A surplus of available corner outfielders? Why this might be a good year to acquire one
Supply and demand - any economist will tell you that in a free market, this is what determines a price. As the government has not yet taken over MLB, we have a free agency free market. As a player in this market, I'd sure like to be any position other than an outfielder.
Supply Side:
Free agents with OPS > .800 include: Manny Ramirez, Pat Burrell, Adam Dunn, Milton Bradley, Raul Ibanez, Cliff Floyd, Bobby Abreu, Jim Edmonds, Rocco Baldelli (in 28 games), Jerry Hairston, and Casey Blake (though he'll likely play 3rd).
Granted, all of these players have flaws, ranging from Manny being Manny, low BA's lots of K's and bad defense for Burrell and Dunn, age with Ibanez and Floyd, injury issues with Bradley and Baldelli, and, is Hairston really on this list? Really?
Of the above free agents, only Ramirez, Bradley, Ibanez, and Blake were offered arbitration, meaning the 'only' cost of a free agent is money. This means that teams like the Reds who should value draft picks won't lose one from signing most of these free agents.
Potential trade targets: Names that have popped up as potentially being available for trade include Jermaine Dye, Brian Giles, Xavier Nady, Magglio Ordonez, and one of the St. Louis outfielders (Ankiel and Ludwick).
From the trade targets, we have a team that looks like they'll suck next year (Padres), a team that looks like it's in sell-off mode (White Sox), a team where jobs are being lost like crazy (Tigers), a team that wants to get a young outfielder up (Cards), and a team with excess outfielders (Yankees). And I'm sure there are many more available outfielders than those I mentioned.
Demand Side:
We've read numerous sportswriters say that they're seeing the market affecting free agent salaries due to lower projected revenues from ticket sales and corporate sponsorships. Even the Yankees, moving into their goldmine of a park, seem to be affected (Ken Rosenthal brings up the fact that the Mets, Yankees, Jets, and Giants all move into a new ballpark in the coming 20 months). Other teams will take a double hit, due to reduced ticket sales and reduced revenue sharing from the Yankees as the Yankees can deduct operating costs of the new ballpark from local revenue, meaning less $$ in the revenue sharing pool from its biggest contributor.
The current market conditions seem to be making teams hesitant not only to sign free agents, but to offer arbitration to their own free agents who look likely to get multi-year deals (an aside, that Dunn trade looks like a steal now, doesn't it?). Additionally, teams are looking at their own payroll and financial flexibility, and seem to be favoring younger (i.e. less expensive) players. This, too, lowers demand for the middle-age and older free agents.
Teams appear to be wanting to control costs and unload expensive ballplayers. Additionally, teams are valuing younger players more. From the trades of Matt Holliday and Nick Swisher, it appears that even trading for an outfielder will cost less in terms of prospects than it would have in other offseasons.
The end result will be depressed player costs for the corner outfielders, both via trade and via free agency. This is not going to be the case for many other positions - SS, 2B, CF, C, SP - where there seems to either be a dearth of quality players available, or a never-ending need for quality players (SP).
Should the Reds pull the trigger on one of the bigger-names available?
This is where the GM gets paid to do his job. I'm a firm believer that in baseball, one player does not make a huge difference. We're looking for a corner outfielder to replace Adam Dunn, whose annual 40 HR, 100 BB, 100 RBI is not overlooked here as it is on certain local radio stations.
If adding one outfielder is all we do, are we basically back at the team we had in the middle of last year? Do we end up just hoping Cueto and Harang improve on last year's numbers and that Volquez's 2008 was no fluke? We've been there and done that - see 2008, where we signed 1 big-name player who came in and did fix the problem the team had the prior year, but didn't get us much closer to contention.
I don't like the sign 1 player and hope the rest improve strategy. My opinion is that if we can only add a corner outfielder, we better improve the team somewhere else (shortstop, catcher, 3B defense, starting pitching depth). Otherwise, I'll pass - despite a favorable buyers market..
8 recs |
69 comments
Comments
Buy low...
Although you say you’d rather pass, it seems like all indications are that the Reds ought to pull the trigger on one of these outfielders. Prices should be down this off season, particularly for corner OFs, so to refrain from buying now would come back to haunt us in the future. Of course this isn’t the only piece we need, but we ought to be able to pick up one these guys now, while the market’s saturated.
