Taveras Will Leadoff, but Then What?
Now that the Reds have their lead off man and centerfielder, the starting lineup we should see on Opening Day is pretty much in place. Jocketty still wants a right-handed left fielder, but aside from that it appears we have our starting 9. This means we can play around with Baseball Musings Lineup Tool and get a ballpark on how the offense as Dusty sees it might do next year. If you aren't familiar with the Lineup Tool, it's incredibly accessible and can easily burn up a slow morning at work. Just click the link and follow the directions. Just input the OBP and SLG for 9 players and it will tell you how many runs that lineup will score for you, as well as the most and least efficient lineups for those players. I especially love it because even the least sabr-inclined can use it and understand it. It's rocket science for kids.
So since we know 8 of our starting 9, I thought it would be interesting to see how it would all work out. I averaged together the OBP and SLG projections provided by CHONE, Marcel, and Bill James (Marcel and James projections can be found on the respective player's FanGraphs page) and stuck them into the lineup tool.
Here's the lineup I came up with, which should score us 4.506 runs per game, or ~730 runs over 162 games (projected OBP/SLG in parentheses):
Taveras CF (.331/.340)
Gonzalez SS (.314/.419)
Bruce RF (.340/.504)
Left Fielder LF (.340/.480)
Votto 1B (.372/.508)
Phillips 2B (.321/.445)
Encarnacion 3B (.356/.476)
Hernandez C (.326/.421)
Harang P (.130/.148) - I just used Harang's numbers from last year
A couple of things on the construction of the lineup: I'm pulling it totally out of my ass, and I should explain a few things. Based on the way Dusty filled out the lineup card last year, I think Gonzo will probably hit 2nd. He's the SS and since the CF is hitting 1st, Gonzo should hit 2nd. You know this. Also, Bruce hit 3rd for a while after Jr left, and Dusty has stated that he thinks Bruce is a 3 hole hitter. Dusty could easily flip Bruce and Votto though. Call it a toss up. The right-handed left fielder will most assuredly fall in between Bruce and Votto. Gotta defend against the LOOGY. I put BP ahead of EdE because I think that is precisely how Dusty sees them, but again, it's a judgement call. BP could just as easily hit 2nd as well. That leaves the catcher and pitcher, which we all know must hit 8th and 9th.
Since we aren't sure who may be starting in left field for us, I'm working on the completely unscientific assumption that our mystery left fielder will OBP .340 and SLG .480 (for an OPS of .820, which is a bit below average for a LF and may or may not be optimistic). You can plug in projections for any plausible left fielder you like (Dye projects as .335/.500, Baldelli projects as .329/.464, Wigginton .336/.469, Nady .335/.469). But basically it doesn't really change the final numbers any significant amount.
Of course, the Lineup Tool knows nothing of stolen bases, so the most sexy asset Taveras brings to the table does not show up here. But as the esteemed Dan Szymborski of BTF fame explained to me a few days ago, those stolen bases aren't worth as much as we would hope when equated into OPS. Sure it helps, but learning to walk would help more.
As for the optimal lineup for this group of players, I was pretty surprised by the results. Here's how they stack up in a perfect world:
EdE
Votto
BP
LF
Bruce
Hernandez
Taveras
Gonzalez
Harang
Surprise, surprise - EdE should be leading off and Taveras is batting 7th. The most shocking thing though is that this optimized lineup scores 4.576 runs a game, or 0.07 more runs than my Dustified lineup. That really isn't much at all. The good thing to take away from that is Dusty's lineup isn't a complete joke. The bad thing to take away from that is even in their most efficient order, this team isn't going to score many runs.
So what does this tell us? Well, 4.5 runs isn't awful, but really not any better than last year. And this lineup will not play all 162 games together in the same exact lineup, so 4.5 runs is pretty optimistic. You still have to account for things like injuries, pinch-hitters, Dusty bunts, Hoppinger, and so on. So basically, I'm not really telling you anything you didn't already know, but hey, it was fun wasn't it? Try out the lineup tool yourself and see what your prefered/expected lineup will produce. Oh, and let's hope the pitching is lights-out.
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Comments
Is there anyone else that's glad Taveras will be leading off, rather than batting lower in the order?
Yes, his OBP is for shit, but his style of hitting is based in large part off of beating out infield hits with his speed. But what if he’s hitting with a runner on first, or runners on first and second? His speed might keep them from turning a double play, but it would seem that his style of hitting has a better chance of eliminating the lead runner (who won’t be as fast and whose base won’t be as far away), and will be of little use driving in runners unless they’re already on third.
