Jay Bruce to take his cues from Adam Dunn?
The spillover/collateral damage of Adam Dunn....
When Jay Bruce arrives on the scene do you want Adam Dunn to be the one to take Bruce "under his wing"? Do you want Jay Bruce to take his cues from Dunn?
When they arrive in Sarasota next spring do you want Jay Bruce to join Dunn for a couple rounds of golf on Sundays? Go fishing down at Siesta Key? Toss down beers and talk Texas at the Dacquiri Deck? Is this what will serve Jay Bruce best in his development as a BASEBALL PLAYER??
Yes, these things don't show up in an OPS or RC number but they show up in the standings.
Will Adam Dunn tell Bruce stories of how when he first came up to the majors he had trouble with strikeouts, fielding, hitting the better pitchers, over-eating but through HARD WORK, focused off season drills, winter ball, treadmill he transformed himself into a more rounded, versatile baseball player?? Through a committment to doing whatever it takes he overcame those obstacles? Ummmm no, don't think any of those stories will be coming out of Dunn's mouth.......................
For years now the individual players on this team have NOT had a "whatever it takes" attitude and the team as a whole hasn't either. When you look to what is the root source for the collective attitude of a team look no further than the team's most charismatic, visible, influential, powerful players........in the Reds case, look to Adam Dunn.
Sure the bullpen blows but it is the everyday players that more times than not are the source of the personality of a TEAM. If you're just looking at Dunn's numbers this year and thinking maybe he's worth 13M? Then you're not looking into this broadly enough..................
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Yay!!!
by chandrathan on Jul 25, 2007 10:33 AM EDT reply actions
She will!
by chandrathan on Jul 25, 2007 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Michael...
by chandrathan on Jul 25, 2007 10:36 AM EDT reply actions
haha Whats sad is a I don't understand this...
Zach you are a cool guy that takes things in
You get picked on more than you should, but you take it well.
Michael on the other hand is not that way.
by chandrathan on Jul 25, 2007 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Thanks THan
The Legend of Michael Grows...
by chandrathan on Jul 25, 2007 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
seriously!
by chandrathan on Jul 25, 2007 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Nope
So this is Michael eh
Strong Cat!
by chandrathan on Jul 25, 2007 10:43 AM EDT reply actions
re:
Yes, I exist. I drink at the Siesta Key Dacquiri deck (on occasion).
I was there in sarasota to watch EE's first spring training and I immediately evaluated "hmmm.... doesn't look that exceptional to me in any facet?"....."I think he is being overrated..?".....
scene from spring training '08
fin
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jul 25, 2007 10:44 AM EDT reply actions
Adam Dunn destroys this team!
by chandrathan on Jul 25, 2007 10:45 AM EDT reply actions
two Adam Dunns?
i think cartoon hearts just started pouring out of my eyes.
Jay Bruce
by chandrathan on Jul 25, 2007 10:48 AM EDT reply actions
Adam Dunn
by chandrathan on Jul 25, 2007 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
re: zach
In today's game a pitching ERA of 4.00 isn't all that different from a 3.00 ERA of previous eras. This is a run scoring era and Dunn requires a full 160+ games/yr of playing time to get his bare minimum benchmarks.
Yes, 40/100 is an achievement.... grandiose? all important?? nah............
Dude Adam Dunn is not the reason the reds suck
- Bad GM
- Bullpen
- No proven starter after Harang and Arroyo
Benchmarks for who?
by Brendanukkah on Jul 25, 2007 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
He is risen!
There's been some idle speculation among Reds prospectors wondering how Reds fans will take to Bruce when they realize he strikes out a lot. This is a brilliant solution: because Adam Dunn made him that way. It all fits together like a watch.
When it comes to Dunn haters Michael r top dog
by chandrathan on Jul 25, 2007 10:51 AM EDT reply actions
Austin City Limits
Dunn tossing out c notes to the occasional peddler, posing for photos, kissing hotties in T-Backs and signing private parts.
Young Jay thinking this is even better than Friday nights back at the old resevoir dump site.