My guess is that teams are kind of holding off on these types of players (guys who in the past would have cost a fortune) for now to see what kinds of deals they receive. Once one of them goes, however, market price will have been established (more or less) and I assume they’ll fly off the shelves at that point. So if I’m Walt, I’m either hoping one of them takes one of my low offers and starts the stampede or I’m waiting till one gets bought up and then I’m real active trying to get one of the others quick (unless the price is far too high).
Youth wins games; veteran presence wins championships!
by ben nevis on Dec 3, 2008 1:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Good analysis JJ.
rec’d and promote’d
"My wife ain't never ran and got me no pheasant." - Fistbands
by BK on Dec 3, 2008 2:02 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Great job
Minor aside: Dunn not being offered arbitration doesn’t make the deal any better for the Reds. We still give and get the same pieces. It makes it worse for the DBacks and better for whomever ultimately signs Dunn.
by Red Menace on Dec 3, 2008 2:59 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
My fear with going outfield first
is that it makes it harder to reshuffle the current pieces for improvement. I’d rather they acquire a 3B and then have the option to trade or shift EdE. If they go outfield first, their only option if they want to improve 3B defense is to trade EdE and acquire a 3B.
‘Tis a better strategy to maintain internal flexibility as much as possible and acquiring an outfielder doesn’t do that. So, I guess we’re in agreement, JJ.
Why have I been blogging for so long? It's certainly not because of the paycheck. Because I could be making a lot more money as a doctor or a professional athlete.
by Slyde on Dec 3, 2008 3:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't it seem
like one of the hallmarks of a smart organization is a willingness to shift players down the defensive spectrum? The Reds just never seem to be creative when it comes to finding ways for their best players to play.
by Red Menace on Dec 3, 2008 3:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well
the Rays went the other way and moved BJ Upton to CF and Iwamura to 2B from 3B. Maybe the Reds should move BP to CF and EdE to 2b?
Why have I been blogging for so long? It's certainly not because of the paycheck. Because I could be making a lot more money as a doctor or a professional athlete.
by Slyde on Dec 3, 2008 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Eh,
They had to move Upton, he was a terrible second baseman.
by DisplacedFan on Dec 3, 2008 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the point is
that moving from 2B to CF is actually moving up the defensive spectrum. The move defied traditional logic, but it worked.
Why have I been blogging for so long? It's certainly not because of the paycheck. Because I could be making a lot more money as a doctor or a professional athlete.
by Slyde on Dec 3, 2008 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I shouldn't have focused on the spectrum so much
The point is they juggle players around to find something that works. It seems to me that the Reds have been extremely conservative in that regard.
by Red Menace on Dec 3, 2008 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
your point wasn't missed by me
I was just being silly by bringing up the Rays.
Speaking of which, maybe the Reds should change their name to the Devil Reds for a few years so that they can change it back and become good.
Why have I been blogging for so long? It's certainly not because of the paycheck. Because I could be making a lot more money as a doctor or a professional athlete.
by Slyde on Dec 3, 2008 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Imagine the heel turn if they'd go from the Reds to the Red Devils!
…in England.
by Brendanukkah on Dec 3, 2008 3:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
heel turn?
what is this 1980’s NWA int he Carolinsa?
Think of me what you will...I gotta little space to fill
by chandrathan on Dec 3, 2008 3:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's because the Reds just sign tons of utility guys
Why try moving Edwin to the outfield when you’ve got guys like Chris Stynes, Ryan Freel, Jeff Keppinger, Jerry Hairston, or “shortstop” Jolbert Cabrera that can handle it?
by Brendanukkah on Dec 3, 2008 3:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jolbert will be one of those players that astounds me in 10 years
The Reds picked up a 35 year old utility outfielder who hasn’t really played in the bigs since the 90’s…and plays him at shortstop! This has to be the only team that does that. Geez, I mean, they could’ve given Barry Larkin a 10-day contract or something if it was that important. I’m gonna tell my grandkids about him one day (not in 10 years, though)
...because there's already someone posing as Jacob Brumfield
by Cy Schourek on Dec 3, 2008 10:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Curious
Is it really up the defensive spectrum? Seems like it made obvious sense to move a fast guy who couldn’t catch grounders to the outfield. I seem to remember other people maybe Neyer writing about it the year before. I thought Upton’s move to the OF was inevitable.
by DisplacedFan on Dec 3, 2008 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's probably more of a lateral move than an upward move (though moving from 3B to 2B is upward)
I think the spectrum goes something like SS-2B-CF-3B-RF-LF-1B-DH, but I think that 2B and CF are somewhat equal in footing. I think the idea is that athletically they are similar in difficulty, but they use different skillsets.
