Publicly Most Ignored Players

by buckeye22fox on Aug 25, 2007 12:17 AM EDT

Just my opinion based on some stats and how I think the public has perceived the players. Granted my perception is a whopping 24 years, so I may not have the proper merit to opine. Forty or 50 somethings probably would have better perception than my age group and the older, more senile age group of 60 and older. Four Hall of Famers are listed below, but most don't know that they existed or do not draw proper comparisons to other time period players.

Todd Helton (career .330/.429/.583 but at Coors Field .367/.464/.664 or would be higher)
Mike Mussina (247 Wins, 15 straight double digit win years, .633 winning %)
Adam Dunn (#5 all-time HR per AB, #21 active OBP, career .248/.379/.519)
Chuck Klein (career .320/.379/.543 300 HR)
Edgar Martinez (career .312/.418/.515 would be higher but the DH is kinda like cheating)
Larry Doby (Should be mentioned with Jackie Robinson in all discussions)
Lefty O' Doul (Rick Ankiel type comeback career.349/.413/.542)
George Foster (348 HR 1239 RBI)
Harry Heilmann (career .342/.410/.520 OPS .930)
Johnny Mize (career .312/.397/.562/ OPS .9591 359 HR)

For quelling of arguments against this opinion, I do not think Adam Dunn is better than Todd Helton over career numbers. It is just that Adam Dunn is incredibly publicly omitted compared to Helton's semi-well noted career. Even Dunn opponents can agree that there has never been a formidable power hitter as publicly ignored as Dunn.

Johnny who? Mize had a better OPS than Willie Mays, Mel Ott, Ken Griffey, and other more famed players. Unbelievable career and nobody seems to mention him anymore.

More personal opinion, but it was hard to find ignored pitchers. A couple to ponder: Antonio Alfonseca, John Franco, Troy Percival, Dan Quisenberry, and Bob Welch.

This was a production due to boredom at work.

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Comments

dunn is #5 all time in AB per HR??

holy shit. i knew he was a strong bastard, but i didnt know he was that prolific.

and still there is a question as to whether or not we pick up a measly option year...

at least this isnt pittsburgh

by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 25, 2007 12:40 AM EDT reply actions

yeah thanks sarcastic one

but technically he has still hit .071 HR/AB. It's the same as 14.10 AB/HR.

by buckeye22fox on Aug 25, 2007 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions

sarcastic?

at least this isnt pittsburgh

by Charlie Scrabbles on Aug 25, 2007 8:01 AM EDT up reply actions

I don't get it.

If Krivsky doesn't exercise Adam Dunn's 2008 option, I'm a Mets fan until they fire him.

by Paul Householder on Aug 25, 2007 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions

Joe Adcock - Milwaukee Braves 1B

never got the props either. Not quite as impressive as many of the guys on the list but more HRs than Klien and Close to Foster. Aaron and Mathews and Spahn and Burdette got all the attention but Adcock while a strong and long lived player is/was fairly ignored.

Career G AB R H
17 years 1,959 6,606 823 1,832

RBI HR AVG. OBP SLG.
1,122 336 .277 .337 .485

Has the game started yet?

by Madville on Aug 25, 2007 1:05 AM EDT reply actions

before my time

Dick Allen is the player whose numbers impressed me the most when he was just a name in print. I couldn't believe he wasn't in the hall of fame. Having studied him I get it now (HUGE asshole, although some would claim it's mitigated by the intense racial pressures he put up with). Bill James has a great chapter in Politics of Glory about him. He comes down very anti-Allen, claiming his locker room trouble-making single-handedly cost the Phillies pennants.

Where have you gone Webb Alert chick?

by Red Menace on Aug 25, 2007 2:43 AM EDT reply actions

wow

how anti-Jamesian

Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on Aug 25, 2007 2:46 AM EDT up reply actions

Yes Richie Allen was a Dick.

Has the game started yet?

by Madville on Aug 25, 2007 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions

Allen

from everything I have read about him I don't think race had anything to do with it. He was just an asshole. Granted an asshole that could hit but still an asshole

Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds

by Caleb on Aug 25, 2007 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions

This is nice and all...

But to rank Adam Dunn ahead of Adam Harang is just crazy.

Harang is close to being the best pitcher in baseball right now. He's 13 and 3 on this crappy team! And he is always matching up against the other team's number one starter. The guy just beat Dontrelle Willis, with a lineup not much better than Slyde's Softball team.

