Red Reporter: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:



New Blog: Five For Howling - for Coyotes fans Bar-right-arrows



Who is the 2008 Reds MVP?

I was thinking about this over the weekend, trying to parse who the local baseball writers would pick to win the Ernie Lombardi Award for the team MVP.  I mean, I'm pretty sure I know who is going to win it, but I wanted to post something other than playoff threads, so play along, okay?

It's obvious who will win the Johnny Vander Meer award for most outstanding pitcher.  Edinson Volquez has had that locked up since May.  But I think there are 4 guys who are contenders for the ELA - well, three contenders and one guy who should get consideration but likely won't.  Those four are Brandon Phillips, Joey Votto, Jerry Hairston, and Adam Dunn.  Let's look at the case for each:

Brandon Phillips

PA R 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO AVG OBP SLG RAR FRAR TTL VALUE
609 80 24 7 21 78 23 10 39 93 .261 .312 .442 13.6 9.7 24.2
* RAR = Justin Inaz's hitting runs above replacement; FRAR = fielding runs above replacement; Ttl Value = RAR + FRAR + adjustment for defensive position

6857_medium

The Case for Phillips: There is a lot of talk about this being "his team." After Griffey and Dunn were traded, the media pretty much assumed that Phillips was the de facto team leader, and the Reds put up a winning record (albeit just 22-21) after those trades.  He lead the team in runs, triples, and stolen bases and he finished 2nd in RBI, 3rd in doubles, and 4th in HR.  He is also arguably the best defensive second baseman in the league and likely the best defensive player on the Reds.

The Case against Phillips: Despite missing nearly a whole month of the season, Phillips led the Reds in outs made by 10% over second place.  His RBI total is deceptive because Phillips batted in the 4th spot most of the season and had the benefit of nearly 50 more base runners on for him than Joey Votto, who led the team in RBI.  He batted just .208/.270/.356 after Dunn was traded before injury finished his season.  So, despite the team leader moniker, his performance was not a big factor in the Reds late season improvement.

Star-divide

Joey Votto

PA R 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO AVG OBP SLG RAR FRAR TTL VALUE
589 69 32 3 24 84 7 5 59 102 .297 .368 .506 37.7 10.2 40.3

7946_medium

The Case for Votto: Even though this was his rookie season, he led the team in hits, doubles, and RBI.  For qualifiers, he was first in batting average, 2nd in OBP, and 2nd in slugging.  He was easily the team leader in Total Value and RAR.  From the middle of August until the end of the season he batted .343/.429/.664 with 10 HR in 39 games.  Those are Pujolsian numbers.  And as we know, when it comes to MVP type votes, all that matters is how you played down the stretch.

The Case against Votto: His 11 errors were tied for second most on the team.  His defensive numbers in Justin's system are probably a bit over-inflated because the systems he reports out of do not capture a first baseman's ability to pick it on a teammates throw.  Even still, his range makes up a large portion of that difference and it's unlikely that any unrecorded deficiencies in his defensive game will be enough to make up for the 15 run lead he has over all other Reds players.  It is also unclear as to whether his Canadian heritage should be held against him for a purely American award such as this.

Jerry Hairston Jr.

PA R 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO AVG OBP SLG RAR FRAR TTL VALUE
297 47 20 2 6 36 15 3 23 36 .326 .384 .487 23.1 0.5 24.7

6127_medium

The Case for Hairston: In the time that he played, it's hard to argue with his performance.  If he had enough at bats to qualify, Hairston would have easily led the Reds in batting average and OBP.  He was even better when hitting from the lead-off spot, putting up a .362/.427/.537 in 202 PAs while batting first.  The Reds were 35-27 in games in which Cherry started, which is a number that doesn't mean as much as the writers will make it mean when they announce him as the winner.

The Case against Hairston: The only real argument against Hairston is the first number in his stat table above.  Injuries and a general reputation of shitty baseball at the start of the season limited his playing time.  If Hairston had performed over 600 PAs as he did over 300 PAs, then it would be nigh impossible to vote against him.  Heck, even if he had only 100 more PAs, he might have a serious shot.

Adam Dunn

PA R 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO AVG OBP SLG RAR FRAR TTL VALUE
464 58 14 0 32 74 1 1 80 120 .233 .373 .528 31.6 -2.9 24.8

6763_medium

The Case for Dunn: When he was traded, Dunn led the Reds in HR, RBI, BB, OBP, SLG, and Total Value.  Despite playing a month and a half with the Diamondbacks, Dunn still finished 2nd on the Reds in total value.  There is precedent for a traded player winning the award as Jose Guillen took home the award in 2003 even after being traded to the Oakland A's (Michael was FURIOUS!).

The Case against Dunn:  Let's face it, there really isn't a case for Dunn.  I can't find any record of him winning the award when he was in town, so I doubt he'll win it now that he's gone.  Plus, Votto's last month torched any record of Dunn having played for the Reds this year.  If he had been able to maintain his team lead in RBI or Total Value, then I think you could make a case, but it's unlikely at this point.  I just figured if I wanted people to talk about this post, I should bring Dunn's name up.

Does anyone know where I can find a list of past winners?  The internet has only given me back to 2001 and I can't find out who won in 2004 (probably Dunn, but who knows?).  Here are the winners of the Ernie Lombardi Award that I have found:

2001 - Dmitri Young
2002 - Aaron Boone
2003 - Jose Guillen
2004 - ? Sean Casey
2005 - Ken Griffey Jr.
2006 - Rich Aurilia
2007 - Brandon Phillips

Who will it be in 2008?

Poll
Who is the 2008 Reds MVP?
Brandon Phillips
16 votes
Joey Votto
196 votes
Jerry Hairston
12 votes
Adam Dunn
21 votes

245 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs | Comment 74 comments

Read Related

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

i know the writers will pick PHillips or Harriston

but Phillips OBP is .312 that is kinda terrible.

"It will put a smile on your face to see a Chevy with a Soviet transmission"

by justin007000 on Oct 6, 2008 10:36 AM EDT   0 recs

I voted for Dunn

Is it really even a question?

Vote Pops in '08. I promise nothing and I'll do it!

by Pops Daniels on Oct 6, 2008 10:38 AM EDT   0 recs

Voted for Votto

But it would have really been something to see Dunn play a full season, with Votto batting third, Dunn at cleanup, and Bruce 5th. That’s a combo that would have mashed.

by Brendanukkah on Oct 6, 2008 10:56 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

that's a combo

that would have seen a lot of LOOGY’s late in games.

I am Bill S. Preston, Esquire.

by Dubman on Oct 6, 2008 11:04 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

nah

the Reds would already be up Umpteen to zilch. Why would the other team waste a pitcher?

"You never want to give up a 7-0 lead, in your rival's ballpark, that would put them in first place. Never want to do that." - Ron Darling

by Slyde on Oct 6, 2008 11:05 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

it is too bad the post is gone

since it had a deep archieve

"It will put a smile on your face to see a Chevy with a Soviet transmission"

by justin007000 on Oct 6, 2008 10:45 AM EDT   0 recs

Jo-eh! In a landslide!

Phillips just wasn’t as good, and Dunn wasn’t here for the whole season.

I penalize dunn for being traded just the same as I would a player for being injured. That said, it’s a joke to include Cherry Hudson in this list.

by chandrathan on Oct 6, 2008 10:51 AM EDT   0 recs

Dunn was about to win the award in 2004

But then the Red Sox roared back from the brink of elimination and won it instead. I can’t believe you don’t remember that, Slyde.

by Brendanukkah on Oct 6, 2008 10:54 AM EDT   0 recs

i hope that Joey's surge

in the absence of BP will be enough to push him over. i doubt it though. the writers really like BP, and despite what Slyde would have you believe, there is good cause for it. but he’s still not the best player on the team.

"for integrity of races and the game" - Dusty Baker

by Charlie Scrabbles on Oct 6, 2008 10:55 AM EDT   0 recs

i don't think Hal likes BP

i don’t know if he counts anymore but C. Trent didn’t like BP.

"It will put a smile on your face to see a Chevy with a Soviet transmission"

by justin007000 on Oct 6, 2008 11:02 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Vottomatic for the people

There’s a case for BP, especially defensively, and if Cherry had more ABs he’d be in the conversation as well, but it seems like with Dunn and Griff gone, Votto really stepped up and although I haven’t seen the numbers, looked like the best player on the team over the last two months of the season.

"My wife ain't never ran and got me no pheasant." - Fistbands

by BK on Oct 6, 2008 11:05 AM EDT   0 recs

Joey came on at the end of the season but BP is the winner by default.

With Dunn out of the picture, over the course of the long season, BP performed next best offensively, and there can be no doubt that Brandon is the the best denfensive player on the team.

Ibn Khaldoun and Hulrich Zwingli - now that's real reform, Mr. McCain.

by Madville on Oct 6, 2008 11:18 AM EDT   0 recs

However

Votto hit better than Phillips 5 out of 6 months this season (July being the exception), one of which (September) BP was almost completely absent.

Often wrong, never uncertain.

by sidnancy on Oct 6, 2008 1:43 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Oh, and this
over the course of the long season, BP performed next best offensively

This is not true, either. EdE hit better over the course of the year, and except for his atrocious May outhit BP by a wide margin every month (at least 100 pts of OPS every month other than August, which was 45).

Looking at EdE’s stats, who here realized that except for May his OPS was .861? Do you think there would be nearly as many calls for a trade if he’d hit anything at all in May?

Often wrong, never uncertain.

by sidnancy on Oct 6, 2008 2:00 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

2004

Was probably Sean Casey

Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds

by Caleb on Oct 6, 2008 12:00 PM EDT   0 recs

you're right

I think it was. He had a good year that year. Amazing that Dunn never won the award.

"You never want to give up a 7-0 lead, in your rival's ballpark, that would put them in first place. Never want to do that." - Ron Darling

by Slyde on Oct 6, 2008 12:06 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

youre really amazed at that?

are you drinking?

"for integrity of races and the game" - Dusty Baker

by Charlie Scrabbles on Oct 6, 2008 12:12 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

yep

It was Casey in 2004.

"You never want to give up a 7-0 lead, in your rival's ballpark, that would put them in first place. Never want to do that." - Ron Darling

by Slyde on Oct 6, 2008 12:12 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Vottomatic Teller is money.

That is all.

Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.

by andromache on Oct 6, 2008 12:16 PM EDT   0 recs

Anyone else see

the Twins are making Delmon Young available? They want a 3b or SS which we really don’t have either but I would love for him to be our right handed bat pickup in the offseason. He has still got a lot of potential and put up pretty solid numbers as the season progressed.

by kennythered on Oct 6, 2008 12:23 PM EDT   0 recs

he was terrible defensively this season

I suppose he could regress back to mediocre, but according to Justin’s numbers, he cost the Twins as many runs compared to replacement level in LF as Edwin cost the Reds at 3B. Given that the defensive standard in LF is about as low as it gets, that’s pretty bad. Sure he’s talented, but I’ve always felt like he was offensively a little overrated. He reminds me of Brandon Phillips, which would be great if he was an excellent defender up the middle, but as a LF I’m not all that interested. I’d rather put EdE there.

"You never want to give up a 7-0 lead, in your rival's ballpark, that would put them in first place. Never want to do that." - Ron Darling

by Slyde on Oct 6, 2008 12:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I would think about it

based on the projections and his age (just turned 23). Plus, if we think we need to move Edwin at some point anyways because he can’t stick at third, this would be a very good haul.

I wonder if Young’s defensive scores for this year are a blip. It’s just hard to believe he’s that bad in LF given how athletic he’s supposed to be. He was in the middle of the pack last year as a RF.

by ken on Oct 6, 2008 1:16 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Justin's system has him at -10.2 RAR on defense last year

He was -3.4 in RF(1134 innings) and -6.8 in CF (242 innings).

I honestly don’t know a lot about Young, but his 5.7% walk rate does not make me optimistic about his sustained long-term success as an MLB hitter. Not that he’ll be bad, just that he’ll be very inconsistent. I’d rather pursue a player with a more proven track record or a player with a more broad skillset.

"You never want to give up a 7-0 lead, in your rival's ballpark, that would put them in first place. Never want to do that." - Ron Darling

by Slyde on Oct 6, 2008 1:47 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

He could grow into a more patient hitter

His l/t PECOTAs project a 300/350/500 hitter (and they were right about his avg/obp this year, though high on the slugging), which is an acceptable walk rate for someone who makes a lot of contact and can run. For defense I was looking at RZR, which agrees with Justin that Young was bad this year but almost average in right last year.

I can’t belive I forgot that Young is the guy who threw the bat at the ump in Durham. I don’t usually care about character issues, but this might indicate that he’s 1) uncoachable, and 2) such an egregious jerk that he’s not worth the upside. It also indicates that the Nationals are sure to be in on a bidding war.

by ken on Oct 6, 2008 2:22 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I didn't forget that

but I don’t know anything about him beyond that.

Other than that, I stand by my Brandon Phillips comp.

"You never want to give up a 7-0 lead, in your rival's ballpark, that would put them in first place. Never want to do that." - Ron Darling

by Slyde on Oct 6, 2008 2:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

haha

Yeah the guy obviously has issues. I did not look at his defensive numbers but it is so hard for me to believe that he was that bad on defense. The guy has a great arm and has good speed, I wonder what’s the deal. Oh well, but I agree with you Slyde, a Phillips comp fits well with less speed and maybe a little more power. I’m still for signing Juan Rivera over trading anyone!

by kennythered on Oct 6, 2008 2:33 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I remember being appalled by the bat incident

But it seems to be his only transgression, and he was 20 years old.

 The guy was a #1 overall pick, I would imagine the rest of his skills will come around. I’m not advocating EdE for him, but he’s a classic buy low candidate.

"Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est."

by jch24 on Oct 6, 2008 2:57 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

He was also hanging out with Elijah Dukes

I ain’t e’en bullshittin’

Kentuck Arts Festival: October 18th.
Details at Sinful Savage Tigers

by Man Mountain on Oct 6, 2008 3:29 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

If he's hanging with Dukes

I would consider him radioactive. That boy is CRAY-ZEE.

"Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est."

by jch24 on Oct 6, 2008 3:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

"was"; they shared the same outfield

I dated a girl for a while who worked for the Bulls when both Young and Dukes played for them.

She thought that Young was just immature and that his high profile went to his head.

Dukes, on the other hand, scared her. He seems like a genuinely bad guy.

PS: I thought the bat throwing incident was kind of funny, just because the bat came flying in from off-screen.

Kentuck Arts Festival: October 18th.
Details at Sinful Savage Tigers

by Man Mountain on Oct 6, 2008 4:35 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I never got a sense of egregious-ocity from the bat incident.

All the footage I ever saw was of Young walking away from the ump and tossing his bat away violently.

Clearly a reckless and unacceptable display of temper, but not all that far off of what we’ve seen major league players do.

Of course, depending on his price, that could definitely be a tipping point on yea or nay.

Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.

by andromache on Oct 6, 2008 4:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Thoughts

1. You should have also included Volquez. Whether he will win or not, I think he’s more deserving than either Phillips (whose OPS+ was only 92) or Hairston.

2. Is it really any more surprising that Hairston will win Red of the Year, when the national media will select Justin Morneau in the top 3 of AL MVP?

Often wrong, never uncertain.

by sidnancy on Oct 6, 2008 1:47 PM EDT   0 recs

Volquez is not eligible for the Ernie Lombardi award

That’s why he was not included.

"You never want to give up a 7-0 lead, in your rival's ballpark, that would put them in first place. Never want to do that." - Ron Darling

by Slyde on Oct 6, 2008 1:49 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

That's stupid.

Who made up that rule?

Often wrong, never uncertain.

by sidnancy on Oct 6, 2008 2:01 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I did.

"You never want to give up a 7-0 lead, in your rival's ballpark, that would put them in first place. Never want to do that." - Ron Darling

by Slyde on Oct 6, 2008 2:02 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Well

Then you’re stupid!

Often wrong, never uncertain.

by sidnancy on Oct 6, 2008 2:09 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

that seems to be a growing sentiment

"You never want to give up a 7-0 lead, in your rival's ballpark, that would put them in first place. Never want to do that." - Ron Darling

by Slyde on Oct 6, 2008 2:10 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

nerd

"for integrity of races and the game" - Dusty Baker

by Charlie Scrabbles on Oct 6, 2008 2:43 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Low five for the link

It also looks like a FEMA branch director was one of those arrested. “You’re doing a heckuva job, Backe!”

by ken on Oct 6, 2008 2:51 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

How long have you been waiting to use that jewel?

"Yes, and it's so important in this sport that the athletes be able to train in the same location." -Cynthia Potter, NBC Synchronized Diving Analyst

by 3 Fast 3 Furious on Oct 6, 2008 3:07 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

well, to be fair

Backe hadn’t punched an umpire (or a cop) yet.

"You never want to give up a 7-0 lead, in your rival's ballpark, that would put them in first place. Never want to do that." - Ron Darling

by Slyde on Oct 6, 2008 3:33 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

when?

I don’t remember that.

"You never want to give up a 7-0 lead, in your rival's ballpark, that would put them in first place. Never want to do that." - Ron Darling

by Slyde on Oct 6, 2008 3:42 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

wow, you are on fire today

making a case for becoming Mr. October of RR?

...because there's already someone posing as Jacob Brumfield

by Cy Schourek on Oct 6, 2008 5:24 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

splat

"My wife ain't never ran and got me no pheasant." - Fistbands

by BK on Oct 6, 2008 3:24 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

What the hell is the point of going to weddings

if not for opening containers in motel pools?

Kentuck Arts Festival: October 18th.
Details at Sinful Savage Tigers

by Man Mountain on Oct 6, 2008 4:38 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I need to go to more weddings in Kentucky

...because there's already someone posing as Jacob Brumfield

by Cy Schourek on Oct 6, 2008 5:24 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

No you don't

TRUST ME.

"Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est."

by jch24 on Oct 6, 2008 5:38 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

psst.

you can go to weddings and not be the one getting married. ’s true.

Kentuck Arts Festival: October 18th.
Details at Sinful Savage Tigers

by Man Mountain on Oct 6, 2008 7:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Say WHAT?

Those sumbitches lied to me!

I was married in St. Thomas actually, as I’m not a big fan of spending a ton of money to hang out in a church and bingo hall. Never understood the whole “fairy tale wedding” thing either. But all of that is subject matter for another time. An S.I.S Diary, maybe? :)

"Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est."

by jch24 on Oct 6, 2008 7:58 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

that is because you are a man

"It will put a smile on your face to see a Chevy with a Soviet transmission"

by justin007000 on Oct 6, 2008 7:59 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Boobs

What happened to our favorite poll option?

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Oct 6, 2008 4:57 PM EDT   0 recs

Yeah.

Also I wanted to vote for Juan Casto.

Hey Dusty...Are you sure you're OK? You might need an MRI.

by Paul Householder on Oct 6, 2008 6:14 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

which reminds me...

Brendan (and anyone else going to the USA-Cuba game): what do you think of making a big sign that says: “Don’t blame me, I voted for ”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista" >Batista!"

...because there's already someone posing as Jacob Brumfield

by Cy Schourek on Oct 6, 2008 7:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Cuba?

cue justin in 3…2…1..

"You never want to give up a 7-0 lead, in your rival's ballpark, that would put them in first place. Never want to do that." - Ron Darling

by Slyde on Oct 6, 2008 7:35 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

how'd you know i went to cuba?

i saw team usa kick team cuba’s ass in the 2006 pan-american baseball classic in Havana.

I’m adding Argentina to the list of countries, unfortunatly it isn’t Communist, too bad ONU doesn’t have a study abroad relationship with Venuzuala.

"It will put a smile on your face to see a Chevy with a Soviet transmission"

by justin007000 on Oct 6, 2008 7:52 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

but

it does have a sturdy relationship with a broad named Venuzuala.

Kentuck Arts Festival: October 18th.
Details at Sinful Savage Tigers

by Man Mountain on Oct 6, 2008 8:39 PM EDT to parent up   2 recs

rec'd

i giggles

"It will put a smile on your face to see a Chevy with a Soviet transmission"

by justin007000 on Oct 6, 2008 8:40 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

giggled*

"It will put a smile on your face to see a Chevy with a Soviet transmission"

by justin007000 on Oct 6, 2008