And I don’t disagree that the move for BJ was necessarily weird, just that moving from 2B to CF is a bit unorthodox.
Why have I been blogging for so long? It's certainly not because of the paycheck. Because I could be making a lot more money as a doctor or a professional athlete.
by Slyde on Dec 3, 2008 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Craig Biggio?
C-2B-CF?
"Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est."
by jch24 on Dec 3, 2008 3:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but craig biggio is an all american hero
that should be worshipped by all…
/george grande’d
Think of me what you will...I gotta little space to fill
by chandrathan on Dec 3, 2008 3:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
oh yeah
I forgot one example means it is commonplace.
Why have I been blogging for so long? It's certainly not because of the paycheck. Because I could be making a lot more money as a doctor or a professional athlete.
by Slyde on Dec 3, 2008 3:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
oh and
is it just me or did PediPaws – the Amazing Pet Nail Trimmer – miss the boat on an even better name of PediFile?
Why have I been blogging for so long? It's certainly not because of the paycheck. Because I could be making a lot more money as a doctor or a professional athlete.
by Slyde on Dec 3, 2008 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Billy Mays has been rocking my shit lately
He definitely responded to the threat from Shamwow Vince by upping his visibility.
by Red Menace on Dec 3, 2008 4:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Alfonso Soriano knows where centerfield is
That way!

(Yes, he mostly plays left field, but he has played in center, too).
by Brendanukkah on Dec 3, 2008 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yep, 100 innings in CF
boy do I have egg on my face.
Why have I been blogging for so long? It's certainly not because of the paycheck. Because I could be making a lot more money as a doctor or a professional athlete.
by Slyde on Dec 3, 2008 3:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey now
I never said it was commonplace, I was just mentioning someone else that did it, Mr. Snarkypants. :)
What was the reasoning for Biggio’s multiple moves, anyway? I honestly don’t remember.
"Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est."
by jch24 on Dec 3, 2008 4:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
1 part team player, 2 parts scrappiness, 1 part hustle
1 part just trying to get his nasty helmet on the field and away from the manager.
by Brendanukkah on Dec 3, 2008 4:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A helmet
that emphasized just how small his head was also.
by Pops Daniels on Dec 3, 2008 4:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it was because teams ran on him like crazy
And also they wanted his bat in the lineup more frequently.
Why have I been blogging for so long? It's certainly not because of the paycheck. Because I could be making a lot more money as a doctor or a professional athlete.
by Slyde on Dec 3, 2008 4:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
oh oh
and we should also find a guy like Carlos Pena. are there any guys like that around now?
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 3, 2008 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Last seen playing in the Korean Minor Leagues
Dusty ruined him with the Cubs by making him run into Kerry Wood and giving him a concussion. Dusty really hates young players that much.
Why have I been blogging for so long? It's certainly not because of the paycheck. Because I could be making a lot more money as a doctor or a professional athlete.
by Slyde on Dec 3, 2008 3:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i always thought Dusty ruined him
by playing guy they got from the Dodgers in a trade over Choi.
"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can’t think of at least two ways to spell any word."-Andy Jack
by justin007000 on Dec 3, 2008 3:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just ain't true
Choi played most of the year before he got hurt.
Why have I been blogging for so long? It's certainly not because of the paycheck. Because I could be making a lot more money as a doctor or a professional athlete.
by Slyde on Dec 3, 2008 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
by most of the year, you mean 80 games and his 55 games started.
compared to Karros’s 114, games, 84 games started.
The injury occurred on June 7th.
To say that ruined him is a bit outrageous, but it was time he could have been developing instead of rotting.
