Baseball Strategy

by ben nevis on Feb 28, 2008 11:19 AM EST

I didn't notice this at the end of last year, but I read the other day that LaRussa is having his pitchers bat 8th in the lineup this spring and possibly into the season. I'm not a big fan of LaRussa (I think he's generally overrated), but I'm curious. Can someone with a little more baseball knowhow clue me in? What's the TLR trying to do here?

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second leadoff hitter

The idea is that it makes it more likely for there to be a runner on base for the top of the lineup, which supposedly holds your best hitters. The Book found that doing so will give your team a couple more runs a season. David Pinto also had an article about it just yesterday.

The big thing that The Book found about lineups is that while the order of the lineup doesn't have that big of an effect, you can squeeze a handful of runs out by being more efficient with the lineup. In a race that could be as tight as the NL Central, a few runs here or there may make the difference.

Note that in the Pinto article, he mentions that Ned Yost is also considering doing the same thing.

Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Feb 28, 2008 11:35 AM EST reply actions

That logic would only hold true...

If you actually had good hitters that produced (hit with RISP) at the top of your line-up.

The Reds will have....FROPPER!

"Never kick a fresh turd on a hot day" - Harry S. Truman

by Lonesome George on Feb 28, 2008 11:40 AM EST up reply actions

It also doesn't help if...

when you flip your pitcher to 8th, the number 9 hitter becomes David Ross and his not quite .200 batting average.

I don't know why, but I feel particularly pessimistic this season. I don't think we're going to be that good.

Quick! Somebody make a Cincinnati loves Ken Griffey Jr. too! video

by TheC on Feb 28, 2008 12:09 PM EST up reply actions

Well

I'm having trouble wrapping my mid around this.

Why would this be a better startegy that keeping the lineup as-is, but batting (in our case) ross lead-off, fropper 2nd and so on, gonzalez 8th and the pitcher 9th?

Bruce Bonser? Boone Bonser? Boot Bonser?BOOSE BONZER?

by Lakeman on Feb 28, 2008 12:59 PM EST up reply actions

Theoretically

The reason you wouldn't just put that 9th batter first is because of the number of plate appearances that they would get. The difference is between 15-20 plate appearances per position in the order. So, by putting the guy you normally would put 9th into the 1st spot, you are giving him 140 more plate appearances.

The idea is that the guy you would put into the 9th spot is a better hitter than the pitcher, but not someone who is good enough to bat higher up in the lineup. The strategy is to take better advantage of the looping nature of the lineup and set your best hitters up better as the game goes on.

Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Feb 28, 2008 1:11 PM EST up reply actions

larussa's lineup

He's actually toyed with this a few times in the past, hasn't he?

2-0 count: one pitch, one zone

by rojosoto on Feb 28, 2008 11:46 AM EST reply actions

He did it the last two months of the season

last year.

Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Feb 28, 2008 11:56 AM EST up reply actions

God bless the internet!

Found what I was looking for.
Larussa hit the pitcher 8th for the entire 2nd half of the 1998 season. He took a lot of crap for it and switched back to the traditional lineup in 1999.

2-0 count: one pitch, one zone

by rojosoto on Feb 28, 2008 12:14 PM EST up reply actions

All to help Mcgwire

hit a few more dingers. Boo.

by ken on Feb 28, 2008 1:43 PM EST up reply actions

what other manager was known for that?

wasn't there some other guy who did that quite often with some success? or am i just thinking of larussa in another age?

2008 NL Central Champs!

by Daedalus on Feb 28, 2008 12:12 PM EST reply actions

It's pretty much been LaRussa

Here's the number of times it has happened since 1975:



1976 White Sox  1

1979 Phillies   1

1998 Cardinals 77

2004 Expos      1

2005 Marlins    2

2007 Cardinals 56

The two times the Marlins did it in 2005, Dontrelle Willis was the pitcher and Robert Andino batted 9th. When Montreal did it in 2004, it was against the Reds with Tomo Ohka batting 8th and Jamey Carroll batting 9th.

Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Feb 28, 2008 12:27 PM EST up reply actions

ah, thanks

i thought 76 was the first year for the DH. why did the white sox have a pitcher batting?

2008 NL Central Champs!

by Daedalus on Feb 28, 2008 12:32 PM EST up reply actions

I'm not sure

The DH actually started in 1973, so a random pitcher batting 8th in 1976 is even more weird.

The pitcher was Ken Brett (George's brother) and he wasn't a bad hitter for a pitcher (.262/.291/.406 career line with 10 HR). I'm guessing it's because the White Sox came into the game with an 8-game losing streak and were trying to shake things up at the end of the season (the game was on 9/23). It didn't work as they ended up losing 3-0, extending the streak to 9 games. They did win the next night, but then followed that up with a 6-game losing streak to end the season.

And now you know the rest of the of the story.

Don't talk back to Darth Vader or he'll getcha!

by Slyde on Feb 28, 2008 12:44 PM EST up reply actions

Oh, that.

That's just LaRussa being LaRussa. He's always coming up with crazy shit like that. He's got his own alphabet too.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 28, 2008 1:59 PM EST reply actions

I think it is baseball prospectus

but is might be wrong, there is a baseball site that allows the user to enter in players and there OBP, and Slg%, and it always places the worst hitter 8th. Generally in the American league the worst hitter is in the 8th spot. But in the NL, it would be kind of rediculous, because you want a pitcher to get the least amount of plate apperances, and also in theory it should allow the pitcher to pitch longer, without needing a pinch hitter.

The Dusty path to the World Series! (This is not an endorsement.)

by justin0070000 on Feb 28, 2008 3:05 PM EST reply actions

batting

Unless the pitcher pitches a complete game, the pitcher will always have the least # of plate appearances, even batting 8th. If you have a good #1/2 hitter, I think it makes sense to bat a pitcher 8th and a better hitter 9th.

2-0 count: one pitch, one zone

by rojosoto on Feb 28, 2008 3:20 PM EST up reply actions