Time to wrap up Jay Hova?
Jay Bruce’s first season in the majors was somewhat of a letdown given the hype and his torrid start, but there are enough positive signs that most Reds fans, or at least those here, are happy knowing that Bruce will be a critical part of the lineup for the next several years. His didn't hit for a high average but he still hit with power (~200 ISO) and showed good instincts in RF despite a few lapses in judgment. Overall his line of 254/314/453 was good for a 96 OPS+ and a .328 wOBA, and he finished fifth in NL ROY voting. Bruce is 21, under team control for six more years, and isn't eligible for arbitration until the 2012 season. This is an enormous advantage for the club because it will pay him much, much less than he'd receive on the open market and because they don't have to commit to him for more than a year at a time.
With all that said, now may be the time to sign him to a long-term deal. More teams are locking elite arb and even pre-arb players into extensions that give the player financial stability and the team cost savings and certainty. Given his tepid rookie year, the economy, and most significantly the fact that he’s three seasons away from arbitration, this may seem like an odd time to negotiate. But I think for these and other reasons this is the ideal time:
- We’d be "buying low" in the sense that his future performance is expected to be much better than this past year. Bill James has him projected at 296/351/540 in 2009, which is a bit bullish but not out of line with general expectations for Jay.
- By offering Jay his first big pay day three years ahead of schedule, the Reds should get a significant discount. As one example Dustin Pedroia’s extension (6 years, $40.5 million) is worth something like a $25.8 million discount. And this was signed when he was still a year away from arbitration. As Jay didn’t come up until late May of this past year, he won’t be an arb-1 player until 2012 and likely won’t be eligible for Super 2 arbitration in 2011.
- Because other players like Pedroia have signed long-term extensions, there's already a market set that should make negotiations somewhat easier - especially for the team. Pedroia will be paid $3.5, $5.5, and $8 million for his arbitration years in 2010. Longoria is a better comp as he was often compared with Bruce before this year, signed his extension in his rookie year, and plays a position closer to Jay's on the defensive spectrum. Longoria will receive 6 years/$17.5 million plus three club option years which could bring it to $44.5 million for 9 years. FWIW Matt Sosnick, Jay’s agent, seems open to these kinds of deals because he negotiated a three-year extension for Dontrelle Willis last winter while Willis was still a year away from FA (and what a smart thing to do that was).
- I’m sure the Reds are somewhat reluctant to spend money given the economic climate, but that potentially gives them more leverage if Jay is interested in sacrificing his earnings upside for stability. Besides, I don't think it will be all doom and gloom for baseball over the next few years. Broadcasting contracts are locked in (at least nationally), and revenues from the new MLB network and the internet (MLBAM) should help cushion losses in ticket sales (BP article, subscription required).
Injury/performance risk is naturally the primary argument against a long-term deal. At least one player I can think of (Eric Hinske) that signed an extension didn’t work out like the team hoped. The injury risk doesn’t concern me because of Jay's position. It would be different if we were talking about a pitcher, catcher, or middle infielder as opposed to a corner OF. Also, Bruce doesn’t have any significant injuries in his past that I’m aware of and he doesn’t play in a style (Freel) that gives me pause.
My proposal – 7 years, $27.5 million, and a two-year team option for $10 million/year with a $3 million buyout. The breakout would be something like: $1 million signing bonus, 0.5 (2009), 0.75, 1.25, 2.0 (2012, arb-1), 4.5, 6.0, 8.5 (2015, FA-1), and then the team option which would bring it to $45 million for 9 years. The arb year amounts are the same as Longoria’s but they will occur a year later, which I think is a fair trade-off. Jay is undoubtedly sacrificing higher paydays in exchange for guaranteed money now, but he’ll only be 30 at the end of the contract and can still go for the big payday then.
Too soon? Other thoughts?
3 recs |
46 comments
Comments
rec'd
the Reds and Jay both would be crazy not to do something like this. i would propose a similar long-term deal to Votto, but for fewer years. he’s older and would probably want the chance at FA sooner. as you said, these kinds of deals rarely end ugly for the team and the player makes millions of dollars. its win-win.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 5, 2008 11:34 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I think this is a great idea too
Lock him up before the Cincinnati media gets to him and he starts to hate it here.