"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can’t think of at least two ways to spell any word."-Andy Jack
by justin007000 on Dec 3, 2008 3:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Choi played in 49 of the team's first 60 games before he was injured
not bad for a player that never showed he could hit lefties. After his injury he batted .164/.263/.269 while Karros batted .282/.330/.416 on a team that was trying to make the playoffs. Who would you have played?
Why have I been blogging for so long? It's certainly not because of the paycheck. Because I could be making a lot more money as a doctor or a professional athlete.
by Slyde on Dec 3, 2008 3:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You can blame Jim Tracy just as much
He started Choi only about a third of the time in Choi’s 1.5 years in LA .
by ken on Dec 3, 2008 4:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
oooh! Who here remembers Julio Zuleta
A 6’5 dude from Noriega’s hood with cornrows(!!) He was my favorite player of the Sosa years in Chicago…I’m convinced that he could’ve played well if Mark Grace wasn’t blocking him.
And also, the 2000 cubs team may have my favorite collection of mediocre outfielders: Glenallen Hill, Damon Buford, Dave Martinez, (Oh!) Henry Rodriguez, Gary Matthews…and a 20-year-old CPatt
...because there's already someone posing as Jacob Brumfield
by Cy Schourek on Dec 3, 2008 10:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Carlos Pena
The Yanks released him in favor of Andy Phillips.
And speaking of former Yankees…how about Craig Wilson? Yeah, I know, they signed him last year and he didn’t pass his physical. But it had been only eight months since his shoulder surgery then, and often takes longer than that to fully recover. He was signed by the Pirates later in the season, and then traded to Seattle. His power seemed to return as the season went on. He OPS’d .954 with the Tacoma Rainers.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on Dec 3, 2008 4:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
When he got to play, that is
They wouldn’t let poor Wilson join in many Ranier games.
by Brendanukkah on Dec 3, 2008 4:43 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Not since Pete, anyway
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
Sir Winston Churchill
by Madville on Dec 3, 2008 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
When it comes to player utilization, that is:
The Reds just never seem to be creative when it comes to finding ways for their best players to play.
Not since Pete, anyway 
Too bad Sparky’s senile…
DSCN2976 by mthickey01.
Third Baseman/Outfielder Pete Rose
All-time hits leader in Major League Baseball.
All-Star (18): 1965, 1967-1971, 1973-1982, 1985
National League Most Valuable Player 1973; Rookie of the Year 1963
Rose played at least 600 games at four different positions. He played 1,327 games in the outfield (50% in left field, 45% in RF, and 5% in CF); 939 games at first, mostly in his later years; 634 at third base; and 628 at second base, where he started.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
Sir Winston Churchill
by Madville on Dec 3, 2008 4:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, Walt speaks!
And apparently he’s at least aware of the idea of moving EdE to left
"Yes, and it's so important in this sport that the athletes be able to train in the same location." -Cynthia Potter, NBC Synchronized Diving Analyst
by 3 Fast 3 Furious on Dec 3, 2008 4:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
"We haven't discussed it."
I really hope that’s code for “Sure we’ve discussed it. We’d be horribly remiss at our jobs if we didn’t at least consider the scenario. But we’re not out to publicly undermine Edwin, so there’s no way I’m telling you what we talk about behind closed doors.”
Ugh.
by Brendanukkah on Dec 3, 2008 4:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hmmm
I thought those comments were at least somewhat encouraging.
by DisplacedFan on Dec 3, 2008 5:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
from mlbtr
Crasnick talked to a couple of officials who suggested Dunn might have to settle in the three-year, $36MM range.
so how much money can RR gather up together?
by jacob brumfield on Dec 3, 2008 5:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I sent $5 to Who Dey Revolution
I can match that for this cause.
by Brendanukkah on Dec 3, 2008 5:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It also says
the Nationals may have to pay a premium to convince any prominent free agent to sign.
I wonder if that holds for the Reds as well…
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on Dec 3, 2008 5:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
When concerning the Nationals...
It was true of the Reds three years earlier.
by Brendanukkah on Dec 3, 2008 5:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So true
How many guys on their team last year were Reds three years pryor…..alot
by Dave from Louisville on Dec 16, 2008 10:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
smart comment by Walt
the Reds lineup looks 100% better if EE can stick at 3rd. I have to believe he envisions 2010 or 2011 Votto LF/Alfonso 1st base so LF is probably open for a max of 2 years.
