Could I really like Dusty?

by greg456 on Feb 16, 2008 7:48 PM EST

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/spring2008/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=3249319&lpo s=spotlight&lid=tab2pos2

I know this is almost heresy in these parts, and I didn't like the hire at the time, but is it OK to be excited after reading this article?

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I've actually gotten over my Dusty distrusty

Spring washes away all sins.

By July, I'm certain I won't like him, but then he's a major league manager. For some reason, I tend to not like their kind.

I'm not superstitious...but I am a little stitious.

by Slyde on Feb 16, 2008 7:52 PM EST reply actions

Liking Dusty is similar to The Fart Button.

Press it. You know you want to.

Take a look around this dump. You're just a tourist with a typewriter. I live here.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 16, 2008 7:55 PM EST reply actions

glad to know i'm the only one who has softened

I never thought he was as bad as Cubs fan do. I don't even blame him for Prior or Wood. Wood was damaged by his high school pitching coach, and again by Jim Riggleman. Plus I got to believe that the organization will put tabs on Bailey, Cueto, Maloney, and EV. I do hope he treats Harang with some care. Narron road Harang pretty hard and he hasn't shown any ill effects yet, but we need to keep him healthy for a while.

The Dusty path to the World Series!

by justin0070000 on Feb 16, 2008 8:38 PM EST reply actions

Harang-Wood

I'm sorry, but I love this stat

Aaron Harang, in his career, has thrown 15 games where he threw 120+ pitches

Kerry Wood threw 14 games where he threw 120+ pitches in 2003.

Pardon my skepticism on Baker.

"Karma - there it was. The meaning of life, straight from Carson Daly's lips to my morphine-laced ears." -Earl Hickey

by BLee2525 on Feb 16, 2008 9:27 PM EST up reply actions

From the article:

..."You can't live in the past," Baker went on, at his philosopher-king best.

That shit is deep, man.

Take a look around this dump. You're just a tourist with a typewriter. I live here.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 16, 2008 8:59 PM EST reply actions

philosopher king?

i so totally see it.

is it April yet?

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 16, 2008 9:20 PM EST up reply actions

I wonder...

if Plato wore wristbands as well?

suggestions, anyone?

by BobbyO on Feb 17, 2008 1:37 PM EST up reply actions

Heh

It reminds me of one of my favorite TOS's: The Big Picture. It's not a baseball-related site, but the TOS is amusing:

4B: Comments by Trolls and Asshats:

This may be a free country, but The Big Picture is my personal fiefdom. I rule over all as benevolent dictator/philospher king/utility infielder. Fear my wrath, mortals!
I will ban anyone whom I choose from posting comments -- usually, for a damned good reason, but on rare occasions, for the exact same reason God created the platypus: because I feel like it.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Feb 16, 2008 9:32 PM EST up reply actions

He wants Corey Patterson to come lead off.

No, liking Dusty doesn't seem very plausible.

by Geki on Feb 17, 2008 4:13 PM EST reply actions

Agreed

I haven't been very encouraged by much of what I've heard from him. And I know he was hired in the offseason, but it keeps sounding like he's surprised by who all is on the club and just what they can or might be able to do.

Of course, things get lost in journalistic translation. Everyone always says how much of a funny guy Kent Mercker is, but everything they print is just "meh"-worthy. Anyway, the players seem to be having a positive reaction so far to Dusty, and while I shiver at what his lineup construction might look like, there's always the chance that that lineup will play their brains out for him.

Let's go, Reds?

by Brendanukkah on Feb 17, 2008 5:05 PM EST up reply actions

Patterson

Is there speculation that the Reds are interested in Patterson? I hadn't heard that. I'm not at all opposed to getting him if he's cheap, but not to hit leadoff.

by greg456 on Feb 17, 2008 7:18 PM EST up reply actions

I'm apposed to him leading off over Jay Bruce

The Dusty path to the World Series!

by justin0070000 on Feb 17, 2008 7:22 PM EST up reply actions

bruce

I'm not opposed to Jay Bruce coming in here and hitting 30 HRs and driving in 100 runs. But there's no guarantee that he'll do that. And there's no guarantee that Junior will stay healthy. I feel better with Patterson as the 4th OF than Hopper or Freel, but there could probably be a statistical case made that I am wrong.

by greg456 on Feb 17, 2008 7:31 PM EST up reply actions

here it is

.284
.329
.320
.254
.314
.304

Those are Patterson's OBP since 2002. Last year Freel struggled and put up a .308 but his career rate is .358.