Tell me how Adam. Take me under your wing.
OK this guy isn't real...
Well, if Jay can resist the temptation
by Brendanukkah on Jul 25, 2007 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Also...
by Brendanukkah on Jul 25, 2007 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
crap
I'm going back down to my mom's basement.
Slyde's back too?
by chandrathan on Jul 25, 2007 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
re: Adam's year
and yes, the bullpen blows and if one single culprit needs to be held accountable then yes the bullpen is the number one cause of this year's record.
However, look to the past 7 years young zach. Look to the recurrent problems. Look to what hasn't changed. Look to this team's style of play even through the brief periods where Danny Graves (mystery of the universe) was a shutdown reliever.
Think large young zach. Look beyond the box score.
Just cuz you're crazy
by Brendanukkah on Jul 25, 2007 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Graves was a shutdown reliever?
Who was the guy to set up a shitty bullpen and
I can't look beyond the box score, Brendans mom won't let me!
Michael...
by chandrathan on Jul 25, 2007 10:59 AM EDT reply actions
This is the truth.
by chandrathan on Jul 25, 2007 11:00 AM EDT reply actions
This isn't a problem for Tribbles
by chandrathan on Jul 25, 2007 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Zach...Don't be tempted by the dark side!
by chandrathan on Jul 25, 2007 11:14 AM EDT reply actions
Pic for international Talk like a Pirate day!
by chandrathan on Jul 25, 2007 11:17 AM EDT reply actions
Where is Mini Michael?
by chandrathan on Jul 25, 2007 11:25 AM EDT reply actions
No need for that.
Welcome back, Michael.
by Paul Householder on Jul 25, 2007 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Michael has to love the seriousness with which

by chandrathan on Jul 25, 2007 11:29 AM EDT reply actions
Yea! Micheal's back!
Adam Dunn, his entire career, has been one thing, and one thing only: A guy who gets on base (he's been in the top 10 in the league in times on base 3 times) and, when he hits the ball, hits it hard (this is the third year he's been in the top 10 in XBH). He's never hit for average (one year he hit .266); no one's ever nominated him for a gold glove; one year he stole 19 bases (but was thrown out 9 times, which isn't a good percentage).
Yet, year in and year out (other than last year), he's been one of the top run producers in the league. And guess what? When he's hit well, the Reds have scored alot of runs - in his 3 best hitting years, the Reds have been 1st, 7th, and 10th in scoring (how did that '04 team not score runs???); in his 3 worst years, the team was 9th, 9th, and 13th. So with one exception, his production has mirrored the offense's.
More importantly, while you dismiss it, the pitching has been the problem throughout the new century, not Adam Dunn. This will be the 7th consecutive year the Reds have been 10th or worse in runs allowed; 6 of those they've been 13th or worse; 4 they've been one of the 2 worst.
But you don't want to hear that. You want to hear that the team lacks "savvy"; that Dunn sucks because he doesn't "run out to his position". Teams don't have savvy; they score runs. And Adam Dunn does more to help this team score runs, year in and year out, than anyone else (and than the vast majority of players in the majors).
IT's true
VERY EXTREME-Michael
EXTREME- Shortstop
DISLIKE-Me
He is not the only one on this team who strikes out either.
I can't understand why anyone would NOT
CTrent would marry Adam.
dissing on Dunn
low batting average - BA's usefulness lies in the extremes. It doesn't tell us much of anything to separate a .290 batter from a .270 one, but it's very hard to be a .320 hitter and not be good. And it's very hard to be for a .230 hitter and to be successful--but it can happen. Adam Dunn is one and he flies in the face of the most enduring shorthand method of player evaluation.
high OBP - Traditionally not appreciated.
high strikeouts - They stick in your mind and really bug people. Despite the fact that Dunn doesn't make many outs he makes them in this bothersome, though not problematic way.
seemingly lackadaisical attitude - Historically players like this get dumped on (many times there are racial issues which aren't present here). This is exacerbated in the town that still lives under the cult of Charlie Hustle.
fans of bad teams blame their best player - It's an 'old' Bill James maxim. He should be better, not all the replacement level scrubs on the roster.
one dimensional player - Speaking of James this has been on my mind. I think it was in Politics of Glory where he suggested that players who can do many things well are not as appreciated as players who have one strong skill. He was talking about third basemen in the hall of fame where the great offensive players (Eddie Mathews) are enshrined, the great defenders (Brooks Robinson) are enshrined, but the great all around player who didn't excel in one facet is left out (Ron Santo).