I think he might actually do less damage as a leadoff table-setter than if he was batting in say the 7th spot with runners ahead of him. Basically, it will be like Norris Hopper in 2007 when he had something like 28 hits with runners in scoring position, but only 4 RBI.
by Brendanukkah on Dec 31, 2008 8:42 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
yeah
he’s an 8th hitter, or better yet, a 9th hitter with the pitcher batting 8th. The key is that he should be put where his at bats have the least impact on trying to drive runners in. He’s a lot like Norris Hopper in that respect. He has 97 hits with RISP in his career, but only 72 RBI in those situations. Hopper has 24 such hits and only 13 RBI in those situations.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
by Slyde on Dec 31, 2008 8:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, but I wonder how many more baserunner's he'd have batting 9th with the pitcher and hernandez in front of him
I think he’d be better off well back in the lineup. Oh man, what a lineup if (when) we have Hopper and Taveras in at the same time. That’s quite a one-two punch. Because I know Dusty’s going to bat them first and second. It’s just true.
Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.
by andromache on Dec 31, 2008 10:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent Post Charlie!
Quick request. Can you make this post have at “Click here to read the rest” link? It’s very long on the front page.
Think of me what you will...I gotta little space to fill
by chandrathan on Dec 31, 2008 8:46 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Thanks Chuck!
Think of me what you will...I gotta little space to fill
by chandrathan on Dec 31, 2008 9:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
of all the charlie scrabbles in the world,
you’re the charlie scrabbliest.
by bbjones on Dec 31, 2008 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
FWIW
Using the WAR projections that I’ve done, I had the Reds projected at 734 runs (4.53 R/G) next year with the current roster, assuming a similar run environment to 2008. That’s pretty much league average, but when you account for the park they play in, it’s below average.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
by Slyde on Dec 31, 2008 8:57 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
yeah the WAR projections are more accurate
but i couldnt use those in the lineup tool. they are close enough so i figured it was a wash. i really wanted to focus more on the fact that Willy is much better suited for the bottom of the order and that this team needs more than one new bat to become competitive. we’ve heard all that before, but its fun to play with the lineup.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 31, 2008 9:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is great
And it gave me an idea. 4.5 runs per game is not a ton, so I started wondering just what more we might need to really make it. By comparison, your world champion Phillies scored 4.93 R/G last year.
Assuming the Reds acquire Manny Ramirez (I’m telling you, any day now), I put him into our vacant LF and used the same method Charlie did. Manny’s average projections are .400/.540.
Here’s the Dusty-type lineup Charlie used:
Taveras
Gonzalez
Bruce
Manny
Votto
Phillips
EdE
Hernandez
Pitcher
This lineup only netted an average 4.61 R/G, not a terrific improvement over a lineup with the slightly sub-par LF Charlie used (4.506 R).
However, the optimized lineup was pretty astonishing:
Manny
Votto
Hernandez
Bruce
EdE
BP
Gonzo
Pitcher
Taveras
I was surprised to see Manny batting leadoff in 8 of the top 10 lineups (in the other 2 he bats second). But this lineup averages 4.939 R!
It’s pretty obvious that all we need to do is pony up the money to get Manny and let this computer configure our lineup every day.
Youth wins games; veteran presence wins championships!
by ben nevis on Dec 31, 2008 9:44 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I know this is the optimal lineup
But I think I would have a hard time not flipping my shit if I saw Hernandez in the three hole in a lineup.
by Brendanukkah on Dec 31, 2008 10:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But can the lineup computer gnaw on a toothpick?

Advantage Dusty!
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 31, 2008 1:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Bradley will be our Left fielder
I had a dream last night that Walt was giving a press conference saying we had signed Bradley. The contract was for 5 years with 2 team options. Walt said it was the only way to get him signed.
by CamIam on Dec 31, 2008 10:13 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
that's a nightmare not a dream lol
I guess if the reds pick up both options, they might see 3 years of production. If it was 2008 Bradley it might be worth it but anyone who blows a knee out arguing a not real close call at first scares me.
by SadbutTrue on Dec 31, 2008 11:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Walt better move fast
WGN is reporting (according to Bleed Cubbie Blue) that the Cubs are “close” to signing Bradley. I wonder if this means if they’re out of the Dunn sweepstakes.
by Brendanukkah on Dec 31, 2008 11:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of which
I think the problem many in the organization had with Dunn was they thought he was overpaid. If his stock has fallen as far as many people think, why not try to resign him for 8 or 9 million a year? Other than him not being clutch and hating baseball I mean.
Bruce Bonser? Boone Bonser? Boot Bonser? BOOSE BONZER?
by Lakeman on Dec 31, 2008 2:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
eh
The money was an issue at the end, but I think the batting average and strikeouts were dealkillers from day one.
by Red Menace on Jan 1, 2009 3:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just read over on ESPN.com rumors
that the Nationals had the highest offer in on Bradley. If that is the case and he signs with them maybe we could get one of Bowden’s outfielders. I wonder if they would part with Milledge, Dukes, or Kearns.
by CamIam on Dec 31, 2008 2:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Or we could pick up Adam Dunn when they sign him, too.
Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.
by andromache on Dec 31, 2008 8:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice
Great post here. However, we all know that stats like this are meaningless in the face of pure gut feeling.
