Should the Reds move Votto to LF?

by MixFMKyle on Nov 18, 2008 12:36 PM EST Comment 47 comments

I was checkin out John Fay's Blog this morning and caught an interesting tidbit from the Reds Farm Director, Terry Reynolds:

The Hawaii Winter League wrapped up Sunday. The Waikiki BeachBoys, featuring Reds' prospects Yonder Alonso and Todd Frazier, won the title.

Both put up excellent numbers: Alonso hit .308/.419/.510, Frazier .295/.375/.547. Frazier led the league in slugging.

"They both swung the bat really well," farm director Terry Reynolds. "Frazier came back OK from the concussion. It was good to see both of them play well."

The plan for Alonso?

"He'll compete for a job with Carolina," Reynolds said. "If that doesn't work out, he'll be the first baseman with Sarasota."

Apparently, the talk of playing Alonso at third base as well as first is over.

"I would doubt that he'll play any third," Reynolds said. "If he does, it would be out of necessity. He's a first baseman."

So if we take what we know about how good Alonso is, how well he performed in Hawaii, and how the Reds currently do have any other true 1B prospects, you can bet Alonso starts at AA. If he performs well there, he might be able to end the year in AAA, which would make an arrivial sometime in 2010 a big time possibility. If the Reds don't think that Alonso could handle any other position, would 2009 be a wise time to go ahead and move Joey Votto to LF?

Votto played 6 Games of left with the Reds in 2007, and in the same year played 41 games of left field with Louisville. In 2008, Joey ranked in the upper half of first basemen defensively in the NL, and I thought he played defense better than I, or even the Reds even thought he could.

Obviously, moving Votto creates a one to two year hole at first base. Looking at the free agents, it is a hole you can fill easier, and probably more cost effective right now than LF. ( You could also try Encarnacion at 1st, a move I wouldn't oppose to, as most of his errors are in the throwing variety.)

Here are the corner INF options right now on the FA Market from MLB Trade Rumors:

1B

Rich Aurilia (37)
Miguel Cairo (35)
Sean Casey (34)
Tony Clark (37)
Nomar Garciaparra (35)
Jason Giambi (38)
Eric Hinske (31)
Doug Mientkiewicz (35)
Kevin Millar (37)
Richie Sexson (34)
Mark Sweeney (39)
Mark Teixeira (29) - Type A Free Agent
Daryle Ward (34)

3B

Rich Aurilia (37)
Casey Blake (35) - Type B
Willie Bloomquist (31)
Aaron Boone (36)
Russell Branyan (33)
Craig Counsell (38)
Joe Crede (31)
Nomar Garciaparra (35)
Mike Lamb (33)
Mark Loretta (37) - Type B
Ramon Martinez (36)
Pablo Ozuna (34)
Juan Uribe (30) - Type B
Ramon Vazquez (32)

You could get a lot of these guys (Except Teixeira and Blake) on a low-risk one year deal, maybe with a team option for 2010. The nostalgic Reds fan in me thinks it would be cool to sign Sean Casey and platoon him with Keppinger or another RH 1B bat with some pop. I think adding a guy like him even in a part time role would be great for the development of Bruce, Votto, etc. (Not to mention the guy can still get base hits (although the power is still not there).

Thoughts, anyone? Should they leave Votto alone until Alonso is ready, or go ahead and get him adjusted to playing out there. With the money the Reds have Alonso signed for, it is a move that has to happen sometime (unless the Reds trade one of the two). Why not now?

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Comments

I'd be inclined to leave Joey at 1B for this season

But working him and EdE out in LF during spring training should be seen as a HIGH priority.

by Brendanukkah on Nov 18, 2008 1:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Hal Morris had a HGH priority

by ken on Nov 18, 2008 1:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly

Leave him where he is now, but have him get some extra work now and then during the season in LF, even if its in practice.

www.redsminorleagues.com

by dougdirt on Nov 18, 2008 1:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think that is the action the Reds take.

I just would hate to see the Reds do a position change on him mid season.

Find me on MySpace- http://www.myspace.com/mixfmkyle

by MixFMKyle on Nov 18, 2008 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Unless EdE figures 3B out,

they’re going to have to move one of these three. Votto will have a high trade value if he repeats his ‘08 (much higher than EdE’s, anyways), so I’d flip him when Yonder is ready.

by ken on Nov 18, 2008 1:20 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

2010

C- Hanigan/?
1B- Alonso
2B- Phillips
3B- Encarnacion
SS- ? (Maybe Valakia by then)
LF- Votto
CF- Stubbs
RF- Bruce

Thats still a lot of LH Bats.

Find me on MySpace- http://www.myspace.com/mixfmkyle

by MixFMKyle on Nov 18, 2008 1:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

?

Stubbs, Valaika, EdE, and Phillips are RH. how many more do you want?

by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 18, 2008 1:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

oh, and Hanigan too

thats a lot of RH bats.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 18, 2008 1:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Brain Cramp

I thought Stubbs was a lefty…You’re right!

Find me on MySpace- http://www.myspace.com/mixfmkyle

by MixFMKyle on Nov 18, 2008 1:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

im not sure i want to move Votto just yet

he was really good at 1B this past year. but then again, 1B would be much easier to fill-in via free agency. that’s a good question. i guess it will really rely on who we could reasonably sign this winter. and if we are moving Votto to LF, we might as well move EdE over to 1B and get a 3B. damn, lets just get Beltre.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 18, 2008 2:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Yeah I'd like Beltre

Or if we want to go the FA route, I’d sniff around Blake, but I imagine the bids might get too high for him.

Find me on MySpace- http://www.myspace.com/mixfmkyle

by MixFMKyle on Nov 18, 2008 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Correct me if I'm wrong

Votto’s defensive rep is that he has a lot of range and athleticism, but struggles on digging balls out of the dirt, right? Seems that with those tools, he could handle left field. And to echo the sentiment, moving EdE to first would minimize his throwing errors while still keeping an athlete at 1B.

I’m with you though Scrabbles. I’d like to see them make a run at Beltre. Beltre or Burrell, they have to get one of them.

by Brendanukkah on Nov 18, 2008 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

No I think you are right on about Votto

Burrell I think is not going to happen. He will want a four year deal. I would offer the Mariners a trade for Beltre. They obviously would ask for Cueto, but Walt may get it done if he would counter with one of Homer/Darryl Thompson and one of Chris Dickerson/Danny Dorn/Justin Turner.

Walt could even get creative and up the ante some and try and pry Clement from them.

Find me on MySpace- http://www.myspace.com/mixfmkyle

by MixFMKyle on Nov 18, 2008 2:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

i dont think Beltre will cost that much

the Mariners should be looking to rebuild, so they will (hopefully) be looking to move Beltre. there could be a market for him with the likes of the Indians, Twins, and some others looking for 3B. but at 12 mil, he could be seen as overpaid, which could play in our favor. and with the palpable crappiness of their team, they be looking for quantity of quality. covering the whole salary could be enough of a sweetener to get the M’s to relent on our better prospects. i’d give them a package of Thompson/Cumberland/Turner. or if they really want one of our top guys, i’d give them Francisco before anyone else. but im just kinda cold on him is all.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 18, 2008 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

ahem

that should read “they should be looking for quantity over quality”.

by Charlie Scrabbles on Nov 18, 2008 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Do you like the sound of this?

move Votto to LF
trade for Beltre, as you have described
sign Sean Casey to play 1B until Alonzo forces him out
trade Hanigan and EdE in a package to the Dodgers for Russell Martin

that gives us:
CF Dickerson/Freel/Hopper
2B Phillips – R
LF Votto – L
3B Beltre – R
RF Bruce – L
C – R. Martin – R
1B Casey – L
SS AGon/Kep/Hairston – R

Perhaps these 2 trades is a “cheaper” route than free agency…

wow, this is some good chronic they got out here in Cali…

by PeteyHendrix on Nov 19, 2008 2:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That sounds good

but I can’t imagine the Dodgers helping us out like that. They already have promising third basemen/outfielders whom they refuse to play. Also, human emotions aside (as they should be 10010101101) I think there are better placeholder first basemen than Casey.

Right now I’d be most happy with a trade for Beltre and moving Edwin to left.

by Red Menace on Nov 19, 2008 3:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Colletti has already said there is no way they are trading Martin

He laughed at that rumor. Even if they would trade him, I don’t think your offer is enough.

Why have I been blogging for so long? It's certainly not because of the paycheck. Because I could be making a lot more money as a doctor or a professional athlete.

by Slyde on Nov 19, 2008 8:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Random Pic O' the Day

"uhhhhhh. Uhhhhhhhh. Uhhhhhhh. Yeah." ----Peter North

by Pops Daniels on Nov 18, 2008 3:33 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Damn

"uhhhhhh. Uhhhhhhhh. Uhhhhhhh. Yeah." ----Peter North

by Pops Daniels on Nov 18, 2008 3:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't get it.

Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.

by andromache on Nov 18, 2008 3:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

probably for the better

That picture is huge.

Why have I been blogging for so long? It's certainly not because of the paycheck. Because I could be making a lot more money as a doctor or a professional athlete.

by Slyde on Nov 18, 2008 3:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Um

That’s what she said?

"Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est."

by jch24 on Nov 18, 2008 3:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

is it just me or is bleedcubbieblue a terrible blog?

Al is really old school, and thinks Dempster is important because “he’s a good clubhouse guy”, so even though he is coming off a career year and probably won’t come close to repeating 2008, is north of 30, he is diffidently worth the contract he got, because he is an all round good guy.

"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can’t think of at least two ways to spell any word."-Andy Jack

by justin007000 on Nov 18, 2008 4:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I don't know if would consider 'disagreeing with what I think'

to be the hallmark of a ‘terrible blog’. It’s not exactly groundbreaking, but then again, the vast majority of blogs tend not to be.

Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.

by andromache on Nov 18, 2008 4:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

i guess i should have phrased that diferently

does it seem like it is out of sink of SB Nation?

"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can’t think of at least two ways to spell any word."-Andy Jack

by justin007000 on Nov 18, 2008 4:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

No way, "rustin"

LOL!

by Brendanukkah on Nov 18, 2008 4:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

did i miss something?

"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can’t think of at least two ways to spell any word."-Andy Jack

by justin007000 on Nov 18, 2008 4:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

you don't need spellcheck...

you need galvanization!

Sorry, here we’re a bit Kohler than they are at Bleedcubbieblue.

...because there's already someone posing as Jacob Brumfield

by Cy Schourek on Nov 18, 2008 8:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Kohler, which owns among other things Baker Furniture, is old school...

RR is so Moen

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

Sir Winston Churchill

by Madville on Nov 18, 2008 11:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

early hours of a RR party

by ol Pete on Nov 18, 2008 11:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

sean casey for mayor!

Yes We Did!

by Daedalus on Nov 18, 2008 4:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Anyone remember the URL for ESPN's webpage?

Rob Neyer’s column is apparently free again.

(hat tip)

by Red Menace on Nov 18, 2008 5:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I wish we had a "message user" option here

I’d send you URLs that would warp your outlook on all things life. :)

"Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est."

by jch24 on Nov 18, 2008 5:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

and we should be able to write on each other's "walls"

by Red Menace on Nov 18, 2008 5:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I "write" on brendan's mom's walls...

vaginal walls

Think of me what you will...I gotta little space to fill

by chandrathan on Nov 18, 2008 5:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

If you call that writing

It looks more like a bunch of random lines, streaks, and scribbles to me. Joke’s on you, Mr. Illiterate!

by Brendanukkah on Nov 18, 2008 6:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Brooks was here

So was Red

by Red Menace on Nov 18, 2008 6:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

Just like my mother's vaginal walls

Rec’d.

by Brendanukkah on Nov 18, 2008 8:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Quiet you

"Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est."

by jch24 on Nov 18, 2008 5:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Back to the question of moving Joey to LF

Who would play 1st? I guess you could move EdE to first, but then who’s on 3rd? I guess you could put Cherry there for a week until he’s hurt, the replace him with Farney for a couple of weeks until he’s hurt…possible try Gonzo there but he’d get hurt…this whole thing hurts my head.

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

Sir Winston Churchill

by Madville on Nov 19, 2008 12:41 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Kepp?

but then you’re taking out a LFer who would presumably hit better than Kepp.

I’m not sure I’m digging this “move Votto to LF” bit. He seems a bit too stocky to me to play left. I’d rather let Yonder force my hand one way or another, I think.

...because there's already someone posing as Jacob Brumfield

by Cy Schourek on Nov 19, 2008 9:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Plus Yonder's at least a year a way, maybe 2.

Big Big difference hitting at the ML level than anywhere else.

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

Sir Winston Churchill

by Madville on Nov 19, 2008 1:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Votto's defense? Seriously?

If there are defensive metrics out there that suggest that Votto was a good defensive first basemen, then I think we can trash defensive metrics altogether. I love joey Votto. He’s really grown on me this year after I never thought he’d become an above average hitter in the major leagues.

But his defense in 2008 was ATROCIOUS. It’s been a long time since I watched a first baseman struggle with groundballs, remembering to cover first base on ground balls to the hole, and underhanding the ball to the pitcher covering. He also routinely had trouble digging throws out of the dirt.

Joey had trouble consistently all season. I can’t believe people are even suggesting that he had an above average defensive year. This doesn’t mean that he can’t get better, and I hope he does. It just looked like he was learning a brand new position.

by Brian B on Nov 19, 2008 10:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

i'd be willing to guess

but i’m not going to look it up, that most of votto’s errors occurred in the first couple of months. he got noticeably better as the season progressed and was making some stellar plays in the later months.

Yes We Did!

by Daedalus on Nov 20, 2008 1:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

It's his range, as davidmac says below

He made a lot more plays than you would expect, and so statistically he was good defensively.

That being said, I wouldn’t be surprised if his numbers were a little inflated this year. One season of defensive metrics rarely tells the whole story. He obviously has some areas that he can work on – for a while there he was awful with throws to the pitcher. He’s probably not a top 5 defensive player as the metrics suggest, though I think he has the tools to be there at 1B. However, I think he’s better than you give him credit for.

Why have I been blogging for so long? It's certainly not because of the paycheck. Because I could be making a lot more money as a doctor or a professional athlete.

by Slyde on Nov 20, 2008 9:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Joey was has the best range of 1st basemen

which is not surprising because he is probably the best athlete of the NL 1st basemen.
Joey had 57 out of zone plays/ James Loney had the most with 58 but had 139 more innings than Joey.
I think some site has a balls in dirt stat- but just guessing Joey would pretty low in that category. He definitely made awkward plays that you would remember for weeks but he still going to get to alot more balls than the average unathletic 1st basemen.
With the bigger question- I say keep Joey at 1st for this year. If Alonso is ready in 2010 move Joey to left next year.
Keep EE at 3rd base this year- as a last shot. Make Edwin’s defense at 3rd base a top priority in spring. If Edwin continues to rate out as the last 3rd basemen defensively next year unless he can take his offense well above 850- its probably time for Edwin to move out of the organization in 2010 if Alanso is ready.

by davidmac84 on Nov 20, 2008 12:56 AM EST reply actions 0 recs