Anyways I've been thinking that maybe the opposite is more often the case now. Lately there's been a strange fetishization of players who don't really do anything bad, but aren't good at anything (David Eckstein is exhibit A). Just a theory but I think this trend is working against Dunn.
Anyway it's no surprise to me that he's disliked by many. Factor in that the Reds haven't won with him and the general lack of understanding that C does not = C and there you have it.
Menace--lets cyber make out
I have two officemates, both baseball "fans"--one Asstros, one Cards. The Cardsfan loves her some Eckstein. And here's the thing--I hate knocking Eckstein. The dude is tiny and is an OK major leaguer. Seriously, at his size and athleticism, he's a freak and should be applauded. BUT he is not a great major leaguer, MVP, 'the one guy you hate to see up", etc. The fact that he's a as good as he is (which isn't great) is a testament to his ability, but he is not great. Just because he beat the odds doesn't mean he's great. It just doesn't. We should applaud him, but Rolen was the Cards MVP of the last World Series, not Eckstein.
Eckstein was the average fan's (read: media type) surrogate in last year's playoffs, BUT HE IS NOT AS GOOD AS 20 of the other players in that World Series. Seriously, I know the copy writes itself with Eckstein and Marcus Thames and etc, but they actually aren't as important to their team's success because they sortof shouldn't have made it to the majors in the first place.
It's so simple. They extraordinary for their size, but they aren't overwhelming players on their own teams. C'mon. they just aren't and they don't do anything particularly well.
by Man Mountain on Jul 26, 2007 2:24 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not saying Dunn is a bad player!
How do you know how hard
Dunn isn't stellar defensively and he strikes out a lot. It may be that he could become a better player, but maybe not. All we can do as fans is judge what he does on the field and what he does on the field is quite good all in all.
by Man Mountain on Jul 26, 2007 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm sorry I thought I said it in my post but
re:
I never liked the "reply to this" ??.. Or maybe I have my "options" set wrong?.. How do you know where/when a reply to a given comment has been made? you have to scroll up and search?....
seems more readable to just post everything in linear fashion? We who can discern the relative importance of solo homeruns, two out bases empty walks, dead red dead pull right handed hitters etc..can also piece together which comments apply to which posts.
Thanks Gray...
by chandrathan on Jul 25, 2007 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Here ya go...
by chandrathan on Jul 25, 2007 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
re:
The pleasure is all yours
by Brendanukkah on Jul 25, 2007 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
This one's for Cory Hart
by chandrathan on Jul 25, 2007 11:43 AM EDT reply actions
re: sid
The idea that some American League team will ultimately end up with Adam Dunn at which point he will begin a hall of fame career as a DH is MYTH. And I will tell you why.
As a GM, the first things you will look at as you sort through the Adam Dunn fact sheet are:
-~195 Ks per year
-~.219 lifetime BA with RISP
-~.250 lifetime BA
-salary somewhere in the 10-15 million/yr
You won't go any futher as a GM. You will say "Next". You won't even make it to the ~40 HRs/year or what .380 OBP?? you won't even get that far.
As a GM, you'll know intuitively that you can do better for your TEAM with a platoon or by giving some young player opportunity. You won't want to get married to having to play him every night as a DH with that type of production.
Oakland and Boston have already effectively "passed" on Dunn (guillen trade and WMP trade)... other A.L. teams will as well.