"My wife ain't never ran and got me no pheasant." - Fistbands
by BK on Dec 5, 2008 11:37 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I, too, think that Bruce should be wrapped up...
This place is like a sexy preschool.
by Gray on Dec 5, 2008 12:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Hear, Hear
Wrap it up, I’ll take it.
"I'd walk through hell in a gasoline suit to play baseball" - Pete Rose
by Officer Dibble on Dec 5, 2008 2:53 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
It's not time
The recent extensions of Braun, Pedroia and Longoria, have all fans looking at whether or not to extend a young player. To me signing young players is far more risky than it is worthwhile. Bruce, while a nice player with huge upside, is not yet in the class of the other three in terms of production.
by davidmp2 on Dec 5, 2008 4:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
which is exactly the reason to sign him
if you wait until he gets in that class, he’ll be more expensive. They are going to pay him something over the next 5 years. Might as well lock that number down now and you can know what to budget.
Why have I been blogging for so long? It's certainly not because of the paycheck. Because I could be making a lot more money as a doctor or a professional athlete.
by Slyde on Dec 5, 2008 5:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
production
has a great deal to do with age in the cases of these players. Braun and Pedroia were both 24 this year. that’s 3 full years older than Bruce. Longoria was 22, about a year and a half older than Bruce. one year is a huge amount of time at this age. Longoria is the closest to Bruce in age, so let’s compare them.
Bruce – .254/.314/.453 21 HRs, 33/110 BB/K
Longoria – .272/.343./.531 27 HRs, 46/122 BB/K
Longoria obviously had a better year, but one can reasonably assume that Bruce can match or exceed Longoria’s age 22 line. they aren’t completely dissimilar hitters, as they both K a bit and walk some, though not a ton. they both rely on SLG more than OBP.
but the biggest thing in Bruce’s favor is his historical comps. if he had played a full season’s worth of baseball, he likely would have hit 30+ HRs. here’s a list of the guys who have done that:
Eddie Matthews (47)
Albert Pujols (37)
Hal Trosky (35)
Miggy Cabrera (33)
Jose Canseco (33)
Jimmy Foxx (33)
Bob Horner (33)
Andruw Jones (31)
Ruben Sierra (30)
that’s it. can you count the Hall of Famers on that list? is that a class of production worthy of a long-term deal at an extremely favorable rate?
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 5, 2008 5:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The bigger risk to me is arbitration
Ryan Howard beat the Phillies last winter in his Super 2 arbitration and won $10 million. That’s more than Pedroia’s first two years of arb and close to what Longoria will make in all three arb years. That award may be an outlier but that’s part of my point – you maintain a lot of risk and forfeit cost certainty when you go to arbitration.
by ken on Dec 7, 2008 8:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you can get anywhere close
to Longoria’s deal you do it ASAP. Same olds for Votto.
I think alot of agents rightfully will not advise their clients to sign these types of contracts.
Longoria gave up in exess of 30 million for a little bit of security which probably could have been better managed via insurance(from career ending injury).
by davidmac84 on Dec 5, 2008 6:27 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Erardi had another interesting article
I found from RedlegNation.com. I’ll link it here.
For one, it’s the first time I’ve seen Erardi make personal attacks, this time on Yonder. For two, I really hope the Bruce-Votto buddy system works out a whole hell of a lot better than the Dunn-Kearns one.
...because there's already someone posing as Jacob Brumfield
by Cy Schourek on Dec 5, 2008 8:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that article left a bad taste in my mouth
by Red Menace on Dec 6, 2008 2:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
praising Votto by taking a shot at Alonso is Martyesque
What a picture of domestic tranquility... Hemlock on the hearth and my wife feeding the piranha.
