game though. Belisle pitched 6 good innings, I think Coffey threw a good inning (2) along with Weathers. I think Stanton may or may not have pitched that day, or it may have been Saarloos. I got real excited when I was teased by Coutlangus, but he never entered the game. I took a blanket, and wore multiple layers, the hot dogs were rarely hot, but the drink stayed cold.

Also remember that season when the Red's bullpen didn't give up a run in the first week and half of the season?

The Dusty path to the World Series!

by justin0070000 on Feb 12, 2008 9:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs