Peer into the future: Edwin Encarnacion
by Slyde on Dec 17, 2008 10:32 AM EST
in Peer into the Future
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It seems like there are two trains of thought currently with Edwin Encarnacion. On the one side, you have people who see a player that is still young with much promise. These people tend to believe that EdE is due for a breakout season this year, potentially developing 30 HR power and driving in 100 runs. Some also believe that he will eventually become adequate defensively at 3B.
On the other side, you have people who are starting to grow tired of watching EdE and wating for him to break out. Typically, these people don't see EdE as part of the future and wouldn't mind all that much if he were dealt either for an upgrade at 3B or a bigger bat for the outfield. Their common argument is that he's not a good enough 3B and he doesn't hit well enough to play at any of the easier defensive spots.
Personally, I'm split on this one. On the one had, I think EdE has the potential to be a solid, Tony Perez like bat for the next decade. On the other, I think it's time for him to be moved off of 3B, which may actually mean that it's time to trade him. I really don't have a solid answer on this one. The only thing I feel strongly about is that leaving him at 3B this season is a waste of time. I'd rather see if he can handle LF and then decide from there.
As for his projection, well I was surprised that it didn't turn out as optmistic as I thought it would. I based it off of a set of players who had a similar start to their careers, which included a couple of MVPs and a Hall of Famer. But, I'm not scientist and I'm sure I've got major flaws in my methodology, which is very subjective by the way.
I don't see EdE having a long career - though playing until age 36 is nothing to be ashamed of. I think he'll have a couple of good seasons in there, but overall I don't think he'll be much better than what we're seeing today. And apparently I think he'll have some sort of injury at age 32 which will more or less derail his career.
What do you think? How big of a fool am I on this one?
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why did Perez get better errr continue average/above if not almost good stats trough age 39?
he was a 3b/1b sometime outfielder?
can you try that question again?
I really don’t understand what you are asking.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
I think he can be like Perez too
and his career rates aren’t that far off of Perez in my projections. A little more health than I project for him and a slight uptick in quality and he could have a very similar career to Perez.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
I speak jive.
I can translate…
Hey Dusty...Are you sure you're OK? You might need an MRI.
by Paul Householder on Dec 17, 2008 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
Moving EE is a good thing i agree but 1st is blocked and left is open. Is his game perez like enough to do that?
Keep or top trade chip along with homer
one disagreement
“The only thing I feel strongly about is that leaving him at 3B this season is a waste of time.”
i think we have every reason to see if he can stick at 3B. i agree that i dont think his bat is going to get substantially better, so moving to LF or 1B is going to make him less valuable. if Frazier and Alonso are ready to start next year, then EdE will have to traded anyway. so why not try to keep him at the more valuable position? it seems his problems at 3B are correctable, so why not see if he can correct them? then next offseason we can market him as a 3B/1B/LF option rather than just a LF/1B option.
we probably arent playing for the gold this year, so why not take the risk? if he cant get better we can always move him later. i’d rather give him one last shot, even if it is a long one.
jingle bells Batman smells
Robin laid an egg
the Batmobile lost its wheel
and the Joker got away
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 17, 2008 10:58 AM EST reply actions
According to UZR
most of his defensive problems are with his range, not his errors. I no longer believe that he’ll be good defensively if he just cleans up his throws. He doesn’t get to enough balls at 3B. And it seems like every off-season we talk about how he might get better, but he really hasn’t. I’m no longer convinced that he might get better.
I understand the rest of your point though. Let me rework some of my statement and say that I think the smart move is to move him to LF and let him focus solely on developing his offense. I think he has a better chance of improving that than his defense.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
if we move him to LF
its not like he can just forget about defense and focus solely on hitting. he would have to learn an entirely new position. its an easier position, but a new one nonetheless. leafing back through his minor league stats, it doesnt seem like he’s ever played a single inning in the outfield (though he did play 17!! games at SS for Dayton). if he has ever played in the outfield, he was probably in little league last time he did. so either way, he would have to really focus and work on his defense. i think if he is going to do that, it might as well be at the more valuable position.
does the idea of moving EdE to 1B and Votto to LF have any traction? EdE’s range problem would be more than compensated for by BP, and it seems Votto’s destiny is in the OF anyway. EdE has played a bit of 1B and i would think moving across the infield would be an easier transition for him than a move to the OF. and i would think that Votto and his superior athleticism and speed would be better in LF than EdE would. on the other hand, its no slam-dunk that Yonder will develop quick enough to push Votto (and EdE), and Votto is an all-out stud at 1B defensively. it certainly is an interesting problem, and it doesnt seem like there is any clear-cut solution.
jingle bells Batman smells
Robin laid an egg
the Batmobile lost its wheel
and the Joker got away
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 17, 2008 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
I guess I just believe that sucking at defense in LF is less damaging than at 3B
that may not be true, but I stand by my non-scientific assertion!
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
youre probably right
but a guy who can hit like Adam Dunn can get by with sucking at defense in LF. a guy who hits like EdE, even if he improves some, doesnt have as much wiggle room.
jingle bells Batman smells
Robin laid an egg
the Batmobile lost its wheel
and the Joker got away
by Charlie Scrabbles on Dec 17, 2008 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
I agree with you, Slyde.
He really could be a very good offensive player. Let’s put him in left this year and see what happens. If he’s a mess defensively, perhaps we can ship him to an AL club looking for a bat. He is still a young dude.
by Joe Nolan's Glasses on Dec 17, 2008 10:58 AM EST reply actions
EdE is not DH material
his OPS+ at 3B is right around 100. So he is a solid hitter, but he doesn’t have a bat that warrants being a DH. Plus he has great range and a plus arm, he gets to a lot of balls.
"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can’t think of at least two ways to spell any word."-Andy Jack
by justin007000 on Dec 17, 2008 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
except that he doesn't
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
i thought that we decided that Edwin has plus range and a good arm?
"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can’t think of at least two ways to spell any word."-Andy Jack
by justin007000 on Dec 17, 2008 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
Even if we did
UZR doesn’t. Look what Slyde wrote earlier in this thread at 11:03.
by Brendanukkah on Dec 17, 2008 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
His arm may be good
but even if he didn’t make any throwing errors, his RZR would still be 16th in baseball for 3B last year and in 2007 (for qualified fielders). I don’t think that is a lot of range..
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
I forgot to add
that his OOZ (out of zone plays) in both years was decent, but again, not indicative of plus range.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
The PMR chart on EdE is interesting
It looks like EdE does okay on the “out of zone” plays but has the hardest time at balls hit right at him. He does have a problem with the slow rollers, which could be part of it. Under PMR he’s in the third quartile – not horrible and maybe salvageable. I agree with Charlie and think we should give him one more year at 3B, especially considering it’s a rebuilding year.