Hopper put up a .371 in 300 at bats last year. In his minor league career he had a .343 which isn't great all things considered.

by Red Menace on Feb 17, 2008 7:46 PM EST up reply actions

like i said

I could probably be proved wrong by statistical evidence. However, this doesn't necessarily do it for me. There's more to being a baseball player than OBP. Patterson plays great defense and would provide more power than either Freel or Hopper. Maybe he's a better baserunner too. I'm not saying Patterson's the better player, I'm just saying citing OBP doesn't prove that one player is better than the other.

by greg456 on Feb 18, 2008 8:17 AM EST up reply actions

fwiw

I just came up with my own evidence that I don't have a leg to stand on, so you don't need to waste your time looking up the stats this morning. I can't believe Patterson slugged .386 last year. Yeesh. I'll take his age 23 season.

by greg456 on Feb 18, 2008 8:24 AM EST up reply actions

My mom supplies more power

than Noho.

I love sports. Whenever I can, I always watch the Detroit Tigers on the radio. Gerald R. Ford

by Madville on Feb 18, 2008 12:25 PM EST up reply actions

Dusty has talked to his former centerfielder

The Fay:

"Everybody needs a leadoff hitter," Baker said. "I think that is the most unappreciated, hardest to find quality position in baseball."

To that end, Baker has talked to Kenny Lofton and Corey Patterson. Could either end up in Reds camp?

"There's a chance," Baker said. "They're out there looking for jobs. You want to get right pieces of the puzzle."

The hang up with Lofton is the Reds don't have a spot on the 40-man rosrter. "Kenny wants a big-league contract," Baker said.

Signing Lofton would not necessarily mean that Jay Bruce starts the year in the minors.

"I haven't seen Bruce play," Baker said. "You see Junior (Griffey) who came at 19. Corey Patterson was rushed a bit and didn't get time to mature. It's kind of like raising your kid: You don't know if you did the right it until later. . . it's something that is very hard to judge. When is now? It's not secret Bruce is a star of futrue. Who knows he could be a star of the present. I'm very impressed talking to him."

And I think we all know that if Corey Patterson is in the lineup, he'll be leading off. This is Dusty Baker, not a real person with a real brain.

by Geki on Feb 17, 2008 7:50 PM EST up reply actions

Now correct me if I am wrong

but isn't Patterson an over priced Norris Hopper with more power {but not enough power to be that much better}.

What is not to like?

I Misremember lots of things

by Zach K on Feb 17, 2008 10:18 PM EST up reply actions

You're forgetting...

..all of Patterson's veteran presence.

Take a look around this dump. You're just a tourist with a typewriter. I live here.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 17, 2008 10:32 PM EST up reply actions

Take Wily Mo Pena

and trade a lot of the power for a lot of speed. You have Corey Patterson.

by Geki on Feb 17, 2008 11:00 PM EST up reply actions

that doesnt sound like a very good player at all

Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on Feb 17, 2008 11:13 PM EST up reply actions

I'm sure he would propell the Bats

to an Western Division title, if not an International League pennant.

The Dusty path to the World Series!

by justin0070000 on Feb 18, 2008 1:09 AM EST up reply actions

The thing about Patterson is

His doesn't get on base very much, BUT he has almost no power.

Bruce Bonser? Boone Bonser? Boot Bonser?BOOSE BONZER?

by Lakeman on Feb 18, 2008 3:09 PM EST up reply actions

If they're going to go out and get Patterson

because they think they need a leadoff hitter, I'd rather they just save the money and put BP in at leadoff. Then maybe they can put Bruce in CF.

I'm not superstitious...but I am a little stitious.

by Slyde on Feb 18, 2008 5:54 PM EST up reply actions

dusty must be ca-razy

how is corey patterson in ANY WAY an upgrade over norris hopper? because he is left-handed? baseball has been away too long. i kinda forgot what it was like to be frustrated by this magnitude of incompetance.

is it April yet?

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 18, 2008 6:01 PM EST up reply actions

Because he played for Dusty in Chicago.

That would be the only plausible reason.

by Geki on Feb 18, 2008 6:03 PM EST up reply actions

operative word being

"plausible"

is it April yet?

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 18, 2008 6:09 PM EST up reply actions

Dusty, our man in the dugout...

Dusty is what he is.

On a team that had Hank Aaron, Darrol Evans (+40 Hr), Dave Johnson (+40 Hr), Dusty batted fourth (Hank batted third), with only around 20 Hr. The manager must've thought he knew something about the way Dusty 'played the game'.
If he can get the Reds to reach down and play harder and WIN, then maybe it's more than talk.

Sparky is remembered as a 'great' manager, but he ruined about one pitcher a year. In 1970, he ruined Jim Merritt and Wayne Simpson. In '72 he ruined Tom Hall. That's part of pushing players and a team to win a pennant. I guess.

I don't see Dusty as being an original thinker as a manager, as many of the other insightful fans that post here don't, either. Yet he MIGHT be able to get this team to reach down and play harder than Bob Boone, Dave Miley or Jerry Narron ever could. Plus, he might have a not half - bad pitching staff. As those guys frankly all had pretty lousy pitching staffs, through not much fault of theirs. The Reds just didn't have the talent, misused though it sometimes was.

So yeah, I'm not overly optimistic about Dusty as a manager. But then again, he may get this team to win, which they haven't done in 7 straight seasons. And the losing really sucks, if you're a Reds fan. So let's just see what Dusty does managing the Reds, before we are convinced that he's a mistake.

STOP TALKING ABOUT OPTIONS! YOU OBVIOUSLY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT HOW THEY WORK. -Geki

by Lonesome George on Feb 17, 2008 7:49 PM EST reply actions

PS

I don't think that Dusty smokes dope over Corey Patterson. He just never developed as was hoped for. That's why they were talking about Lofton. I think everybody concerned knows that Patterson is pretty much of a ML stiff at this point.

STOP TALKING ABOUT OPTIONS! YOU OBVIOUSLY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT HOW THEY WORK. -Geki

by Lonesome George on Feb 17, 2008 7:52 PM EST up reply actions

In his career...

..Corey Patterson has led off an inning 809 times. He's drawn 22 walks in those 809 plate appearances.

Leading off an inning for Dusty? 306 PAs. Nine walks. Nine. (That's a slightly better ratio than 22 in 809 but still it just makes you kinda wince when you see nine, doesn't it?)

Take a look around this dump. You're just a tourist with a typewriter. I live here.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 17, 2008 8:53 PM EST up reply actions

Can I have my utility belt back please?

I'm not superstitious...but I am a little stitious.

by Slyde on Feb 18, 2008 9:14 AM EST up reply actions

Gladly.

BTW, I was wondering about something...

I was checking out the Reds' game logs from last season and trying to determine exactly when it was that Cincinnati fell in love with the scraptastic Hopp n' Kepp duo and then I wanted to try to quantify exactly what those two little spark plugs did for the Reds' offense down the stretch and then I wanted to see if their contributions really amounted to anything other than some sticky messes in Marty's pants.

Here's what I found... On July 17 in Atlanta, Keppinger got his first start since May. He batted second. He played SS and 3B. He had a double, a walk, two RBI and he scored a run. The Reds won 6-5. It was what would be the second win in a modest four-game winning streak and was right in the middle of their little 10-of-14 tear they went on as Mackinin was taking over. So, let's call 7/17 the hypothetically precise and exact unscientific moment in the season when the Jeff Keppinger era began.

Hopper? I hadn't realy gotten that far yet. But he started leading off here and there beginning on August 1 and then became the every day lead off guy around September 1. (The Reds were something like 17-10 in August and 10-17 in September.)

Anyway, I then started Slyd-ing some numbers around and I think I discovered that yes, the Reds were scoring more runs after 7/17 (.28 per game if my math and my memory were/are correct) but the real reason for the Reds' limited increase in success might have been that the pitchers and the defense were allowing nearly .5 fewer runs per game. (Again, my math was not double-checked and I do not have the back of those envelopes in front of me this morning.)

So there's that. Is that anything? I was just wondering...

Take a look around this dump. You're just a tourist with a typewriter. I live here.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 18, 2008 9:56 AM EST up reply actions

Here's what I found

There were 27 games last year when both Hopper and Keppinger started and batted in the top 3 in the batting order. During those games, the Reds scored 4.44 R/G and surrendered 5.48 R/G. If you look at games when either batter started and batted in the first 3 positions in the order, the Reds scored 4.74 and gave up 5.51 R/G. Finally, if you look at games where neither of them batted in the first three positions in the order, the Reds scored 4.92 R/G and gave up 5.04 R/G.