Too bad Dusty’s guts have shit for brains.
Phone's ringing, Dude.
by rjdio on Dec 31, 2008 11:42 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I took a look at the Markov Chain spreadsheet that THT included with last year's annual
The best lineup I can come up with (using Marcels and averaging Dickerson and Hopper as LF) is:
1. Taveras
2. LF (Hopperson)
3. Bruce
4. Votto
5. EdE
6. BP
7. Gonzalez
8. Hernandez
9. Pitcher
Their expected runs is 4.45 per game or 722 for the season. I can’t find a lineup that performs better with Taveras in a spot other than lead-off. His lack of power actually makes lead-off the ideal position since he’ll have the most ABs without runners on base, I think.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
by Slyde on Dec 31, 2008 2:28 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
without doing any calculations
the only other idea I would try is to put him 9th, after the C and P. That would minimize total plate appearances, and also raise the probability that he doesn’t have anyone on base ahead of him.
Still, though… if runs were uncorrelated with each other (which they aren’t) then the 1-sigma statistical variation would be about 0.15 runs/game (~sqrt(730)/162). So, trying to optimize anything at a finer level than +/- 0.15 is probably going to be lost in the noise.
by bbjones on Dec 31, 2008 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, the thing is
he’s not the worst projected OBP, though he is the worst projected OPS. Marcel projects lower OBP for BP, Hernandez, and Gonzalez. Even Bruce is only a point higher in projected OBP. This is all to say that the Reds are really hurting for players that don’t make outs at this point.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
by Slyde on Dec 31, 2008 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ouch
I know it’s become some sort of ‘thing’ with the statheads here not liking BP as much as the average fan, but when his OBP projects worse than whipping-boy Taveras that shows something, right?
…Right?
by Red Menace on Jan 1, 2009 3:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
In BP's defense
He can actually hit the ball out of the infield.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
by Slyde on Jan 1, 2009 9:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
who is the weaker hitter
Willy or Izturis? And what’s the best measure for wimpiness…XBH/AB or SLG or SLG-BA or ???
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
by PeteyHendrix on Jan 1, 2009 5:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
probably SLG-BA
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
by Slyde on Jan 1, 2009 7:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Walt should put this in a Taveras press release
“Taveras will bat leadoff for us, not because he can get on base — to the contrary — his slugging is so poor that we had to find a place in the lineup where he can do the least damage. Have I mentioned that we were fortunate enough to lock him up for 2 years at 6.25 million? Thank God we were only bidding against ourselves”
All Mickey Mouse films are founded on the motif of leaving home in order to learn what fear is.
by Man Mountain on Jan 1, 2009 1:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
kinda incidental
but I don’t understand what good comes from Votto 5. Did the Reds really enjoy hitting Dunn 5th all those years?
Look, Votto OPSed .833 vs. .900 against Lefties and Righties, respectively. So he can hit behind Bruce. Or hit Bruce behind him. Either way, shouldn’t the Reds try to get their best players the most at bats? Is this so confusing?
...because there's already someone posing as Jacob Brumfield
by Cy Schourek on Dec 31, 2008 3:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Using Chone projections and Plugging in Swisher
and Keppinger at SS get us to 4.757. Not far off the Rays 4.778 mark for 2008. This assumes Taveras will bat 9th all year. Did I do something wrong (other than insert a player we don’t have)?
I got to go down to the stadium and whip batteries at the players on both teams. - Philly Boy Roy
by RijoSaboCaseyWKRP on Dec 31, 2008 4:48 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
You assumed Willy would not be leading off, when he will be.
How many wins does that cost us?
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 31, 2008 5:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and Keppinger getting a majority of playing time at SS
would be disasterous. he bat is better than Gonzo’s, but his glove is awful enough to negate any gains made with the bat.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jan 2, 2009 5:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yep
according to the projected WAR, Gonzalez has slightly more value in slightly less playing time despite the fact that Kepp’s bat is worth about 5 more runs over the course of a season.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
by Slyde on Jan 2, 2009 5:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
projected lineup
Honestly, that proposed lineup would be lucky to get us to .500. The Reds should never have signed Taveras. They’d be better off letting Stubbs play cf. Strikes out a lot, but better defense and ops. Why would Bruce hit 3rd? Votto was our best hitter last year, he should hit. 3rd. Jay Bruce might be a franchise player someday, but he hasn’t earned the right to hit 3rd because he is tabbed a phenom, Bruce should hit 5th. Phillips is a 6 hitter. Team needs a veteran bat in the middle to drive in runs and hopefully provide capable defense. Abreu would work. A trade for Nady, despite free agency, would work. The young guys need some protection in the lineup, you need a veteran bat for that. The lineup proposed will be ok offensively and below average defensively. Fantastic!
by ericdavis44 on Jan 11, 2009 12:35 AM EST reply actions 0 recs






