I wonder if he's out of position a lot?
Maybe he plays too deep? So, he can get to balls from side to side, but when he has to charge he has problems? I wonder if Pinto would give us his top and bottom plays. I know he was doing that earlier for some other players. I’ll email him, and then I’ll be hunting for someone with MLB.TV access to check out the tapes for us.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
It will be awesome when fielding metrics account for position
As for the slow rollers, I remember Welsh critizing EdE (rightly so) for not barehanding one early last year. EdE seemed to get better at that as the year went on, though that could be my mind playing tricks on me.
well, he looks pretty good on bunt grounders
small sample alert!
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
FWIW
Pizza Cutter just named the Edwin the worst arm at 3B for 2008. I imagine that is more because of erratic throws than arm strength. I think EdE has a strong arm, though maybe not a superior arm.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
Dunn also had the worst outfield arm
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
In other news
I think we’ve found that RH, power hitting LF we’ve been looking for:
Most Powerful: Ryan Ludwick
(best power score, min 100 PA)
Runners-up: Albert Pujols, Chris Dickerson, Nelson Cruz, Milton Bradley
"My wife ain't never ran and got me no pheasant." - Fistbands
where is that from?
"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can’t think of at least two ways to spell any word."-Andy Jack
by justin007000 on Dec 17, 2008 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
The link from the comment I replied to
"My wife ain't never ran and got me no pheasant." - Fistbands
Hmm
I’d be interested to see this guys data…
Cody Ross’s name pops up again. He’d be interesting depending on how cheap he was. I wish we knew Franklin Gutierrez was available so we could at least kick the tires. I wonder if the Mariners have given up on Wladimir Balentien now that they have Franklin. I wouldn’t mind giving him a shot if it was pretty cheap.
by BigRedMechanic on Dec 17, 2008 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
He says in the post that he'll post the data this week sometime
His defensive system (OPA!) is based off of Retrosheet data, so it may not be as precise as some of the other play-by-play systems, but it allows for historical consistency. Also, he does a better job of breaking out performance by skill (at least he attempts to do such), so that is how he can break down the players differently. I’d link you to some of his earlier work on the subject, but MVN plain sucks when it comes to search and I don’t feel like digging through his archives.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
EE
He makes some great stops at third but that arm to first is too erratic. We need to keep his right handed bat, so put him in left and sign Wiggington for a couple years until our young thirdbasemen are ready.
This was in another thread
but Wigginton is apparently looking for a better deal than Casey Blake’s 3yr/$17.5M deal. I don’t think he’ll get it from the Reds.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
I don't see the Reds paying Wigginton nearly $6M over three years.
I’ll be tickled and surprised if EdE turns out as good as did Tony Perez. EdE leaves me double-minded more than any player in a long time. I just don’t know what to make of him.
The options on EdE appear to be:
1) Leave him at 3B and hope he improves. I’m not as optimistic as I once was. Also, Todd Frazier (possibly ready by 2010), Juan Francisco (possibly ready by 2010), and Neftali Soto (possibly ready by 2011) are on the horizon. Somebody is going to be part of a trade at some point.
2) Move him to 1B. In that case, Votto needed to play LF in winter ball this year. And, Alonso looms, possibly by 2010.
3) Move him to LF. In that case, EdE needed to play LF in winter ball this year.
4) Trade EdE. I’m increasingly leaning toward this, preferably as part of a deal for Adrian Beltre, who likely will produce big in his walk year. No, I don’t know that Seattle is looking to move Beltre. If Beltre leaves after the season, the Reds stand to get two draft picks per his probable Type-A status. If the season is lost by the trade deadline, Beltre would bring fine prospects or players in return. Would those players/prospects be as good as EdE? That’s part of the risk.
Thanks to Slyde, I can debate with myself and argue with my own post all afternoon.
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Dec 17, 2008 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
I think EdE may improve offensively
He’s still young.
But I don’t think he will improve defensively. I say give him a shot in the outfield.
All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?
I wish EdE played better D
he’s not a good enough 3B and he doesn’t hit well enough to play at any of the easier defensive spots.
EdE is a commodity that doesn’t fit our needs terribly well: an offensively average starting 3B who has shown defensive inadequacy without offsetting progression that would improve his overall value.
If we keep him at 3B, and he doesn’t dramaticly improve defensively, we’ve given away a ton of hits/runs. If we keep him at 3B and he doesn’t improve offensively, we’re stuck with a player with limited upside with 3-4 years of stagnant improvement, and the “bloom will be off the rose” – no one else will see him as a prospect with offensive growth potential, leaving the franchise with less value than we have today.
If we move him to LF and he doesn’t improve offensively, no one else will see him as a prospect with offensive growth potential, leaving the franchise with less value than we have today. If he can’t handle catching balls in LF, this would be a catastrophe.
If we move him to 1B, and he doesn’t improve offensively, no one else will see him as a prospect with offensive growth potential, leaving the franchise with less value than we have today. If he can’t handle catching ball at 1B, this would be a catastrophe, especially since we would have moved Joey Votto to LF to make room for EdE. If Votto can’t catch balls in LF, and EdE can’t dig 1-hop throws out of the dirt at 1B, welcome to hell.
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
His full name is Edwin Elpidio Encarnacion
If we move him to 1B, his name and position will both be E3.
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2008 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
it feels like we have this same conversation every year
we always want to know if the upcoming season is going to be his breakout year.
i’m of the belief that that breakout year is never going to come
Think of me what you will...I gotta little space to fill
by chandrathan on Dec 17, 2008 1:46 PM EST reply actions
But didn't you know?
He’ll be only 26 years old in 2009…his breakout year will mystically occur in his 27th year of life, as is written by the Sabermetric Gods who control this sort of thing.
1000111
1001111
1000100
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2008 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
Either EdE doesn't have the talent or the drive cause he ain't really getting good enough fast enough.
I see no breakout year in my crystal ball for Edwin.
As far as comparing him to Ton;y (Hall of Fame) Perez – puuhleeze!!!!!!
Perez was a mediocre 3B.
Edwin is as mediocre if not worse. That is where the comparison ends, for me anyway,
Tony’s breakout year was 1967 at age 25. The year he played 139 games at 3B, 18 at 1st base and 1B at 2B . No matter where he was playing Tony went on to have 13 straight years with 90 or more RBIs – 13 years with an +OPS of 118 or higher.1972 he was switched to 1B because Howsam traded Lee May.
Perez’s focus and intensity was legendary.
Edwin doesn’t match up remotely well enough (using Slyde’s projections) At a glance EdE won’t match up well with Ken Griifey Sr. If his development continues on course Edwin appears to be on target to be a slightly less productive Paul O’Neil With maybe a touch more HR power.
O’Neil, Grif Sr. and Perez were so intense…maybe Edwin is too and its just not visible
He would have to spends a great deal of time and energy working on his all around game to approach the level of Grif Sr. or O’Neil (both of whom were strong journeymen players. ) I cannot see him as the big RH bopper I think the Reds need. I also hope that I’m wrong. Maybe Slyde can prove me wrong!!!
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
Sir Winston Churchill
I know it's sacrilege to pretend that Perez wasn't really a Hall of Famer
but until this last season, there was very little in their histories that differentiated Perez from EdE at the same age – in fact, it’s easily argued that EdE was the better player up until age 25. Legendary focus notwithstanding.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
Perez was not a full time player until the age of 25 so that's true Slyde
I used your projections for EdE and then looked at Perez’s actual stats, and Grif Sr.‘s and O’Neil’s. If your projections are close then, obviously EdE ain’t gonna be even close to Tony. Maybe this will be the break out year that Edwin needs, I sure hope so, but I’m not holding my breath either.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
Sir Winston Churchill
my projections are crap
there is very little science behind my projections, and what is there is very likely improperly used.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
Then why are you asking us to peer into the future by revealing your 'projections'? Slyde.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
Sir Winston Churchill
My projections are a jumping off point
but to assume that EdE can’t be Tony Perez because I put some projections up there that oppose that idea is silly. I would agree that if EdE follows the career path that I posted above, then no way is he Tony Perez. But that doesn’t mean he can’t be as good as Tony Perez.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
At age 25, Doggie was much better defensively at 3B than Encarnacion,
made the all-star team and finished eighth in the MVP voting. Doggie was more versatile, or at least his manager trusted him to move around more than EdE’s does/did. EdE was much more likely to take a walk, but was a bit more K prone, as well.
In the next 10 years, will EdE hit 20-plus HR at least nine times, topping 36 twice? Will he post a batting average no worse than .265 in any single season and top .313 twice? Will he slug no worse than .430 and top .526 three times?
Will EdE post 25-105-.275 .320 .467 when he’s 38 years old?
Surround EdE with the Big Red Machine and, sure, his numbers improve. I was mildly surprised that EdE’s stats were on par with Doggie’s up to age 25. What happens going forward will be much more telling.
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Dec 17, 2008 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
To be honest
all-star teams and MVP voting aren’t helpful in these discussions because, as we’ve seen time and time again in recent years, they are largely a function of team success/visibility and hype.
A manager’s trust of Perez to move around the field says as much about the flexible thinking of the manager as it does about Perez’s defense. They wanted his bat in the lineup and were willing to get creative with his positioning to make that happen.
All Mickey Mouse films are founded on the motif of leaving home in order to learn what fear is.
by Man Mountain on Dec 17, 2008 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
IF EdE is so intense
you’d think he would hustle. He doesn’t hustle, instead lumbering out of the box once he has admirably witnessed the flight and trajectory of the ball.
Hustling doesn’t cost a damn thing, and improves your game. Doggie knew it, and hustled all the time. O’Neill knew it, and hustled all the time, usually involving an exclamatory expletive and a collision between his hurled helmet and the ground in which the ground seldom won. Griffey, Sr. knows all about hustle, he just never taught it to his egocentric, lazy punk of a son.
If EdE doesn’t know hustle now, he never will. One more reason to trade him and his mopey, hole-ridden glove before everyone else catches on that he has no passion for the game, nor the professionalism to overcome this handicap.
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2008 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
mmm...prosaic, reactionary horseshit
All Mickey Mouse films are founded on the motif of leaving home in order to learn what fear is.
by Man Mountain on Dec 17, 2008 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
It ain't reactionary
It’s my long-felt opinion. You may not share the opinion, but I don’t call your opinions horseshit.
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2008 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
Feel free to call my opinions horseshit
Sometimes they are and I don’t mind being called on it. But here are two more considered reactions to your post:
1. The examples you provided lead me to believe that you’ve confused histrionics for hustle.
2. It’s possible that EdE doesn’t hustle. But I’m not convinced that “hustle,” as its popularly recognized and hailed, matters all that much in baseball played at this level. It has an ethical dimension that makes fans feel good, but I’m not sure how much it translates to success on the field. I’m not against it, by any means, but the negative effects of “hustle” (i.e. injury, caught stealings) rarely show up in these conversations.
All Mickey Mouse films are founded on the motif of leaving home in order to learn what fear is.
by Man Mountain on Dec 17, 2008 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
It's true
The quantifiable effects of hustle are rarely brought into this discussion. Excellent point.
But we all saw doubles stretched into singles multiple times by Griff and EdE in recent years. It does not dramatically affect the final stats, but I truly believe that the fish rots from the head. Griff didn’t hustle, he was the posterboy, and the example he set sucked – and was not questioned by Dusty. If Dusty had pulled Griff after another non-hustling event, that would have set the tone/example for our prospects to follow. It’s subjective what effect that has over time, and impossible to quantify. EdE loafed before and after seeing Jr. get away with it.
Those few singles that should have been doubles DO cost us real runs. Not much, but these are 100% preventable losses. Besides, just because something doesn’t fit into a spreadsheet (i.e. confidence, relaxation, emotional control) doesn’t mean that it’s not real, it doesn’t mean that it’s not important, and it doesn’t mean that it should be discounted out of hand.
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2008 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
Couple things
But we all saw doubles stretched into singles multiple times by Griff and EdE in recent years.
Have we? I’m certain we have, but how many? Does it happen more often with Reds players than with other teams? With winning teams? Quantifying it doesn’t tell us whether it’s a bad thing or not — it is — but it would let us know whether a given player or a team in general does that sort of thing to a degree greater than others.
Griff didn’t hustle, he was the posterboy, and the example he set sucked
In my opinion, Griffey was a sulk, but, more importantly he had a lot of leg injuries. Two of which occurred while he was hustling to take an extra base. In his last two seasons, I didn’t begrudge him “stretching a double into a single.” At least he wasn’t getting his ass thrown out or injurying himself.
Those few singles that should have been doubles DO cost us real runs. Not much, but these are 100% preventable losses. Besides, just because something doesn’t fit into a spreadsheet (i.e. confidence, relaxation, emotional control) doesn’t mean that it’s not real, it doesn’t mean that it’s not important, and it doesn’t mean that it should be discounted out of hand.
Of course the intangible facets of the game are important and real. The problem is that we, as fans removed from the game, are in a worse position to judge those kind of things than are the coaches and other players. I didn’t discount them “out of hand” — that’s hyperbole on your part — what I said was that I doubt that “hustle” or “intensity” (which apparently is registered by the sincerity of one’s helmet throwing) is as important to success in MLB as other facets, such as, say, patience. Certainly, I do believe that hustle is accorded a place over and above its actual importance.
Your knock against EdE is that he doesn’t have the drive to be a great player. I can’t quantify “drive.” Agreed. But just because I can’t quantify it well by means of solid data, doesn’t mean that you can qualify it well by means of observation.
All Mickey Mouse films are founded on the motif of leaving home in order to learn what fear is.
by Man Mountain on Dec 17, 2008 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
Doubles
Agree with everything said here and would add that 29 doubles in 146 games sounds about right for a hitter like Edwin. It sounds even better when you consider that (1) he plays in a park that depresses doubles and (2) he tried putting the ball in the air much more last year to boost his HRs. His LD% went down (again) to 15.9, and his FB increased. I don’t see any indication that Encarnacion should’ve had more doubles.
Actually that's Madville's argument:
Either EdE doesn’t have the talent or the drive cause he ain’t really getting good enough fast enough.
My comment is that I am unconvinced of his drive (subjective, based mostly on instances of lack of in-game hustle), and see this as symptomatic of something which might be contributing to his lack of improvement. Three stagnant years of non-development corroborate that there is SOME problem here, even if that “problem” is that EdE has maxed out his skill set. Only god and maybe Ted Williams’ frozen head know EdE’s achievable upside.
No one’s response thus far has proven otherwise convincing to me, beyond reminding me that the beat writers have reported that he takes some extra fielding practice. And only 2 of those 3 beat writers can give an eyewitness account.
And I didn’t comment that you had discounted intangibles "out of hand", but rather that it would be folly to do so – a point on which we agree.
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2008 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
I don't see how anything we might say would convince you.
You seem to have come to your own conclusion, and I can’t imagine what would sway you.
Your argument is entirely predicated on your own observations of Edwin’s in-game lack of hustle. So there are only two real ways that we can counterargue – by saying that your evidence is false – which since it’s your own perception, no one could. Or by trying to establish that such instances do not correlate with a lack of drive. Which you also don’t seem to want to consider.
No one’s even arguing that Edwin DOESN’T lack drive, just expressing profound disbelief that any fan could know that. You’ve taken 1 + x = y and determined that y equals 10. It’s just not a reasonable inference.
Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.
Damn girls kick ass
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
Sir Winston Churchill
intangibles
Besides, just because something doesn’t fit into a spreadsheet (i.e. confidence, relaxation, emotional control) doesn’t mean that it’s not real, it doesn’t mean that it’s not important, and it doesn’t mean that it should be discounted out of hand.
This comes up time and again. I really wanted to talk about it after Madville’s energy post the other day. Again and again I have to say that I don’t think players are robots. Of course they have intangible qualities. But I think it’s the great fallacy of fandom that we think we know them. I’m an agnostic on the issue.
If a player’s grit and hustle allow him to take an extra base, or beat out a grounder these have tangible effects on the game that we can measure. They show up in the player’s stats. If the results of the player’s heart don’t effect the statline (which on the offensive side encompasses pretty much everything), then how much do they matter?
We saber types choose to ignore these factors in favor of the great sum of information that we do have. We do this because we admit our total lack of knowledge on the intangible front. Those who extol the intangibles are always so sure, so certain, that what’s lost between the spreadsheet’s lines buttresses their argument.
I watch a lot of baseball, but I can’t watch all my team’s 1400+ innings. Even if I could I couldn’t process all my perceptions of even a single season. This is the sport where two extra infield dribblers a month is the difference between riding the bus and starring in the show. On top of that I know my perceptions are colored by any number of factors—I remember the dramatic, hold on to what affirms my beliefs, dismiss that which doesn’t. Maybe my prejudices color my perceptions of players (I’m not accusing anyone here of this, but there’s a long history of players who look a certain way coming out on the positive side of the intangibles ledger and players who look another way coming out on the negative).
I absolutely knew this argument was going to be broached regarding Edwin. I’m satisfied with saying he has been disappointing in many ways thus far as evidenced by the statistical record. I’m not comfortable with saying that his failures are due to faults in his character or disposition. That seems to be the gulf between us.
by Red Menace on Dec 17, 2008 3:48 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
The only argument I would have here
Is that your Average Joe Reds Fan (AJRF* patent pending) hated Adam Dunn for not possessing these intangibles and love Norris Hopper for his buntitude and hustle.
"Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est."
Well I've never looked at hustle/intensity/focus etc. as an element of character .
I do extol the intangibles at times, for sure…but I am not dead certain of anything re. said intangibles. I can’t be…an intangible can be as abstruse as a ball hitting a small stone in the infield causing a misplay or player who’s not feeling well making a mental mistake…However your post gets to the heart of the matter and is beautifully non combative.Thanks
I believe that only the manager (unless he’s Dusty!) and the other guys in the dugout, who live with each other daily can really know what’s going on with a given player on a given day…even that’s so subjective…but again arguing over this stuff part of the fun of fandom.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
Sir Winston Churchill
O'Neill was a bitch
and I have no idea how you’re able to come to those conclusions about EdE. Passion and intensity are two different things. Some people just aren’t intense people. That doesn’t mean they lack effort.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
What passion for the game has EdE shown?
If not physically expressive, is it the extensive time he spends doing extra fielding work?
I can’t think of any baseball player whom I would describe as having a passion for the game who didn’t hustle out of the box…can you?
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2008 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
that's because you associate passion with visible intensity
I have heard numerous accounts that EdE spends extensive amount of time working on his defense. Just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
Visible intensity does not equal success
it is instead symptomatic of a lack of drive and/or passion for a subject, while it could also be a benign personality trait.
Symptoms do not equal disease, but a lack of improvement over time combined with SYMPTOMS of lack of drive and/or passion for a subject makes me suspicious of future improvement.
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2008 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
how do you know he lacks the drive and/or passion?
maybe his lack of improvement is that he doesn’t have the requisite skill to improve defensively?
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
Isn't the whole deal with Edwin that he's quiet and withdrawn?
And he needs perhaps a bit of coddling or a manager to be on his side to really get the most out of his abilities? I seem to remember people (teammates, journalists, Dusty) saying this sort of thing.
Then again, he also ripped shit up at the plate after his demotion to AAA, so maybe he does respond well to tough love. He’s an odd bird. I’m really starting to think that trading him might be the best idea.
by Brendanukkah on Dec 17, 2008 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know that he lacks the drive and/or passion
but I suspect it due to several examples of lack of hustle between the lines, and have asked for others’ opinions/feedback. I’m still waiting to be persuaded.
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2008 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
I hate this argument...
it pops up from time to time. While I tend to agree with Slyde on the issue, I really dislike his “how do you know” defense. Slyde, how do you know that Petey isn’t right?
Please don’t let this one get blown up like they have in the past
Think of me what you will...I gotta little space to fill
by chandrathan on Dec 17, 2008 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
and how would one make such a case
without first hand reports or extensive video evidence?
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
Let's stay on point
If EdE’s passionate about improving his game, I remain unconvinced by his occasional in-game lack of hustle combined with his lack of improvement defensively and offensively over a reasonably large sample. It could be his lack of a more advanced skill set is preventing this transformation, rather than an enthused obsession with making himself the best baseball player he can be.
But if a player is inadequate for a team’s needs, doesn’t improve over time, and shows moments of what I would describe as being symptoms of lack of passion for the game (highly subjective), it makes me want him traded as a commodity before he further cements other teams’ assessments of his trade worth.
It could be that EdE peaked 2 years ago, and this is as far as his skill set will take him, passionate or not. But I don’t buy into this equation:
BAD, UN-IMPROVING GLOVE + OCCASIONAL LACK OF HUSTLE + AVERAGE, UN-IMPROVING OFFENSE (FOR STARTING 3BMEN)
OVER SEVERAL YEARS + IMPROVEMENT OF X = REDS SUCCESS AT 3B
I don’t know the value of X, but right now I am willing to sell it at market value to get expendable pieces we can use as currency to get what will improve the team for ’09 and beyond.
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2008 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
Your formula kind of proves one of MM's points
If you take OCCASIONAL LACK OF HUSTLE out of your equation, you get:
BAD, UN-IMPROVING GLOVE + AVERAGE, UN-IMPROVING OFFENSE (FOR STARTING 3BMEN)
OVER SEVERAL YEARS + IMPROVEMENT OF X = REDS SUCCESS AT 3B
It’s basically the same equation. The lack of hustle really doesn’t bring anything to the argument. It may make a slight difference, or it may not, but hustling/lack of hustling does not make a baseball player. It might be the difference between a good player and a great player, or a shitty player and a kind-of-less-shitty player (Freel, Eckstein), but it’s not the difference between a good player and a bad player, which is what we’re trying to figure out with Edwin.
"My wife ain't never ran and got me no pheasant." - Fistbands
by BK on Dec 17, 2008 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
EdE isn't a bad player
lack of hustle…it’s not the difference between a good player and a bad player, which is what we’re trying to figure out with Edwin.
I think the focus here is NOT that EdE’s perceived lack of hustle takes him from being a good player to a bad player. I don’t believe that to be true. You could make a case that EdE is already a “good” player. I am arguing that this perceived lack of hustle is ONE warning sign against future development from an already stagnant source, and that when I combine this factor with other factors, I feel EdE does not seem to be our solution at 3B.
Would EdE be a better player if he had more of that fire and obsessive tenacity? Have others with more fire but a lesser skill set achieved more than EdE? You might argue that despite appearances, the perceived lack of hustle belies his inner passion, but I am unconvinced. Would anyone argue that if he had less passion and hustled less that he’d be BETTER, statistically or otherwise?
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2008 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not saying he's a bad player
What I’m saying is that there’s a difference between a player with the talent to be a solid everyday contributor to a major league baseball team, and one that doesn’t fit that bill. EdE is a classic example of a player that’s on the fence there. Offensively, I think he’s proven himself, but defensively, he has not, so I don’t think you can quite lump him into the first group just yet. It all goes back to whether or not he’s capable of improvement, and I’m not so sure we disagree with each other too much on that topic. What I’m saying is that in the grand scheme of things, “hustling” doesn’t make you a better baseball player. You may be percieved to be a better player, but your value is as good as your contribution on the field. The body language a player uses, negatively or positively, affects how the player is percieved, and here in Cincinnati, nobody is influenced by that more than our local media (Marty, Brantley, Thom, McAlister, Tracy, Doc, all the way down the line). The fans here are also conditioned to take what Marty Brennaman says as gospel, even when the product on the field doesn’t match up with Marty’s assessment. EdE is by no means a superstar player, but he isn’t as bad as Marty and the others make him out to be. Their negative perception clouds their judgment.
Maybe this is turning into a long-winded advertisement for sabrmetrics, but all in all, I’m saying that how a player looks on TV (their perceived level of hustle and body language) doesn’t reflect their value as a baseball player.
"My wife ain't never ran and got me no pheasant." - Fistbands
by BK on Dec 17, 2008 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
I don't fault EdE for body language
I think that would be horseshit.
I’m strictly a Joe Madden-esque “You didn’t hustle out of the box? Your ass is on the pine,” type of fellow. Does everyone here think that when the AL Manager of the Year benches a player for lack of hustle, is that merely a pointless exercise by the old guard, or is he making that player and the team better?
The fans here are also conditioned to take what Marty Brennaman says as gospel, even when the product on the field doesn’t match up with Marty’s assessment. EdE is by no means a superstar player, but he isn’t as bad as Marty and the others make him out to be. Their negative perception clouds their judgment.
I agree with that. One of the perks of living outside of Porkopolis is that I don’t hear much of sMarty. What he knows rattles around noisily in a mostly-empty giant roach motel of a mind that has vacancy, but won’t let anything new customers in.
I know I’m going out on a limb here, but I was actually impressed with Chris Welsh’s performance this year. He was much less of a homer than in seasons past, shared technical insight in a modest way, and called out the non-performers, including Dusty, in a non-insulting way.
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2008 5:29 PM EST up reply actions
You're preaching to the choir there, dude.
Chris Welsh is awesome.
"My wife ain't never ran and got me no pheasant." - Fistbands
by BK on Dec 17, 2008 6:20 PM EST up reply actions
I don't have a problem with benching a slacker,
just do it for everyone unless there’s a special case. When EdE was benched in ‘07 it raised some eyebrows because there were plenty of others who’d done the same with more frequency.
by ken on Dec 18, 2008 6:27 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
this post should be rec'd, and thanks to me it is
take that dusty and your fear of the grif
Think of me what you will...I gotta little space to fill
by chandrathan on Dec 18, 2008 8:47 AM EST up reply actions
actually it was Narron who f'd up in 2007
he benched EdE, but then a month later failed to bench both Griffey and Phillips for the same offense.
And now EdE has a reputation of a slacker and a moper, while all the world adores BP.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
oh yeah?
well he gets the other one all riled up!
Think of me what you will...I gotta little space to fill
by chandrathan on Dec 18, 2008 8:59 AM EST up reply actions
And I think we've all just shown more passion for EdE
than he has shown us.
But I genuinely hope he wins the MVP for the Reds.
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2008 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
Well Petey - As far as husting out of the box goes,,,yeah I can think of several passionate players who didn't/don't always hustle out of the box.
Paul O’Neil being one of them.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
Sir Winston Churchill
hustling out of the box
Every player I’ve watched a great deal of has at one time or another failed to hustle out of the box—Larkin, Jeter, O’Neil… I saw Pujols do it once last year. Players have 600+ plate appearances a year and they all come up a little short on rare occasions..
Maybe you mean consistently failing to hustle out of the box, but I don’t think Encarnacion is guilty of that. I think this is an example of confirmation bias. When Manny Ramirez loafs we log it in our memory. When David Eckstein does it we don’t notice.
I’m frustrated by Edwin too. We’ve been waiting a long time for his breakout and it hasn’t happened yet (it may never). But I’m really hesitant to attribute this to a fundamental failure of his character.
"is it the extensive time he spends doing extra fielding work?"
I can’t tell if you’re being saracastic, but according to several accounts EdE does put in extra fielding work. It just hasn’t paid off – yet.
Does anyone think that EdE will improve defensively enough at 3B
to be an average defender at that position, even with lots more work?
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2008 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
I don't
and have stated such. But that’s not what you are arguing. You are arguing that it is because of his lack of effort, which I do not believe is the case.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
I think my argument is instead
that improvement eludes him because he either doesn’t have the skill set OR he lacks the drive to take his limited skill set to the next level. It’s impossible for me to know which is the case, or if it has to be one of those two specific scenarios. I remain open to convincing…yet have read little to convince me.
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2008 3:32 PM EST up reply actions
This is the only kind of hustler that matters
I heart Man Mounting.
by Gay Jesus on Dec 17, 2008 3:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Umm Slyde you're getting into a non quantifiable area.
“Some people just aren’t intense people. That doesn’t mean they lack effort”.
What’s your definition of ‘intense/passionate…or effort’ ?
I’ve never know a person who shows consistent effort and interest who is not intense.
MM will call this prosaic hosreshit and he’s right unless we specifically quantify our terms.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
Sir Winston Churchill
I don't know the players
how could I possibly guess who is passionate about anything and who is not?
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
That's absolutele.
Part of the fun of being a fan is railing and arguing about non-quantifiable shit like intensity and base clogging!!!! AND Managing etc.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
Sir Winston Churchill
Well Pete, I couldn't agree more. I don't see the kind of hustle and drive in EdE that separates the high achievers from the everyday players.
On the other hand its is pretty hard to define and quatify hustle, focus, intensity and drive. Some would say that Adam Dunn is not a hustle kind of player, yet I love the guy and he’s achieved a great deal over the past few years.
Passion players:
There’s passionate not so great ones
Freel’s a good example, Jerry Jr., Kepp – all seem pretty passionate and prone to hustle but……
Anyway I couldn’t agree more with you about the Doggie, Sr. and Paulie…those guys were really competitive in a visceral and visible way.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
Sir Winston Churchill
Rec'd
for mopey hole-ridden glove, great!!!
by Dave from Louisville on Dec 17, 2008 10:49 PM EST up reply actions
It ain't reactionary
It’s my long-felt opinion. You may not share the opinion, but I don’t call your opinions horseshit.
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
okay, no more horseshit talk
assholes
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
I'm just pleased
that I wasn’t part of this particular horseshit thread.
by Pops Daniels on Dec 17, 2008 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
Were too, reactionary asshole....hiding behind a cleric's skirts!
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
Sir Winston Churchill
One must have a reactionary asshole these days
if one is anywhere near a cleric’s skirts.
by Pops Daniels on Dec 17, 2008 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
You funny man POPS
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
Sir Winston Churchill
Did anyone see this article
regarding Rocco Baldelli? Maybe he could be our next LF if Edwin pisses his pants. I am confused by his new diagnosis, however. Does this mean he’s part quarter-horse?
by Joe Nolan's Glasses on Dec 17, 2008 3:32 PM EST reply actions
maybe he needs to be on the triple cocktail
The middle one is probably tobacco juice.
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2008 3:35 PM EST up reply actions
He's six and a quarter horse?
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
So does that make him
1/16 horse?
by Joe Nolan's Glasses on Dec 17, 2008 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
Or twice the defender Dunn was?
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2008 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
That
still would be printed on his birth certificate in many southern states. The law says that if his blood is even 1/16 horse, then he’s a horse.
by Pops Daniels on Dec 17, 2008 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
It used to mean he was heir to the throne of Russia
by Brendanukkah on Dec 17, 2008 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
bam!
All Mickey Mouse films are founded on the motif of leaving home in order to learn what fear is.
by Man Mountain on Dec 17, 2008 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
If he is part quarter-horse, then
he’ll undoubtedly leave a pile of … wait a minute, seems to be a theme developing around here.
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Dec 17, 2008 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
I hate to admit it
But I’m starting to be convinced that EdE is what we see, and won’t get any better. Yes, there should be some improvement at his age, and it just hasn’t happened.
That being said, Petey is way off base here. We have no idea how much or how hard a guy works to improve. None. And if I were a pro athlete, I’d be one of those loud-mouth assholes who found a mike to talk into every time some blowhard on the internet starting spouting off about my lack of “hustle” or “dedication” just because he didn’t think he saw any.
EdE, if he were to improve his defense, would see his salary increase 10-20X for each of the the next 10 years; otherwise, he’ll soon be out of the league. Why in the world wouldn’t he take every chance to improve? His agent, who gets a percentage, also knows this; why wouldn’t he make sure it happens? Dusty’s job depends on the players improving; why wouldn’t he make sure?
Players show up before any spectators do to work on fielding and hitting; in modern facilities, they can do alot of work away from the public eye; they’ll work out in the off-season like previous generations never even considered. However, when a player doesn’t progress the way one likes, all we hear is how “lazy” and “uncommitted” the player is and how guys “back in the day” worked 100X as hard. I’m sorry, but I’ll repeat the word used above: That’s a horseshit statement.
There’s a frequent contributor over at BBTF who for years has been talking about how fat, lazy, uncommitted, and underachieving Adam Dunn is. How does he know this? He has relatives in the Cinci area, and got to see Dunn play a few times a year. Of course, he never saw Dunn’s extra work, or the offseason he spent working out with Jr. When the Reds acquired Hatte, it was because they “gave up” on Dunn playing 1B, even though they signed Hatte 2 days after Spring Training started (if Krivsky made all of his decisions that quickly, no wonder the team’s a mess). It pissed me off to no end that this guy would constantly rag on players (and he was always given lots of rope because he was an old farmer; evidently that garnered him some special insight into pro athletes) with zero actual knowledge of the players.
I’m a very critical person; it allows me to try to tear people down so they’re no longer superior to me. But I will never ever question the hustle or dedication of an athlete because 99% of what he or she does is completely out of the public eye (unless it’s the Olympics and the athlete’s last name rhymes with “Welps”, then we’ll know every last minutae).
