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Sabermetrics

I wanted to know, as a fan just getting to know sabermetrics, if I properly applied it in a debate I was involved in on another forum.  I never thought about sabermetrics until this site, and I want to know if I am basically on target.  

Question?
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Originally posted by antlers
Why is WHIP not as good as ERA. Because 1 homerun given up doesn't equate to one walk. If you can give up a couple hits, but get out of the inning with key strikeouts, that's much better than giving up a homerun or something. The team with the most hits and walks doesn't win the ball game. Runs matter.
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(MY RESPONSE)

There are pitchers who give up a lot of homeruns but yet can keep a decent ERA. Harang and Lily tied for the 10th in most homeruns (28) given up in the MLB last season, and both had ERA's in the 3's.

In 2006 Arroyo and Harren were tied for 8th and allowed 31 homeruns, Arroyo's ERA was 3.29, and Harren's, was 4.12. They got away with that because Haren's WHIP was 1.21, and Arroyo's was 1.19.

If a pitcher gives up a homerun a start, but doesn't give up a lot of hits or walks, so the homeruns are mostly solo's it doesn't hurt him. I really don't care how many homeruns a starting pitcher gives up, if a relief pitcher is prone to homeruns that is another story.

To think about this logically, a pitcher (X) lets say keeps a WHIP of 1.17 and allows 1.3 HR/9. He will mostly give up solo's, because he doesn't allow that many baserunners, so his ERA will stay low. But another picher (Y) has a WHIP of 1.51, and has allows less then a homerun/9 , there will be so many baserunners a lot of runners will score, and when he does give up a homerun, it is probably be more damaging. In fact it is possible pitcher X who will probably give up about one homerun every start, may allow the same amount of runs via the homerun, but because he doens't allow many baserunners, less runs overall, pitcher Y who will allow a homerun lets say 2 out of every three starts.

Plus if a pitcher has a high WHIP (especially if he has a high bb/9), he will not beable to throw as many innings as a pitcher with a low WHIP. It means he will be allowing a lot of hits, and walks, and it will take him more pitches to complete an inning. Also if he allows a lot of walks hitters will probably be more patient, and work him deeper in counts, then say a guy like Greg Maddux who is a strike throwing machine. So it may take apitcher, who has a WHIP of 1.55, 100 pitches to complete 5 innings, where as a pitcher with a WHIP of 1.18 will beable to complete 6 or 7 innings with 100 pitches. How many CG lines do you see where a pitcher allows 10 hits and 4 walks?

Pitchers can suceede in Cincinnati, Philley, Colarado, Houston, and the other "hitter friendy parks" if they keep there WHIP's low. There ERA might be a little higher, because they will give up a few cheap homeruns, but if they give up solo homeruns it won't really damage them.

WHIP also equalies the ballparks, because a pitcher who pitches for San Diego, or Oakland will give up less homeruns then if he pitched in the above mention ballparks. The WHIP can give us an idea of how he will pitch in more hitter friendly environoments.

You also said key strikeouts. Relaying on "key strikeouts" game after game after game isn't practicle. That is like saying a guy knows how to win. Eventually the odds will catch up to him, and instead of getting that "key strikeout" or that "clutch double play", eventually he will allow a homerun when he is in trouble. Basically the less trouble a pitcher is in the less runs he will give up, it is elementary. How many times have you watched a game and saw a pitcher, who skated out of trouble for the first three innings, maybe allows 11 baserunners in the first three innings, but only 1 or 2 score, and then in the 4th he completly blows up, and allows a 3 run homerun. The other thing is sacrifice flys, if a pitcher allows a baserunner to reach, he steals second, reaches third on a ball hit to the right side of the infield, all it takes is a sack fly and he is "manufactored"."

(I would like to learn more about sabermetrics, and I hope this is a diary in which to discuss just that.  I am a little gunshy about diaries, because I had a period in which I put up several useless ones.  I just didn't know where this belonged in an already existing thread)

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For a first foray into sabermetrics....
you did pretty well.

One thing that I think bears mentioning is what us stat-heads mean by a "better" stat.  It seems self-evident, but I think that a lot of "old school" vs. "new school" debates stem from the fact that the people debating misunderstand a very basic element about the other side's argument.  You ran into a bit of that here, and we run into it all the time at this site.

Old-schoolers are interested in a player's present value.  They have their fan hats on, and want to know how a player is affecting the team right now.  Want to know how good a pitcher is?  Easy.  The less runs a pitcher gives up, the better.  ERA is earned runs allowed per nine innings.  Doesn't get any better than that.  Want to know how good a run producer a hitter is?  The more runs a batter drives in, the better.  RBIs!  In this frame, they're absolutely right.  The best record of how well a pitcher prevented runs (or is preventing runs) is his ERA.  The best measure of how many runs a batter drove in is RBI.  What the hell is so difficult to understand about that?

We stat-heads think a little differently.  We want to project future value.  We have our GM hats on, and want to know who we should go after in the offseason.  We want to know what a player can be expected to do next season, the season after that, and the season after that.  ERA isn't as reliable for that because it fluctuates so much due to luck.  We can actually predict a pitcher's ERA better using last year's WHIP than we can using last year's ERA.  How did I predict that Jason Jennings was going to suck this year?  His ERA drop in '06 came without improving his K, BB or G/F numbers, indicating dumb luck was at work.  RBI's are a favorite sabermetric whipping boy because they're stubbornly reliant on people getting on base in front of you.  Why did Ryan Howard have 30 more RBI than Adam Dunn despite very similar batting lines?  (answer: Chase Utley's .410 OBP).  A lot of old-schoolers make fun of "luck" stats, saying "Why do we need to know what these guys would do in an alternate universe?"  Every season is an alternate universe.

That's a very long way of saying that WHIP is a better stat in that it does a better job of predicting future performance than does ERA.  If you want to know who you should give your Cy Young vote to, ERA is fine.  If you want to know who to trade for in your fantasy keeper league, WHIP is better.

"Karma - there it was. The meaning of life, straight from Carson Daly's lips to my morphine-laced ears." -Earl Hickey

by BLee2525 on Jan 2, 2008 8:27 PM EST reply actions  

Don't overvalue WHIP
A high WHIP is typically indicative of a bad pitcher, but WHIP also falls into the same pitfalls as ERA.  Both statistics are highly dependent on team defense, WHIP because of the hits, ERA because, well, a lot of shit usually happens between the time a pitcher throws a pitch and a runner scores, most of which is out of the pitchers control.  Personally, I don't think WHIP is that much more valuable than ERA.

I think you've got the gist of what WHIP means when you say, "the less trouble a pitcher is in the less runs he will give up," but I get the impression that you may be missing what the real goal of the analysis is.  

Ultimately, what we want to know is what pitcher can we depend on in the future?  If you see a pitcher with a higher ERA than would be indicated by his WHIP, that is, he's given up more runs than you might expect for the number of runners he's let on base, then you'd probably be better off with him than a pitcher who constantly gets out of jams because he allows a lot of base runners. Like you said, eventually it will come back to haunt that second guy.

As I'm typing this I see BLee's response and he's right about what he is saying, especially since it's basically what I am saying too. :)

One last thing I would add is that a pitcher's value becomes more predictable if we can take the affect of the defense out of the equation.  That's why you'll see most statheads spouting things like K/9, BB/9, and HR/9 when discussing how good a pitcher is.  On a season by season basis, those things are much more predictable than ERA or WHIP, especially for a guy that is changing teams.  So while WHIP may be a better predictor than ERA, I'll take the other 3 over WHIP any day if I'm trying to determine what sort of success a pitcher will have in the future.

I'm not superstitious...but I am a little stitious.

by Slyde on Jan 2, 2008 8:39 PM EST reply actions  

I like to lookat all 3
For example Nolan Ryan's career WHIP was 1.25, which is damn good over the course of his career, his K/9 is 9.55 which is pretty fucking amazing, but his BB/9 is 4.67.  He was able to make up for his walks, because he missed a lot of bats, and when hitters did make contact they didn't get alot of hits.  

On the opposite side of that spectrum is Greg Maddux.  His career WHIP is 1.24 K/9 is at 6.12, which is fine but nothing amazing.  His BB/9 is 1.81.  He doesn't strikeout very many hitters, but he walks even less people.  I think his hit rate is the difference maker, because he has allowed 8.45 H/9.  So even though a lot of guys make contact, 59% of the time the balls are on the ground.  So he has been sucessful as a "pitch to contact" guy.  

I think guys like Webb, or Zambrano who feature a sinker, will continue to be effective as they lose velocity and miss less bats, because even when hitters make contact, they don't make solid contact.  In both cases a majority of the outs recorded were via groundballs.  

The Dusty path to the World Series!

by justin0070000 on Jan 2, 2008 9:00 PM EST up reply actions  

As a sabermetrically challenged 'old schooler'
I applaud the commentaries by BLee2525, Slyde and justin007000. Your comments, gentlemen, have given me a clearer understanding of the purpose and function of sabermetrics. Finally someone has clarified the difference in point of view between 'old schoolers' and 'saberdudes'.  
"Cool Papa Bell hit a line drive right past my ear. I turned around and saw the ball hit his ass sliding into second." - Satchel Paige

by Madville on Jan 2, 2008 10:01 PM EST reply actions  

WHIP...
...is essentially telling you the same thing as OBP allowed--i.e. how many people get on base per three outs (that's slightly different than a per-PA stat, but still getting at the same idea for the most part).  Certainly that's a really important thing to know, because getting on base is really important to scoring runs.  And it's much more informative than batting average against, because you're getting information about walks in addition to hits.

But it's also important to know how well pitchers prevent hitters from advancing runners around the bases (e.g. doubles, triples, homers), because that's the other component to scoring runs.  And WHIP largely ignores that.  So from my perspective, using only WHIP to evaluate a pitcher's performance is like using only OBP to evaluate a hitter...

ERA includes information about not only getting on base, but also advancement around the bases.  So from the perspective of trying to understand what happened in the past, I much prefer ERA.  And I will say that some of us statheads are pretty interested in questions of historical performance. :)

As Slyde point out, though, ERA (and WHIP) can be vary wildly from season to season due to team defense quality, and probably more importantly to "luck", such as non-repeatable variation in how events are clustered (e.g. Matt Belisle's three grand slams allowed last season) or the frequency of "ground balls with eyes".  In fact, once you factor out strikeouts and homers, hit rates (Batting Average on Balls in Play, or BABIP) vary much more across years for individual pitchers than they vary consistently between pitchers.  

K/9, BB/9, and HR/9 (or, even better, GB%) on the other hand, are very stable measures of pitcher skill from year to year, and seem to be the best ways to understand the degree to which performance is due to skill or luck.  And you can use Tom Tango's FIP stat to estimate the ERA a pitcher will tend to get given their peripherals--that can be extremely helpful in trying evaluate the summed effects of strikeout, walk, and homer rates when, for example, you have someone like Ryan with great strikeouts but high walks..

Anyway, the point is that (like Slyde said) if you're after prediction, then peripheral-based analysis seems to be the way to go.  On the other hand, some statheads like myself are interested in documenting historical performance and value too.  And ERA does a fine job in that case, though many prefer RA because ERA is a bit too kind to groundball pitchers.  

I honestly don't pay much attention to WHIP because, depending on the question at hand, there are better statistics out there that are just as easily accessible.  It's not that it's a bad stat, of course.  It's just that there are better options.
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 3, 2008 1:40 AM EST reply actions  

Heres a question?
How accurate is sabermetrics compared to old school formula? If your are predicting the outcome of a player before the year starts and do a regressional analysis, how often are you in the ball park of your predictions? I mean, instincts tells me a guy has batting avg. 305 and 25 hr and 100 rbi's over the last five years that he will proably do the same again this coming year as long he is still in his prime. How often are saberheads correct in predicting who is going to have a break out year because his peripherals.

Another question, sabermetricsvs vs. oldschool sounds alomost identical to the debate between traditional vs. technical investing as in where technical investors could care less about anything about the company, but only cares about the price of the stock or the option to indiacte what way the stock will move.  Traditional investors care more p/o and bottom line, the product itself, economics of the business. So the question is do any of you saberheads invest and if so how do you invest?

by gocolts on Jan 3, 2008 2:28 PM EST reply actions  

I don't know about the old school formula
but here are the regression results for the major projection systems for 2006:

Hitters
PECOTA .736
Shandler .702
BIS/James .685
ZiPS .684
Chone .677
Marcel .664

Pitchers
ZiPS .459
PECOTA .451
BIS/James .445
Marcel .432
Chone .424
Shandler .423
Prior YearFIP .370
Prior Year .290

I believe that hitters compared OPS and pitchers compared ERA.  The most glaring thing about these lists is how hard it is to project pitchers' ERA.   Hitters are much easier to project.

I'm not superstitious...but I am a little stitious.

by Slyde on Jan 3, 2008 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

rrreat!
I'm not superstitious...but I am a little stitious.

by Slyde on Jan 3, 2008 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

projections
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/2006_projection_results/

Here'a a look at how the pre-season projections fared in 2006 (I must have missed the results for 2007). I can't say how they did against somebody's gut feelings, but the prior year's stats correlate worse than anything.

by Red Menace on Jan 3, 2008 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

2007 results
Nate silver ran '07 projection comparisons after this season:

Hitters: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=564
Pitchers: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=569

PECOTA and ZiPS for hitters, and CHONE and PECOTA for pitchers.  In '07 anyway.

I always marvel at how well Marcel does vs. the more sophisticated systems, given how intentionally simple it is (3 year weighted average of mlb stats, simple aging curve across all hitters and pitchers, regression to the mean...and that's it).  Bad news when one's system underperforms it.
-j

by JinAZ on Jan 3, 2008 7:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Zachametrics is way more fun
I only use HGH in the postseason, but everything else is the real me-Mike Stantons Conscience

by Zach K on Jan 3, 2008 7:14 PM EST reply actions  

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