by Man Mountain on Dec 6, 2008 12:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Me too Cy,
Although it has been heresy to say it here at RR – I never thought Kearns was going to be that great of a player. He’s got a very nice arm and shows a little power but he’s no Votto. Votto is a hitter first and a 1st baseman second. Bruce has the potential to make us forget Adam Dunn in due time. I am very optimistic that this duo will be extremely productive. I don’t have the stats yet to back this up, but I willing to bet that by the time Votto has three years of full time service he will have significantly outperformed Kearns offensively.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
Sir Winston Churchill
by Madville on Dec 6, 2008 7:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ray King broke AK
I remember seeing that play live and just saying “ewwwwwww”. Its never good when a big tub of goo sits on your top prospect. And AK was having a great season until that point. Surely Slyde will be able to post a pic of that event, right?~
by obc2 on Dec 7, 2008 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
unfortunately I've never been able to find that pic
but the collision with Ray King’s fat ass and the collision with the wall where he seriously injured his neck in consecutive seasons pretty much put the kibosh on Kearns’s star potential. Prior to his first injury in 2003, his batting line was .292/.388/.480 with 35 doubles, 28 HR, and 114 RBI in about a season and a month worth of plate appearances as a 22-23 year old player. This following up a minor league career to that point where he hit .283/.380/496 in nearly 1500 plate appearances. I think he and Joey Votto are very good comps, but Kearns was doing what he did at 2-years younger than Votto. I don’t think he would have been a superstar, but given that he’s a very good defender still, he would have been someone to build the franchise around before Ray King’s fat ass got involved.
Why have I been blogging for so long? It's certainly not because of the paycheck. Because I could be making a lot more money as a doctor or a professional athlete.
by Slyde on Dec 7, 2008 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he would have been a multiple all-star
with a few seasons of greatness (which would probably be occurring right now), and would have been productive for many years.
if it weren’t for his September hamstring injury he would have probably won Rookie of the Year in 2002.
"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can’t think of at least two ways to spell any word."-Andy Jack
by justin007000 on Dec 7, 2008 5:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is a guy the Reds....
don’t want to lose. I was really impressed by him this year when I saw him play and the Reds have a true treasure here. The Reds need to sign him long-term. Do you think they can do so without breaking the bank though? Especially if he has a agent who will tell him he can get a lot more on the open market if he waits?
Here is where I turn to all of you and ask about him as a player for I don’t have the following information. Is he a player who puts the team first, wanting to win? Or is he like some others who have a ton of talent and are looking for the big paycheck down the road and to heck with team goals? These could be key factors in how the Reds have to deal with him. Thank you in advance for any information you share with me on this.
Excellent fan post! I gave it a rec for this sure brings up a lot of good points about the Reds future and gives a person like me who is learning more about the Reds a lot of information to deepen my knowledge. I deeply appreciate such posts. :)
People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.-Rogers Hornsby
by thegashousegang on Dec 6, 2008 9:06 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
When he came up
There were a lot of articles about how his upbringing wouldn’t allow him to be an egotistical ass, this is the only one I could find this morning. He seems to be the real deal both in talent and work ethic, my only worry with him is that the lack of decent coaches in the Reds system might hinder his development some.
I’d sign him this coming summer as long as he doesn’t regress, which I don’t think he will. I’m also a huge fan of Votto, guys with his kind of all around hitting skills don’t come around that often. The LCF gap at Great American was made for him.
"Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est."
by jch24 on Dec 6, 2008 10:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but the REDS are going to keep him at first base!
Reds fan for 40 years!
by gejoe on Dec 6, 2008 11:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The more I learn about him the more I am impressed....
a long term leader to build the Reds around with the right kind of work ethic, attitude and with all the talent in the world! The Reds need to sign him long-term asap. Ballplayers like him are rare nowadays!
People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.-Rogers Hornsby
by thegashousegang on Dec 7, 2008 9:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hey chesirecat,
anyway you could hook me up with four tickets for the inauguration.
"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can’t think of at least two ways to spell any word."-Andy Jack
by justin007000 on Dec 6, 2008 5:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
already asked him
so you may have to pry them out of my fingers…(not really, I’m not that big of a politics fan)
But seriously, justin, let me know if you end up in DC.
...because there's already someone posing as Jacob Brumfield
by Cy Schourek on Dec 7, 2008 12:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it is looking that way
at worst I will be one of the 48 million people packed into the Mall. I am driving out with three friends, and we know somebody who knows somebody who lives in Baltimore and will give us the honor of sleeping on their floor. So we can take the 5:15 train from Baltimore to DC the morning of..
"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can’t think of at least two ways to spell any word."-Andy Jack
by justin007000 on Dec 7, 2008 12:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So
anybody watching Alabama vs. Flordia? Good game.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on Dec 6, 2008 6:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The Pale Hose
Still hot for Homer?