Similarly, in games where either player started anywhere in the lineup: 4.67 RS/G, 5.49 RA/G. Games when neither player started: 5.01 RS/G, 5.01 RA/G.

So what's my point? The pitching is still the problem.

And, if you are still wondering when the Hopper and Keppinger thing became an official movement, it was August 9th when andromache dubbed them Hoppinger. It's not a movement without a name.

I'm not superstitious...but I am a little stitious.

by Slyde on Feb 18, 2008 11:07 AM EST up reply actions

Nicely done. Thanks.

Now I'll just go back to being the guy that posts funny pictures.

And other stuff.

Take a look around this dump. You're just a tourist with a typewriter. I live here.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 18, 2008 2:31 PM EST up reply actions

It's a'ight

I dig it when other people do research like that. It makes me feel better about myself to know that there are others who find that stuff somewhat interesting too. :)

But please don't ever stop the pictures. It would be a sad day if you did.

I'm not superstitious...but I am a little stitious.

by Slyde on Feb 18, 2008 5:50 PM EST up reply actions

I'll bowel to that, my liege...

I love sports. Whenever I can, I always watch the Detroit Tigers on the radio. Gerald R. Ford

by Madville on Feb 18, 2008 7:10 PM EST up reply actions

Don't want no walks a cloggin'

I love sports. Whenever I can, I always watch the Detroit Tigers on the radio. Gerald R. Ford

by Madville on Feb 18, 2008 7:07 PM EST up reply actions

Clogging is not for everyone.

Take a look around this dump. You're just a tourist with a typewriter. I live here.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 18, 2008 7:14 PM EST up reply actions

That's just the thing

If the Reds win this year, it's going to be because players develop and we finally have enough talent on the pitching staff to succeed, not because Dusty got the team to "try" hard enough. I can't really think of anyone on the Reds who has disappointed me with their work ethic (and if anyone has, it's probably Junior). I'm scared that if the Reds do win this year, Dusty is gonna get all the credit and stick around for quite a while -- and I maintain that every game managed by Dusty, if he is the same Dusty Baker he has been in the past (and there's been little to indicate that he's not), will be won despite him and not because of him. This town is so starved for a decent team that the first manager to coax one out is probably gonna get a 3 year free pass to suck it up. I don't want Dusty to be that manager.

by Geki on Feb 17, 2008 7:58 PM EST up reply actions

The Players

Yup. Better than 90% of the outcome is the players. But frankly, I've watched the Reds pretty much continuously since 1969, and the effort the last few years sometimes really stunk. I don't think that the players are dogging it, just that they aren't concentrating. I saw Austin Kearns muff a pretty routine pop-up (150 feet from my seat) in a game against the Cubs, just because I think he was distracted momentarily.
Felipe Lopez? The guy was a bad adventure at short stop. You never knew if his throws were going to be on target or not.
Jason Larue? Mr. Passed Ball; this guy was a mediocre catcher, AT BEST. Not a surprise that Krivsky went and got Ross in 2006.
Griffey was once a great CF, but his range has been decreasing steadily the last 5 years. Finally, they bit the bullet and put him in right in 2007. And he's struggling with that, too.
Dunn's a valuable slugger and offensive player, but he's got a glove that goes clank in the night. He's worked hard to make himself mediocre.
Josh Hamilton, a freakin' gazelle, a thing of beauty as an outfielder. Traded.

If anyone is not disapointed with the work ethic of this team, it may be because they don't have much to compare it too, in recent memory. I don't mean that as a personal criticism, just that we have become used to mediocre and sub-mediocre play, and justified it because of economics; "Cincinnati is a small market team".

"Never kick a fresh turd on a hot day" - Harry S. Truman

by Lonesome George on Feb 17, 2008 8:34 PM EST reply actions

Every player makes errors.

Austin Kearns is probably the best defensive RF in the game. Felipe Lopez, on the flip side, was and is simply a bad defender. By almost all accounts he would come in for extra infield work, he simply lacks the ability to throw the ball to the first baseman. Jason LaRue, by the time he left here, was actually a pretty good defender -- he cut down on the passed balls and retained his strong arm and excellent mobility behind the plate. That's a result of work. Adam Dunn is still a poor defender, but he certainly has improved. My issues with Griffey's work ethic have little to do with his on-field performance -- I'm just not entirely sure he does all he could to stay healthy off the field (i.e. proper stretching and staying in great shape).