NO not all GMs
age:40
Is on the downside of career: yes
Is he an Ex-Twin: Yes
so if Dunn hits 550 - 600+ hrs for his career
I'm pretty sure sid never mentioned the AL
You don't like Dunn? Fine. You don't think we can win with him? Fine, it's a plausible point. But please acknowledge that there are other things that are holding this club back besides Dunn. We are not magically rocketing to the World Series if we trade or cut him. Your horse is dead, mister. Beating it isn't helping anything. Try whipping on that ass in the bullpen.
by Brendanukkah on Jul 25, 2007 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
missed this earlier
This is a stated published fact? I would have guessed that the Reds didn't offer, or waived off including Dunn as a part of those deals. Instead the Reds dumped two underachieving head cases
Facts are overrated
God damn - ABSOLUTELY
Too bad there's no more Eric Milton...
by chandrathan on Jul 25, 2007 11:51 AM EDT reply actions
I would call this a dogpile
by Paul Householder on Jul 25, 2007 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
I see Michael is still good
Has Geki met Micheal?
This will happen when Geki meets Michael
by chandrathan on Jul 25, 2007 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
yep
hahaha thank you
This picture is Over the Top!
by chandrathan on Jul 25, 2007 12:07 PM EDT reply actions
Don't Blame Me
-You can't hit him at top of order to take advantage of OBP because of his Ks, lack of bat control/situational skills, steadily decreasing speed/agility....
-You can't hit him in 3/4/5 power slots because of Ks, ~.219 BA with RISP, ~.250 BA
-if you hit him 6th, 7th it's tough to justify 10-15M/year especially if you're not a top salary budget team and a guy who can't field (or even harder to justify your DH).....
- - - - - -
It's not dumb luck that Dunn hasn't been traded to Oakland, LA, Boston etc... in recent years. The moneyballers would no doubt view Dunn as an "interesting" player and a "wow....too bad..." kind of player...but when push comes to shove they no doubt pass.
Only in Cincinnati has this donkey been able to survive and even flourish (relatively speaking). It is a little sad, pathetic.... discouraging....and baffling.
Alas, noone can hide forever from natural selection not even the donkey Dunn. It is Dunn who resisted evolution, was unwilling or unable to adjust to survive. Don't blame me.
How can you make the leap that Dunn
Dunn is what he is. SHow me a team that has all 5 tool palyers? Would the Reds of the 70's been great with just Rose? or Bench? Of course not. It takes a lot of guys doing things well. Look at Bench, his offense was usually just ok, he had some great years but his average wasn't great. His defense was stellar but with out Rose and Morgan and Perez and Davey they would have been average at best. The game has evolved, the money has evolved. And why do we get so wrapped up in what someone is making? It is a fantasy world of Monopoly money for most of us. And the argument that we could have 2-3 young guys for the same price is weak. With that in mind we just keep turning over the line up every 5-6 years with nothing to show for it except an occasional playoff team or playoff run. We could be the New Millenium Expos. Oh wait that would be the A's
Don't fight with michael..
by chandrathan on Jul 25, 2007 1:15 PM EDT reply actions
re: leap
You can tell immediately watching Dunn the natural leadership abilities he has within the context of an athletic team. Remember Dunn played quarterback in his gridiron days not defensive end, not guard, not tight end etc.....
Dunn is clearly likable, personable, talented athlete, confident, comes from successful family...etc..etc.. all these things lead to natural leadership abilities.
The problem is you can have quality/effective/winning leadership or lousy/losing/just get by leadership. In a baseball context Dunn's influence is the latter. It's painfully obvious to see and you don't even need a boxscore/stat sheet.
If your leaders are strongly focused, committed, smart, do the things "the right way", are fundamentally sound well then you have the makings for a great situation for your team.
If your leaders on the other hand (in a broad sense) just rely on their natural abilities and just do what is necessary to get by and make their millions then........... you have the present day reds.
Leadership
by Brendanukkah on Jul 25, 2007 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
i never bought the idea
and who says dunn needs to be a leader, if such things exist? isnt that why we have old men like stanton, weathers, conine, hatteberg, griffey, etc?
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jul 25, 2007 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Just playing devil's advocate here....
by Fat Vegas Alan on Jul 25, 2007 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
re:
Narron: "Freelie", "Hopps", "Dunners"...etc..etc.... pro sports teams may be grown men but as a group the same schoolyard rules/customs apply...
And there would be some strong-minded to their convictions individuals but also many personalities looking for and needing stronger personalities to get their cues from...........
Surviving is about adjusting and when unsure you'd look to piers... the most confident/influential/cool and probably richest ones...........
re;
"might have meant"?
We've got one of those, don't we Slyde?
by Fat Vegas Alan on Jul 25, 2007 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
To quote Jeffrey Lebowski
by Brendanukkah on Jul 25, 2007 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Please
by TheDude @ Red Reporter on Jul 25, 2007 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you abide?
by BK on Jul 25, 2007 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I believe
by Man Mountain on Jul 25, 2007 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
so you dont like dunn
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jul 25, 2007 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
re
And by "teams" you mean...

"TO THE DONKEY SHOW!!!"
by Fat Vegas Alan on Jul 25, 2007 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Charlie? like Charlie Parker?
by Charlie Scrabbles on Jul 25, 2007 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
re: DJ Kyle
Do we need Man Mountain to arbitrate this bet?
by Fat Vegas Alan on Jul 25, 2007 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
re:
dj kyle does sound real cool and hip for sure tho
"may have been"?
by Fat Vegas Alan on Jul 25, 2007 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Can't afford it

Can somebody build that guy a bridge?
by Fat Vegas Alan on Jul 25, 2007 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
That guy, there
Dude
Who would you rather have in left field? Freel? Hopper? Dewaye Wise? I sure would love to see them and their combined 18 RBIs in the lineup everyday, along with their horrific OBP around .300 . (Dunn's a career .378). I bet we would win a whole bunch of games with the inability to get on base or driive in runs.
Take my advice. Educate yourself. There are resources on this website. Learn how to read stats. And if someone disagrees, don't argue like a 4th grader. Accept their postion and agree to disagree and move on. Don't keep bringing it up over and over. Just grow up some.
Come "Find Me" Michael
What a douche.
Cool God, Why is Micheal on such a mission to...
Linear Posting Michael:
The idea that some American League team will ultimately end up with Adam Dunn at which point he will begin a hall of fame career as a DH is MYTH. If Dunn has a HOF career, it's already started. I don't think he'll be a HOFer, but if he is, the foundation has been set.
As a GM, the first things you will look at as you sort through the Adam Dunn fact sheet are:
-~195 Ks per year
-~.219 lifetime BA with RISP
-~.250 lifetime BA
-salary somewhere in the 10-15 million/yr
If those are the first things you look at, you're a bigger idiot than people assume; you'd certainly be too stupid to be a GM of a major league team.
The first thing you'd look at is that Dunn is only 27 years old, and is entering the best part of his career, if history is to be believed.
Next, you'd see a guy who gets on base 38% of the time, 23rd among active players, meaning you have at most one guy on the team who's going to make fewer outs than him. And if you knew anything at all about baseball, you'd know that outs are the most precious thing there is, and that not making outs is the most important thing you can do.
You'd see that he hits .220 with RISP because he's walked so much; in 23.8% of PA vs. 13.9% when no runner is in scoring position. You'd also see he puts the ball in play more often (which no one talks about): 74.2% vs. 72.6%.
You'd also see that when he does hit the ball, he hits it hard. This will be the 4th year in a row that he's hit more than 40 HRs. Other players who've hit 40+ each of the past 3 years:
1. Albert Pujols
Finally, you'd look at your current DH. The only team who has a better hitter at DH is Boston (before you say "Cleveland", look at Hafner's stats this year). You'd also see that Ortiz and Hafner are much older than Dunn.
You won't go any futher as a GM. You will say "Next". You won't even make it to the ~40 HRs/year or what .380 OBP?? you won't even get that far. As I said, if you passed before looking at those two things, you'd lose your job.
As a GM, you'll know intuitively that you can do better for your TEAM with a platoon or by giving some young player opportunity. Name two players who'll be available after the year who, if platooned, would equal Dunn's production. You can't.