From the Chicago Tribune:
According to a major-league source, Williams has asked one of his scouts about touted Cincinnati Reds right-hander Homer Bailey, whose development hit a speed bump last year. That could help the Sox because, after all, Floyd benefited from a change of scenery, and several teams might have run out of patience with their prospects.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on Dec 7, 2008 6:24 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
live and let dye
how horriable a ss is alexi? sigh pipe dreams
by SadbutTrue on Dec 7, 2008 7:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There goes Edwin's spot
on the D.R.‘s WBC team. Hope you’re happy, BubbaFan.
by ken on Dec 7, 2008 8:59 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
he's not a true Yankee
she doesn’t care about him, I’m sure.
Why have I been blogging for so long? It's certainly not because of the paycheck. Because I could be making a lot more money as a doctor or a professional athlete.
by Slyde on Dec 7, 2008 9:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I admit
I’m a little tired of hearing about A-Rod. This story has been all over the NY papers for days now (not least because he changed his mind about which team he was going to play for so many times last time).
Then there’s all the stories about how he’s boinking Madonna. He was seen backstage! He’s doing charity work while he follows her concert tour! He’s getting bored with Kabbalah, which is ticking off Madonna! They say they’re just friends, not romantically invovled!
It almost makes me wish we could go back to reading about Roger Clemens’ hiney…
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on Dec 7, 2008 9:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Roger Clemens is a butt
There ya go.
by Brendanukkah on Dec 7, 2008 10:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
oh god
the reds really are owned by evil
"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can’t think of at least two ways to spell any word."-Andy Jack
by justin007000 on Dec 7, 2008 1:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
A Republican pulls the strings behind Reds?
Looks like the wet dreams of Zai ul-Haq were correct.
...because there's already someone posing as Jacob Brumfield
by Cy Schourek on Dec 7, 2008 4:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it isn't so much that he is a Republican
I don’t think all Republican politicians are evil, but I think Ken Blackwell is evil.
"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can’t think of at least two ways to spell any word."-Andy Jack
by justin007000 on Dec 7, 2008 5:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I know Ken and Rosa Blackwell.
Ken is not evil. Misguided, confused and superstitious – yes…but not evil. Ken & Rosa are hard working people who, like many Republicans, strongly believe that they ‘play the game the right way’. I don’t agree with Ken politically or religiously…he really believes that Barack Obama is the ‘anti-christ’. He’s read too many of the ‘Left Behind’ books.
If Blackwell should somehow become chairman of the GOP…it could well be the end of the party as we know it. He represents the arm of the party that loves Palin and her rhetoric. The GOP would divide into two parties: The old time moderate Christine Whitman/Goldwater folks VS the Neo-con zealots.
BTW Ken is a very accomplished amateur floral arranger.

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
Sir Winston Churchill
by Madville on Dec 8, 2008 9:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
latent homosexual
using his policies to try and hide it from himself and the world?
"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can’t think of at least two ways to spell any word."-Andy Jack
by justin007000 on Dec 8, 2008 9:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We ll he is a great floral arranger
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
Sir Winston Churchill
by Madville on Dec 8, 2008 9:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe not evil
but has certainly done evil things. We all have. But at some point the two become indistinguishable.
by ctnyc on Dec 10, 2008 1:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I probably should add that I know NOTHING about Ohio politics
and VERY LITTLE about US politics in general, unfortunately. I’m too busy reading wikipedia articles on Romany (aka Gypsies) and generally being much lamer than you were when you were 21. I’m just making snarky comments about the Muslim Awakening in ’79. You know, before I was alive.
Apologies accepted?
...because there's already someone posing as Jacob Brumfield
by Cy Schourek on Dec 8, 2008 8:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of Ohio politics,
did anyone follow this race? A friend worked on the campaign for the Democratic candidate, who “rallied” to win by less than a percent.
by ken on Dec 9, 2008 7:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i get columbus tv in ada
so i saw her commercials but nothing beyond that.
"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can’t think of at least two ways to spell any word."-Andy Jack
by justin007000 on Dec 9, 2008 8:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He and Votto NEED to be locked up
thats the future of the team.
As many years as you can do…do it. A Longoria deal is a bit longer than I think most players would take, but if you could get that level, great.
Bruce also came off what should be the worst year he’ll ever have, so the value might be at it’s lowest (the price would be higher if the Reds waited til after Bruce put up a .300/.355/.550 line
by NeifiChicken on Dec 8, 2008 7:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

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