Basically, criticizing work ethic is what morons seem to do when they don't like a player and want to make him look bad. See: Dunn haters, Edwin haters (look at the steps forward he's taken), and formerly the Kearns haters

by Geki on Feb 17, 2008 8:59 PM EST up reply actions

you have a right to be concerned

about Griffey's conditioning. In 2001 or 2002, he said something to the affect that he doesn't stretch and stretching is for cheetahs.

The Dusty path to the World Series!

by justin0070000 on Feb 18, 2008 1:07 AM EST up reply actions

who are you calling a cheetah?

Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on Feb 18, 2008 2:04 AM EST up reply actions

Obligatory cheesecake .jpg

Take a look around this dump. You're just a tourist with a typewriter. I live here.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 18, 2008 7:10 PM EST up reply actions

wow

who are those girls? they look marketable.

is it April yet?

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 18, 2008 7:57 PM EST up reply actions

Like the amazonian tribe

that ignored a helicopter because it did not fit into their cosmology, I will spend the Spring pretending the Reds don't have a manager.

I'm not saying I wouldn't go fishing with the man; all I'm saying is, if he comes near me, I'll put him in the wall.

by Man Mountain on Feb 18, 2008 9:48 AM EST reply actions

I was always a Dusty fan when he was a player.

But I am pretty concerned about whether he can manage a team with an 83 year old (that's right 83)right fielder, a 2 man rotation, a bunch of kids coming up for their first real taste of MLB, a less than average catching duo, a 3rd baseman who needs special love and attention and then there's Thom.

Good luck Dustman.

I love sports. Whenever I can, I always watch the Detroit Tigers on the radio. Gerald R. Ford

by Madville on Feb 18, 2008 12:36 PM EST reply actions

I don't think our 3B needs special love.

I think he just needs to not have special unlove, ala the bullshit he got from Narron.

by Geki on Feb 18, 2008 1:16 PM EST up reply actions

Griffey is only 83....

in "baseball years". Every year past 32 is really 10 "baseball years".

And you forgot that our potential starting Centerfielder has two personalities (or more?).

In other "news you can use", I read that Bret Boone is making a comeback this spring with (drum roll, please), the Washington Nationals. (cymbal!)

Aaron Boone, Bret Boone and Bob Boone; all working for Diamond Jim Bowden. So when everybody starts hatin' on Wayne Krivsky, just remember it could be worse. And at one time it was.

"Never kick a fresh turd on a hot day" - Harry S. Truman

by Lonesome George on Feb 18, 2008 3:30 PM EST up reply actions

Bret says that he has nothing to lose...

Well, Duh - personal pride and integrity aside - hell I could try out for the Washington Generals er...Senators ---whatever Jim has them named now.

Nothing wrong with a schizoid CF - remember the great Jimmy Piersal? With any lick at all Jay B------------- will take care of the center field dilemma in ST.

I love sports. Whenever I can, I always watch the Detroit Tigers on the radio. Gerald R. Ford

by Madville on Feb 18, 2008 3:40 PM EST up reply actions

I don't think Boone has much integrity left.

by Geki on Feb 18, 2008 4:19 PM EST up reply actions

Which Boone you talkin' 'bout boy?

I love sports. Whenever I can, I always watch the Detroit Tigers on the radio. Gerald R. Ford

by Madville on Feb 18, 2008 5:32 PM EST up reply actions

Boone, The Fallen House of

is it April yet?

by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 18, 2008 5:44 PM EST up reply actions

Christ on a hubcap...thats LUCK not lick.

I love sports. Whenever I can, I always watch the Detroit Tigers on the radio. Gerald R. Ford

by Madville on Feb 18, 2008 3:41 PM EST reply actions

Hey, is Sammy Sosa a free agent?

Take a look around this dump. You're just a tourist with a typewriter. I live here.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Feb 18, 2008 7:21 PM EST reply actions

Please

don't give anybody any ideas. If we're lucky, Dusty lost his phone number. Well, actually, he was pretty good last year against lefties. Wait, what am I saying?

"Just remember, it's not a lie if you believe it." - George Costanza

by beasleymachine on Feb 18, 2008 8:03 PM EST up reply actions