You won't want to get married to having to play him every night as a DH with that type of production. As I stated, he's a better hitter than almost every DH in the league; why wouldn't you want to?
Oakland and Boston have already effectively "passed" on Dunn (guillen trade and WMP trade)... other A.L. teams will as well. As someone said earlier, how do you know this? How do you know Dunn was offered to either team? Bowden would have been run out of town if they'd offered Dunn for Harang, and rightly so. Arroyo was merely an average pitcher (much like this year); again, Krivsky would have been run out of town.
haha...
It is a good day. Let me hit the FM dial and crank up some tunes. Brain cells love loud music.
re: sid
BTW...
I'm beginning to think that we won't get much if anything for Lohse and we won't get much if anything for Hatteberg and we won't get anything for Weathers because Wayne won't trade him and we might get a lil' sumpin for Edwin because Wayne will think, "Well, I guess I gotta do something."
Close
I hope we get something for Lohse; Hatteberg should bring a decent prospect; Weathers should bring a good return simply because he's superficially effective.
I'm ascared EdE will be dumped for a bucket of balls. Or Royce Clayton.
Do we know where Michael's cat is?
WOW
by TheDude @ Red Reporter on Jul 25, 2007 2:06 PM EDT reply actions
michael does not help hangovers
So that WAS you at the Dacquiri Deck last night!
by Fat Vegas Alan on Jul 25, 2007 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Is that Zach Braff?
You just lost your right..
Is what you just did.
by Fat Vegas Alan on Jul 25, 2007 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I like you, Michael.
Awse
by DevilsAdvocate on Jul 25, 2007 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow, Michael. With just one diary...
by Fat Vegas Alan on Jul 25, 2007 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
by michael's logic...
howard does have better stats, but i think the comparison is not far off. i just wonder what michael's cutoff line is for suckitude.
Actually Ryan Howard
Michael's cut-off line
EdE
Kearns
People who like any of the above
Happy people
The French
------ cutoff line ------
everybody else
It's a point worth mentioning
by Man Mountain on Jul 25, 2007 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Probably the most overlooked part about him.
I'm concered about that
Dibs!
by Fat Vegas Alan on Jul 25, 2007 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions
ok the 9 key is right next to the zero...
Okay. I'll ease off since..
But boobs might not give ya the mulligan.
by Fat Vegas Alan on Jul 25, 2007 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Can I put forward a motion
It's actually more annoying at this point than Michael's fatuous Dunn argument.
I'm probably the wrong person...
Meh-ow.
by Fat Vegas Alan on Jul 25, 2007 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I'z in ur sitcoms
Jumpin ur sharks.
Now, that guy I love!
Damn you, Slyde! Daaaaaaaaaaaaaamn Yooooooou!
by Fat Vegas Alan on Jul 25, 2007 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
It is Dunn's fault
Just like the Colorado Rockies franchise should blame Larry Walker and Todd Helton.
Or the Royals of the past 10 years should blame Mike Sweeney.
by omnired on Jul 25, 2007 5:21 PM EDT reply actions
Dunn and Bruce
So, no. I would not mind Adam Dunn mentoring Jay Bruce.
Hey, Michael
Now that you're here, you can get back to answering those multiple choice questions I gave you almost six months ago. There's only 5 of them, so I figure at just over a month each, you should have extremely enlightening answers for us.
http://www.redreporter.com/comments/2006/8/31/22388/9352/66#66
Dayn Perry on Dunn
3. Adam Dunn, 1B/OF, Reds
The Reds focus too much on what Dunn can't do -- hit for average and make consistent contact -- and fail to recognize what he can do -- get on base and hit home runs. Savvier organizations know this, and that's why Dunn's a good bet to be moved. He's a bit like Teixeira without the defense, and he'd help out teams like the Angels, Twins and Mariners, who all need more pop from their DHs
by pw on Jul 26, 2007 12:43 PM EDT reply actions
Wayne Krivsky lacks "savvy."
by Paul Householder on Jul 26, 2007 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions

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