Often wrong, never uncertain.
question?
what good is all the “unseen” work if it doesn’t translate to the field?
Think of me what you will...I gotta little space to fill
by chandrathan on Dec 17, 2008 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
You completely missed the point
I could quit my job, hire Tom Emanski, and work 80 hours a week for a year on my defense and still field about 10% of the balls that a scrubini on a college team fields. It would not be for a lack of effort or hustle.
Often wrong, never uncertain.
yeah, but you'd kick ass in the AAU National Tournament
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
two years in a row
"My wife ain't never ran and got me no pheasant." - Fistbands
by BK on Dec 17, 2008 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
dude
That’s BACK-TO-BACK-TO-BACK championships. Get it right!
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
"This is the instructional video that gets results"
Like being able to throw a ball into a toppled over garbage can from CF?
"Yes, and it's so important in this sport that the athletes be able to train in the same location." -Cynthia Potter, NBC Synchronized Diving Analyst
by 3 Fast 3 Furious on Dec 18, 2008 9:12 AM EST up reply actions
that's not what i meant...
i meant if he puts in so much effort off the field…why does it appear to petey that he doesn’t display the same effort during games?
Think of me what you will...I gotta little space to fill
by chandrathan on Dec 17, 2008 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
Because he's tired from all the effort he puts in off the field
DUH.
"Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est."
Why does it appear to petey that EdE doesn’t display the same effort during games?
Because he doesn’t always hustle out of the box. That costs us probably less than 1 run per season, so some say that’s nothing to pay attention to. Some argue that it’s not indicative of drive or passion. Some argue that drive or passion doesn’t matter, or doesn’t matter enough to mention.
When a player doesn’t always hustle, it causes me respect his performance and work ethic less because these actions come across to me as a lack of focus, desire, OR training. When combined with lack of improvement, it makes me suspicious of his future. You are welcome to argue my logic. It also makes me want to trade him from my distant, mostly ignorant perch, because the cumulative affect of this is that I have lesser hopes for his future.
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2008 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
dude
i was kinda agreeing with you…
Think of me what you will...I gotta little space to fill
by chandrathan on Dec 17, 2008 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
HOW DO YOU KNOW
You keep going back to your non-hustle/non-intensity crap arguement. How can you tell, just by looking, that he isn’t trying?
Often wrong, never uncertain.
I never said that he wasn't trying
nor that I could definitively determine his exact level of intensity/drive. That’s the third time I’ve been misquoted – rudely – in this thread.
But I thank you for the lovely discourse.
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2008 5:34 PM EST up reply actions
Eh, don't sweat it
EdE is a RR favorite, people here are very protective of him.
I personally could take him or leave him, makes no difference. But I was never a big Sean Casey fan either and people seemed to love him.
As far as drive/intensity/hustle/scraptasticness goes – I think it matters, but not very much. Everyone in the majors is incredibly talented and most have an insane work ethic. Being intense on the field might illustrate a player being more “locked into the game”, but there are plenty of players who take the opposite approach with superstar results (Manny Ramirez for one).
My biggest complaint “intensity-wise” with the Reds the last few years is their shyness to nail a batter in the back when he deserves it.
"Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est."
Yet
You’re convinced he doesn’t hustle. Please explain the difference between “not hustling” and “not trying” or “not trying hard” (“exact level of intensity/drive”) so I don’t misquote you again.
Often wrong, never uncertain.
EdE doesn't always hustle out of the box.
Ergo, not always hustling. I’ve seen it multiple times, but he certainly doesn’t do so every game.
Apparently suggesting that this, in part, should make us favor his future prospects less, makes me foolish. I believe the opposite is the case.
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2008 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
Despite your protestations
You do seem convinced of of his “level of intensity/drive”:
My comment is that I am unconvinced of his drive (subjective, based mostly on instances of lack of in-game hustle)…
If EdE’s passionate about improving his game, I remain unconvinced by his occasional in-game lack of hustle…
Because he doesn’t always hustle out of the box…When a player doesn’t always hustle, it causes me respect his performance and work ethic less
Often wrong, never uncertain.
"Unconvinced" of something does not equal "convinced" of the opposite point
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 17, 2008 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
Harvey Wallbangers had a change of heart about Dunn this past year
Even mentioned him as a darkhorse MVP candidate before ’08, iirc.
and look how wrong he was
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
here's an interesting tie in to UK basketball about the same topic
from blog.kentuckysportsradio.com
I want to see a 500 word column from Billy Reed on how this comment from Gillispie shows that UK is disconnecting from its blue-collar fanbase that fantasizes that hard work and effort can make a difference in basketball.
Think of me what you will...I gotta little space to fill
by chandrathan on Dec 17, 2008 5:10 PM EST reply actions
this comment is horseshit
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
by Slyde on Dec 17, 2008 5:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd
And I didn’t know Pops was slumming around under the pseudonym of “kenny”.
"Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est."
Dude,
You know there is no way I’m hanging out on a UK site unless it’s under the pseudonym “Youcanallgetfuckedwithabigbluedick.”
by Pops Daniels on Dec 17, 2008 8:27 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
No offense 'than
you know you’re the exception, babe.
by Pops Daniels on Dec 17, 2008 8:28 PM EST up reply actions
you're like the Ike Turner of RR commenters
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
it's ok
he’s under a lot of stress
Think of me what you will...I gotta little space to fill
by chandrathan on Dec 17, 2008 9:17 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah
I only set down the pipe long enough to smack a bitch.
by Pops Daniels on Dec 18, 2008 9:36 AM EST up reply actions
UK sucks
And Billy Gillispie sucks at life.
by Dave from Louisville on Dec 17, 2008 10:57 PM EST up reply actions
and you should die
Think of me what you will...I gotta little space to fill
by chandrathan on Dec 18, 2008 8:47 AM EST up reply actions
Hey anyone want to talk about the effect of a good field manager VS a bad one?
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
Sir Winston Churchill
I'm kind of late here
But I’m in the “wait-and-see” camp. I don’t mind watching Edwin play next year, either in LF or at 3B, because we really have no other options. I guess Cherry could play third, but it’s not like we have a major league ready prospect at that position. Juan Francisco looked good, but he definitely isn’t ready yet. And there are no good free agents out there this offseason, so why not wait for that breakout year? If nothing else, Francisco or maybe Neftali Soto will be ready in 2010 if EdE underperforms this season.
Just my 2 cents…..oh, and this entire post is horseshit.
You guys (and gals) refer to "horseshit" as if it were a bad thing.
Mushrooms……..?
Reds fan for 40 years!
Holla
Slyde: "You're like the Ike Turner of RR commenters."
by Pops Daniels on Dec 18, 2008 9:44 AM EST up reply actions
Alot of you guys are missing the point big time
As a coach of a few different sports there is one rule a coach knows, but he never admits.
TALENT >>>>>>EFFORT
The greater the level of competition the more the laws of nature exist. That doesn’t mean talent always wins, but 90% of the time you bet on talent. You coach kids to seize the 10% moment that they take with them forever. Those kids that seize that moment and win when they should have lost grow up to be the best coaches hardest core fans.
But remember
TALENT >>>>>>EFFORT
Skill is mechanical/physical, effort is mental.
That’s why Manny Ramirez’s loafing wouldn’t bother me if we got him to play RF.
by Dave from Louisville on Dec 17, 2008 11:10 PM EST reply actions
As a kid, I bought into Pete Rose making himself a great
player by hustling. Later, I realized that Rose was a great player — a gifted, talented hitter — whether he hustled or loafed. Now, Rose’s effort undoubtedly made him a better player. That he wasn’t injured more often is miraculous, but I’ll take it.
What I’m getting at kind of agrees with Dave from Louisville. Give me the supremely talented guy who loafs a bit over the all-out guy with 25th-man talent and I’ll beat you every time. That pains me to say that. I believe in giving best effort 100 percent of the time. I like players who work hard and hustle, who run to their positions and aren’t afraid to dive for a ball. And I’m not at all opposed to sitting someone on the pine if he repeatedly loafs. If my customers are paying $80 to watch a baseball game they darned well deserve my best effort for their money.
The player I really want is the one who has superstar talent and who hustles, but who has enough sense to know not to run into a wall to catch a pop fly in the eighth inning of a 14-1 game.
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Dec 18, 2008 12:01 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
rec'd
I agree with everything in this post. I like hustle, but I like performance even more.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
Hustleness
Ok, i dont want to get all “when I played the game” but Im gonna go there. I liked playing best with players who had talent AND hustled. Ive played on teams that had more talent and the least talent, and the least talent always eats anal vapors. BUT, lesser talent can take down bigger dogs especially when the lesser team hustles all out, puts pressure on the other team and is fundamentally sound/mentally in the game. There are a lot of aspects of baseball that dont show up in the stat book: being on your toes as opposed to your heels defensively, backing up fellow outfielders, forcing a hurried throw by a defender due to running hard, breaking up a double play by executing a nice take out slide, taking the extra base on missed cut off throws by your opposition, etc, etc, etc.
Dont give me none of that ole bullshit Dorn, get your body in front of it! You know what that makes you? LOLLYGAGGERS!
Perhaps a bigger component is the will or desire to win. Performance is great, dont get me wrong, but I think some players could be so much more than they are with more grit, hard work, determination, spit and vinegar.
I get the long grind of the regular season and its impact on the body. Its not smart to Ryan Freel-it every play, 162 games a year. But it pisses me off to no end to see less than full steam during the playoffs. Despite having seen the play 100x if I still get charged seeing Pete Rose catch that muffed foul pop off Bob Boone’s glove. It was only one play but it most certainly is indicative of how he played the game every inning, every game. But my favorite alltime play in a playoff game is ED 44’s throw to cut down Bonilla at 3rd in the 90 NLCS. And THAT was a hustle play capped by amazing execution.
re:
There are a lot of aspects of baseball that dont show up in the stat book: being on your toes as opposed to your heels defensively, backing up fellow outfielders, forcing a hurried throw by a defender due to running hard, breaking up a double play by executing a nice take out slide, taking the extra base on missed cut off throws by your opposition, etc, etc, etc.
I hate to sound like an extremist, but most of these cases are recorded in the stats to various degrees. I think most statheads focus on the level of results: either a player made the play or he didn’t. This may have been because he was on his toes or on his heels, but the WHY doesn’t really matter.
I'd take it one step further
As Cincinnati fans, Rose really skews our perceptions. There have always been batshit crazy players around, but the one who was also a very good baseball player happened to spend the best part of his career great (ROY, MVP, GGs, 2 WS wins) here; therefore, “running around like a chicken with its head cut off = great player” in the world of the average Reds fan.
Here’s the problem: Name another. No other “all out” player has ever approached the career that Rose had; is there even another that had a “good” career? The vast majority of great players played hard most of the time, but not always (like a certain 3B we know). It’s not a character flaw to trot to 1st on a routine GB to 2nd, or to not take a hard, agressive turn at 1st on every single hit; it’s a realization that a season is 162 games long, and a career is hopefully 15 years long, so you take your shots when it seems appropriate. Do fielders make errors? Of course, and then the hitter looks like an ass (I can’t believe there is no video, picture, or article on the entire interweb of Casey getting thrown out from LF). 99% of the time, though, the player is simply, and rightly, saving his body for a better opportunity.
Often wrong, never uncertain.
Billy Martin & Chris Sabo, too
And I agree with almost all that sid says here…except that he assumes that when a player doesn’t go all-out it is because he is saving his energy. Some of those loafers are lazy or hot dogs or lacking in concentration.
I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. - Bill Veeck
by PeteyHendrix on Dec 18, 2008 6:09 PM EST up reply actions
I loved Sabo's hustle
but detested the times when he simply ran until he was out.
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Dec 20, 2008 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
GREAT question
Sounds like a Rob Neyer book…..The Big Book of Baseball Hustlers.
I really dont have an idea who’d be on that list, even during my lifetime.
BTW
I think I will now refer to Sacrifice Hits as SHits. I can’t believe I’m the first person ever to think of that.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
by Slyde on Dec 18, 2008 8:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If Eckstein has one, does make it an
annoying little …
We Are ... Marshall!
by Thundering Turtle on Dec 20, 2008 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
Anybody here have MLB.TV?
I’ve got the top plays and bottom plays for Encarnacion from David Pinto. I’m looking for someone with MLB.TV to check them out for me if you’ve got time and report back with a description of the plays. Let me know if you are interested in helping out.
We’’re in process of trying to a guy with a trade record of working with pitches
Meant to comment on this earlier, but life intervened and I thankfully missed the whole PeteyHendrix is horseshit bit, since I think it's irrelevant and unable to be proven one way or the other...
Slyde, you said that those projections for EdE were worse than you expected, but I’d really take those next 3 years until Yonder’s ready. He’d have pretty damn good trade value too coming off 3 seasons like that. I like the guy, probably because I feel like I can relate to a quiet guy like EdE, but if we trade him or not it’s not going to make or break the team. He’s gonna be a solid guy for the next 4 or 5 years, for whomever he plays with. He’ll stay polarizing wherever he’s at, but isn’t Edwin Encarnacion going to be a net positive for the team he plays with these next few seasons?
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