Much better to make EE defense a high priority in the Spring and see if he can move forward to slightly negative/ neutral defense.
The number one priority should be signing Votto and Bruce to long term contracts. If EE can improve in the field he should be signed also otherwise he should be traded after this year.
by davidmac84 on Dec 3, 2008 9:20 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
However you can always use a good corner OF
Esp. one who can hit for power and not clog the bases.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
Sir Winston Churchill
by Madville on Dec 3, 2008 9:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I think I found one of those out on the lake today

This guy clog the bases? Common!
"My wife ain't never ran and got me no pheasant." - Fistbands
by BK on Dec 3, 2008 9:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If AD signs for 3/36
I’m gonna send a letter to Gary Matthews and Alfonso Soriano every day telling them off.
Its a very mature way to handle the situation.
...because there's already someone posing as Jacob Brumfield
by Cy Schourek on Dec 3, 2008 10:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hamilton and Volquez
Do it over and keep Hamilton or still send him to Texas?
by Big Pappa on Dec 7, 2008 1:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I still send him to Texas
Maybe if he was a righty who played a good CF. But I think the Reds need Volquez more than they need another lefty corner OFer type.
Not to mention the whole Johnny Narron thing.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
by BubbaFan on Dec 7, 2008 2:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd do it again
Sure I’d love to have the offense from Hamilton, but I think Volquez has the potential to be a solid #2 for a long time with an outside shot of being an ace if he can refine his control a bit. I like having pitching and trying to find hitters much more than the reverse.
Why have I been blogging for so long? It's certainly not because of the paycheck. Because I could be making a lot more money as a doctor or a professional athlete.
by Slyde on Dec 7, 2008 4:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is where we disagree
I really think EV has the makeup of an ace. I think he’ll make the jump to consistently dominant this year. Don’t ask me why, but I have a lot more confidence in him than I do in Cueto.
"Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est."
by jch24 on Dec 7, 2008 5:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is where we disagree
I think EV will continue to go downhill, and will not be a top of the line starter for the long run.
I’d still rather have Hamilton.
Think of me what you will...I gotta little space to fill
by chandrathan on Dec 7, 2008 6:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but you're retarded
"Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est."
by jch24 on Dec 7, 2008 6:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
your retarded
Think of me what you will...I gotta little space to fill
by chandrathan on Dec 7, 2008 7:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you two are both "special"
"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can’t think of at least two ways to spell any word."-Andy Jack
by justin007000 on Dec 7, 2008 7:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Macro this to your keyboard
You can use it every time somebody signs up to ask us this question.
by Red Menace on Dec 7, 2008 7:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i have a random question
lets say a talented young player decides to retire from baseball, before he has acquired enough service time to obtain free agency. A year later he decides to get back into baseball, would the team who he retired from still have the rights to retain him, since he did not play long enough to be automatically granted free agency, or would he hit the open market?
"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can’t think of at least two ways to spell any word."-Andy Jack
by justin007000 on Dec 7, 2008 6:40 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
yes
Why have I been blogging for so long? It's certainly not because of the paycheck. Because I could be making a lot more money as a doctor or a professional athlete.
by Slyde on Dec 7, 2008 9:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd for ambiguity
Or flag’d, I’m not sure.
"Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est."
by jch24 on Dec 7, 2008 9:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Given the market is in our favor and payroll flexability
For the sake of credibility Walt will definitely obtain a corner OF with at least 10 million in salary. But to your point, there are places where this team is seriously challenged.
I do not believe a team can be success with the compete absence of defence at 3B and SS that we observed in the past 3 years. Having EE at 3B wouldn’t be bad if we had 1995 Omar Vizguel at SS, but we have an inept cripple, another guy with a broken knee cap, and a kid with the bat of a A ball player. So year we have problems. Not mention the fact that we are all banking of the fact that Harang, Bruce, Cueto, Arroyo, and EE improve; and the Votto, Volquez, Cordero, and Phillips will not regress. Something tells me 1 or 2 of those 9 are not going to meet the community expectations next year.
Great post JJ, you should do a follow-up with on the “Demand side” listing available positions, and the teams financial options to fill that need. I bet Walt has already done this, that’s why he’s so confident.
by Dave from Louisville on Dec 16, 2008 11:13 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

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