Unfortunately, he never gets any respect nationally. For my money, he's a better pitcher than Carlos Zambrano, but I doubt very much that if he were on the open market, he would get as much money as Zambrano just did.

Forget about Griffey and Dunn, Harang is the reason to watch this team.

What'cha gonna do, Red Reporters, when Brennamania runs wild on you?

by chandrathan on Aug 25, 2007 9:14 AM EDT reply actions

Chuck Klein

Check out the guys 1930 season:

156 games, 648 at bats, 158 runs scored, 250 hits, 59 doubles, 8 triples, 40 home runs, 170 rbi, 54 walks,50 strikeouts .386/ .436 / .687, 159 ops, 445 total bases

I wonder what that season would bring in a new contract today?

Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds

by Caleb on Aug 25, 2007 9:25 AM EDT reply actions

Well, keep in mind....

1930 was an insane year for offense, in the middle of an insane period for offense.

The Phillies (Klein's team) hit over .300 - as a team - with no DH rule. Yet they still managed to lose 102 games, thanks to the fact that they allowed almost 1200 runs.

You think the Reds' pitching stinks? Thank God they don't run Les Sweetland out there every 5 days:

167 IP, 271(!!!) H, 24 HR, 60 BB, 36(!) K, 7.71 ERA.

The team had a 6.71 ERA, and they didn't even have Mike Stanton.

Free Joey Votto!

by ucclark on Aug 25, 2007 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions

it was a crazy year

I wonder why? Rabbit balls? Steroids? All the batters were using corked bats?

Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds

by Caleb on Aug 25, 2007 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions

Corked bats were exposed as a Myth

on the famous TV show 'Mythbusters'. The ball actually travels LESS far when the bat is corked. How about that Mr. Selig.

Has the game started yet?

by Madville on Aug 25, 2007 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions

if i remember correctly

wasnt it that the cork doesnt help? But I tihnk the hole bored through the middle does help quite a bit. So, overall, a bat that's corked is still a little more juiced than a solid bat.

did i remember this right?

Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on Aug 25, 2007 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions

Not so according to a recent episode

of MYTHBUSTERS. Balls hit with bats drilled out with cork did not travel as far a balls hit with a undrilled, corked bat. The experiment was done with almost no variables and the results were pretty conclusive.

Has the game started yet?

by Madville on Aug 25, 2007 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions

not a sc ience guy but

if it didn't help they wouldn't do it

Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds

by Caleb on Aug 25, 2007 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions

Guys do crazy things that don't help...

Some wont' step on the chalk, some won't wash their helmet, some even pee on their hands.

The only real benefit to a corked bat is a psychological one.

What'cha gonna do, Red Reporters, when Brennamania runs wild on you?

by chandrathan on Aug 25, 2007 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions

nice point

Marty may have a shirt on, but Billy Beane just ripped his off and is squeezing his nipples. - Brendan's ukkah

by boobs on Aug 25, 2007 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions

Johnny Mize

put up great numbers, played in a great market with two New York teams. He also missed three seasons due to WWII.

Hey Sabr guys... is there a stat or formula that projects those seasons missed due to military service? Can you imagine what Ted Williams stats would have looked like if he hadn't missed seasons due to WWII and Korea?

Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds

by Caleb on Aug 25, 2007 9:31 AM EDT reply actions

But without Teddy Ballgame...

..we might have lost those wars.

"She rules at the grimace!" ~Cameron Delaney's Daddy

by Fat Vegas Alan on Aug 25, 2007 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions

well we might have lost John Glenn

since Teddy was his wingman

Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds

by Caleb on Aug 25, 2007 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions

Teddy Ballgame

got shot down once. So did John McCain. So did Goose and Maverick.

by buckeye22fox on Aug 25, 2007 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions

Maverick and Goose were NOT shot down

They suffered an engine flameout after flying through Iceman's jetstream. A panel later cleared Lt. Pete Mitchell's record of any wrongdoing.

by Brendanukkah on Aug 25, 2007 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions

Not shot down

they got caught in Iceman's wash and were forced to eject. Maverick was cleared later.

"Two Dunn's enter, but only one Dunn will leave...unless neither do because they decide to play cards, drink beer, golf, and fish."--SlydeFrog

by Man Mountain on Aug 25, 2007 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions

I think that this double post

is the funniest one of all.

Everybody's a jerk. You. Me. This jerk.

by andromache on Aug 25, 2007 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions

I think it's hilarious

'cause it's like they were just absolutely astounded that anyone could possibly think that Mav and Goose were shot down. It was like "OMG, HOW COULD YOU FORGET THAT!?"

"Screw it. We've got bigger problems than a butter shortage."

by Ash on Aug 25, 2007 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions

that's why i'm not flyin for the navy anymore

couldn't pass the top gun trivia portion of t-6 emergency procedures

by buckeye22fox on Aug 25, 2007 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions

There's a better argument to be made

for Mussina than wins and win percentage; it's mitigated by the fact that he played on some very good O's teams in the 90s and has been with a winning Yankees team the last seven years.

He has a career ERA+ of 123 and has only had three seasons in 17 of sub-100 ERA+. His career WHIP is 1.186. His K rates are pretty damn good; he's not as overpowering as a Pedro or Clemens but is a strikeout per nine innings better than Halladay over their respective careers, which surprises me. His walk rates are solid too.

If he doesn't get to 300 wins, I'm not sure what the voters will do with him. Does the Yankee thing help or hurt?

"Two Dunn's enter, but only one Dunn will leave...unless neither do because they decide to play cards, drink beer, golf, and fish."--SlydeFrog

by Man Mountain on Aug 25, 2007 11:44 AM EDT reply actions

It will probably hurt

that they've never won it all since he arrived. He used to be the poster boy for poor run support. I remember many having many debates in the late '90s with people who were sure he just "didn't know how to win."

Where have you gone Webb Alert chick?

by Red Menace on Aug 25, 2007 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions

How About Most Ignored Statistic?

I keep hearing about how there will never be another 300 game winner, or how no one will ever hit 73 homers, etc., etc., but how about career complete games--749 by Cy Young?

by tonywf on Aug 25, 2007 11:49 PM EDT reply actions

Bobby Abreu

He is essentially Edgar Martinez except he actually plays the field!

'Clutch' to me is the epitome of experimenter's bias.

by TheDude @ Red Reporter on Aug 26, 2007 11:08 PM EDT reply actions

If you put Dunn on that list

Thome and Juan Gon should be on there

Killebrew should def be on there as well

"Macrono?" -Jeff Brantley

by Zach K on Aug 27, 2007 9:03 PM EDT reply actions

Juan Gone won an MVP

and was also a ninny.

by Brendanukkah on Aug 27, 2007 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions

agreed

Juan Gone was the overrated poster boy for "Count da RBIzz baby!" Also he won two MVPs.

Where have you gone Webb Alert chick?

by Red Menace on Aug 27, 2007 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions

Pfft

He did have a . career .295/.343/.561, 15th all time with AB/HR and 20th all time with Slugging! In the 90s he was one of the better power hitters up there with Frank Thomas, Mark McGuire and Sosa.

"Macrono?" -Jeff Brantley

by Zach K on Aug 27, 2007 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions

He was without a doubt an excellent hitter

My memories of 90's barstool baseball talk (though I was too young to go to bars) are of arguments with idiots who claimed Juan was the best player in the game (I would back Griffey, even smarter people stood with Bonds). Their arguments hung entirely on his high RBI totals, and later his MVPs resulting from those RBI (and how can anyone with 2 MVP awards be ignored or underrated?). Back then we didn't think much about park factors or positional adjustments. Now it's much easier to make the case against Juan, which is why his Hall of Fame chances look slight.

Here's the top two vote-getters for the '96 AL MVP:
AVG OBP SLG OPS+ HR RBI R SB JG .314 .368 .643 150 47 144 89 2 #2 .358 .414 .631 160 36 123 141 15

Pretty darn close, until you consider that the #2 fellow played shortstop--it was a young A-Rod. Juan Gone won by 3 points. I can't remember who, but some writer put A-Rod way down on his list because "players who bat second don't win MVPs" (paraphrasing). It's kind of funny how that early in his career baseball writers had decided they didn't like A-Rod.

Where have you gone Webb Alert chick?

by Red Menace on Aug 27, 2007 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions

ahh ok

Yeah I am/was a Juan Gone fan, he was a solid player back in his day.

They need to determine a new way for MVP voting in baseball and ALL sports. The fact that sports writers like Doc and other morons like him get a say who is the best player in baseball is a joke.

"Macrono?" -Jeff Brantley

by Zach K on Aug 28, 2007 5:09 AM EDT up reply actions